Some Truths from a WS

[foreal]

 

Maybe all guys aren't like this, but I would NEVER have a cheap one-night stand with someone (at a meeting, a hooker, etc.)

 

one more thing:

 

You classify ONS as cheap.... Compared to what? The true love you found with OW while slinking around behind your W's back? are you for real?

[drmcdreamy]

I know and that's the question I have to ask. If there is no fog. what the F did you think during the affair? I mean did anyone coviently forget they was married? How do you rationalize that in your head you have a wife at home, while your banging someone else.

 

But lastly you have to ask yourself if it was a choice to cheat, and no one put a gun to your head and forced you to cheat. Then why???

 

Ouch - quite a bit of anger there.

 

I did not forget that I was married. I found myself in love with another woman, and was tormented daily by the fact that I was, and that I didn't have the strength to remain faithful to my wife.

 

No one put a gun to my head and forced me to cheat, except my own emotions (which are far more powerful than any weapon), and I accept that.

 

Without knowing you, I assume you're married/in-love with someone. If that person died, do you think eventually you would fall in love with/marry someone else? Doesn't that mean you're capable of loving two different people? Unfortunately, that happened to me simultaneously, not sequentially, and judging by a lot of the posts on this board (and statistics, and books I've read) that's not at all an uncommon occurence. What would have been best would be if I never met or fell in love with the OW. Second best would've been if I could've avoided the emotional and/or physical affair.

 

Was I wrong? Did I make mistakes? Absolutely. But it seems like you think I did this blithely - that I didn't give a s*&t about what was happening to me and the two women - and there you'd be very wrong. There was plenty of hurt to go all around. I was hurting too. But I was trying to do the best I could, while having a lot of feelings that were confusing and difficult and strange and scary and wonderful all at the same time. I think I'd appreciate it if you didn't out-of-hand accuse me of being some two-timing scum and realize that I have emotions too and that none of us are perfect (and I haven't seen any WS on this board who has acted that way).

[drmcdreamy]

Maybe all guys aren't like this, but I would NEVER have a cheap one-night stand with someone (at a meeting, a hooker, etc.)

 

NEVER?

 

Did you also NEVER think you'd fall in love with another person while M to your W? Or was that always a possibility for you?

 

I was able to remain physically faithful to my wife for a very very long time. I then fell into an emotional affair, which totally caught me by surprise.

 

Interesting choice of words: PHYSICALLY FAITHFUL.

 

Have you been emotionally unfaithful in the past to your W?

 

I never thought I'd fall in love with another woman.

 

I never had/have, other than this once, so after 20+ years of marriage, this was my first affair either emotionally or physically.

 

Y'all who are skewering me should read that book (Not Just Friends) before you throw stones.

 

How long have you been married?

[drmcdreamy]

No, no, no. Commitment is okay as long as it's easy, convenient and no distractions...

 

Do you have anything constructive to add, or just cheap shots?

[Chrome Barracuda]

Ouch - quite a bit of anger there.

 

I did not forget that I was married. I found myself in love with another woman, and was tormented daily by the fact that I was, and that I didn't have the strength to remain faithful to my wife.

 

No one put a gun to my head and forced me to cheat, except my own emotions (which are far more powerful than any weapon), and I accept that.

 

Without knowing you, I assume you're married/in-love with someone. If that person died, do you think eventually you would fall in love with/marry someone else? Doesn't that mean you're capable of loving two different people? Unfortunately, that happened to me simultaneously, not sequentially, and judging by a lot of the posts on this board (and statistics, and books I've read) that's not at all an uncommon occurence. What would have been best would be if I never met or fell in love with the OW. Second best would've been if I could've avoided the emotional and/or physical affair.

 

 

Not at the SAME time...

 

I have never placed myself or will ever place myself in that position. I would keep my boundries in place before I make any decisions. and I am ultimately in control of my emotions. Same as YOU, you are in control of your feelings. People who cannot control their emotions to a degree of control of where you can make rational choices have a deep problem.

 

You knew what you was doing by staying in the emotional affair. As soon as it was happening you should have ended it there, but you didnt you slipped. And your emotions didnt control you, deep down inside you made that choice to be unfaithful.

 

I dont mean to be judgemental,but how can you not control yourself???

 

I mean it wasnt a lapse in judgement, it was a choice. I'm glad you realize it was wrong, and I'm glad your working on making stronger boundries. but I just dont get how people coukd do it in the first place and be angry afterwards about it. Thinking , justifying, and rationalizing the decisions away like it didnt happen. You are owning it, The OP not so much.

[foreal]

I never thought I'd fall in love with another woman.

