Some Truths from a WS

[MistyK]

How weird when the MM gets angry for the OW dissin' his W while he is in the middle of dissin' his W 24/7 by being involved in an A...how screwed up is THAT?!

 

xMM had this issue early on too - he'd go on for a long time about how horrible his W was then get pissed later if I said anything that implied she was less than the Virgin Mary. He explained it later as the same sort of phenomenon where "I can make fun of my little brother, but YOU can't". In reality, I was giving him a place to vent so that he didn't have to deal with confronting her directly with what was bothering him in the M. I made it easier for him to stay M. But honestly, it's funny that talk SO much smack about the W, then wonder why your protective juices get flowing.

[samprez]

As my therapist said, no matter how they project their spouses, there are issues there. Toward the end, when I think she was most conflicted, she would prop him up and then lean on me for emotional dependence. Amazing. I was but a fool my friends.

[foreal]

But honestly, it's funny that talk SO much smack about the W, then wonder why your protective juices get flowing.

 

YES!! This is where being an OW would just beat me down...I wondered why she (MOW) would put up with this- you listen to the MM complaining or boo hooing etc about the W, and then when you (as the OW) offer support for his woes, he turns on you...what an Ahole he is.

 

From their texts, she definitely complained about her H more than he did about me... but let's face it, even if was just one complaint, to have to read/know your H bitched about you at all to OW hurts...and makes me want to say to him: SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIEND!!

[Spark1111]

As my therapist said, no matter how they project their spouses, there are issues there. Toward the end, when I think she was most conflicted, she would prop him up and then lean on me for emotional dependence. Amazing. I was but a fool my friends.

 

Samprez, you are not alone. The emotions, the dynamic gets so skewed by the unreality of it all. Processing the reality from the fantasy can be mind boglling and very painful, for all.

 

My WSs OW asked mid-way if he and I were still physically intimate.

 

He lied and said no.

 

She convinced him that I must have a lover.

 

He and I made love (can you still call it that???) once or twice a week, though he did seem a million miles pre-occupied.

 

It boggles the mind.

[MistyK]

Thanks, Misty. That seems more normal to me than not talking about the spouses and that is what I would think. Of course, the deal there is that the MM (or my H, for example), tells things about the wife to the OW in order to "cement" or further the relationship with the OW (tear the M down, justify the A) and if the MM goes back to the W would usually tell less or omit some details (I would think) to further the R with the W.

 

I have always suspected this is exactly the case. Sometimes he'd try to defend her by saying things like "she's not a bad person, she has a wonderful personality, but she's child-like, and that's draining." Basically, letting an OW into your life, which if you are an MM includes your W, is a neccessary component of intimacy. But it's really weird.

[jj33]

The guy I was involved with NEVER said a bad word about his W. Once in a blue moon he alluded to things about their relationship that were not good, but he never trashed her as a person in any way nor did he trash their relationship. He was very proud of the "family unit".

 

And Samprez as the OW I went through the same thing, when his W had some difficulties I was the one he leaned on for support (without of course admitting that was why). When he had some difficulties, I was the one who helped him sort them out because his W wasnt concerned enough to help him (and i know that because if she had done what I had done I wouldnt have needed to do it). In retrospect I was good value for their relationship. Took the edge off a lot of things for them!

[MistyK]

YES!! This is where being an OW would just beat me down...I wondered why she (MOW) would put up with this- you listen to the MM complaining or boo hooing etc about the W, and then when you (as the OW) offer support for his woes, he turns on you...what an Ahole he is.

 

 

Yeah - exactly. They talk all this trash so that having the A doesn't seem so bad - my W is terrible to me, my M is over, blah, blah; but then it's all how dare you - roses and chocolates - when the OW wonders out loud why he doesn't just leave then if it's so bad. It's quite a balancing act they have to pull off to keep the A going - making it sound just bad enough to justify the A, but not bad enough to leave.

[samprez]

The guy I was involved with NEVER said a bad word about his W. Once in a blue moon he alluded to things about their relationship that were not good, but he never trashed her as a person in any way nor did he trash their relationship. He was very proud of the "family unit".

 

And Samprez as the OW I went through the same thing, when his W had some difficulties I was the one he leaned on for support (without of course admitting that was why). When he had some difficulties, I was the one who helped him sort them out because his W wasnt concerned enough to help him (and i know that because if she had done what I had done I wouldnt have needed to do it). In retrospect I was good value for their relationship. Took the edge off a lot of things for them!

