Frightening sings of CP in my relationship - For those in CP relationships

[seoa]

Do you think talking about the root cause and concentrating on that would have helped your relationship?

 

Yes I do... That's what I find so frustrating - because of his nightmare divorce, he'd been forced into counselling, and was therefore reasonably emotionally literate - he *did* go and get help (and make progress) with the things that got raised while we were going out together. I (foolishly?) thought that I couldn't ask for more - what 40+ single guy doesn't have issues with relationships (if he didn't have baggage of some sort - divorced, widowed, whatever - he'd be in a relationship already wouldn't he!)...

 

He used to find it helpful to identify his issues with other people's... so yes I think it would have made a difference e.g. for him to have read that it was normal CP behaviour to demand perfection from a relationship, and sabotage it when perfection wasn't there...

 

He sabotaged our relationship, out of fear that it *might* not work out (if an issue got resolved, he'd just find another one to worry about!), and ultimately he couldn't handle that level of uncertainty and fear...

 

And that's been breaking my heart... Although today I am having a "he has too many issues for me to want him back" morning... Very interesting...

[leap83]

Yes I do... That's what I find so frustrating - because of his nightmare divorce, he'd been forced into counselling, and was therefore reasonably emotionally literate - he *did* go and get help (and make progress) with the things that got raised while we were going out together. I (foolishly?) thought that I couldn't ask for more - what 40+ single guy doesn't have issues with relationships (if he didn't have baggage of some sort - divorced, widowed, whatever - he'd be in a relationship already wouldn't he!)...

 

He used to find it helpful to identify his issues with other people's... so yes I think it would have made a difference e.g. for him to have read that it was normal CP behaviour to demand perfection from a relationship, and sabotage it when perfection wasn't there...

 

He sabotaged our relationship, out of fear that it *might* not work out (if an issue got resolved, he'd just find another one to worry about!), and ultimately he couldn't handle that level of uncertainty and fear...

 

And that's been breaking my heart... Although today I am having a "he has too many issues for me to want him back" morning... Very interesting...

 

Sounds all too familiar. The guy I was seeing also broke it off because of the same fear. He kept saying "I don't want to go through this again" and whenever I asked him "Through what?" he said "through break up... through losing someone you're close to..." and I said "why d you think you'll lose someone?" and he said "because either way I will lose you.... i stick in the relationship and I end up hurting you which makes it irreperable... I exit the relationship and we don't stay friends, we lose connection until I work out these issues and I again risk losing you. It's the same pattern." I think he acknowledges that there is a problem. But I don't think he has a solution for it.

 

To be honest, even if I were to talk with him about this, I wouldn't know where/how to start up the convo. Unless I handed him the book and told him to read it and then to call me. However, I don't think he would read it.

 

It's scary to finally KNOW as to why he left me. It's very scary. It's almost insane.

 

So I'm guessing you're not in touch right now? are you friends?

[Hkizzle]

After reading the top reviews for he's scared, she's scared on amazon I decided not to buy it. They say it's crap because although it describes the conditions so well, it offers no good solution. What you think?

[leap83]

Hkizzle: That's not true IMO. At the end of the book, it gives you EXACTLY what you need to do as a passive/active CP. That's why my views on my relationship with this guy have changed. Before, I was all about reaching out and listening to him. The book clearly told me to run for the hills and told me exactly why this won't work. It gave me a piece of mind as well - to understand him and to understand myself - to understand WHY he does what he does and WHY I do what I do.

 

I was generally confused and upset about this whole situation - searching for answers to questions he was not able to answer. I wasn't able to answer it. By reading the book, it helped me understand where he was coming from and helped me see that I'm also suffering from some kind of CP.

 

They don't need to really tell you what you need to do (even though they DO go step by step through what you need to do - you just need to listen to what they have to say... if you don't then you're kind of screwed). By the end of the book, YOU know you need to take care of yourself and you also know what you need to do. I was lost before, but now everything is very much clear. Whatever comes my way in the next 2 weeks, I can take the punch, because I UNDERSTAND the situation and know what is the best thing to do. They helped me find a solution to the problem instead of sifting through ridiculous amount of info without the path to solution and getting frustrated/depressed/annoyed at my stupidity to fall for someone like him.