 

I never had/have, other than this once, so after 20+ years of marriage, this was my first affair either emotionally or physically.

 

Y'all who are skewering me should read that book (Not Just Friends) before you throw stones.

 

How long have you been married?

 

I am not skewering you, I am asking you questions.....

 

You say you would NEVER have a cheap ONS..yet you NEVER would have an A either..just saying never say never b/c clearly shyt happens.

 

And I have read NJF...my H has too and yep, I understand how shyt happens, the slippery slope et etc...

 

This quote from you tells me you may want to re-read the book:

What would have been best would be if I never met or fell in love with the OW. Second best would've been if I could've avoided the emotional and/or physical affair.

 

Meeting and being around attractive people happens all the time..being attracted to them is natural, normal...you say it would be best not to have ever met OW?? No, according to the book, the best would be to not lower the wall between your M after you met OW. You never would have fallen in love with OW had you kept the protective wall around your M.

 

You seem not quite ready to accept your inglorious self.

 

And I have been M for 21 years.

[redtail]

Do you have anything constructive to add, or just cheap shots?

 

Sorry, you're right, that was a cheap shot. Let me further explain my feelings on commitment.

 

Many people spout fidelity, commitment, most if not all marriage vows contain something to the effect that each partner will commit to the other through various conditions, sickness and health. I'm sure you're familiar with those.

 

However, when it's easy, when there are no distractions, commitment can be had from anyone. The true believer in commitment, is the one that commits when the going gets tough.

 

From the book "The Road Less Traveled"

"Genuine love is volitional rather than emotional. The person who truly loves does so because of a decision to love. This person has made a commitment to be loving whether or not the loving feeling is present. If it is, so much the better; but if it isn't, the commitment to love, the will to love, still stands and is still exercised."

 

So when you post that you can betray "part of a commitment", from my perspective, it makes no sense. There is no commitment, and therefor a cheap shot. I'll try to do better...

[michelangelo]

 

I guess what I meant about "part" was that I continued to show her love, give her attention and time, remain with her and support her - everything a husband should give a wife, except for fidelity. I didn't walk out on her and leave her stranded. If anything, during the A she often commented on how it seemed I was being a little more romantic, loving, caring, etc. than usual (a little, because she didn't complain before that those were absent).

 

 

It's kind of like if you had described making breakfast for your wife as you've always done, but just added some tasteless and colorless poison to it. Then to be puzzled that the serving of the oatmeal was somehow "different."

[michelangelo]

Maybe all guys aren't like this, but I would NEVER have a cheap one-night stand with someone (at a meeting, a hooker, etc.) My infidelity absolutely started with the emotional aspect of the relationship, and I never realized it was happening and what power it would have over me (or how I would give myself up to its powers) once it started.

 

Does this make your infidelity some kind of more noble endeavor than a one night stand?

[Spark1111]

I am not skewering you, I am asking you questions.....

 

You say you would NEVER have a cheap ONS..yet you NEVER would have an A either..just saying never say never b/c clearly shyt happens.

 

And I have read NJF...my H has too and yep, I understand how shyt happens, the slippery slope et etc...

 

This quote from you tells me you may want to re-read the book:

What would have been best would be if I never met or fell in love with the OW. Second best would've been if I could've avoided the emotional and/or physical affair.

 

Meeting and being around attractive people happens all the time..being attracted to them is natural, normal...you say it would be best not to have ever met OW?? No, according to the book, the best would be to not lower the wall between your M after you met OW. You never would have fallen in love with OW had you kept the protective wall around your M.

 

You seem not quite ready to accept your inglorious self.

 

And I have been M for 21 years.

 

Foreal, I agree with you.

 

We choose to love and commit, or we do not.

 

Being attracted to other people happens all the time, but if we have chosen to be in a committed relationship, we form boundaries and do not allow anyone to cross that slippery slope.

 

Cheaters have weak, or nonexistant boundaries.

 

Sorry, drmcdreamy, but you sound like you are still in the "it just happened, I never meant it too," very romanticized, post-affair, phase of denial.

 

Think of all the little steps you took to fuel that attraction, to make it into something more, something thrilling and fulfilling.

 

Have you even defined what needs you perceived were unmet in your marriage?

 

You are susceptible to the next one....

 

I feel sorry for your unknowing wife.

 

And your wife doesn't know, right???

[Dexter Morgan]

dex: he was talking about the ap,not the bs here...

 

uh, he was talking to both as evidenced, for example, by saying such things as "BS, you will NEVER know everything."

 

He was speaking to the BSs in that line.

[silktricks]

Regarding the fog, my wife says I seemed totally fine and couldn't believe I was lying like I was. I knew exactly what I was doing during the affair. No excuses.

