trust is lost after EA and I still feel lied to

[whirlygig]

"Whirlygig, Am I reading this correctly? The bolded part -- do you mean to say that your H has cheated on you before? And you know this, for sure?"

--

 

 

Yes, 3 or so years ago he told me about the EA, which may have been a PA for all I know. It happened with a co-worker -- with the "religious still-virgin at 27 years old woman", if I am supposed to believe that. (I'd gone into some details about it in my original post) The only reason he told me about the A then was because I caught him hiding his bonus checks, which had always come via automatic draft before. I questioned him about what else he was hiding or lying about and he told me sorta thinking I already knew. I don't think it would have come out otherwise since he'd kept it from me for 7+ years.

 

I can see, reflecting on the issue of *image* that he wants to be seen in a good light and just cannot stand being criticized. At all.

[whirlygig]

"What I think of your H confiding all this to you now, after 17 years of marriage, is "Why Now"? Why is your H choosing to tell you this now? "

 

--

 

It was a rare moment of frank honesty and reflection after a very, very unpleasant bit of ranting he had done. And yes, maybe he senses that I am just about fed up with all this in spite of the toll that leaving him would take on the family and on me. And because before... i don't think he believed I would call it quits...

[IfWishesWereHorses]

If you have time read up on Narcisissm a bit, it supposedly begins; with this type of environment and family trauma. My H came forth wtih some "new" information about 20 years into our marriage. Don't know if I believe him or not, doesn't really matter to me though. He could have sought help rather than making his marraige the scapegoat for his problems.

[whirlygig]

If you have time read up on Narcisissm a bit, it supposedly begins; with this type of environment and family trauma. My H came forth wtih some "new" information about 20 years into our marriage. Don't know if I believe him or not, doesn't really matter to me though. He could have sought help rather than making his marraige the scapegoat for his problems.

--

 

Oh, 20 years. Then I only have 3 more to go. (wry laugh, in a 'mood').

 

I agree, if there are issues then an individual can seek help. In fact when H told me his story about the way he has created a 'safe place' where no one can hurt him ,..., and that is who he has become- I suggested he might go for counseling, that he might really benefit from that. But, No no no. He was not receptive to that.

 

Same H who just emailed me saying *he* would like a Mazda Miata for his anniv gift. I nearly fell out of my chair. (my bad, I did ask what he might want)

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Same H who just emailed me saying *he* would like a Mazda Miata for his anniv gift. I nearly fell out of my chair. (my bad, I did ask what he might want)

 

:lmao::lmao: He IS terribly confused!!!!! You're the one who is supposed to get the "pity prize"! I got a Jag for our anniversary that year!

 

No worries about the counseling. It wouldn't help him a bit, would be a waste of time and money.

[whirlygig]

Same H who just emailed me saying *he* would like a Mazda Miata for his anniv gift. I nearly fell out of my chair. (my bad, I did ask what he might want)

 

:lmao::lmao: He IS terribly confused!!!!! You're the one who is supposed to get the "pity prize"! I got a Jag for our anniversary that year!

 

--

 

Well according to him it is my *bad* because I'm not going along with that idea, even if he did mean a used one. We have 3 cars (one for our live at home college aged kid) and a camper (that we plan to sell) in the driveway and don't even have room for a 'toy car'. But again, I am cast in a bad light because: "god forbid anyone have fun". (that was his response). Sorry if I am sounding cynical right now, but I am just so astounded by his chutzpa.

 

I can just imagine the flirting he'd do with that car to zip around in...

[IfWishesWereHorses]

But again, I am cast in a bad light because: "god forbid anyone have fun".

 

Tell him you're all about fun! That you think the money would be better spent on a girls trip to the Bahama's, or Mexico, or Club Med... whatever!

[JumpinJimmy]

WG, I assume it is females that he would like to flirt with? Well he won't be driving that thing. LOL

[LakesideDream]

I have a hard time understanding men who seriously "flirt" while in long term comitted relationships. It's soooooo.... relaxing and fulfilling to come home to someone who loves and cares for you. Why do anything to put that in jepordy?

 

I knew that when I was married too. I was even careful to keep "my eyes to myself" when in public, with pretty women around. Not that it did me any good, LoL.