 

I didn't buy the book. I went to Indigo and sat there and read it. It took me 2 days.

[Trialbyfire]

Bottom line leap, people don't change for others. They change for themselves.

 

Regardless if your ex is a lifelong CP or just a situational one, he couldn't commit to you and that's all that matters. And yes, I've had it happen before too so I'm not trying to brutalize your feelings.

 

The book you're reading has the right answers with CPs. When you get a whiff of it, run for the hills.

[GrayClouds]

How? Well, it's not simple.

 

It's a long road. I might get tired and want to give up, but I'm determined to work this out by the end of this year. I'm determined to resolve the internal conflict within me. I feel it's about time.

 

 

I think the challange if finding a way to appreciate real intimacy. If you spend your childhood chasing it from a parent, it really hard not to go out a pick people who keep us in that familiar place. I think for many of us we feel when things feel secure, we feel the less safe. We find someone who will keep us pushing, unbalanced because we are use to that. It is really hard to give up even though it is not doing us any good.

 

Leap, thanks for sharing.

[leap83]

Trial: You're 100% right. You're not brutalizing my feelings at all. If you told me this like 2 weeks ago, however, I would have flipped out on you (because then I didn't understand the realities of this). In the end, if he wants to keep me around (either be my friend or try to go for that second chance - which btw is not guaranteed at all), he will HAVE to change. He will also have to work on himself, get himself together and prove it to me BEFORE I enter into a relationship with him again. It's pretty simple - if I see change in him, I will take his suggestions into consideration. Otherwise, out he goes and far away from me. He would make a fine friend though, so I'm not tossing out that just yet - but he'll still have to prove to me that he can be my friend. Nothing else matters. I'm determined to change and I will change. He might wonder the next time we meet what has gotten into me, but what he'll see is change.

 

GrayClouds: Thank you for participating in this discussion. I understand completely where you're coming from. Who wants a boring individual around them? no one. But it's about balance - life is about balance, finding the middle ground. You can be adventurous yet willing to commit; interesting yet willing to commit; reciprocate love AND willing to commit. It's not that hard. I have to work through my issues with my father and I actually believe that the only way to do that is to actually face him and tell him everything I think of him and what he did to his face. Plus counseling. I want stability. I want a healthy, normal relationship and the guy I was seeing KNOWS that. He even said "I know what you want - a HEALTHY relationship and I can't give you that now." So, it will take time, but I'm beginning to see some changes in me... within me... I think I'm on the right track.

 

He will call this week or next week. We'll see where that tosses me in terms of my emotions - hearing his voice. I won't pick up the phone but I'm sure he'll be leaving me a msg....

[jj23]

I just read through this thread and it made me tear up!

 

My now ex, which is still hard to say, totally steered the relationship toward commitment - we moved in together, worked on home improvements together, made plans for the future, got a joint checking account, got engaged... he bails 6 weeks before the wedding because something in our relationship has "changed" and he "doesn't know what" and "doesn't know how to explain it" and "doesn't know how to fix it."

 

I'm devastated, and I just wish someone could, I don't know... convince him that it's okay to be a little scared, but it's also okay to commit to the one you love. He said we were very happy together for a long time, and then something changed. He also said that he loved me and "probably always will." He's had other relationships - no other engagements, though... am I wrong to think that if I give him some time and space and show him somehow that it's okay to come back, that he might come around? I feel like no one has ever loved him this much.

 

He originally suggested we postpone the wedding to work on "us" - to see if the wedding coming up was what was causing it. I cried over this and asked a million questions about what it would mean to postpone it... like, are we still engaged? (He said, yes, we'll still be engaged) -- I feel like I made it too hard. Fight or flight, you know?

 

Now the wedding is cancelled, and he's staying somewhere else, while I'm in our house. What on earth do I do now? Besides give him space for a while...

