Karma

[TaraMaiden]

First of all it's important to establish that we're talking about the same thing here.

 

If you've read my nauseatingly repetitive explanations of Karma and the definition of same, as is taught in Buddhism, you will know that according to said Discipline or calling, Karma (coupled with Vittaka) is basically Cause and Effect.

Do 'A' and result 'AA' will follow. Do 'B' and result 'BB' will follow.

 

Karma is accrued as a result of a volitional and deliberate action (be it mental, verbal or physical).

As one Buddhist teacher puts it, "Karma basically means you don't get away with anything. And it all counts."

 

The thing to also further remember, is that:

 

'ALL Conditions are Mind-Wrought'.

 

That is to say, everything that happens before our eyes and ears, is transformed by our own personal perception into Good, Bad or neutral.

 

Events occur, statements are made, actions are carried out.

 

But they have no meaning or significance, until we attach one to them.

 

We decide, through our perception, whether something pleases us or not, or whether we are indifferent to it.

 

The Buddha described it thus: (And we're talking nearly 3000 years ago....)

 

I'm quoting this in two parts, evil and Good, respectively.

 

Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they......

 

Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. .....

 

Now, we might take issue with this, because we truly believe that people do evil things, people do good things and everybody sees this, so it's not us deciding what is good or bad, but it's a general consensus of opinion.

 

This is of course, quite true.

 

If somebody murders a child, that's bad.

if someone gives a child some candy to make them happy, that's good.

 

But a Doctor who aborts a baby because it's in the fallopian tube and the continued pregnancy would kill both mother and child, is not conventionally necessarily labelled a murderer.

 

...And we've all heard the "don't take sweets from strangers" sentence, haven't we....?

 

So it's a question of perception, and getting the whole view.

A luxury not always afforded to us.

 

The second parts of the 'Evil' and 'Good' quotations above, go like this (again, respectively):

.....If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox.

 

.....If one speaks or acts with pure mind, AFFECTION follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves

 

If you say something nasty to someone, no matter how justified you might feel about it at the time, after a while, you always want to go back and change it, or there is some regret of some kind. Or maybe even at the time, you have this little sensation that this is not the way to behave.

And Anger is the most thought/word/deed disruptive emotion there is.

we never do things right if we let anger steer the boat.

 

So there's your Karma, right there.

The "Geesh, I wish I hadn't said that/I wish I'd done things differently" moment.

 

Conversely, if we consider doing something with a good intention, hoping to do well by others and ourselves, the instant or subsequent mental response is far better....

 

This is a simplistic way of explaining things, but that's it, really, in a nutshell.....

 

So....

 

How's that?

[Owl]

So Karma has nothing to do with the results of our choices or actions or thoughts...it's simply the sensation that we "shouldn't have done that"?

 

I don't buy that.

 

Because I don't believe that everyone actually feels that. I truly believe that there are people out there in the world that are completely, totally incapable of that sensation.

 

And that sensation isn't "proof" of karma to me. That sensation could quite honestly be nothing more than an instinctive response to asocial behavior. We're tribal animals, very dependent upon each other to survive. Taking actions that we know destroy those bonds with others is atavistic. It's destructive...and instinctually, we know this. It's nothing to do with karma, and everything to do with base animal instincts that tell us we're doing something that is contrary to our survival.

 

Or, it could be the Holy Ghost. It could be the voice of God telling me that I've done something against His will, against His teachings. It could be that 'conscience' that He planted in me at the moment of my creation.

 

Sorry...this doesn't prove "karma" to me if I have a sensation in the pit of my stomach...heck, it could have been a bad chicken sandwhich for lunch today.

 

See where I'm going? Proof is something more than assuming everyone else experiences that same little pang of guilt for doing something stupid/bad.

[Owl]

FWIW, I don't actually disbelieve in karma, either.

 

I'm just up for a good debate!

[tami-chan]

Sorry...this doesn't prove "karma" to me if I have a sensation in the pit of my stomach...heck, it could have been a bad chicken sandwhich for lunch today.

See where I'm going? Proof is something more than assuming everyone else experiences that same little pang of guilt for doing something stupid/bad.

 

omg....thanks Owl, this made me laugh so hard....I am beside myself!!!!:lmao:

[TaraMaiden]

So Karma has nothing to do with the results of our choices or actions or thoughts...it's simply the sensation that we "shouldn't have done that"?

No.

That is the feeling of Karma in action.

karma takes effect. How we feel, is that effect taking place. But it's not the karma.

 

.

 

Because I don't believe that everyone actually feels that. I truly believe that there are people out there in the world that are completely, totally incapable of that sensation.

That's very possible. In fact, I would say you are right. But that is their kartma taking effect. That response in itself, produces karma. The indifference, the cruelty, the self-justification will in and of itself, produce karma. Remember what I stated: Karma is as a result of a deliberate action.

 

And that sensation isn't "proof" of karma to me. That sensation could quite honestly be nothing more than an instinctive response to asocial behavior.

 

That response will be positive, negative or neutral.... yes?

 

We're tribal animals, very dependent upon each other to survive. Taking actions that we know destroy those bonds with others is atavistic. It's destructive...and instinctually, we know this. It's nothing to do with karma, and everything to do with base animal instincts that tell us we're doing something that is contrary to our survival.

Any organism's instinct is to survive.

It's HOW we survive - for example, at the expense of another organism - that is the crux of the matter.... We might well be tribal animals, but we have over time, developed the ability to use logic and reasoning, alongside - or maybe at times, over - our instinct. It is this Logic and reasoning that creates our karma. Remember we create positive as well as negative karma...