 

If hubby is cheating, or having an "emotional affair" that's a different matter altogether. An emotional affair is something I probably could not forgive in a future relationship. A physical affair, I know I couldn't. That's totally unexceptional behavior. That you will need to judge in a different light. Your road is a difficult one. I wish you luck.

[Athena]

"What I think of your H confiding all this to you now, after 17 years of marriage, is "Why Now"? Why is your H choosing to tell you this now? "

 

--

 

It was a rare moment of frank honesty and reflection after a very, very unpleasant bit of ranting he had done. And yes, maybe he senses that I am just about fed up with all this in spite of the toll that leaving him would take on the family and on me. And because before... i don't think he believed I would call it quits...

 

Hmm, no, I don't think so Whirlygig... I think he told you at that moment, because he felt so exposed and felt sure that his guilt/wrongdoings were SO OBVIOUS TO YOU that he took the lessor evil and admitted to Something; an affair from 'long ago'... Because, I am guessing he was at that moment involved in a new affair which he absolutely did not want you to discover, but felt sure you could see through his lies (if it weren't for your Need for Proof, you would), so he diverted the line of questioning by admitting to something less of a crime... think about it... why would he have admitted it at all, unless he felt he had to, to throw you off what was then going on under your nose.

[whirlygig]

It was a rare moment of frank honesty and reflection after a very, very unpleasant bit of ranting he had done. And yes, maybe he senses that I am just about fed up with all this in spite of the toll that leaving him would take on the family and on me. And because before... i don't think he believed I would call it quits...

 

"Hmm, no, I don't think so Whirlygig... I think he told you at that moment, because he felt so exposed and felt sure that his guilt/wrongdoings were SO OBVIOUS TO YOU that he took the lessor evil and admitted to Something; an affair from 'long ago'... Because, I am guessing he was at that moment involved in a new affair which he absolutely did not want you to discover, but felt sure you could see through his lies (if it weren't for your Need for Proof, you would), so he diverted the line of questioning by admitting to something less of a crime... think about it... why would he have admitted it at all, unless he felt he had to, to throw you off what was then going on under your nose."

----

 

Athena- I want to thank you for helping me to challenge my assumptions. I'm realizing that many of them (my assumptions and preconceived notions) have been very wrong. Even assuming that my H loves me may be 100% wrong. Needs me, yes, but love.... ???

 

I should clarify that his "rare moment of frank honesty" I was referring to was him finally telling me vital details about his childhood and about his 'mechanism for emotionally guarding himself', not about revealing the EA.

 

He told me about the EA only after I discovered him hiding $ and questioned him further- and this was at least 7 years after the A. And, your theory really makes sense with regards to that. I have always puzzled about why he told me at all, although assumed it was A: because he sorta thought I already knew, and B: because just *maybe* he really wanted to come clean.

 

Ha, I doubt that one by now, and the idea that he was (again) diverting from a bigger issue is more likely. After all, I later did find his emails about inviting a woman over to our house while I was away. So, yeah, maybe in a twisted way he thought I'd believe he confessed all and would not dig more. (But naive me wanted to believe that the invitation was not the way I read it. It cause a blow up but I didn't take the steps I should have then, 3+ years ago. )

 

I am becoming painfully aware at how often he does use diversion with me, from little things to bigger ones. Whether this is a conscious effort or not, who knows. Makes no difference right now...

[Scottdmw]

Hi WG,

 

My heart really goes out to you, it sounds like you are in a very difficult time right now.

 

I feel reading these posts though like people are a little quick to be sure what to do in someone else’s life. I've been on Loveshack for a couple years mostly on the dating section, and it has always struck me that the first and only solution many people offer is “break up”. I feel like that is a very satisfying piece of advice for people to give, it suggests direct action where you can sort of get the power back right away. It’s kind of the breaking up cheering section. I don't feel like it's always the right thing to do though. I also think that people have a strong tendency to see their own story in other people's lives. That is, whatever they went through themselves they are quick to diagnose is the problem someone else has too. Many stories are the same, but at the end of the day every person's story is unique and the endings are all different.