 

About that "fog" thing. I've never been exactly sure what it is or supposed to be.... but I never thought it was not knowing what you were doing kinda thing.

 

Since I'm not very good at abstract discussion, I'll use my own experience. My husband knew what he was doing, it's not like he had any excuses for his actions, or tried to make any for that matter, but nonetheless, he wasn't thinking rationally at least in some matters.

 

I don't know how much difference it makes if it's an EA or a PA, either - his was a long distance EA primarily and mostly conducted via email. While it was ongoing, there wasn't a single solitary thing that went wrong anywhere - whether it be his work, my work, the house, the kids, the vehicles, the animals, etc. that he took responsibility for. Every single blessed thing was someone else's fault according to him - quite often mine. Let me tell you, that was NOT the man I had known for a large number of years.

 

The man I knew was fairly laid back and easy going and very easy to communicate with. He turned into an obsessive nervous person who I could barely hold a conversation with. At the time I thought much of this was because of the changes I had wrought in our relationship, but it wasn't. Was this the "fog" people speak of? I don't know. I do know that after he was physically in the presence of the woman a few times that he started to change back, and by the time he actually told me about what happened he was pretty much back to the person I had always known.

[Spark1111]

Samprez, a question, or did we run you off.

 

Why couldn't we BSs know everything, if we needed to?

 

Why or what is so devastating you feel you could not disclose it to you BS if need be???

 

Is it your wife you are protecting from the truth?

 

Or is it yourself?

 

We CAN believe what is said during the course of your affair. Hell, half of us discovered the emails, texts, cell phone bills, pictures, bank statements, hotels, dinners, trips and gifts...etc. That's why we are reeling for 3 to 5 years afterwards.

 

Who are you protecting?

 

What triggered you???? And why???

[Snowflower]

I absolutely hear what you're saying (it's like being sort-of pregnant).

 

I slipped and fell. Is it any wonder the phrase is "falling" in love? I fell when I shouldn't have (or some would say should not have been able to). I do not dispute that.

 

I guess what I meant about "part" was that I continued to show her love, give her attention and time, remain with her and support her - everything a husband should give a wife, except for fidelity. I didn't walk out on her and leave her stranded. If anything, during the A she often commented on how it seemed I was being a little more romantic, loving, caring, etc. than usual (a little, because she didn't complain before that those were absent).

 

I just erased what I was going to say because it made me realize this:

 

I was able to remain physically faithful to my wife for a very very long time. I then fell into an emotional affair, which totally caught me by surprise. Once I was in that, I was hooked in love with the OW, and it led to the physical affair.

 

Maybe all guys aren't like this, but I would NEVER have a cheap one-night stand with someone (at a meeting, a hooker, etc.) My infidelity absolutely started with the emotional aspect of the relationship, and I never realized it was happening and what power it would have over me (or how I would give myself up to its powers) once it started.

 

I said on another thread, I wish I had read "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass 2 years ago.

 

 

Okay, I really appreciate your honest here, drmcdreamy but I think you are still in denial, big time.

 

Does your wife know about your affair? I feel so sorry for her. Here she was enjoying increased affection, romance and caring from you...I'm sure she enjoyed it and yet you were already emotionally attached to another woman. How devastating this will be for your wife to learn, if she hasn't already.

 

As for the 'cheap' one night stand comment. I'm sorry but that just smacks of arrogance. My husband I guess was one of those 'cheap' guys who had a ONS at a conference. He at least hated what he did--he wasn't proud of it and didn't act like everything was hunky-dory afterward with me-even though I didn't find out for awhile. I could have never trusted my husband again if he acted as you describe you acted--all loving and affectionate with me while involved in EMR and falling in love with another woman. Instead, my husband was miserable and depressed afterward.

 

I'm sorry...but reading your post makes me feel like if an affair had for some reason had to happen in my marriage, and it did, that it didn't happen for my husband the way you describe your affair. I feel almost lucky.

 

I think you are minimizing and in serious denial.

[eeyore1981]

Wow. Really. I feel like I am vicariously getting an insight into my husband's head.

 

I am a BS.

 

I have been married for 25 years, together 26. A lot of those years were pretty rocky. I felt vulnerable, hurt, low self-esteem, etc. during those years.

 

I went to H and tried to work on our marriage. H wasn't having any of it, so we would split up, or I would ask for a divorce. A few times he even asked for a divorce. Then he would decide he wanted to work it out. To explain, I never wanted a divorce, and I never lied about it. Just like right now, I don't want this divorce, but I will get it, and I will learn to live with it, because I have to.

