Author samprez Posted September 12, 2009 Author Posted September 12, 2009 Samprez what a great post. I totally agree with you about the fog. I think "the fog" is a nice way of saying I made choices that I now regret because they hurt you. When what it really means is at the time you werent my main concern. I didnt want to hurt you, and I will forever be sorry that the choices I made at that time caused you pain. I am several years out of the affair and it still haunts us both. We dont speak about the past but its clear from his behavior that he hasnt totally reconnected with his spouse. I dont think its easy for anyone in the triangle. I hope you and your wife are doing well. jj Hey JJ. We're doing great. We talk alot. We did MC for along time. I've been in total NC with OW for about 6 months now. There are moments and I can tell when she's distant and sad, but I give her her space and I don't pressure her. I've been reassuring and reaffirming but I know it's going to take a long time for this to heal. Hell, I'm still damaged too with some real frustration and anger at both myself and OW. But I give my W credit, she's been a rock star. And you know what, she must really love me for what I put her through. I owe her everything!!! OW couldn't have been real. When things got tough for me she ran and disappeared. Glad she did or things would have been worse, but turned out saying "I love you," doesn't mean the same thing when you leave the AP hanging. Right? I've learned alot during this time and respect my wife she is 100X the woman that OW is; no doubt!!! I've always tried to be real on this board and not sugarcoat things. The pain is real, the disappointment is real and the hurt doesn't go away overnight. If I saw OW I'd have some real choice words for her, but I am not going to EVER seek her out or find her again. The damage I did to my life and my family is significant and I pay for it everyday. Thanks for checking in on me. I appreciate it very much.
jj33 Posted September 12, 2009 Posted September 12, 2009 Im really glad you and your W are moving forward. THAT is a success story.
eeyore1981 Posted September 12, 2009 Posted September 12, 2009 Thanks for the response. I pretty much know this, but after two years, I seem to desperately NEED to hear (read) someone admit it, even if it isn't my husband. It surprised me to read you say in your post your OW wasn't real. This is what I have believed about my H's OW almost from the beginning. Since he was less than forthcoming about what went on, I did a lot of investigating into her, as well, and what little he told me about their interactions, and everyone else had to say about her, including her own father, she could have been two entirely separate people. Sometimes, after what I feel he has put me through for the past two years, I wish he would have ended up with her. It would have been a rude awakening, for sure, and I would probably be LMAO about it right now instead of the way I feel.
eeyore1981 Posted September 12, 2009 Posted September 12, 2009 For the past 2 years, I have been trying to find out what happened. What his feelings were for her, how much intimacy was shared, how much, if any, physical intimacy was shared, and if any of that took place in my house. Do you understand why I need to know these things to be able to get past this, forgive it, and move on?
jennie-jennie Posted September 13, 2009 Posted September 13, 2009 I sort of look at the 'fog' from this point of view... Would the MP have CHOSEN the same person (AP) and experienced the same intensity if they were single and both free to date and take the relationship anywhere they wanted to? Would the 'undeniable chemistry' have existed if they the MP was single? Would the sex have been so 'connected and mind blowing'? You bet, and I know this to be true since we had a relationship earlier in life! We were however young enough to be forced apart by circumstances beyond our control and lost touch for several decades. Meanwhile he had married. But back then, the intensity and the undeniable chemistry sure was there!
jennie-jennie Posted September 13, 2009 Posted September 13, 2009 Great questions! If single, would they still have chosen each other???? If they would have, would it have enjoyed the same intensity of emotions??? The fog is often explained as "the dopamine dance," that over-spiking of feel good hormones that fuels an affair and feels like euphoric love in its extreme sense. It does cloud judgement, actions, perceptions, and leads to a Grieving of the relationship after it's over. But is the AP grieving the relationship, or the dopamine spiking? Either way, it must FEEL real. There are the same hormones and brain chemistry involved every time we fall in love, whether it is with our future spouse or with an AP. The reasoning above would mean we were in a fog every time we were in love.