 

Want to know something funny. Even though it would be really bad, I kinda want her H to know what whe was sharing with me about him. When I feel bad about missing her, I remind myself what prize he won. I know I'm just as bad for hurting my wife, but I never betrayed her secrets and her intimacy with things that were going in her life outside of me.

[jennie-jennie]

Except that an affair has tbat extra degree of frission due to doing something 'naughty', something that you may get caught at, which all adds to not seeing things as they really are - the 'fog'.

 

Except that I don't consider myself doing anything naughty nor morally wrong. Remember, unapologetic other woman.

[Devil Inside]

So it's interesting to read the differing views about the "fog" and whether Rs that start as As are real or just fantasy.

 

If I have learned anything from reading other people's stories, it's that it is all different, and it just depends. I don't think that any two can be alike. There are similar pattens, and I suspect many dynamics are very common...but the As are as unique as the two APs involved.

 

With time I feel that I have a better grasp on what was happening to me in my A. I think that what I felt was very real...however, it was created in a very unreal environment.

 

My xOW was a smart, sexy, and loving person...many guys would love to be with her. However, looking back I picked someone that was very opposite of me in many ways. I think that this was something that drew me to her...would it have made a relationship in real life between us difficult...you bet.

 

I think that she and I met each other at exactly the right spot in our lives. We both gave each other something we were lacking. However I look it like this...I had 80 percent of what I wanted out of life...here comes someone that embodies the other 20...so I take that missing 20 and make it 100. If I were to start a life with her I think I would have found that she would also be 80 (if that) and I probably much less than 80 for her.

 

Being in an A is a very intoxicating experience. We met in hotels. Were basically on vacation together...away from responsibility. We had great times. We laughed. We cried. We allowed ourselves to be open. However, it is easy to be that person with each other when we do not have the shared responsibilities that we had with our spouses. In many ways we had a love born in a test tube.

 

This did not make the feelings of infatuation or falling in love any less real...it's just that they were created from an unreal situation...and it leads me to believe that taken out of that situation there are no guarantees that it would continue.

 

The fact that we ended our A while still in a false reality makes it hard for me to see the reality of the situation at times. Again, the feelings are real, but the reality was...I could never expect to get this feeling from a long term marriage because Ms don't happen in a vacuum. Real life happens...and it makes it hard to maintain infatuation. It is about commitment, choice, and communication. That is what makes a good marriage so impressive...two people that love each other even when that initial flame has lessened. It is a truly impressive thing to see.

 

This is just my experience. I have seen many people here who definitely had a different experience...and I don't mean to imply that all As are fantasy situations...but mine was.

[jj33]

You raise a really interesting point. I think i was the 20% for xMM. Maybe 30% at best because giving up the marraige would be giving up more than just his relationship with his W.

 

So even tho we never had vacations or times in hotels (we were always at his home or mine) we dealt with real life things like health issues etc. the fact that I dealt with those things with him is perhaps something that raised it to 30-35%. But its still not the core of his life, the history, the common reference points both cultural and personal. What we had was real, but it wasnt the whole enchilada.

[jennie-jennie]

Well.... just my opinion, of course, but it seems to me that what you are talking about is that during one of the normal "lulls" in a LTR, someone else has perked your interest - and rather than holding to the commitment that would normally see you through the lull you (using the word you meaning anyone...) instead choose to break the vows you've sworn. You decide you love, but aren't "in love" anymore so you can choose to be "in love" with someone else.

 

If the affair ever ends up being anything other than an affair, that relationship will also have lulls, because that is the nature of a LTR - it is not, however, the nature of an affair, because the possibility of being caught adds a level of excitement that is unnatural and therefore continually feeds the "high" of the affair - and the infatuation phase or "in love" feeling does not move on into the possibly more boring but usually more satisfying contentment of a long term relationship.

 

No, that is not what I am talking about. I don't look at love like you do.

 

I very much agree with Francesco Alberoni's view on love, so I will quote another passage from his book Falling in Love and Loving:

 

"And yet, if that desire continues to return and overpower us, we are in love. Falling in love is a process in which the other person, the one whom we have encountered and who has responded to us, overpowers us as an irresistable loveobject. It is this fact that compels us to rearrange everything in our life and to rethink everything, starting with our past. In truth, it is not a rethinking but a remaking. It is a rebirth."

 

I look at true love as something compelling, overpowering, irresistable, not something that can be decided or chosen.

 

Having said that when I am in a satisfying relationship I am not open for new love even during the "lulls" or bad times, thus my boundaries are intact. I do believe something needs to be missing or as Alberoni says, a "revolution" is needed, for a new love to be able to enter into a marriage or long term relationship.