 

Reading your posts I feel like it is possible that all your husband has done is the EA which he confessed to, combined with some boundary problems throughout your marriage. Flirting with people he shouldn't, getting too emotionally close to people. Possibly he does these kinds of things, feels guilty about them, and becomes inordinately defensive about it as a result. I'm not saying this is definitely true, because from what you say it certainly sounds like he's hiding something, just pointing out that it really is a possibility.

 

I understand that these things are wrong and I'm not trying to justify them. But, it is important to keep in mind that every person in the world has some kind of problem. You could leave this man, break up your family, and spend a few years alone, only to end up with a different man with a different problem that might be equally hard to live with. If this is really all that's happening, I would think there's a lot to be said for trying to work it out one way or the other. If this is all that's happening, you could choose to just live with it. You could also choose to put your foot down and try to force your husband to change with the threat of leaving. You could even, if you are feeling particularly strong, selfless, and courageous, try to help guide him into a better life over a period of time with the understanding that he may or may not change.

 

If you believe strongly that there is something going on here, I would suggest that you should look for proof before you leave.

 

I wish you the best in whatever you do,

 

Scott

[eeyore1981]

Scott, this isn't my thread, but I am going to respond anyway.

 

What you said is exactly what most cheaters count on to happen. Keep the BS confused, in doubt, etc, so they will be afraid they are overreacting, making a mountain out of a molehill, etc.

 

Unless an open marriage is agreed on by both parties, having affairs of any kind is wrong. If one of the parties is stepping out, then they have betrayed the trust of the relationship, and it is up to them to repair it. By hiding email accounts, changing passwords, and continuing to have inappropriate contact with members of the opposite sex is not the way to do it, it is that simple.

 

If it is "just" an ea, the person needs to stop, and be open with all things to prove it has stopped and another one hasn't started. If they aren't willing to do that, then what is the BS supposed to do, just be okay with it?

[Athena]

 

What you said is exactly what most cheaters count on to happen. Keep the BS confused, in doubt, etc, so they will be afraid they are overreacting, making a mountain out of a molehill, etc.

 

Additionally, the BS will inevitably be weakened/hurt/messed up by the cr@p the WS puts them through with all the denials.

 

I believe the OP's H is cheating... and is a serial cheater. As long as OP stays in a weakened position of trying to put out an unearned blanket Faith-in-H as he demands, without his doing ANY work to help show her he is trustworthy, she will be Damaged. The longer she puts up with this, the more the damage will be.

[Scottdmw]

If the OP’s spouse is a cheater currently than what you say is true, he is counting on keeping her confused.

 

If all he has done is an EA 17 years ago which he has ended long ago and confessed to, that is an entirely different story. He does not deserve the title of cheater in that case. Yes he may be doing some other things wrong. Everybody does some things wrong in marriage. Maybe his are worse than most, maybe not, we haven't heard his side of the story.

 

My point is that simply telling the OP to divorce him on the spot is not really good advice. It oversimplifies real life. I also don't think it's good advice for someone to say that they are somehow sure that he is a cheater. No one could possibly know that. You could strongly suspect, but be sure? I feel that people are doing the OP a disservice by being so one-sided in their advice. It can easily generate a self-fulfilling prophecy. What if you're wrong? You would then be responsible potentially for yourself actually causing a divorce that didn't need to happen in the first place.

 

I agree with you that he should be open with her and share his passwords and everything. But if he refuses to, what then? Let's just imagine for a minute that he really is innocent of everything except the old EA. Is it really so difficult to imagine that he might feel just a little bit defensive when asked to share all his passwords? Feel like he's being pushed around maybe?

 

Like I said, I think his actions are suspicious too, I agree there is a good chance he is cheating. But, I think the appropriate thing to do is look for proof and try to work the problem rather than just walking out without a word.

 

Scott

[Athena]

My point is that simply telling the OP to divorce him on the spot is not really good advice. It oversimplifies real life. I also don't think it's good advice for someone to say that they are somehow sure that he is a cheater. No one could possibly know that. You could strongly suspect, but be sure? I feel that people are doing the OP a disservice by being so one-sided in their advice. It can easily generate a self-fulfilling prophecy. What if you're wrong? You would then be responsible potentially for yourself actually causing a divorce that didn't need to happen in the first place.

