Surving in prison, to stick up for yourself or to not stick up for yourself?

[Ross PK]

I watch a lot of Ameican prison documentaries. And I hear a lot that to survive you should not take any crap because you will be seen as an easy target and be given a really hard time in there.

 

But surely if you stuck up for yourself then that could cause more trouble, couldn't it result in you getting stabbed or shanked in the yard or something?

 

I try to imagine how I'd be in prison, and I just don't know what I'd do, I wouldn't want to be seen as an easy target but I'd fear the repercussions too much to stick up for myself.

 

Seems whatever you do you're screwed (probably literally too). Yet a lot of guys do survive in prison, they have respect and they don't end up getting killed or injured.

[Trialbyfire]

Might I suggest that you avoid the usage of "stick up" when discussing prison behaviour? Some food for thought...

[Ross PK]

Might I suggest that you avoid the usage of "stick up" when discussing prison behaviour? Some food for thought...

 

Lol, never thought of it like that.

[Thaddeus]

I worked in the prison system for a while and may be able to shed a little insight.

 

The "lone wolf" in prison doesn't do well. There's safety and security in numbers, which is one of the reasons gang culture is so prevalent in prisons. Lots - and I mean LOTS - of "tough guys" come into the system figuring they can handle themselves, only to realize (sometimes too late) that trying to portray a lone wolf tough guy gets them nowhere, and if they survive they eventually align themselves with a group.

 

Often the groups develop along racial grounds - whites stick with whites, Latinos with Latinos, blacks with blacks, Asians with Asians, etc etc. It's sort of like a criminal NATO, whereby an attack against one is considered an attack against the group.

 

To get into a group as an outsider there are often rituals and tests that one will have to successfully complete, and some of these tests involve violence against another group or prison staff. Sure, the fellow will end up doing more time, and probably be relegated to solitary ("The Hole" or "The Pit") for a while, but once he's in the group he's relatively protected.

 

There's a whole culture that lives and breathes inside those prison walls, and there isn't a single day that goes by that I don't thank prison staff and guards for keeping that culture inside those walls and away from the rest of us.

 

And for those who think that prison is some sort of country club, three square meals a day, nice bed to sleep in and all the rest, well, try it sometime and tell me how much you like it.

 

After all, when was the last time you heard about someone wanting to break in to prison?

[Ross PK]

Thanks for the insight Thaddeus, I guess the best thing would be to try and be sociable then?

 

I know there's no way that the prisons in America (or at least the ones I've seen) are country clubs. But over here in Britain, they pretty much seem to be, prisoners get tv's and games consoles in their rooms, and there are actually people who commit crimes so that they can get into prison.

[Thaddeus]

Thanks for the insight Thaddeus, I guess the best thing would be to try and be sociable then?

Well, depends what you mean by "sociable." If you mean trying to be buddy-buddy with everyone there, that won't help, you'll (not you personally, but a prisoner) just be viewed as a sycophant. But if you mean aligning yourself with some group and passing whatever test it is they set out for you, then you'll have the protection of the group.

 

Note to the literal-minded: This is NOT how it's supposed to work and I don't make any recommendations about how one should comport themselves in the prison system. If I put on my professional hat, I'll only say that you should keep to the rules, mind your own business, follow instructions by guards and staff to the letter and take whatever programs are offered, then you'll be fine.

I know there's no way that the prisons in America (or at least the ones I've seen) are country clubs. But over here in Britain, they pretty much seem to be, prisoners get tv's and games consoles in their rooms, and there are actually people who commit crimes so that they can get into prison.

I'm in Canada so I can't speak from first-hand experience about prisons in the US or the UK.

 

Come to think of it, though, there's usually an incident or two on or about xmas eve by a small number of deluded individuals that break a window or something in hopes of getting a nice xmas dinner while they're held over before their court appearance. But that's a pretty rare event.

