bhweller Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 two causes for cheating: 1. one person lies and pretends to want monogamy with someone when they don't. 2. the other person clings and demands monogamy even when they can tell the other has a reduced interest level and/or a roving eye. The cheaters are just not telling the truth, sometimes right from the very beginning. People will put on an act to please others, or for selfish gain. Sometimes they just lie to themselves, trying to be something they are not. The "victims" always play their part in creating the situation, but their ego's will not allow them to see it. I do feel sympathy for them, but not after they have been cheated on for the 9th time. the cure: people who have cheated need to work on their honesty and go for what they want, right from the beginning. No faking, not even to please the other person, or "protect their feelings" which is BS. People who get cheated on need to be more aware in the present moment and accept when the other person is not acting right. If they are attracted to others, you either let them do what they want ( because you cannot control them ) or you end the relationship. Do not threaten, whine , beg, or accuse because then the cheater will just feel the pressure and lose all attraction to you, so you are better off just breaking up right then. If it was true love it will come back to you ( but you know it isn't so stop that pining BS also ).
NoIDidn't Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 I can't agree with the conclusion that the cheated on created the cheating. The cheater did not ask the betrayed for permission when they chose their acts, so I fail to see how assigning blame for cheating to the betrayed is the solution. In fact, even if the betrayed wasn't clingy, or begging, or any of the other things that you mentioned as faults in the betrayed, the cheater still would have cheated. The person deciding to cheat is the person that owns the cheating. I get that you are saying to pay attention to the kind of people that we attract. But the betrayed can't be blamed when they didn't know they were being lied to initially by someone with every intention of cheating and keeping it secret. Just my two cents.
Author bhweller Posted September 18, 2009 Author Posted September 18, 2009 "In fact, even if the betrayed wasn't clingy, or begging, or any of the other things that you mentioned as faults in the betrayed, the cheater still would have cheated. " here is the problem with that statement: If you are just dating, and the other person goes out with someone else, is that cheating ? No, thats just dating. In that situation nobody is demanding anything that the other person is unwilling to deliver. What if one person insists on monogamy even though they can tell the other person is reluctant (I have done this). They are essentially manipulating the other person. That other person is now in a position where they can dump a beneficial relationship, or they can lie and pretend to want monogamy, try to have their cake and eat it too. People will tend to lie if the risk/reward is good enough. Actually, the more of a "catch" you are, the more likely you will be deceived. If you are not much of a catch(in the eye of the beholder of course), the other person will just get disgusted and break it off to avoid trouble for themselves. you may find yourself in a relationship that was great in the beginning, and now your ego cannot accept that the interest of the other person has waned. Same basic scenario, the other person may lie to try and have their cake and eat it too. The person playing the "victim" role is lying to themselves and lacks enough self esteem to end the relationship before they get hurt. This is based on the fact that there are always signs well before any cheating happens. It takes two to tango. I still sympathize with the victims, but they need to realize they are playing a victim role and they can stop that happening if they can accept and work on it.
Owl Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 I'm going to disagree with you as well, bhweller. It takes two to make a relationship work...and therefore it only requires one or the other to stop investing in the relationship to make it fail. The other could be putting forth every conceivable effort, and still the relationship will fail because of ONE person...not both. It just takes ONE person to stop investing, one person to no longer hold up their end of the bargain for the marriage to fail. And...one person CAN (and often does) UNILATERALLY make the choice to stop holding up their end, regardless of the actions of the other person. You see it happen all the time. It COULD be both parties that contribute to the failed marriage...but it certainly doesn't HAVE to be.
Author bhweller Posted September 19, 2009 Author Posted September 19, 2009 "It just takes ONE person to stop investing, one person to no longer hold up their end of the bargain for the marriage to fail." This is very true, no argument from me on that point. However you are implying that the other person is somehow EVIL because they no longer want to invest. That is NOT true, and that is the EGO of the person who is CLINGING trying to make the FREE WILL of the other person into something bad. The unwillingness to invest is NOT the bad part. The bad part is the lie, the false appearance of monogamy, when monogamy is not really intended and does not really exist.
Author bhweller Posted September 19, 2009 Author Posted September 19, 2009 no you are reading between the lines and and adding your own spin. You don't want to hear what I have to say. You want me to tell you that other people are evil because they don't want to be with you. No, that is not what makes them evil. What is evil is if they lie and pretend to want to be with you when they don't. That is really simple, take it or leave it.
michelangelo Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 Not! People who cheat chose to do so. It matters not how vigilant or naive their spouse is. There are some cheaters who are so sneaky they do not get caught. And they play act as a good spouse so their unsuspecting husband or wife has no clue. The blame for cheating lies squarely on the shoulders of the one who cheats.