jennie-jennie Posted September 13, 2009 Posted September 13, 2009 From the book "The Road Less Traveled" "Genuine love is volitional rather than emotional. The person who truly loves does so because of a decision to love. This person has made a commitment to be loving whether or not the loving feeling is present. If it is, so much the better; but if it isn't, the commitment to love, the will to love, still stands and is still exercised." I don't agree with this. IMO, if the loving feeling is not present then there is no genuine love, there is only the honoring of the commitment. It becomes more of "fake it til you make it". You can not "decide" to love someone. From the book "Falling in Love and Loving" by Alberoni: "That person does, however, quickly discover that there are two sides or facets to the contract - to the wedding vow - he or she made in the past, one of which can be (or must be) willfully adhered to and the other of which can only be spontaneously respected. The clear 'willful' part of the contract centers on that question: "Will you love this man/woman in sickness and in health?" In saying 'yes', each partner pledges to love and help the other. This is a possible thing to pledge. However, each cannot pledge 'to be in love, to love passionately and desperately'. And this is the second, hidden part of the contract which the person in love (but already married) denounces. We can imagine him or her saying, "I hold firm to my legal commitments, but no one can swear by his feelings. Authenticity is the important thing, not carrying on with pretenses. I can't lie. Besides, when I made those vows I swore not to lie." This person is revoking his or her side of the contract for reasons having to do with the principles, for those higher moral values, implied in it."
Spark1111 Posted September 13, 2009 Posted September 13, 2009 I NEVER RUN!!! Answers: I am not holding anything back, what I was referring to were things that I had even forgotten but that really embarrass me now. When your affair ends and you are dealing with DDay, you tend to focus on the here and now. In my case, I was working with my wife, mourning the end of the affair (yes, it's true, I missed her) and focusing on work. Lots of things going on, so I wasn't able to really think about every conversation, IM or text message that was exchanged. It's now exactly a year since things got heated up. I have triggers all over the place. Dates, movies on tv, songs on the radio, I see the car she drives on the road, the weather, etc..and it reminds me of the interactions at the beginning of the affair. She showed up at my office a few times and texted me from the parking lot. I forgot about that as I was fighting for my life. There's a movie on Showtime right now that we snuck out and saw together. I remembered the movie, but seeing a few scenes from it again reminded me of what I said to her that day about how I felt about her. My point is that there are many small things that go on in a LTA that you simply don't recall but come crashing back at a single time. It's hard to sit down near Dday and outline them. Harsh reality? I told her I loved her at that movie, stroking her hair and holding her hand. Do you want that detail? I forgot about the specifics until I saw that movie again. This is natural and I discussed this in IC. The guilt that is associated with that stuff is huge. I know details about her family, her kids, her husband her daily routine that also make me feel terrible. Knowing things and having intimacy in conversation is a big deal. People like Chrome want people like me to pay the price and what they don't understand is that if you are truly remorseful, you pay everyday. My IC told me last time that I've been as hard on myself as anyone he's ever seen and it's ok to let go a little. I can't because I can't put Humpty Dumpty together again. More later. Me run, never. It's part of why I can't reconsile my affair. So happy you are working on your marriage and it seems as if it is going well for you. I do know that you have to forgive yourself before you can get to the "why" of it all, the hardest question to answer, IMHO, no?? As a BS, we sense or know what you do not want to disclose, because we know YOU, our WS, all too well. Of course, there were "I love yous," hand-holding, hair-stroking. secret trysts, hot sex. It wouldn't be an affair otherwise, now would it? I think your guilt is a part of the process. It was for my husband too. He cannot believe who is was and what he became during his affair. I'm sure he had many triggers too, and they crippled him. But in time, I think you will be better able to understand and move forward in your marriage. Be kind to yourself.
redtail Posted September 13, 2009 Posted September 13, 2009 I don't agree with this. etc... From the book "Falling in Love and Loving" by Alberoni: "etc... However, each cannot pledge 'to be in love, to love passionately and desperately'. etc..." I understand, this is a debate without resolution except to agree to disagree. The debate about, "I love you, but not 'in-love' with you".
silktricks Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 There are the same hormones and brain chemistry involved every time we fall in love, whether it is with our future spouse or with an AP. The reasoning above would mean we were in a fog every time we were in love. Of course we are Or at least every time we are infatuated.
silktricks Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 I don't agree with this. IMO, if the loving feeling is not present then there is no genuine love, there is only the honoring of the commitment. It becomes more of "fake it til you make it". You can not "decide" to love someone. " JJ - there is a huge difference between "falling" in love and "being" in love. The infatuation period of love does reduce after time. Not to say that it doesn't come flaring back often, but it isn't "on" all of the time. When you've loved someone for a long time, sometimes you don't feel "in love", sometimes you feel contentment, sometimes you feel relaxed, sometimes you feel so completely bloody angry that you'd like to take a sledgehammer to 'em... . During those times you aren't doing the "fake it til you make it", because you aren't faking anything. You love the person. You know it. You may not feel lust or infatuation or what some people call "in love". But you know you love that person, and would lay down and die for them - even though - at that moment - you'd dearly like to kill them yourself .
