silic0ntoad Posted September 24, 2009 Posted September 24, 2009 Wow. I missed THIS one. No wonder some people are PO'd. There's a difference between being completely rude and being honest, which, unfortunately, this guy lacks. I agree though donna, my stance is the same as yours. While I personally wouldnt date a bigger girl, if I dated a girl who started to become bigger and would do nothing about it, then I'd kick her to the curb.
Isolde Posted September 24, 2009 Posted September 24, 2009 I'm still waiting to hear what the girl's height is. 150 isn't a big deal if you're 5'7 or more.
donnamaybe Posted September 24, 2009 Posted September 24, 2009 There's a difference between being completely rude and being honest, which, unfortunately, this guy lacks. I agree though donna, my stance is the same as yours. While I personally wouldnt date a bigger girl, if I dated a girl who started to become bigger and would do nothing about it, then I'd kick her to the curb. You know, I personally fluctuate in weight. I am 5'5" and go between a size 4 to a size 8 at times (winters can really SUCK here! ). But I NEVER get to "the point of no return" where it would be nearly impossible to lose the weight. I think the OP is afraid that if his gal doesn't do something to address whatever is going on, she may just continue to get bigger and bigger. I can empathize with that.
Sam Spade Posted September 24, 2009 Posted September 24, 2009 There's a difference between being completely rude and being honest, which, unfortunately, this guy lacks. I agree though donna, my stance is the same as yours. While I personally wouldnt date a bigger girl, if I dated a girl who started to become bigger and would do nothing about it, then I'd kick her to the curb. Yes, there is an obvious difference, and I cross that line every time when a genious with a hidden agenda misrepresents my originally tame and sensible positions and attacks me accordingly .
silic0ntoad Posted September 24, 2009 Posted September 24, 2009 Yes, there is an obvious difference, and I cross that line every time when a genious with a hidden agenda misrepresents my originally tame and sensible positions and attacks me accordingly . Understood, Captain! You know, I personally fluctuate in weight. I am 5'5" and go between a size 4 to a size 8 at times (winters can really SUCK here! ). But I NEVER get to "the point of no return" where it would be nearly impossible to lose the weight. I think the OP is afraid that if his gal doesn't do something to address whatever is going on, she may just continue to get bigger and bigger. I can empathize with that. Size 4-8? That's fine. You can come visit me any time
Sam Spade Posted September 24, 2009 Posted September 24, 2009 You know, I personally fluctuate in weight. I am 5'5" and go between a size 4 to a size 8 at times (winters can really SUCK here! ). But I NEVER get to "the point of no return" where it would be nearly impossible to lose the weight. I think the OP is afraid that if his gal doesn't do something to address whatever is going on, she may just continue to get bigger and bigger. I can empathize with that. THAT is the gist of men's anxieties, not not being a copy of whatever bony celebrity is being peddled at the moment, the prosecution's arguments notwithstanding . In fact, all of the girls I've liked lately have had some apparent softness here and there, and that's A-OK, since they've all looked happy, healthy, and energetic. My own beautiful gf has a couple of extra pounds, and I would'nt care if she loses them, because she eats healthy and excercises, plus it's more fun and feminine to have some softness anyway. this doesn't mean that i'll not pay attention if she starts to expand, which is only fair given that she expects me to take care of myself too.
Isolde Posted September 24, 2009 Posted September 24, 2009 Why do men think women don't understand the importance of visuals? We might be marginally less visual on average than men, but don't think that we wouldn't be turned off if our SO's acquired a sizable beer belly. I have never understood how some women put up with poor grooming, either, for that matter. Gross.
Thaddeus Posted September 24, 2009 Posted September 24, 2009 This is how it works, for those youngsters among us who haven't yet got this nailed down yet: If a man has preferences in the women he's attracted to, whether it's about body shape or hair color or ambition or anything else, he's shallow. And if she changes during the time she's been with him, it's his fault. If a woman has preferences in men, whether it's about body shape or hair color or ambition or anything else, she has standards and is encouraged not to change them for anybody since that would be "settling." And if he changes during the time he's with her, it's his fault. Get it?
Hkizzle Posted September 25, 2009 Posted September 25, 2009 That is total BS. People are definitely not born with the same genes, and they definitely don't end up developing the same preferences. There are and have been societies where fat = attractive. Those preferences aren't necessarily biological. You don't have any evidence to prove that 'skinny = good' is encoded in genes and that every single human being shares that preference because of genetics. That's totally false. You're not "reporting the science" at all. WTF you talking about? Go learn some evolitionary and genetic theory first, and if you are going to refute what I said, break down the arguement, don't just say it's wrong. 1) Of course there's mutation and father and child have different genes. But human civilisation is only 10,000 years. That's 500 generations and is not enough to make human beings very different from cavemen. 2) The male preference for the 1.4 hip to weight ratio is so well researched. Go look it up.......... Are you a creationist? Tell me now and I will stop talking to you.