[Taramere]

I try to imagine how I'd be in prison, and I just don't know what I'd do, I wouldn't want to be seen as an easy target but I'd fear the repercussions too much to stick up for myself.

 

Seems whatever you do you're screwed (probably literally too). Yet a lot of guys do survive in prison, they have respect and they don't end up getting killed or injured.

 

Anecdotally, I had to visit a prison that contained quite a lot of violent sexual offenders one time (training related thing when I was a student). Presumably for a laugh, some of the guards walked me through the huge workroom while the prisoners were on a break. I was incredibly tense about all these guys staring at me, and within about 10 seconds they all started yelling, whistling, making threatening sexual gestures etc. I had to walk across the room (feeling like Edward Scissorhands....you know the way he walks as though his whole body is made of wood?) and just try to shut it all out.

 

As soon as I was out of there I focused on all these physical sensations that the anxiety was causing and went through a mental process of "relax your shoulders, relax your arms, your hands etc etc. You don't need to worry about this. It's just an embarrassing incident caused by some stupid guards who thought it would be funny - but they're not going to let anything serious happen to you."

 

Shortly afterwards, I met some of the prisoners who'd been shouting. I was still thinking in terms of "relax, relax. There's no point in worrying about this. Worrying will not help. It doesn't matter if they make a couple of smutty comments. Nobody's going to die here."

 

And actually they were fine by that point. They asked me a bit about the course I was doing and behaved in a friendly and even quite protective manner. I had no way of knowing what kind of crime any of those men in particular were there for, and there was not really any point in dwelling on it. Anxiety creates discomfort with other people. People's aggressive feelings will often rise up when they experience discomfort - so if you're dealing with aggressive people, it's important to stay calm and relaxed so that you're less likely to tap into any of those fight or flight instincts.

 

Another example. Dangerous sports. I sometimes go white water rafting, which isn't without its risks. It's easy to panic when you're flying around rocks down a waterfall, but if you do panic you're liable to fall in and be dragged down. So however scary it looks, you have to stay calm, listen to the guide and focus really hard on doing what they tell you to do.

 

I'm not suggesting you suddenly go flying down a dangerous river in a raft, but it does occur to me that some kind of sport might help you to focus on how your mood affects your performance. Seeing instant results (ie good, if you can stay calm and focused - not so good when you panic and lose focus) really brings home to you the importance and benefits of thinking positively.

 

As a non dangerous sport, you could perhaps sign up for some tennis lessons. You won't be placed at any risk, and you'll have opportunities to practice calming yourself, thinking positively, paying attention to what's going on and seeing how huge an impact that has on the way you handle whatever (literally) comes your way. You'd be amazed by just how much you can improve your performance in anything by learning these fast "calm down and focus" techniques....and a physical activity is better than anything else for practising and improving them.

 

Would this be an idea for you? Would you think about it? I know it sounds like a lecture, but to me this thread is another example of you torturing yourself with scary thoughts that can only increase the anxiety you're so held back by. Realistically, you're not liable to be going into prison - are you? I mean, you sound like a quiet, law abiding citizen. It doesn't seem necessary for you to start planning any strategies for how you'll cope in the clink.

[Ross PK]

Anecdotally, I had to visit a prison that contained quite a lot of violent sexual offenders one time (training related thing when I was a student). Presumably for a laugh, some of the guards walked me through the huge workroom while the prisoners were on a break. I was incredibly tense about all these guys staring at me, and within about 10 seconds they all started yelling, whistling, making threatening sexual gestures etc. I had to walk across the room (feeling like Edward Scissorhands....you know the way he walks as though his whole body is made of wood?) and just try to shut it all out.

 

As soon as I was out of there I focused on all these physical sensations that the anxiety was causing and went through a mental process of "relax your shoulders, relax your arms, your hands etc etc. You don't need to worry about this. It's just an embarrassing incident caused by some stupid guards who thought it would be funny - but they're not going to let anything serious happen to you."