[Serena2009]

Also I forgot to add:

 

They're almost always unhappy. Unhappy about their job, their family, their life in general. They sulk in misery. Why are they unhappy? Because they always believe they deserve better and can find better - perfect is the word I'm looking for. My guy was a mix of narcissistic and claustrophobic CP - having tendency to lean towards one or the other. They believe there is ALWAYS something better around the corner. Something PERFECT. They believe in "soul mates" yet they're never happy if they do meet someone who might be in fact the right person for them.

 

They're also CONSUMED in their thoughts. They might tell you they love you, but there is always "but...." in their head. They're CONSTANTLY looking for a way out. Some of them go to the extremes - they enter a relationship and right from the start, they plan on how to break it off. My guy wasn't so extreme but he was pre-occupied with analyzing and thinking about everything and anything.

 

They never seem like they can relax and enjoy the moment. They're constantly worried, but pretend they're not.

 

When I say over analysis - I mean breaking down relationship into small bits and pieces. They feel guilty... oh yes they do. And sometimes they admit it. My guy thought he would never be able to give me what I deserve (he's right on that one) and he felt guilty all the time about that.

 

Leap, thanks for the excellent posts. General unhappiness, seeking perfectionism, over-analysis and constant worry are definately features of my guys personality. I pulled out my copy of "He's Scared; She's Scared" last night and something struck me with regard to why it's so difficult to let go and move on from these relationships.

 

Carter and Sokol (2009) state:

 

"When two people give a relationship their best efforts and it still doesn't work, letting go is painful but it occurs in stages, making it more bearable. By the time the breakup occurs, you feel as much a sense of relief as you do of loss. Relationships with active commitmentphobics, on the other hand, do not deteriorate in this fashion. These relationships stop working because one partner stops trying. They also tend to take sudden turns for the worse, often when the closeness is at its peak. This abrupt swing is a setup for an incredible crash, and that means an extraordinary amount of pain for the passive partner" (p. 317-318).

 

"A relationship with an active partner is intense, addictive, and a living hell to kick. But the bottom line is this: It will never be over until you decide to 'kick it,' and it's a decision only you can make. . . . This person doesn't want to let go either. This person is much too conflicted. Men and women such as this can go back and forth in their minds for years. Even when they never again speak to their old loves, they are still carrying around these conflicts with them" (p. 318).

 

"These relationships tend to feel unusually close and connected well until the end. In fact it is the intensity of the bonding and the absence of major disagreements that is so seductive. It's what makes you begin to feel this could be 'the one.' That's why the ending comes as a such a shock. It has to make you seriously question just how 'connected' you and your partner really were.

The active runners we interviewed consistently made it clear how deeply connected they were to their partners. If what they say is true, then how can they walk away so easily? The explanation is surprisingly simple: Active runners can walk away because they are thoroughly confident that their partner will take them back should they have a change of heart.

Esentially, active runners are not really commited to leaving. They have contingency plans. If they can't make it alone, they believe it is always possible to return. Sure, it might require a lot of begging, pleading, and promising, but it can be done. Your active partner truly believes this option exists, and you are probably the one who made that sense of security possible" (p. 320).

 

A major lightbulb went on for me reading this section. My CP guy said: "I can't believe you want to continue because what if it deteriorates." It seemed so illogical and twisted to me at the time. I remember thinking how does one preserve a relationship in its current state??!! Reading this it makes me think perhaps the bailing prior to deterioration leaves a feeling that return is possible. Anyway, I was shocked to read that active runners are "thoroughly confident that their partner will take them back should they have a change of heart" and "believe it is always possible to return."

[jj23]

I sympathize with the description of the end of a relationship with someone who is commitment phobic, but my guy did not display the other things - you said like, being generally unhappy, over analyzing... that wasn't him at all.

 

The other stuff fits though - it's like he's giving up because our relationship got a little harder. He decided not to work at it for fear that it would never recover.

 

Is there any hope that he'll want to come back, as the book author's suggest? He knows, at this point, that I'd take him back.

 

Ugh. So frustrating. I'm soo not ready to let go of this.

[caramel c]

Yes you're right about this one. They APPEAR. They have a MASK.

 

An example: I asked my guy this: "When you met me, were you looking for a fling or a long term relationship?" and he said "A long term relationship. I want a long term relationship." He wants it yet he fears it.