whichwayisup Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 The guilt that is associated with that stuff is huge. I know details about her family, her kids, her husband her daily routine that also make me feel terrible. Knowing things and having intimacy in conversation is a big deal. Can I ask? Did you share intimate details with her about your wife, kids, daily routines, and other secrets? If so, did you tell your wife that you did? Or is this one of those things you prefer to keep to yourself to prevent your wife from feeling more pain and betrayal?
jennie-jennie Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 JJ - there is a huge difference between "falling" in love and "being" in love. The infatuation period of love does reduce after time. Not to say that it doesn't come flaring back often, but it isn't "on" all of the time. When you've loved someone for a long time, sometimes you don't feel "in love", sometimes you feel contentment, sometimes you feel relaxed, sometimes you feel so completely bloody angry that you'd like to take a sledgehammer to 'em... . During those times you aren't doing the "fake it til you make it", because you aren't faking anything. You love the person. You know it. You may not feel lust or infatuation or what some people call "in love". But you know you love that person, and would lay down and die for them - even though - at that moment - you'd dearly like to kill them yourself . Silk, that is not what I am talking about. I too have been in long term, very long term, relationships and know what long term love is like. What I am talking about is when your primary love object has switched, and switched for good.
seren Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 What I am talking about is when your primary love object has switched, and switched for good. I totally get that someone can fall out of love and switch to someone else for good. I hoped that if my H had an A that, that would be the reason. Make it for fireworks, brass bands, long lingering looks, couldn't avoid it kind of love - please not for, it was available, easy, sex, or I don't know's. Understanding that, I just don't get how, if both parties of the A feel like that the MP doesn't speak with their husband/wife and say I am sorry this is a fait accompli and I have to be with this person 24/7, can't breathe without them, to be in a marriage feeling like this for someone else is so insulting to the person who doesn't know and must be torturous for the lovers concerned. I wouldn't want my H to be with me but have all these thoughts for someone else. Just go for God's sake and let me find someone else who does this for me - I have to say, I have always loved my H, not always been in love or like with him, but he was the person I was going to be old bones with and beyond, taking for granted happens. I so hate the I am back in the marriage but my heart is with AP. Jeez just go, just stop being so bloody patronising and disrespectful of your W. (niot directed ay anyone in particular)
jasminetea Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 There are the same hormones and brain chemistry involved every time we fall in love, whether it is with our future spouse or with an AP. The reasoning above would mean we were in a fog every time we were in love. Except that an affair has tbat extra degree of frission due to doing something 'naughty', something that you may get caught at, which all adds to not seeing things as they really are - the 'fog'.
aeh Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 Can I ask? Did you share intimate details with her about your wife, kids, daily routines, and other secrets? If so, did you tell your wife that you did? Or is this one of those things you prefer to keep to yourself to prevent your wife from feeling more pain and betrayal? I am curious about this, too. My husband insists that they really didn't talk about their spouses--though she did ask a few times how often we "did it", and did ask if I liked to shop and what kinds of things I bought (she was a golddigger) but says otherwise they just didn't discuss their spouses. I find this very difficult to believe. It's the big elephant in the room. They met approx once a week or every two weeks for lunch and sex for ten months. How did they not discuss us?
silktricks Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 Silk, that is not what I am talking about. I too have been in long term, very long term, relationships and know what long term love is like. What I am talking about is when your primary love object has switched, and switched for good. Well.... just my opinion, of course, but it seems to me that what you are talking about is that during one of the normal "lulls" in a LTR, someone else has perked your interest - and rather than holding to the commitment that would normally see you through the lull you (using the word you meaning anyone...) instead choose to break the vows you've sworn. You decide you love, but aren't "in love" anymore so you can choose to be "in love" with someone else. If the affair ever ends up being anything other than an affair, that relationship will also have lulls, because that is the nature of a LTR - it is not, however, the nature of an affair, because the possibility of being caught adds a level of excitement that is unnatural and therefore continually feeds the "high" of the affair - and the infatuation phase or "in love" feeling does not move on into the possibly more boring but usually more satisfying contentment of a long term relationship.