EcstasyX6 Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 As an ex-cheater, I own my error. He was NOT to blame. There were problems within the relationship, but I should not have sought answers outside of it. I did not enter marriage to manipulate him, but because I thought we could make a friendship grow. I kidded myself and him from the beginning, but I was assured by others I thought more mature and wise than myself, that love would grow. Sadly, it did not. That 'death 'til we part' is man made idealism IMO and only realized by a low percentage. Human beings make mistakes, and promises that we regret. No one is perfect. We should all live happy fulfilling lives, and free a person when he or she no longer wants to be with us. You can't make anyone love you. Why would you want to?
michelangelo Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 Nobody would want that. The problem is in the paper, rocks, scissors aspect of a vow of faithfulness. It's not just silly rulemaking by mistaken people. If one finds themselves not able to abide by that vow, then their obligation is to end the marriage and move on. Inflicting emotional damage on the one they acted at one time as if they loved them above all others--enough to vow to be true in front of family, friends, and God? Not cool at all and pretty cowardly.
So_Sick78 Posted September 20, 2009 Posted September 20, 2009 Cheating is wrong whatever the circumstance. If you're unhappy in your marriage, either work it out, or get out. Cheating solves nothing. Revenge cheating solves nothing. Just creates more heartache and problems in the long run.
Author bhweller Posted September 20, 2009 Author Posted September 20, 2009 you are just stuck on "cheating is wrong", "cheaters are bad". yeah no sh*t, you are missing the point completely, and its because you want to. your ego is not accepting reality. if you have been cheated on 9 times in your life, you are doing something wrong. You are not just unlucky. You are not surrounded by attacking demon people who want to break your heart. Your mate selection is not very good and you are clinging to relationships when you should be ending them. you are not a powerless victim.
bentnotbroken Posted September 20, 2009 Posted September 20, 2009 Cheating is wrong in my life. It is the code of moral conduct I live by. No one deserves to be cheated on(even a cheater) and no one can answer for someone else's choices. We each own our own mess. Cheating just isn't one of the messes I live in.
Author bhweller Posted September 20, 2009 Author Posted September 20, 2009 "We each own our own mess. " yes indeed, right on
Owl Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 "It just takes ONE person to stop investing, one person to no longer hold up their end of the bargain for the marriage to fail." This is very true, no argument from me on that point. However you are implying that the other person is somehow EVIL because they no longer want to invest. That is NOT true, and that is the EGO of the person who is CLINGING trying to make the FREE WILL of the other person into something bad. The unwillingness to invest is NOT the bad part. The bad part is the lie, the false appearance of monogamy, when monogamy is not really intended and does not really exist. Hmmm...well, I'd suggest that for the vast majority of western marriages, there is absolutely the promise and intention of monogamy..."forsaking all others" usually falls in there, doesn't it? As far as implying that someone is "EVIL"...not at all. I will STATE that they are RESPONSIBLE...not "EVIL". I'd agree that the 'bad part' is often the lie, the false appearance of monogamy...the bad part is the broken promises and shattered trust created by the intentional deception of someone that they claimed to love. But NONE of that is the betrayed person's 'fault', which is what you implied initially in your posts.
Author bhweller Posted September 21, 2009 Author Posted September 21, 2009 "But NONE of that is the betrayed person's 'fault', which is what you implied initially in your posts." see, thats the ego hangup right there. somebody does something wrong to you, so you place blame on them. Ok fine. Then someone else does the same thing to you, so you place blame on them. Ok, but now its getting old, why did this happen to me twice ? Then a third person does the same thing to you. Ok, place blame on them too if you want, it does nothing to help you at all, in fact it makes you bitter. At some point, you have to face up to the fact that you are doing something to attract this situation in your life. That is what people do not want to accept.
Woggle Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 Blaming the betrayed spouse is blaming the victim and that is not a good thing. Most people I know who have been cheated on didn't deserve it at all and did nothing to cause it.
Owl Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 "But NONE of that is the betrayed person's 'fault', which is what you implied initially in your posts." see, thats the ego hangup right there. somebody does something wrong to you, so you place blame on them. Ok fine. Then someone else does the same thing to you, so you place blame on them. Ok, but now its getting old, why did this happen to me twice ? Then a third person does the same thing to you. Ok, place blame on them too if you want, it does nothing to help you at all, in fact it makes you bitter. At some point, you have to face up to the fact that you are doing something to attract this situation in your life. That is what people do not want to accept. Or perhaps YOU're stuck in this "gotta blame someone" mode? That's what I'm getting from your posts...you've got to assign blame. And your logic is confused...if you agree that all it takes is ONE person to unilaterally break the vows...then you also have to admit that they can do this for entirely selfish and self-centered reasons as well. Simply because they CHOOSE to do so does NOT immediately 'prove' that the other party was at fault, or somehow caused that to happen. It CAN be that case, don't take me wrong. But you're trying to INSIST that the BS 'caused it' somehow...but the reality is, what could have been "lacking" in the marriage may well have been WITHIN THE WS THEMSELVES all along. If you marry someone who is self-centered, self-focused...even narcissistic...then the only "blame" you can accept for their actions is for your poor choice of marriage partners to begin with. Even if they're not NORMALLY like this...people often do make spur of the moment, completely selfish decisions. An affair is often one of these. Even if everything is good in a marriage, some people simply don't have good boundaries and don't have enough self-control (or care for their spouse) to say "no" when temptation arises. I'm curious tho...what drives YOUR need to villianize BS's here on this site?