Hkizzle Posted September 25, 2009 Posted September 25, 2009 This is how it works, for those youngsters among us who haven't yet got this nailed down yet: If a man has preferences in the women he's attracted to, whether it's about body shape or hair color or ambition or anything else, he's shallow. And if she changes during the time she's been with him, it's his fault. If a woman has preferences in men, whether it's about body shape or hair color or ambition or anything else, she has standards and is encouraged not to change them for anybody since that would be "settling." And if he changes during the time he's with her, it's his fault. Get it? My point as well. If there was a story about "My boyfriend used to be the coolest guy, but now he's a boring idiot, and he's been like this for 2 years " all the girls will say leave him. Simply because the personality matters more for women. If women were naturally as visual as men they wouldn't find all this shallow. It's like a dog telling a horse it's wrong for eating grass. But wtf, become a horse, then talk!
sweetjasmine Posted September 25, 2009 Posted September 25, 2009 Go learn some evolitionary and genetic theory first, I already have, thank you. 2) The male preference for the 1.4 hip to weight ratio is so well researched. Go look it up.......... Hip : waist is well-researched, but that doesn't lead to the conclusion that we're hard-wired to think that skinny is beautiful and fat is ugly. The reason why the OP doesn't find his gf attractive isn't because of his genes. It's because of his preferences which were heavily influenced by culture/society. There's nothing wrong with his preferences. I'm just objecting to the suggestion that his preferences are universal and determined by genetics. Are you a creationist? Tell me now and I will stop talking to you. LOL. I was thiiiiis close to choosing evolutionary biology as my field. I'm definitely not a creationist. Simply because the personality matters more for women. If women were naturally as visual as men they wouldn't find all this shallow. It is shallow - just as preferring taller guys to shorter guys is shallow. But there's nothing wrong with it. People have preferences, and they should go look for what they want. And I find it a little offensive that you're saying "personality matters more for women" since you seem to be suggesting that all men think looks are more important than personality. I've met plenty of men who think personality matters more than looks, and I've met some women who think that looks are more important than personality.
Hkizzle Posted September 25, 2009 Posted September 25, 2009 Hip : waist is well-researched, but that doesn't lead to the conclusion that we're hard-wired to think that skinny is beautiful and fat is ugly. Good luck getting good grades on your course. It's a well researched subject. No one ever stuck a poster in my face and socially forced me to like the 1.4 But men have liked it since the research has been done, and it also coincides with the ratio that is the most fertile. Coincidence or a genetic advantage and thus preference in mate selection? The reason why the OP doesn't find his gf attractive isn't because of his genes. It's because of his preferences which were heavily influenced by culture/society. There's nothing wrong with his preferences. I'm just objecting to the suggestion that his preferences are universal and determined by genetics. I wasn't refering to the OP by that point. This thread has gone on for a long time, by which time the discussion had moved on to men and women in general. LOL. I was thiiiiis close to choosing evolutionary biology as my field. I'm definitely not a creationist. Good luck getting good grades.........you get a F from me though. It is shallow - just as preferring taller guys to shorter guys is shallow. But there's nothing wrong with it. People have preferences, and they should go look for what they want. And I find it a little offensive that you're saying "personality matters more for women" since you seem to be suggesting that all men think looks are more important than personality. I've met plenty of men who think personality matters more than looks, and I've met some women who think that looks are more important than personality. You never heard of the term RELATIVE? Like men relative to women will put MORE importance on looks? Also, if you find the exception to the rulle, I've found SOME women who think looks are more important and say well that refutes the rule, then you're going to fail friggin science class.
Hkizzle Posted September 25, 2009 Posted September 25, 2009 Another thing, I never said personality doesn't matter to men. I just said LOOKS MATTER. Wow.......... Hey and if you start getting all worked up about what's right and what's wrong. Do not talke evolutionary science, it'll drive you insane because you'll find out humans are selfish animals, and half their primal drives are totally immoral. This is the very reason we need to TEACH morality to human beings, we teach kids to be better from a very young age. Don't teach morality in the right way and a guy will easily become a very undesirable person. Good look picking your course. You're going to hate it.