 

But here's the big news flash. During those rocky times, I was hit on by many men. Many of these men I found quite attractive, some even delicious. But I never, and I mean NEVER had any kind of affair, ever. So you WS's out there may be able to fool some people with that "it just happened" bs, but not me. Get real. I have had many, many male friends all of my life. A few times when I was single, the friendship blossomed into lovers, and that was okay. When I was married, if a male friend started trying to move in that direction, I gently but firmly kept it in the friendship category. I could have chosen, CHOSEN, in that moment to let it go on and see where it lead, but I didn't, because I was MARRIED, and MARRIED to me meant there were things that were only for my husband, no matter how much of an @ss he might be at the time, and I am not just talking about sex, I am talking about the intimate things between a H and a W.

My husband cheated. It has made me crazy. I have thought repeatedly having an affair of my own would make us even, and would, most importantly, save me from the craziness of my husband's affair. I met a man, I thought he was cute. I ran into him again. He gave signs he was interested. I gave a couple of signs back. I ran into him again, and he said he was going somewhere in a couple of days, and I should meet him there. I said ok. I thought about it, and I didn't go. Again, CHOICE made by me. I have decided I would rather divorce my husband than do this horrible thing to him he has done to me.

Some of you people who cheat, you just blow my mind. A car-jacking just happens, an affair is because you made it happen. If you are hurting now because of the stupid choices you made, tough sh*t. You have no one to blame but yourself.

[eeyore1981]

We have the power to say 'no'.

 

It doesn't really matter how many people one can fall in love with. When you marry that option is off the table and it isn't a luxury to indulge in or explore. If people would simply exercise self control and tell themselves 'no', they'd save themselves a heap of trouble... not to mention saving everyone else in the mix the headaches that eventually ensue.

 

Exactly. Because you want it you think you are entitled to have it is a crappy way to live your life and treat the people in it. Grow up.

[Mr. Lucky]

So when you post that you can betray "part of a commitment", from my perspective, it makes no sense. There is no commitment, and therefor a cheap shot. I'll try to do better...

When a WS says "I love my wife", what they mean is "I love what I get from my wife". Therefore it's easy for him to love both women as he's getting something from both. He's obviously blind to the fact that he owes something in return. He can talk about commitment as long as he leaves off "to each other"...

 

Mr. Lucky

[eeyore1981]

Samprez and Drmcdreamy:

 

While my opinions remain the same, I wanted to apologize for addressing them with such anger.

 

I came to this forum to try and find some way to understand what has happened to my marriage, in an effort to deal with all the hurt and pain my husband will not help me get past. Whether I agree with people like you or not, at least you have been willing to try to explain your thought processes, which is more than I can say for my spouse.

 

My emotions were running very high last night when I started reading this thread, and I should have stepped back and gotten them under control before I responded, but I didn't. That is on me, and I apologize for that.

[samprez]

Samprez, a question, or did we run you off.

 

Why couldn't we BSs know everything, if we needed to?

 

Why or what is so devastating you feel you could not disclose it to you BS if need be???

 

Is it your wife you are protecting from the truth?

 

Or is it yourself?

 

We CAN believe what is said during the course of your affair. Hell, half of us discovered the emails, texts, cell phone bills, pictures, bank statements, hotels, dinners, trips and gifts...etc. That's why we are reeling for 3 to 5 years afterwards.

 

Who are you protecting?

 

What triggered you???? And why???

 

I NEVER RUN!!!

 

Answers:

 

I am not holding anything back, what I was referring to were things that I had even forgotten but that really embarrass me now. When your affair ends and you are dealing with DDay, you tend to focus on the here and now. In my case, I was working with my wife, mourning the end of the affair (yes, it's true, I missed her) and focusing on work. Lots of things going on, so I wasn't able to really think about every conversation, IM or text message that was exchanged.

 

It's now exactly a year since things got heated up. I have triggers all over the place. Dates, movies on tv, songs on the radio, I see the car she drives on the road, the weather, etc..and it reminds me of the interactions at the beginning of the affair. She showed up at my office a few times and texted me from the parking lot. I forgot about that as I was fighting for my life. There's a movie on Showtime right now that we snuck out and saw together. I remembered the movie, but seeing a few scenes from it again reminded me of what I said to her that day about how I felt about her.

 

My point is that there are many small things that go on in a LTA that you simply don't recall but come crashing back at a single time. It's hard to sit down near Dday and outline them. Harsh reality? I told her I loved her at that movie, stroking her hair and holding her hand. Do you want that detail? I forgot about the specifics until I saw that movie again. This is natural and I discussed this in IC.