 

 

(...) I think the appropriate thing to do is look for proof and try to work the problem rather than just walking out without a word.

 

Scott

This all makes sense, yes, you are not wrong Scott. I myself went through the hell of getting 'proof' each and every time my H had an affair and denied it... sometimes the admission or evidence only came years after, but it just so happened, in my case, that each and every time I observed his Behavior and realized he was covering up an Affair, he was.

 

This doesn't make me right in my guess that OP's H is having an affair, though, yes I get that. I guess I just feel that it's so irrelevant, trying to catch the sneaking b@$t@rds out -- and all they have to do to protect their cover, is Lie, Lie, Lie -- which they willingly do.

[Athena]

I started a new thread called Screw the Need for Indisputable Proof...

 

Check it out, please contribute...

[whirlygig]

If the OP’s spouse is a cheater currently than what you say is true, he is counting on keeping her confused.

 

If all he has done is an EA 17 years ago which he has ended long ago and confessed to, that is an entirely different story. He does not deserve the title of cheater in that case. Yes he may be doing some other things wrong. Everybody does some things wrong in marriage. Maybe his are worse than most, maybe not, we haven't heard his side of the story. . . . . .

Like I said, I think his actions are suspicious too, I agree there is a good chance he is cheating. But, I think the appropriate thing to do is look for proof and try to work the problem rather than just walking out without a word.

 

Scott

 

THanks, Scott. WH had the EA 11 or so years ago, told me 3 or so yrs ago when i caught him hiding money. He had the gall to blame me for both of these things! Shortlyfter that I discovered emails to another woman (inviting her over when i was out of town). Yes he did concede to give me the passwords at that time, but not in a reassuring way. It was begrdgingly and with little sense of my need for them. He considered it snoopping then and just wanted to get some peace. I *think* that is why.

 

Anyway, he never really made amends to me on an emotional level at that time nor to this day... Says he 'just can't go there' to even talk about it. And he never did anything special to show me he knows how it hurt me and our relationship. It was a quick "sorry", passwords begrudgingly, and that was about it. And my approach to fixing the marriage at the time was the 'doll up and get sexier for your hubby' approach. The "give your husband what he wants" idea to bring us closer again. (not that i withheld sex before but i tried harder to be 'fun'.) And you know what, I did that for HIM (and us) and yet he never did anything for *me* to help me get over the shocks I'd gotten. He just wanted the unpleasantness done and over with, and if I brought it up again he'd get um, annoyed. Silly me thought that everything seemed ok, though, and for a while it was. I just didn't realize or acknowledge to myself what a toll it took, and how unfinished it really was.

 

Well, fast forward 3-4 or so years (not 17!) to the secretitiveness again, the harsh defensiveness. His recriminations and bouts of verbal abuse in these situations are just wearing me down. I will go ahead and say I am no angel myself. But I have always noticed that my criticisms or complaints of him (to him) of specific instances or actions are always met by him not asserting himself on the issue at hand, but by denegrading my character. He is the kind of guy who, if you ask him to slow down when driving, might just speed up instead out of spite if he is in the mood.

 

So yes, I am all eyes right now. This can only be a temporary measure, though. It has gotten to the point of the occasional nightmare for me, in which he stands by idly and watches, doing nothing while I am in grave danger and asking him to call 911.... like he doesn't care.

 

Maybe truth comes through dreams.

[whirlygig]

This all makes sense, yes, you are not wrong Scott. I myself went through the hell of getting 'proof' each and every time my H had an affair and denied it... sometimes the admission or evidence only came years after, but it just so happened, in my case, that each and every time I observed his Behavior and realized he was covering up an Affair, he was.

 

 

---

 

Ah, Athena... the lying. That is what gets to me the most. How can one respect someone who lies at the expense of his marriage, his wife's self-confidence, and sanity instead of just leveling. Who will say one minute that he has nothing to hide and refuses to let me even look at his accounts not 5 minutes later. And it was clear I was very unhappy, wanted some resolution... for US, for our relationship to heal.

 

So does that make his claim that he had nothing to hide a lie?

 

Or say he isn't actually cheating but deathly afraid of being put in a bad light, is that any more ok in the end from a healthy marriage standpoint? It is keeping secrets and it has severely damaged what we had.