sweetjasmine Posted September 25, 2009 Posted September 25, 2009 Good luck getting good grades on your course. It's a well researched subject. No one ever stuck a poster in my face and socially forced me to like the 1.4 But men have liked it since the research has been done, and it also coincides with the ratio that is the most fertile. Coincidence or a genetic advantage and thus preference in mate selection? I don't think you got what I said. I said that the hip to waist ratio doesn't mean that skinny is attractive and fat isn't. The ratio can be maintained for various height/weight ratios, and the number itself varies across cultures. It can be anywhere from 0.6 to 0.9. Studies have shown that men haven't evolved to find a specific body-type attractive but rather have evolved to find whatever type is associated with wealth and status as attractive. That's why in famine-stricken areas big women are seen as sexy, whereas in rich first world countries, thin women are seen as more attractive. You never heard of the term RELATIVE? Like men relative to women will put MORE importance on looks? Also, if you find the exception to the rulle, I've found SOME women who think looks are more important and say well that refutes the rule, then you're going to fail friggin science class. I just think generalizations about both genders are sloppy, and too much of "men are X, and women are Y" is harmful.
sweetjasmine Posted September 25, 2009 Posted September 25, 2009 Another thing, I never said personality doesn't matter to men. I just said LOOKS MATTER. Wow.......... I didn't say you said that. Wow indeed. Hey and if you start getting all worked up about what's right and what's wrong. Where'd I get all worked up about what's right and what's wrong, in terms of morality? Do not talke evolutionary science, it'll drive you insane because you'll find out humans are selfish animals, and half their primal drives are totally immoral. I already have studied it, and it didn't drive me insane. I enjoyed it. Good look picking your course. You're going to hate it. Why do you keep talking about me picking courses? I'm not "picking courses".
Hkizzle Posted September 25, 2009 Posted September 25, 2009 I don't think you got what I said. I said that the hip to waist ratio doesn't mean that skinny is attractive and fat isn't. The ratio can be maintained for various height/weight ratios, and the number itself varies across cultures. It can be anywhere from 0.6 to 0.9. Studies have shown that men haven't evolved to find a specific body-type attractive but rather have evolved to find whatever type is associated with wealth and status as attractive. That's why in famine-stricken areas big women are seen as sexy, whereas in rich first world countries, thin women are seen as more attractive. I just think generalizations about both genders are sloppy, and too much of "men are X, and women are Y" is harmful. WTF you mean it varies with height or across cultures? That just shows you know nothing about the subject. The 1.4 is interesting specifically BECAUSE it's the same across cultures. Just like symmetry in facial features is appealing across cultures. You second paragraph is total BS and you're going to fail when you take the course. The desire to find a fat person in a poor place is HIGHER REASONING, it's called using your brain, it's not to do with genetic driven primal drive. If I was starving to death in a place of course I want to cling on to someone that can give me some food. Your lack of knowledge when it comes to the difference between genetically driven primal DRIVES and HIGHER REASONING is astounding.
Hkizzle Posted September 25, 2009 Posted September 25, 2009 Where'd I get all worked up about what's right and what's wrong, in terms of morality? ". If you've studied evolutionary biology or psychology already at university and have your current views, then you're lying because you couldn't have passed with your views. btw, if you didnt' study it, or not planning to take it how you "pick it as your field?" As for getting worked up. You've used the term "I find it offensive" many times.
Hkizzle Posted September 25, 2009 Posted September 25, 2009 I want sources from the both of you I hate digging out sources since most studies are not publicly avilable on the internet. So you need to spend hours digging it out or you can't find it and the other person uses it to discredit you. There are plenty of books on the subject from The Red Queen: sex and the evolution of human nature to Sperm wars, and even the selfish gene which is written by the famour Richard Dawkins/ explains many theories that apply to humans.
Pink Cupcakes Posted September 25, 2009 Posted September 25, 2009 How tall is she? Is she truly fat or just not skinny?
northstar1 Posted September 25, 2009 Posted September 25, 2009 WTF you mean it varies with height or across cultures? That just shows you know nothing about the subject. The 1.4 is interesting specifically BECAUSE it's the same across cultures. Just like symmetry in facial features is appealing across cultures. You second paragraph is total BS and you're going to fail when you take the course. The desire to find a fat person in a poor place is HIGHER REASONING, it's called using your brain, it's not to do with genetic driven primal drive. If I was starving to death in a place of course I want to cling on to someone that can give me some food. Your lack of knowledge when it comes to the difference between genetically driven primal DRIVES and HIGHER REASONING is astounding. If I can interject into your rather interesting exchange, there have been some studies that do show preferences for slightly different WHR across different ethnicities.