 

The guilt that is associated with that stuff is huge. I know details about her family, her kids, her husband her daily routine that also make me feel terrible. Knowing things and having intimacy in conversation is a big deal.

 

People like Chrome want people like me to pay the price and what they don't understand is that if you are truly remorseful, you pay everyday. My IC told me last time that I've been as hard on myself as anyone he's ever seen and it's ok to let go a little. I can't because I can't put Humpty Dumpty together again.

 

More later. Me run, never. It's part of why I can't reconsile my affair.

[redtail]

... and while this farmer may not get the huge returns in one season... he has the comfort of knowing that he will have abundance year after year... after year.

 

Wow, very nice post !

[Devil Inside]

• The Fog of the Affair: This doesn't exist.
  

I guess this would depend on what your definition of the Fog is. I do not think that it is something that is completely handicapping and takes over your life outside of the emotions and cognition concerning the A, your AP, and your BS. From my experience the Fog is what created such an intense attraction to my xOW. I think my feeling were real, but they were created in a very false environment...one that cannot be duplicated outside an A. That said, I do not believe that the Fog is an excuse for the behavior. For that we have to be responsible and accountable.

 

 

 

• That it is one AP's fault more than the other. Bunk.
  

Yes and no. I think both parties have to be accountable for the A...if they both knew it was an A. There are some situations where the MM/MW has not been honest with the AP.

 

• The conflict of having been involved like this doesn't go away easily.
  

I agree. NC is what you use to help create a distance from the triangle...but it doesn't mean all emotions will just go away. It is important to note that all involved will also need a lot of time to resolve their hurt emotions as well.

 

• BS, you will NEVER know everything.
  

Nobody ever knows everything.

 

• The AP's are responsible to each other for the outcome of their actions.
  

Adults must be accountable for their own actions. Entering into an affair is a bad choice that comes with horrible consequences..and as an adult you must be accountable.

 

• Lastly. If you have an affair, you lose control of what happens next in your life.
  

Again...what you do as an adult is up to you...but there are consequences to all actions.

[eeyore1981]

Okay, WSer, you have put yourself out here, so I want to use you to my advantage if possible.

 

It isn't just my husband, but people I have known, and stories I have read in here of people who cheat that I can't seem to understand, especially since I can so relate to having some major unhappiness in my marriage.

 

So a person gets married. Things aren't going well. What does that person tell themselves to justify looking for someone else, finding someone else, betraying their marriage, and lying about it while they are doing it vs. leaving the marriage?

[foreal]

What does that person tell themselves to justify looking for someone else, finding someone else, betraying their marriage, and lying about it while they are doing it vs. leaving the marriage?

 

I asked the same thing..here is the link:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t198004/

 

It all comes down to they thought more of themselves than anyone else.

[jj33]

Samprez what a great post.

 

I totally agree with you about the fog. I think "the fog" is a nice way of saying I made choices that I now regret because they hurt you.

 

When what it really means is at the time you werent my main concern. I didnt want to hurt you, and I will forever be sorry that the choices I made at that time caused you pain.

 

I am several years out of the affair and it still haunts us both. We dont speak about the past but its clear from his behavior that he hasnt totally reconnected with his spouse. I dont think its easy for anyone in the triangle.

 

I hope you and your wife are doing well.

 

jj

[samprez]

Okay, WSer, you have put yourself out here, so I want to use you to my advantage if possible.

 

It isn't just my husband, but people I have known, and stories I have read in here of people who cheat that I can't seem to understand, especially since I can so relate to having some major unhappiness in my marriage.

 

So a person gets married. Things aren't going well. What does that person tell themselves to justify looking for someone else, finding someone else, betraying their marriage, and lying about it while they are doing it vs. leaving the marriage?

 

It's called cognitive dissonance. It's a psychological state that allows you to justify your behavior by making the pieces fit to allow you to function. See, I went to IC. We all do it everyday for everything we do. It's what allows us to keep our compasses straight. For someone who is in an affair, the CD allows you to justify things by saying; "see, she really isn't nice to me when I'm upset" so therefore, this other woman is and what we're doing is ok.

 

The reality is for me, I didn't think I had a troubled marriage when my relationship cranked up. It started out with little innocent chats and got progressively more intimate with the OW. I knew my OW from years ago, so we had a familiarity already in place. We were catching up, reconnecting and then we starting crossing the line. In my mind, only speaking for me, I had always liked her. Now I was wondering why we didn't work out 20 years ago and if this was the one. I remember thinking like that. Once I went down that path, I was in a different place.

 

I can't speak to your husband, but I'm sure he did a lot of justifying. You have to maintain the affair.