 

When talking about future.... he said to me "I want 2 kids and a house with a porch" (exactly what I want). It's words that keep you thinking he is ready to commit. The actions though don't match up.

 

The funny thing is, I never asked him ANYTHING about the future. He brought these things up himself. He took me places of significance. He is the one who sat down and had a heart to heart talk with my sister. He initiated all of it.

[caramel c]

Also I forgot to add:

 

They're almost always unhappy. Unhappy about their job, their family, their life in general. They sulk in misery. Why are they unhappy? Because they always believe they deserve better and can find better - perfect is the word I'm looking for. My guy was a mix of narcissistic and claustrophobic CP - having tendency to lean towards one or the other. They believe there is ALWAYS something better around the corner. Something PERFECT. They believe in "soul mates" yet they're never happy if they do meet someone who might be in fact the right person for them.

 

They're also CONSUMED in their thoughts. They might tell you they love you, but there is always "but...." in their head. They're CONSTANTLY looking for a way out. Some of them go to the extremes - they enter a relationship and right from the start, they plan on how to break it off. My guy wasn't so extreme but he was pre-occupied with analyzing and thinking about everything and anything.

 

One night we were sitting and enjoying the silence, when he says to me "What are you thinking about?" I said "Nothing in particular" (I really wasn't thinking anything). He says "You look like you're thinking about something." And I was like "Thinking about what?" He says "I don't know." This came up ALL the time. We would kiss and he would ask me what I'm thinking about (even though I wasn't thinking of anything in particular... just enjoying the moment). They never seem like they can relax and enjoy the moment. They're constantly worried, but pretend they're not.

 

When I say over analysis - I mean breaking down relationship into small bits and pieces. They feel guilty... oh yes they do. And sometimes they admit it. My guy thought he would never be able to give me what I deserve (he's right on that one) and he felt guilty all the time about that.

 

Most of this sounds familiar, except the last part about not being able to give me what I deserve. He never said that, he just told me HE couldn't do this anymore.

 

Especially the fact that he overanalyzed and worried very often about various things in his life.

[seoa]

Mine invented some August-2009 deadline I apparently imposed for getting engaged... Hello, I'm not that crazy!?!?!

 

What I said (in around May) was: if you've not *started* dealing with your fear-issues in, say, another 6 months, then I'm likely to take that as a sign you're not too interested in this relationship going anywhere...

[caramel c]

Nope - Mimi is right, these are active-CP indicators... My ex was the same...

 

The underlying CP issue is 'fear of rejection', so it's quite common for them to want to lock things down insanely quickly... Mine was talking about shopping for engagement rings after 3 weeks, I was the one saying "erm, I love that idea, let's revisit it in a few months". He was engaged to his first wife within 4 weeks, I wasn't willing to risk a repeat of that...!

 

I've got 'He's Scared, She's Scared' on order, because I want to check I wasn't colluding - but I really don't think that I was. I have pretty healthy self-esteem, and I challenged behaviours that weren't OK - he admitted to the phobic physical reactions about 2-3 months in, and went to see his therapist, which seemed to help. He was really working on his issues, but unfortunately we (I) didn't discover about CP until after we broke up, so we were mostly dealing with symptoms /behaviours rather than the root cause.

 

What were the phobic physical reactions?

[seoa]

What were the phobic physical reactions?

for him, predominantly severe 'stress-stomach'...

[leap83]

I just read through this thread and it made me tear up!

 

My now ex, which is still hard to say, totally steered the relationship toward commitment - we moved in together, worked on home improvements together, made plans for the future, got a joint checking account, got engaged... he bails 6 weeks before the wedding because something in our relationship has "changed" and he "doesn't know what" and "doesn't know how to explain it" and "doesn't know how to fix it."

 

I'm devastated, and I just wish someone could, I don't know... convince him that it's okay to be a little scared, but it's also okay to commit to the one you love. He said we were very happy together for a long time, and then something changed. He also said that he loved me and "probably always will." He's had other relationships - no other engagements, though... am I wrong to think that if I give him some time and space and show him somehow that it's okay to come back, that he might come around? I feel like no one has ever loved him this much.

