trust is lost after EA and I still feel lied to

[whirlygig]

Where to start? About 3 or so years ago my H told me that he had had an EA 8 years before that. So, 11 years ago now since the EA. It came out in the following way. I've been doing our family's banking and bill paying for over 15 years (married nearly 17) and had noticed that his bonus checks from work stopped coming. They used to come, via direct deposit, every 4 weeks. It was clear that the $ amounts were still listed on his total paid amount for the regular paychecks but that $300-$500 bonus was not making its way to our bank account. I did smell a rat but didn't say anything for a month because I just wasn't sure what to think and wanted to give hubby the benefit of the doubt... until the next month's check wasn't direct deposited (and I found $700 in cash in his briefcase). We have joint checking and our spending/savings was an open book, so how he thought he could do that without my noticing is beyond me. (denial?) Well, when I confronted him with it he accused me of being too controlling and that I always complained about his purchases, a killjoy. He said he wanted to buy a(nother) fly fishing rod and didn't want to hear me complain. (No matter that he had 3 other fly rods already, purchased over 2 years, ditto violins and other stuff. He is never quite happy and satisfied with what he has.

 

I was floored that he hid money like this and then blamed *me* for his deceit and motivations. He also lied about the circumstances, saying his boss accidentally forgot to do the direct deposits, that he forgot to check a box and that hubby just took advantage of the situation. I didn't believe him. I was shocked because I'd always trusted him implicitly- for the 14 years we'd been married.

 

So, after that I asked if he had anything else to get off his shoulders, any other secrets. He told me about an EA (not that he called it that) and indicated he thought I already knew, which I did not). He said he had become very close with a younger co-worker, that he was "looking for emotional reassurances" in his relationship with her (we were having a rough patch back then) , that he found himself "falling in love with her" and that she had wanted him to leave me and marry her. He claims that all they ever *did* physically was to kiss once- when she had fallen while running. (ok, he never gets all cuddly with me if I am hurt, helpful but not physically reassuring.) He said it ended up by him telling her he just couldn't continue with their "relationship", that he still loved me. I'll never know if this was actually true or not, or if she 'dumped' him. She moved cross country several months later. This is the gal that I knew as his morning running buddy of several years. He would talk about her at home with me back then: how religious she is, how she was still a virgin at 27 and holding out for marriage, ... He firmly led me to believe back then that they were just friends- but I did wonder a time or two when he left for work at 5:30 "to go running" (no work before 7 or 7:30). And, he always showered there and often do his personal laundry (read underwear as well as t-shirts and running clothes, although running shorts have the built in undies) there too. (he is chef at a restaurant where all uniforms are washed on premises) .

 

And, strangely, she kept inviting us (hubby, I and our 2 two kids: then ages 4 and 11) to attend her church. When we finally agreed to attend one Sunday, she came with another gal and didn't sit with us, barely even said hello. I was SO puzzled by that and still am. Other things... my husband had told me at one point back then that his boss was talking about firing him for inappropriate behavior with this gal, for being in the office with her with doors shut (and possibly locked, not sure about this)... I was shocked and very concerned because I fully believed and supported dh in his assertions that his boss was just plain wrong, I thought it was outrageous. I believed him- that they were just friends, or refused to believe what was really rather obvious, looking back. But I'd never heard of EAs and was very much the trusting, "its ok to have opposite sex friends" kind of person.

 

So, it really hit me hard, finding out about that affair of some kind and the money issue in one double whammy. I felt and still feel so deceived. The trust between us was seriously compromised, the main issue now. He had so many opportunities to tell me about that over the years, but didn't. After his confession to me, I checked any of his email accounts that I could access- first time ever. I found some older emails on our old computer (written 5 years ago now) where he was corresponding with a different (younger than us) former female co-worker. At one point he writes to her that (his words) "my wife and kids will be out of town this weekend, want to come over for a bottle of wine or three". I wouldn't characterize the other emails as especially flirty but just the constant back and forth of two people who know each other very well, except for one where he says "I'm still going to come by and wake you up some morning." (he used to run through her neighborhood regularly on his morning runs) .

 

What is a spouse supposed to think of emails like that, especially after having recently been told about the EA. And like I said, he minimized the EA as no big deal, saying that he thought hiding the money was a bigger wrong than the relationship which he says he stopped in time. He claimed I was just being silly and paranoid about the next gal I asked about (the 'come over for a bottle of wine' friend), that they were just friends and nothing else and that she never came over, anyway. I was always suspicious about that but couldn't prove anything. And whenever I brought these things up with him, he'd become defensive and angry at the same time- and chiding, too, saying he'd already apologized. Either way, for him to be suggesting such an evening here when I am away is plain inappropriate and not right. I couldn't believe it; I realized how little I really know my dh.

 

At that time I did ask him to give me the the passwords to his current email accounts (2 of them that I knew of, but not his work email) and he did, although not very willingly and not without making it seem like a very big deal about it. This was 3 years ago. I didn't find anything suspicious then and eventually stopped looking for the most part.