 

Athena, how many affairs did your WH have over the years? PA or EA's? What did you finally do, ask for D without "proof"? Good ole no fault? In any case, I'm sorry for the pain you have suffered. !

[Scottdmw]

Oh, sorry for messing up the numbers. It does sound like you tried quite a lot to make the relationship better. I know how it feels when you are doing all kinds of things and making a lot of effort and your partner doesn't. I don't really know what else to tell you, other than it does sound like something has to change. I do usually feel like when there is an imbalance, when one person tries a lot harder than the other, that's not a good thing. I don't really know what to do to make it better though.

 

Scott

[IfWishesWereHorses]

How can one respect someone who lies at the expense of his marriage, his wife's self-confidence, and sanity instead of just leveling.

 

You can't. To me that's the worst consequence a WS suffers. Its not the loss of trust even, its the loss of respect. Most could care less though.

[Athena]

So does that make his claim that he had nothing to hide a lie?

 

Or say he isn't actually cheating but deathly afraid of being put in a bad light, is that any more ok in the end from a healthy marriage standpoint? It is keeping secrets and it has severely damaged what we had.

Are you actively checking him out now? Got a keylogger, etc?

 

Athena, how many affairs did your WH have over the years?

My H was married before, and had 5 affairs in their 6 and a half year marriage. His W divorced him when he went to her and told her of all his A's (she hadn't known). In our M, H has had 8 affairs, of which there have been five D-days... been married 23 years, he last cheated this March.

 

PA or EA's?

All his affairs have been sexual in nature. And a lot of them emotional as well. He felt in love with the OW before this last affair which was a different woman.

 

What did you finally do, ask for D without "proof"? Good ole no fault?

He doesn't want a D. Our state considers fault. I have finally managed to distance myself from him emotionally... I was very much in love with him for a very long time. Last year I made it my business to emotionally disconnect from him. After his recent affair, I do not have sex with him anymore. He works abroad (it's better for him because he can carry on a double life as well as earn good money). I am still married to him. I have had to be destroyed first, before Change could kick in... now I am in the process of Transformation. I wish he had never LIED and cheated on me, we would have enjoyed our M.

 

In any case, I'm sorry for the pain you have suffered. !

Thank you, I know you would understand. You are suffering the same way. You need to disconnect somewhat for your own sanity. You cannot change him. And, you can not make him admit anything to you. So in the absence of all that proof that you need you can look at his Behavior. Behavior is what we humans do which reveal our opinions... so if you want to know what he Really thinks, LOOK at his Behavior! He acts in accordance with his beliefs. So to find out what his real beliefs are, you look very carefully at his actions. Do not listen to his words -- he is lying, and Talk is cheap.

[whirlygig]

>>>He doesn't want a D. Our state considers fault. I have finally managed to distance myself from him emotionally... I was very much in love with him for a very long time. Last year I made it my business to emotionally disconnect from him. After his recent affair, I do not have sex with him anymore. He works abroad (it's better for him because he can carry on a double life as well as earn good money). I am still married to him. I have had to be destroyed first, before Change could kick in... now I am in the process of Transformation. I wish he had never LIED and cheated on me, we would have enjoyed our M.<<<

 

Ouch, that is just too much. Heck, what drives these men? I clearly do not understand (but it is a rhetorical question...). You know, I think the lies and stonewalling are worse than the cheating up to a point (other than the risk of disease which is right up there, too).

 

Yes, I will go the KL route. Not sure how illuminating it will be since H said to me a couple of years ago, in close to these words, "do you think I'd to do those things on our home computer knowing you check up on it?". I thought at the time that was a very revealing thing to say to a concerned spouse- and again he clearly wasn't trying to comfort of assuage my concerns in the least. And, his cell phone is a work one and the bills go to corporate so I will never see them... and he is on the computer at work a lot...