MistyK Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 I am curious about this, too. My husband insists that they really didn't talk about their spouses--though she did ask a few times how often we "did it", and did ask if I liked to shop and what kinds of things I bought (she was a golddigger) but says otherwise they just didn't discuss their spouses. I find this very difficult to believe. It's the big elephant in the room. They met approx once a week or every two weeks for lunch and sex for ten months. How did they not discuss us? In my case, xMM shared pretty much everything with me. I knew her daily routine, her interactions with the kids, what she eats, everytime she tried to initiate sex (and was supposedly rebuffed) and even the type of vibrator she wanted because he refused to have sex with her. In fact, I went with him to the store to buy it just because it was a chance to spend time with him (she refused to go buy it herself because she's too embarrassed to set foot in an adult store). I even know that it was loud and she didn't like it. Some MM's share EVERYTHING. Frankly, IMO, he shared way too much. And the reverse is true as well, after D-day, he told her all kinds of things - where I work, what I do, why I got divorced, things about our conversations, things that upset me about the A, etc. But I still don't think he shared with her nearly the level of detail about me that he gave me about her. I guess at the time I took that as a sign of the level of intimacy I had with him - proof that "we" were closer as a couple than "they" were.
MistyK Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 OW couldn't have been real. When things got tough for me she ran and disappeared. Glad she did or things would have been worse, but turned out saying "I love you," doesn't mean the same thing when you leave the AP hanging. SOunds like you dodged a bullet - what happened? (Not sure what you mean when you say she ran when things got tough).
foreal Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 My H said they did not discuss their S's very much...he said she did more than him though (she boo hooed a lot about how her H treated her)... He said speaking about each other's H/W was quite the mood killer. No shyt. What I find really bazaar is that he said there were a few times she would say something derogatory about me and that would really piss him off. (She was my friend so she knew me)...he said one time she said something about her being able to meet his needs better than me and he went off on her and that it ruined their 'date' and he went off in a huff...it is funny b/c from the phone and text records you can see when they met, the times there was no phone or text (when they were together) and then, how she was calling and texting him like crazy afterwards when they had a fight and he did not return hers for a couple of days. How weird when the MM gets angry for the OW dissin' his W while he is in the middle of dissin' his W 24/7 by being involved in an A...how screwed up is THAT?!
Author samprez Posted September 14, 2009 Author Posted September 14, 2009 Thanks for the response. I pretty much know this, but after two years, I seem to desperately NEED to hear (read) someone admit it, even if it isn't my husband. It surprised me to read you say in your post your OW wasn't real. This is what I have believed about my H's OW almost from the beginning. Since he was less than forthcoming about what went on, I did a lot of investigating into her, as well, and what little he told me about their interactions, and everyone else had to say about her, including her own father, she could have been two entirely separate people. Sometimes, after what I feel he has put me through for the past two years, I wish he would have ended up with her. It would have been a rude awakening, for sure, and I would probably be LMAO about it right now instead of the way I feel. Let me explain. She's a real person and we had a real relationship. When things got tough for me and she said, "I love you," she then ran a week later (glad she did, I was totally spinning) but real people don't abandon those in trouble. I'm not like that. There's many things that happened I can't describe here that have left me wondering about her as a person. Look, I'm as hard on myself as anyone you will ever meet and I just would never just run from someone; even in this circumstance. Remember my point on the top of this thread, that if she ends up divorced over this, I feel ownership to that result. Make sense?
Author samprez Posted September 14, 2009 Author Posted September 14, 2009 Can I ask? Did you share intimate details with her about your wife, kids, daily routines, and other secrets? If so, did you tell your wife that you did? Or is this one of those things you prefer to keep to yourself to prevent your wife from feeling more pain and betrayal? Whichway: How are you my friend? I didn't share too much, I was uncomfortable. She shared a lot. She sent me emails and letters about personal family situations; including one her H wrote to his sister about an internal family issue. One that she was sending to the school about her child. I was a listener in this. I did share somethings, but she was very engaged with me and was very open. Don't make the assumption that I'm keeping things in, I had so much stored from the constant interaction. It was 24/7 when things were hot and heavy. Other things like we both texted constantly when on family vacations; her first then me. Look, it's all bad stuff. My guilt is pretty strong.
aeh Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 Thanks, Misty. That seems more normal to me than not talking about the spouses and that is what I would think. Of course, the deal there is that the MM (or my H, for example), tells things about the wife to the OW in order to "cement" or further the relationship with the OW (tear the M down, justify the A) and if the MM goes back to the W would usually tell less or omit some details (I would think) to further the R with the W.
Author samprez Posted September 14, 2009 Author Posted September 14, 2009 SOunds like you dodged a bullet - what happened? (Not sure what you mean when you say she ran when things got tough). I dodged no bullet. My W still doesn't trust me (with cause) and I've been suffering almost daily now for over a year (including affair time). She knew my W found out and wanted to continue the A. She was very interested in having me there to "love" her but then her H caught on to some things and she just went off the grid. Makes me wonder about people. It's a longer explanation but I don't have the time right now to explain.
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