 

 

 

Or, it could be the Holy Ghost. It could be the voice of God telling me that I've done something against His will, against His teachings. It could be that 'conscience' that He planted in me at the moment of my creation.

If that is your belief, then be that as you see it.

 

 

Sorry...this doesn't prove "karma" to me if I have a sensation in the pit of my stomach...heck, it could have been a bad chicken sandwhich for lunch today.

OVery well put...... eating something poisonous will have a physical consequence. But in this case, thinking something poisonous will in some way, have a mental consequence... eating is very like thinking. We chew something over, take food for thought, and digest things, mentally speaking.....so you make a very good point there.

 

See where I'm going? Proof is something more than assuming everyone else experiences that same little pang of guilt for doing something stupid/bad.

Not so.

You missed my argument entirely.

That the way you perceive things colours your reaction. Pausing to consider whether your reaction is 'skilful' or 'unskilful' will accrue the type of Karma relative to your response.

[TaraMaiden]

FWIW, I don't actually disbelieve in karma, either.

 

I'm just up for a good debate!

 

And understand I'm not INSISTING I am right, simply to be right. I love a good debate too! Thank you!! *applause*

[Owl]

Any organism's instinct is to survive.

It's HOW we survive - for example, at the expense of another organism - that is the crux of the matter.... We might well be tribal animals, but we have over time, developed the ability to use logic and reasoning, alongside - or maybe at times, over - our instinct. It is this Logic and reasoning that creates our karma. Remember we create positive as well as negative karma...

 

Here is where we went akilter. That "feeling" you describe I don't believe to be part of our logic and reasoning...I believe it to be tied to our tribal instincts.

 

Because our survival depends on our reliance on others, its instinctive for us to know and feel when we've done something that damages our ability to rely on others.

 

It's not logical, reasoned...it's primal, instinctive, and distintly 'human' because our strength and ability to survive aren't tied to strength, but on our society and numbers.

 

That feeling doesn't "prove" that karma exists...that feeling just proves that we're still subject to our instinctive need and reliance on the rest of our tribe for continued survival.

[tami-chan]

ahhh...finally, thank you, BHweller!!!!! I am of Japanese descent and "understood" karma but could not for the life of me explain it as it is part of a belief entrenched in a my heritage....

[TaraMaiden]

hello bhweller, and thank you so much for your input!

 

You are absolutely correct. I am expounding the explanation of Karma from a buddhist point of View.

 

I believe - but would have to study more closely to confirm - that Hindusim considers some karma to be like fate, and beyond our scope (and therefore beyond our Free Will), and as you rightly point out, Hindus assert we have 'some Free Will'.... whereas Buddhism asserts that all decisions are based on having complete Free will.... That's one minor difference.

 

Secondly, as you point out, there is the matter of 'Collective Karma' where you state -

 

Your karma is not isolated, but part of a web of karmas of all beings. Therefore you can be helped or hindered by getting mixed up with other people through your own free will.

 

According to Buddhism, Collective Karma is so highly complex (just how far out do you stop...?) that it has been branded an 'Unconjecturable' by the Buddha, because it is such a convoluted matter, we might go mad before we figure it out.

The Buddha advised that no matter what Karma is manifesting, we simply address what we are thinking, saying and doing, and advises us further to consider these three aspects skilfully, in order to eliminate/prevent Negative karma and perpetuate/create Positive Karma.

 

The Karma of others cannot affect us.

 

It is only our attitude and response (through our perception) to the words and deeds of others, that determines what kind of Karma we create for ourselves.

In other words, we can get mixed up with whomever we wish to be mixed up with. Their karma, through their thoughts/words/actions, is theirs to deal with. How we interact and respond to them, is how we create our own Karma.

It's our choice.

 

Thank you so much for your viewpoint, I appreciate it.....

[TaraMaiden]

Here is where we went akilter. That "feeling" you describe I don't believe to be part of our logic and reasoning...I believe it to be tied to our tribal instincts.

It doesn't matter what it's tied to. It's the experience and the consequence of how we respond to that feeling.

 

Because our survival depends on our reliance on others, its instinctive for us to know and feel when we've done something that damages our ability to rely on others.

And their ability for them to rely on us, presumably.... so the consequence on how you behave towards others, and how you react to the way others behave towards you, determines your Karma quality.....

 

It's not logical, reasoned...it's primal, instinctive, and distintly 'human' because our strength and ability to survive aren't tied to strength, but on our society and numbers.

So?

Instinct would once have led you to hunt down and bludgeon to death the man who raped your wife.

And it might have been, at one time, entirely socially acceptable for you to do it, too.

Instinct now might still tempt you to do the same.

So why don't you?

 

I'm not sure I understand exactly what it is you're trying to tell me here.

Maybe I'm grasping the wrong end of the stick.

If I am - run this by me again.

 

That feeling doesn't "prove" that karma exists...that feeling just proves that we're still subject to our instinctive need and reliance on the rest of our tribe for continued survival.

I've highlighted a difference in behaviour, entirely down to our Logic, reasoning, awareness and socially ethical conditioning, above.

 

If you once did something against your tribe, you might have been punished, ejected, ostracised or worse still, possibly put to death.

There was your consequence, in actual and real form. Right there.

 

Nowadays, if you do something blatantly against your family's/community's wishes, the social retribution will not be as marked, but conversely, the advancement of the mental ability to discern, evaluate, weigh up and decide what's 'right' and what's 'wrong' will more or less tell you, the minute you've acted, whether what you did was the right thing or not..... it's the arising of this discernment that will tell you what kind of Karma you're accruing.