 

>>>>. . . You need to disconnect somewhat for your own sanity. You cannot change him. And, you can not make him admit anything to you. So in the absence of all that proof that you need you can look at his Behavior. Behavior is what we humans do which reveal our opinions... so if you want to know what he Really thinks, LOOK at his Behavior! He acts in accordance with his beliefs. So to find out what his real beliefs are, you look very carefully at his actions. Do not listen to his words -- he is lying, and Talk is cheap.>>>

 

Well, it has been both refreshing and very sad to just turn off my emotions. Refreshing in that, yes, I am seeing and realizing more now, sad because well, I feel like my life is on hold at least temporarily. And, sad because H is not who I thought he was.

 

And what I'm seeing is not pretty. The defensive reactions become so much more obvious once I chose not to be emotionally vested. It has finally sunk in that H will not admit anything else to me, not even the most trivial things totally unrelated to EAs or stuff like that. And since I've started pointing out when he turns the tables on conversations to deflect from himself, H is getting more angry with me and cutting conversations short. (today it was a parenting issue, and no big surprise but he was talking out his anger for me on our teenaged son. that was NOT ok. it is even worse than everything else combined!!)

[Chia1]

>>>He doesn't want a D. Our state considers fault. I have finally managed to distance myself from him emotionally... I was very much in love with him for a very long time. Last year I made it my business to emotionally disconnect from him. After his recent affair, I do not have sex with him anymore. He works abroad (it's better for him because he can carry on a double life as well as earn good money). I am still married to him. I have had to be destroyed first, before Change could kick in... now I am in the process of Transformation. I wish he had never LIED and cheated on me, we would have enjoyed our M.<<<

 

Ouch, that is just too much. Heck, what drives these men? I clearly do not understand (but it is a rhetorical question...). You know, I think the lies and stonewalling are worse than the cheating up to a point (other than the risk of disease which is right up there, too).

 

Yes, I will go the KL route. Not sure how illuminating it will be since H said to me a couple of years ago, in close to these words, "do you think I'd to do those things on our home computer knowing you check up on it?". I thought at the time that was a very revealing thing to say to a concerned spouse- and again he clearly wasn't trying to comfort of assuage my concerns in the least. And, his cell phone is a work one and the bills go to corporate so I will never see them... and he is on the computer at work a lot...

 

>>>>. . . You need to disconnect somewhat for your own sanity. You cannot change him. And, you can not make him admit anything to you. So in the absence of all that proof that you need you can look at his Behavior. Behavior is what we humans do which reveal our opinions... so if you want to know what he Really thinks, LOOK at his Behavior! He acts in accordance with his beliefs. So to find out what his real beliefs are, you look very carefully at his actions. Do not listen to his words -- he is lying, and Talk is cheap.>>>

 

Well, it has been both refreshing and very sad to just turn off my emotions. Refreshing in that, yes, I am seeing and realizing more now, sad because well, I feel like my life is on hold at least temporarily. And, sad because H is not who I thought he was.

 

And what I'm seeing is not pretty. The defensive reactions become so much more obvious once I chose not to be emotionally vested. It has finally sunk in that H will not admit anything else to me, not even the most trivial things totally unrelated to EAs or stuff like that. And since I've started pointing out when he turns the tables on conversations to deflect from himself, H is getting more angry with me and cutting conversations short. (today it was a parenting issue, and no big surprise but he was talking out his anger for me on our teenaged son. that was NOT ok. it is even worse than everything else combined!!)

 

Whirlygig, I feel for you as well. No one deserves to be treated like that. I have done something similar, but not of the same magnitude towards my SO.

 

But I have a question, why did you marry him?

[whirlygig]

. . . But I have a question, why did you marry him?

 

--

 

 

Oh we were totally in love, a very nice beginning- we had wonderful times in the first 1-2 years!! There were a couple of little hints of possible issues before we married but nothing I thought was remotely serious at the time.

 

In retrospect, finding a necklace in one of his bathroom baskets early on in dating was odd. He claimed he didn't know how it got there or who's it was. Well, clearly it was a former girlfriends and I just thought he was embarassed but didn't think it was anything to worry about. Of course I thought he should have made sure it got back to the original owner but didn't feel comfortable bringing it up at that point. And, he never did return it... Looking back, BAD bad bad.

 

Or, treating a waiter vary arrogantly- it only happened once and I was shocked because it was so very out of character with the man I loved. It did make me very uncomfortable but it never happened again for quite a few years.

 

Seriously, it was a great period of time but it didn't last.