 

Shortly afterwards, I met some of the prisoners who'd been shouting. I was still thinking in terms of "relax, relax. There's no point in worrying about this. Worrying will not help. It doesn't matter if they make a couple of smutty comments. Nobody's going to die here."

 

And actually they were fine by that point. They asked me a bit about the course I was doing and behaved in a friendly and even quite protective manner. I had no way of knowing what kind of crime any of those men in particular were there for, and there was not really any point in dwelling on it. Anxiety creates discomfort with other people. People's aggressive feelings will often rise up when they experience discomfort - so if you're dealing with aggressive people, it's important to stay calm and relaxed so that you're less likely to tap into any of those fight or flight instincts.

 

Another example. Dangerous sports. I sometimes go white water rafting, which isn't without its risks. It's easy to panic when you're flying around rocks down a waterfall, but if you do panic you're liable to fall in and be dragged down. So however scary it looks, you have to stay calm, listen to the guide and focus really hard on doing what they tell you to do.

 

I'm not suggesting you suddenly go flying down a dangerous river in a raft, but it does occur to me that some kind of sport might help you to focus on how your mood affects your performance. Seeing instant results (ie good, if you can stay calm and focused - not so good when you panic and lose focus) really brings home to you the importance and benefits of thinking positively.

 

As a non dangerous sport, you could perhaps sign up for some tennis lessons. You won't be placed at any risk, and you'll have opportunities to practice calming yourself, thinking positively, paying attention to what's going on and seeing how huge an impact that has on the way you handle whatever (literally) comes your way. You'd be amazed by just how much you can improve your performance in anything by learning these fast "calm down and focus" techniques....and a physical activity is better than anything else for practising and improving them.

 

Would this be an idea for you? Would you think about it? I know it sounds like a lecture, but to me this thread is another example of you torturing yourself with scary thoughts that can only increase the anxiety you're so held back by. Realistically, you're not liable to be going into prison - are you? I mean, you sound like a quiet, law abiding citizen. It doesn't seem necessary for you to start planning any strategies for how you'll cope in the clink.

 

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head there. The fact that I wouldn't know what to do if I were to end up in an American prison does sometimes bother me. Crazy eh? I know I'll never end up in prison, especially an American Supermax. But it just bothers me for some reason, knowing that because I'm not that masculine, look young, and I'm nowhere near as big built as a lot of those prisoners, that I'd be a prime target in there. I can't help but sometimes wonder what the hell would I do if I ended up in that kind of a situation.

[Taramere]

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head there. The fact that I wouldn't know what to do if I were to end up in an American prison does sometimes bother me. Crazy eh? I know I'll never end up in prison, especially an American Supermax. But it just bothers me for some reason, knowing that because I'm not that masculine, look young, and I'm nowhere near as big built as a lot of those prisoners, that I'd be a prime target in there. I can't help but sometimes wonder what the hell would I do if I ended up in that kind of a situation.

 

People often dwell on anxiety provoking hypotheticals because they believe there's something positive to be learned by doing so. Also, worrying can become a real habit.

 

The top men in supermax prisons are going to have had, like Thaddeus says, almost a lifetime of gang membership behind them. Entire lives devoted to the business of learning how to politick, negotiate, accept some level of humiliation and fight to be accepted in the gang. So the simple answer is that you would not cope against those guys. Fortunately you won't have to.

 

If it makes you feel any better, I was on a binge of watching wildlife clips last week - and found myself wondering how I'd cope if I were confronted by a pride of angry lions. Well naturally, I wouldn't. I'd be eaten alive.

[Ross PK]

If it makes you feel any better, I was on a binge of watching wildlife clips last week - and found myself wondering how I'd cope if I were confronted by a pride of angry lions. Well naturally, I wouldn't. I'd be eaten alive.

 

I've actually thought of the exact same thing!