 

And I am not talking about infatuations here, but about a falling in love which turns into true long term love. This happens in long term EMRs as well, at least that is my experience. I see no difference between my EMR and the other long term relationships I have had. There is no additional excitement going on now when four years have passed. My hormones have long since settled to normal levels.

[Devil Inside]

You raise a really interesting point. I think i was the 20% for xMM. Maybe 30% at best because giving up the marraige would be giving up more than just his relationship with his W.

 

So even tho we never had vacations or times in hotels (we were always at his home or mine) we dealt with real life things like health issues etc. the fact that I dealt with those things with him is perhaps something that raised it to 30-35%. But its still not the core of his life, the history, the common reference points both cultural and personal. What we had was real, but it wasnt the whole enchilada.

 

I think it is important for me to point out that in no way is my xOW not 100. Like I said...for many she would be like 200. It's just the her that I fell in love with was the 20. the parts of her that I really needed...the sensuality, the intense romance, the way she needed me to help her...those were the parts of her that I took and made a whole person from...so I did her the disservice of not really loving all of her....because if I did..I would not have allowed her to be an OW...I would have known that giving her a part of me was cruel.

[Devil Inside]

No, that is not what I am talking about. I don't look at love like you do.

 

I very much agree with Francesco Alberoni's view on love, so I will quote another passage from his book Falling in Love and Loving:

 

"And yet, if that desire continues to return and overpower us, we are in love. Falling in love is a process in which the other person, the one whom we have encountered and who has responded to us, overpowers us as an irresistable loveobject. It is this fact that compels us to rearrange everything in our life and to rethink everything, starting with our past. In truth, it is not a rethinking but a remaking. It is a rebirth."

 

I look at true love as something compelling, overpowering, irresistable, not something that can be decided or chosen.

 

Having said that when I am in a satisfying relationship I am not open for new love even during the "lulls" or bad times, thus my boundaries are intact. I do believe something needs to be missing or as Alberoni says, a "revolution" is needed, for a new love to be able to enter into a marriage or long term relationship.

 

And I am not talking about infatuations here, but about a falling in love which turns into true long term love. This happens in long term EMRs as well, at least that is my experience. I see no difference between my EMR and the other long term relationships I have had. There is no additional excitement going on now when four years have passed. My hormones have long since settled to normal levels.

 

What does Alberoni say happens when a relationship with your object of love is over...do the feeling fade or go away. Can those feeling be transferred to a new object?

[jj33]

I know what you mean but what I took the % to mean is that she filled in that 20% that was missing from making your marriage perfect.

 

If you had an actual enchilada;) but it didnt have much cheese on top, no guacamole or salsa on the side,

 

the addition of those things might be that extra 20%

[MistyK]

I know what you mean but what I took the % to mean is that she filled in that 20% that was missing from making your marriage perfect.

 

If you had an actual enchilada;) but it didnt have much cheese on top, no guacamole or salsa on the side,

 

the addition of those things might be that extra 20%

 

Mmm. Now I'm hungry.

[Spark1111]

Yeah - exactly. They talk all this trash so that having the A doesn't seem so bad - my W is terrible to me, my M is over, blah, blah; but then it's all how dare you - roses and chocolates - when the OW wonders out loud why he doesn't just leave then if it's so bad. It's quite a balancing act they have to pull off to keep the A going - making it sound just bad enough to justify the A, but not bad enough to leave.

 

Or, hopes, MistyK, the OW/OM HOPES he will leave if his marriage if it is so bad. But the implied message is don't push it, so he/she remains strung along for the ride, IMHO.

 

Samprez, and or other posters, too:

 

They say you have to minimize (or denigrate) the marriage to allow yourself permission to enter the affair.

 

Then, you have to minimize the affair in your efforts to re-enter and reconcile the marriage?

 

True?

[MistyK]

 

Then, you have to minimize the affair in your efforts to re-enter and reconcile the marriage?

 

True?

 

I really think it's a neccessity if the WS remains/goes back to the BS. Is that post-A revisionist history or is it just that under different lighting things were not as they once appeared? I think it depends and every situation is different.

 

Likewise, the minimization of the M - how much of it is revisionist history to justify the A and how much only appeared awful under the light of the A?

[ladydesigner]

I had 80 percent of what I wanted out of life...here comes someone that embodies the other 20...so I take that missing 20 and make it 100.

 

DI I think you hit it on on the head for me. I never realized this until you said it. Wow!!! That is exactly what many of my family and friends have been telling me is that I made my xOM into this fantasy character. In a real life situation he would not be that and when I think about it in those terms he wouldn't have. If I were to have a committed relationship with my xOM I truly feel it would have been worse than my marriage. He was the 20% for me... I just need to keep reinforcing that idea and get him out of my head now. Whew. God when I really think about it...I don't know what I was even thinking in the first place. Thank you for that insight DI... thank you...thank you...thank you.