Author bhweller Posted September 21, 2009 Author Posted September 21, 2009 "Most people I know who have been cheated on didn't deserve it at all and did nothing to cause it." one more person who doesn't get what I am saying, and probably doesn't even want to. This is not for everybody I know, some people just need to learn things the hard way.
Owl Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 I think we get what you're saying...you're insisting that those who have been cheated on caused it in some fashion...deserved it in some fashion. We just don't AGREE with you. As I said...your logic doesn't make sense. Walk me through how it is always the BS's fault?
NoIDidn't Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 You know, I've met some people in life that if they were to tell me that they were once cheated on, I would think "I can understand why". But that doesn't make the cheating their fault. It still makes the cheating the fault of the cheater. No one forces a cheater to get or stay married. And if they decide to cheat, they are keeping that knowledge from the person that they cheated on. I would have a lot more respect for a person that says to their spouse or SO, that if you continue to behave in X manner, that I may look elsewhere - after leaving the relationship, of course - than for the person that cheats first instead of doing something to address the issues in the primary relationship.
HUFI Posted September 23, 2009 Posted September 23, 2009 QUOTE - In the original post, you wrote the following; The "victims" always play their part in creating the situation, but their ego's will not allow them to see it. I do feel sympathy for them, but not after they have been cheated on for the 9th time - END QUOTE I'm the WS in my affair and I know for 100% that my BS was not at fault for my decision (or lack of one in actual fact) for my having an EA affair. As Owl and others argue, this is solely a unilateral decision and no fault can be assigned to my spouse. There was no lack of emotional connection, no lack of passion, no lack of sex or lack of anything. We had a great and good marriage for 23 years. I had volunteered for a lifetime of “forsake all others" with her 23 years before and in fact, in the week before the A started, I would have sworn on a stack of bibles that I still firmly believed in those vows. Then I cheated. Not her. Me. Plain and simple. I remmber saying ah ha!, when I looked at the original post and read the following; The "victims" always play their part in creating the situation, but their ego's will not allow them to see it. I do feel sympathy for them, but not after they have been cheated on for the 9th time. I could see a argument for the fact that those BS who "let" their spouses carry on with their 9th affair without calling them on the carpet and demanding an immediate end might be "guilty" of enabling the subsequent affairs but that’s not the same as being able to argue that the “victim” was or is guilty of causing the first one. I think we might agree that there is a difference between not agreeing to the first breach of trust and enabling the next 9? I know its nitpicking but everyone here should know by now that generalities such as the phrase, “The "victims" always play their part” are usually wrong when applied to specific people in their very particular set of circumstances. HUFI
Hkizzle Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 the cure: people who have cheated need to work on their honesty and go for what they want, right from the beginning. No faking, not even to please the other person, or "protect their feelings" which is BS. People who get cheated on need to be more aware in the present moment and accept when the other person is not acting right. If they are attracted to others, you either let them do what they want ( because you cannot control them ) or you end the relationship. Do not threaten, whine , beg, or accuse because then the cheater will just feel the pressure and lose all attraction to you, so you are better off just breaking up right then. If it was true love it will come back to you ( but you know it isn't so stop that pining BS also ). Your cures won't work for two reasons: 1) As an ex player (but I did my best never to lead someone on) I can tell you if you're totally honest with a woman your success ratio goes down 80%. Which meant I by not leading women on I had to watch as 80% walked away even though they liked me. If a person is selfish, and they're manipulative by nature. As if they will care about this cure. 2) The victim gets emotional, then they're friggin blind.
movingforward Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 Or perhaps YOU're stuck in this "gotta blame someone" mode? That's what I'm getting from your posts...you've got to assign blame. And your logic is confused...if you agree that all it takes is ONE person to unilaterally break the vows...then you also have to admit that they can do this for entirely selfish and self-centered reasons as well. Simply because they CHOOSE to do so does NOT immediately 'prove' that the other party was at fault, or somehow caused that to happen. It CAN be that case, don't take me wrong. But you're trying to INSIST that the BS 'caused it' somehow...but the reality is, what could have been "lacking" in the marriage may well have been WITHIN THE WS THEMSELVES all along. If you marry someone who is self-centered, self-focused...even narcissistic...then the only "blame" you can accept for their actions is for your poor choice of marriage partners to begin with. Even if they're not NORMALLY like this...people often do make spur of the moment, completely selfish decisions. An affair is often one of these. Even if everything is good in a marriage, some people simply don't have good boundaries and don't have enough self-control (or care for their spouse) to say "no" when temptation arises. I'm curious tho...what drives YOUR need to villianize BS's here on this site? This is exactly the case for me. My husband didn't do anything wrong. The reasons for the affair had everything to do with ME.
2sure Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 How is it possible for anyone who has read posts here to any real extent to still assume that most cheating is based on sex , sexual attraction to others, or in opposition to monogamy?
inhindsight Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 As an ex-cheater, I own my error. He was NOT to blame. ................., but I should not have sought answers outside of it. Very well put. No blame issued on my side either. I used to justify my feelings by blaming, but ultimately, nobody put a gun to my head to engage in cheating.
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