 

He originally suggested we postpone the wedding to work on "us" - to see if the wedding coming up was what was causing it. I cried over this and asked a million questions about what it would mean to postpone it... like, are we still engaged? (He said, yes, we'll still be engaged) -- I feel like I made it too hard. Fight or flight, you know?

 

Now the wedding is cancelled, and he's staying somewhere else, while I'm in our house. What on earth do I do now? Besides give him space for a while...

 

Your words sound all too familiar (but I'm guessing you saw what I went through). Same pattern, same words - "Something is wrong with our relationship but I can't pinpoint as to what it is. Everything I said up to this day has been the truth, but something seems off. My gut is telling me it is."

 

You need to listen to me now. Calm down. I know that is VERY hard to do but right now you need to take care of yourself. The first thing you need to do is go STRICT NC. No e-mails, no texts, no phone, no Fb, NO NOTHING. Trust me. If I knew this right away, I would have done it. The more you try to show him you love him... the more you try to show him that you're perfect for him... the more you try to tell him that everything will be okay - THE MORE HE'LL PULL AWAY. I made that mistake and it got me to the point where I am right now. So, don't let it happen to you.

 

Second thing is get counseling. It's tough to get through this so you'll need to vent. You'll need to let it out. Either do that, or vent here. Surround yourself with friends and family.

 

Thirdly, move on. Get it in your head that he's NEVER coming back. It's OVER. Don't hold out false hope because then you're not moving on. Continue with your life like never happened (easier said than done I know but trust me). Go out. Find a hobby. Get in shape.

 

Fourthly, if he calls, don't pick up. Ignore, ignore, ignore. Not until he and you feel like he is ready to change do you give him a chance to speak. Don't let him believe he has that second chance (another mistake I have made with my guy). In your books, he screwed up and he's OUT. Let him believe that.

 

Trust me. Pull away and he might come to you. However, don't hope for that. Move on. What attracts these men is the chase so if he believes he can't have you, he'll be back. Trust me. If he wants to be with you/remain in touch, he'll find a way to do it. Let him come to you. Don't chase him.

 

I'm really hoping you haven't been answering the phone and listening to him and trying to convince him that he's wrong. If you have, STOP right now. He'll drift away even more. You have the strength to do this. Gather it. Do it.

[leap83]

The funny thing is, I never asked him ANYTHING about the future. He brought these things up himself. He took me places of significance. He is the one who sat down and had a heart to heart talk with my sister. He initiated all of it.

 

I asked this after he pulled a bomb on me. I was full of questions. So, I honestly asked him.

 

Before this however, I remember one night we were driving and he said something about his dry sense of humour (I was tired and didn't get his joke haha... until like awhile later) and he said "Don't worry. There's plenty of time to get used to those jokes. Years."

 

One time he said he wished we would just get married and skip this whole step. We talked about the house we'd like to get. How many kids we'd want to have. Weddings.

[leap83]

Serena: Thanks for quoting the book. It reminded me of a couple of things I forgot from the book. I offered him a second chance - wow. I stated that I would be around and that he can come to me. I should have stood my ground - no friends, no relationship. Because he got VERY anxious when I told him that we couldn't be friends. I remember him going "Wow..." and then being silent for 10 minutes. I should have stuck with it.

[leap83]

jj23: I would characterize your guy at the beginning of that stage. At first my guy was happy (at least he pretended to be). The more we got serious, the more I saw worry on his face. This whole thing dragged on for a month and a half in my relatioship. It was every day, all day, talking, pushing/pulling, getting annoyed... I pushed him away as far as I could and now there's nothing left of our relationship.

 

Don't hope that he will be back. If you do, he won't be. Let it go. Move on.

[Trialbyfire]

I think the easiest way to know if someone is or isn't a CP, whether it's situational or lifelong, is their commitment level. If actions and words mesh, you've got someone who isn't confused. If the two don't line up, no matter which is positive or negative, something doesn't smell right.

 

So, with this kind of warning flag, run for the hills if someone feeds you full of bull, be it words or actions. All in, is the kind of person you want.