Hkizzle Posted September 25, 2009 Posted September 25, 2009 If I can interject into your rather interesting exchange, there have been some studies that do show preferences for slightly different WHR across different ethnicities. Ok fine, yeah, slight differences. She's saying if a man likes a fat woman in Africa that shows it's a genetic preference. WTF, a load of croack of ****........
northstar1 Posted September 25, 2009 Posted September 25, 2009 Ok fine, yeah, slight differences. She's saying if a man likes a fat woman in Africa that shows it's a genetic preference. WTF, a load of croack of ****........ For interest sake, here is one study.... http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~hbe-lab/acrobatfiles/preferred%20waist.pdf
EarthGirl Posted September 25, 2009 Posted September 25, 2009 EG, from the bottom of my heart and soul, I can truly relate to those feelings. Once I started the process of healing and recovery I received astounding support from friends, family members and my doctor (and pharmacist!). But yeah, taking that first step was extraordinarily difficult for all the reasons you describe. Do it anyway. yeah, the thing is that deep in my heart I don't really want to be loved and supported for what I DO...I want to be loved and support for WHO I AM. Who I already am and always was. I guess that's' what everyone really was. After all I know I have been "mooching" off my parents for quite a few years, but I have not really caused anybody any trouble and I DO go out of my way to help people and contribute to the world and the people even more unfortunate than myself (volunteering as a tutor, giving up a few dollars of my weekly "allowance" to charity even though I'd rather buy junk food and it is not a lot of money I have)..I am very very tired emotionally and physically (the extra weight and frequent insomnia issues does not help with that at all) pretty much all the time and I do what I can perhaps in small ways, but I keep on doing it ...from the outside it does not seem to other people (especially my parents) like it is enough...a lot of it has to do with my parents ....with others I already feel accepted and supported just for who I am. I am a good person I know that and I have tried so very hard to get somewhere. My bro and sis at some points had trouble believing that themselves, maybe partly cause it's just so hard to believe being that I have not made much actual tangible progress (no job, weightloss, etc.)..we are taught that real effort causes effect inevitably.... and partly because they have been influenced by the "toxic" nature of my parents. However they have changed their tune by now, and many of my dearest friends have been supportive and understanding the entire time. However none of these people live nearby me anymore, ONLY my parents. Yeah if people, especially my parents suddenly became so much more loving and supportive of me because I had a real day job and lost weight, was getting myself together...That would really really piss me off and really hurt me. Because you know what, when that happens and I have so much going for me I won't really NEED nearly as much support anyway. I NEEDED peoples' support when I was crying alone at night in my bedroom trying not to let anybody hear because I knew they were tired of my drama, and I had no legitimate reason to be sad in the eyes of the world. I just have finally realized that a big part of the reason I have been "paralyzed" so long is that I live pretty much every day of my life in fear. My parents have always had a way of fighting either with eachother or with me, or with making subtle insults ....that just causes stress.. I don't think it is just me either, my siblings have said the same thing...the tones in their voices just strike terror in me sometimes. If my mother ever read this she would immediately accuse me of putting all the blame on her for my mistakes, and my failures and then she might somehow admit that she "must have done something wrong" (oh it's the worst when she does this one) with me as a child, and guilt trip me hugely because SHE feels guilty, and not only that but lead me to believe that she beileves I am defective and less than..But I have finally realized that the only hope I have is to get out of here. My parents want me to get a part time job to bring in money before I am basically allowed out of the house, and then I would go to some "group home" nearby...fair enough cause the only finance I have is theirs I guess, but I feel like I am being kept prisoner. I dont even want to stay in this state (Maryland)..I have nothing against it, lovely state, but it is not right for me. Because of my anxiety and cognitive problems, day jobs are pretty much out of the question for me. I am considering looking for other ways to make a living, learning a craft of some sort, jewelry making, or chrocheting or something...I don't know. I just don't have many options..I feel like I have to prove myself before I am allowed out of this mess...but I also feel like I never will be able to get anywhere at all until I am free from interaction with these people on an every day basis. Is that a "catch 22" or something? Also I want to point out that I have seen therapists and psychiatrist for years, and I have been through like 2 or 3 of each (partly cause of moving, a few times because I was not happy with them)...and I feel I have been kind of screwed and preyed upon by the supposed "mental health" system. Made to take pills I did not want to take and that never helped much anyway...and at some point I realized that these people don't care about me at all, I am paying them to seem like they care, but they don't even LIKE me. A few of them did like me and I felt they had my genuine best interest at heart, unfortuntaley I had to move. anyway, long story.
Hkizzle Posted September 25, 2009 Posted September 25, 2009 For interest sake, here is one study.... http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~hbe-lab/acrobatfiles/preferred%20waist.pdf Ok, interesting study. However the study does specify that is a result of ecology. It's not a socially driven thing. Ecology driving differences in mate selection is the reason why one species will branch out into different species anyway. The 0.6-0.7 (sorry I've been using the inverse 1.4) is still the preferred amongst developed nations. At the end of the day what is seen as healthy will drive mate selection, and that's genetically imprinted.
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