 

Now I think I need to take a break from LS as I feel I am starting to give some really bad advice:o

[PhoenixRise]

I really think it's a neccessity if the WS remains/goes back to the BS. Is that post-A revisionist history or is it just that under different lighting things were not as they once appeared? I think it depends and every situation is different.

 

Likewise, the minimization of the M - how much of it is revisionist history to justify the A and how much only appeared awful under the light of the A?

 

 

Just from observing my own H I think it is a little of both. I know the affair didn't look the same to him in the clear light of day but I also know there was some revisionist history going on too.

 

AND on the other hand.

 

All marriages hit dips from time to time. There is no doubt that our M was really in a dip when he met OW. So if he told her that things were not good in the M then he told her what was true at the moment. I also think that the M appeared worse to him under the light of the affair.

 

You know what sucks about the whole thing?

 

The only one who knows the whole truth is the H/MM

 

AND who can believe them?

[silktricks]

I look at true love as something compelling, overpowering, irresistable, not something that can be decided or chosen.

 

I also view true love in this manner. However, even true love has its ebbs and flows. So even though my true love is my marriage partner, that doesn't mean a couldn't get infatuated for a period of time with someone else. I don't believe that someone's true love would permit that true love to be an other woman/man. Nor do I believe that love just "happens" and swoops down on one like a hawk without warning. One must be open to have love come visiting, and then it must be nourished while it ripens, as it were...

 

But we will continue to disagree possibly forever, so let's just call a halt, OK?

[jennie-jennie]

For crying out loud, who requires an author to tell them about falling in love? It's simply something you know... it happens deep within the heart (I call it heart love) rather than just lusting.

 

If you want to know whether you love someone or not, ask yourself this... whether you'd be with your MM if he no longer had a penis.

 

If you can answer 'yes' then you love him. If you can't... you're in lust.

 

Read the book and you might learn something.

[jennie-jennie]

I also view true love in this manner. However, even true love has its ebbs and flows. So even though my true love is my marriage partner, that doesn't mean a couldn't get infatuated for a period of time with someone else. I don't believe that someone's true love would permit that true love to be an other woman/man. Nor do I believe that love just "happens" and swoops down on one like a hawk without warning. One must be open to have love come visiting, and then it must be nourished while it ripens, as it were...

 

But we will continue to disagree possibly forever, so let's just call a halt, OK?

 

We probably agree on many issues when it comes to love. We disagree on some, agree on some. I actually agree with most of what you wrote above, except that I believe that a true love can have served its function as time passes and life and you yourself change, and then you might find a new true love in an other woman/man.

[jennie-jennie]

I can read the author's POV. I know what falling in love is and I know what loving is... I have had a colorful life to say the least. I married the man I both fell in love with and loved.

 

JJ, I forget, were you ever married?

 

No, I have chosen not to, since I do not believe that one can promise to love someone forever. One can expect to love someone forever, but not promise it. I belong to the generation who rebelled against the traditions of old. I have however been in a 25 year long relationship with the father of my children, but I suspect that doesn't count. I still love him by the way, he is just not my primary love interest anymore. I love him, but I am not in love with him, thus I do not have sex with him any longer.

 

I always like to read about stuff I am interested in. I like to reach beyond my own thoughts and perspective. I read Alberoni's book from cover to cover and have revisited it many times.

 

Lovely, have you ever been an OW in a long term relationship?

[eeyore1981]

Let me explain. She's a real person and we had a real relationship. When things got tough for me and she said, "I love you," she then ran a week later (glad she did, I was totally spinning) but real people don't abandon those in trouble. I'm not like that. There's many things that happened I can't describe here that have left me wondering about her as a person. Look, I'm as hard on myself as anyone you will ever meet and I just would never just run from someone; even in this circumstance. Remember my point on the top of this thread, that if she ends up divorced over this, I feel ownership to that result.

 

Make sense?

 

In the case of my H's OW, she presented a facade to him that was almost completely false. To him, she pretended to be pure as the driven snow, but her ex-H said he caught her in bed with her boss, and even her father told me my H was not the first MM she had been caught messing with. After I found out, she actually told me marriage was sacred to her, and she was a very good christian, then threw a fit when H wouldn't continue to sneak around behind my back with her after the dust settled. It was maybe a year and a half after all this that he was able to really get the woman he thought he was involved with and who she really is had little to nothing in common.