[jj23]

But what I'm trying to say is that his actions and words meshed perfectly... up until about two months from the wedding date. He wanted to keep moving forward... always talking about the future. When I moved in, we had some heart to hearts... mostly about me being worried, and he was reassuring. Wanted to be in a serious relationship, wanted someone to build a life with. When we discussed getting a joint checking account, I said "you're sure you're okay with this??" and he was like "what do I have to be afraid of?" When we got engaged, he was soo calm the whole weekend (he had taken me away for the weekend) and I commented on how surprised I was and how he had not been nervous at all... he said "what is there to be nervous about?"

 

Yes, all he said was that "something had changed" and he couldn't say what. I asked if he had wanted to marry me, when we got engaged and he said "yes" - I said, "now you don't know if you want to be with me?" and he just said "I don't know."

 

I feel like he knows that he's struggling with something deep inside, and he was trying to just "set me free" so that he wouldn't have to face it.

 

I was in contact with him in the beginning. I did ask for a second chance, I did contact him to tell him I was looking for an apartment (he said "take all the time you need. I messed up your life, I should be looking for a new place") and I contacted him to tell him that I had cancelled all the wedding stuff.

 

I have not contacted him again (no need to) for the last, oh, five days or so. Not really sure what to do. I'm not really in a position to be getting a place on my own - I honestly don't know if I can afford it with this job in this town. And, besides, he said I could take all the time I need... he's the one who left our house.

[Serena2009]

"Something is wrong with our relationship but I can't pinpoint as to what it is. Everything I said up to this day has been the truth, but something seems off. My gut is telling me it is."

 

Leap, the ole "gut" stikes again!! My guy blamed it on his "gut" too because there was nothing wrong with the relationship!! He said among other things regarding breaking up: "There's no logical reason and usually I'm a logical person. I love you and you're awesome. It's great now but what if six months down the road . . . I have a gut feeling and I have to listen to my gut."

 

BTW, during his unexpected visit after 5 weeks NC, I told him "your gut su@#s!!" and that really what his gut feeling was about was anxiety about taking it to the next level (which by the way I wasn't pushing for, HE was).

 

Caramel and Seoa -- physical symptoms -- stomach (gut) -- maybe we should all buy stock in immodium AD!! I hear it cures "butterflies in the stomach."

[jj23]

Sorry to be all about me, but I also wanted to say that this wasn't just a couple of months for me... we were together for a year and a half, and engaged for 8 months. He told me he loved me all the time. Heck, he still says he loves me.

 

Could it be that he's not chronically commitment phobic, but that when it came right down to it, he was scared of the wedding and is in like, CP Panic Mode?

 

He's kind of put himself in exile now... he's staying at his parent's summer place about 40 min. from where we live - still going to work and such, but spending his nights alone with no tv or computer. Lots of time to think it over, I guess.

[seoa]

Caramel and Seoa -- physical symptoms -- stomach (gut) -- maybe we should all buy stock in immodium AD!! I hear it cures "butterflies in the stomach."

ha ha - or buy them some fluffy hot water bottles...!!

 

and on the "fear of the future" thing, to quote from our hero, Steven Carter ("Getting to Commitment", rather than "He's Scared, She's Scared"):

 

Many people sabotage their relationships because they don’t allow themselves to enjoy what they have at that moment. As soon as they start feeling comfortable in a relationship, they sabotage that comfort by time-travelling into the future to their confused picture of what the relationship might become. I know that I’ve done this. Sure, everything is fine right now, I would say to myself, but what would things be like if we stayed together?

 

I would do this automatically, never understanding that the reason I could so easily shift my focus to all these future concerns was that everything was working so well in the moment. The relationship had potential. Things were basically good. This was a hideous habit that completely undermined my ability to enjoy what I had, as well as any chance of actually reaching that future.

 

If you are going to be asking yourself questions, they should be questions such as, “How do I feel being with this person?” “Is this person being kind and honest?” “Am I being open and honest?” “Are we getting along, and if not, why not?”

[GrayClouds]

GrayClouds: You can be adventurous yet willing to commit.

That sounds like a very good life.

 

 

 

Another question, Are CP likely to be cheaters? Or end relationship that way?