 

And you're right, it's like finding the answer will put your mind at ease and make you feel better.

 

As for tyring things like tennis, well, I don't think this is too much of a problem for me to warrant doing anything like that, it's not like I actually get distressed or anything, plus I've already got a lot on my plate with trying to deal with driving and getting my own place.

[Jilly Bean]

Ross? Is this a genuine concern? I mean, something you're preparing for?

 

That being said - watch Oz. It was a most excellent series on HBO. LOVED it, and I think it was relatively realistic about prison life.

[Ross PK]

Ross? Is this a genuine concern? I mean, something you're preparing for?

 

That being said - watch Oz. It was a most excellent series on HBO. LOVED it, and I think it was relatively realistic about prison life.

 

Yes I've seen Oz, it's a great show.

[Taramere]

I've actually thought of the exact same thing!

 

And you're right, it's like finding the answer will put your mind at ease and make you feel better.

 

As for tyring things like tennis, well, I don't think this is too much of a problem for me to warrant doing anything like that, it's not like I actually get distressed or anything, plus I've already got a lot on my plate with trying to deal with driving and getting my own place.

 

I realise that. I mentioned it because....well, it's a fun thing to do. It's also a good way of learning to calm yourself and focus in a situation where there's no real stress on you - then transferring those skills you're learning to more calmly handle situations that are a bit more stressful. I thought perhaps this might help you a bit with the driving problem.

[lino]

What's brought this about mate?

 

I think this is definitely one of those 'worry about it if/when it happens' scenarios

[bhweller]

This is an interesting subject, not because anyone here is going to prison, but because of the nature of masculinity and what the ideal male is. You have to think about what maculine and feminine really mean and what our value judgements about those concepts are.

 

Here is the real truth as I see it: violent hardened criminals are 100% masculine. You can't get any more masculine than that. "Normal" men who try to get by in society and be good all have some feminine qualities. For example, compassion is a feminine quality. Most of the qualities that are considered good in a judeo-christian moral sense are feminine and not masculine.

 

This brings up the concept of a "real man". The OP is really insecure because he is not 100% masculine. I suspect that his post is not really about prison, but about whether it is "ok" for a straight man to be less than 100% masculine.

[BeSteady]

This is an interesting subject, not because anyone here is going to prison, but because of the nature of masculinity and what the ideal male is. You have to think about what maculine and feminine really mean and what our value judgements about those concepts are.

 

Here is the real truth as I see it: violent hardened criminals are 100% masculine. You can't get any more masculine than that. "Normal" men who try to get by in society and be good all have some feminine qualities. For example, compassion is a feminine quality. Most of the qualities that are considered good in a judeo-christian moral sense are feminine and not masculine.

 

This brings up the concept of a "real man". The OP is really insecure because he is not 100% masculine. I suspect that his post is not really about prison, but about whether it is "ok" for a straight man to be less than 100% masculine.

 

BS! Things such as fairness, honesty, integrity, honor, selflessness are just as masculine as your limited definition. Dont believe me watch a John Wayne movie or spend some time in a fox hole. Just because I can kick your @SS that does not make me a man, because I don't that does. It is the intelligent man that can get the brawn to do the heavy lifting, so how has the power and control.

[GorillaTheater]

I don't worry about this sort of thing too much. If I go to the Big House, it'll probably be some kind of minimum security set-up with gangs of lawyers and accountants. Not a bean-counter on the planet I can't take.

[Trialbyfire]

Hey Ross, isn't it better to worry about what's for dinner, rather than going to the slammer or accidentally consuming cyanide which has been embedded in the glue on the envelope flap, of an envelope purchased at the corner store?

[Ross PK]

I suspect that his post is not really about prison, but about whether it is "ok" for a straight man to be less than 100% masculine.

 

That's not really true.

[sally4sara]

I've never been to prison, but I'll tell you one thing for sure if I ever end up there:

 

NO ONE is getting my cornbread!