 

Then, there was an instance of a female worker phoning him here at our house a couple of years ago (which was very unusual for a wait person to do) and when he got on the phone he called her "Honey". I was there and he almost seemed like he'd slipped up in front of me... But again, his explanation was "Oh it is nothing" and said that he got that from a female manager who called everyone Honey. Well, he never calls me Honey (or any other pet names)so that just doesn't sit right with me and I wondered if he had a flirt or more going on with her, too. And a manager doesn't just go around calling female employees honey in any case.

 

Well, this spring we were having issues and I decided to look at his email accounts for the first time in months- he'd changed his passwords so I was locked out.(facebook too) I didn't bring it up with him but wondered why he did that, it made me suspicious all over again and gave me that bad feeling inside-that he has something to hide. So, just in the past few weeks he posted a status to Facebook that just said, "As you wish". I didn't know what he meant by that, it sounded so cryptic, but initially I commented with a joke and some innuendo that I thought would make him laugh: "OK, going shopping now! Wine and massage later!" which would normally rather intrigue him (to say the least). His public comment back was just a curt "right", right there on facebook. I was very hurt and puzzled by that. Later I was looking through the internet history and realized he had recently googled famous quotes from the movie "Princess Bride". On that link it clearly says that the guy in love with the princess kept saying "As you wish" to Princess Buttercup by which he meant "I love you". This sounds so silly to even be writing about, I know. But there he was posting a FB status which he thought of as meaning "I Love You". And it wasn't for me, that was clear. That really stung, not made better when I told him I know what As You Wish meant. He said he posted it "Just to see what might be initiated" and later said he posted it "just because". That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me, I can't help but feel that it was aimed at someone, some non-mutual FB friend.

 

In the month since then our relationship has been a real roller coaster- I just cannot get over what he wrote on Facebook (and his response to me there) and I keep thinking back to the EA and his other inappropriate behaviors and possible relationships with other women. And he just says it is nothing, that I am being "histrionic". So last week when things seemed to be going well again between us, I said I really wanted to talk, that I was still having trouble trusting him and wanted to discuss it. He literally jumped up, got defensive, said that he has nothing to hide and that I just need to trust him. I tried to explain that it just isn't so easy, and asked him to just log into his Facebook account and email address so I could SEE there was nothing going on. At first he balked but finally said ok... until I said I wanted to look at all 4, not just his main email acct and FB page. Now I know why he has 4 accts and that is not the issue but when he heard that I wanted to look at all 4, not just the one we use to email each other sometimes, he flat out refused and got rather belligerent that he insisted on his privacy.... That we all have a right to some privacy and so on... And I can see from the internet history on the family computer that he has changed his FB password again this week.

 

He keeps coming back to the idea that (his words here) "a relationship needs to be built on trust and faith and if I can't trust him then he doesn't know how our marriage will end up". Well... that is just not so easy to do and is seriously harming our marriage, especially when he also doesn't want to talk about the past, saying he has apologized for it and that should be enough. He has been unwilling this time around to give me his passwords, not even just let me see his accounts on the spur of the moment. It is so easy to assume he is hiding something since he reacts this way and yet he claims that he is just tired of having to "prove" things to me.

 

We have other issues besides this going on, of course. He says I don't show him enough affection and while I realize that is true (he isn't saying not enough sex, he is just saying I don't hug him or cuddle, or initiate S),.. And, he has admitted that he puts up a wall and blocks out those who have hurt him emotionally before. (implying me, for one) But it is nearly impossible for me to shower him with affection when I feel this sense of mistrust for my husband and his deception, and he sometimes gets verbally abusive when we argue.. In the heat of an argument, usually in his final words, he has said things like that I just married him for his money (what money??!!), that we aren't a family, that I'm a terrible mother, the house is a pigpen (actually it is on the clean and tidy side), that he "doesn't like me much when I get pissy and emotional", or that "I am F***ed in the head",...

 

I've been a reader of LoveShack on and off for several years now and it has been a good help in helping me feel grounded and stronger. I 'm not clear on why I've taken so long to register and post. But I am getting more desperate for feedback, the insight of others who might have "been there done that", and and I suppose validation for feeling so untrusting. To hear it from him, it is all my problem. It is hard for me to hear this and not question my thinking and rationales on a regular basis. So difficult. I'm thinking about individual or marriage counseling (and dh said he'd come along)-- I am so desperate for an improvement in the relationship and yet cannot image any lasting harmony with the current state of things. I love my husband and want to save what we have (or had) because in spite of my description he is really a nice and loving person in many ways. But I am finding it so hard to reconcile the 2 pictures of DH in my mind- the loving husband and the "womanizer" who lies to his wife and deceives her regularly.

[foreal]

"But I am finding it so hard to reconcile the 2 pictures of DH in my mind- the loving husband and the "womanizer" who lies to his wife and deceives her regularly."

 

From what you have written, the loving husband description only seems to apply when he gets his way. If you question him, his motives, his feelings etc, he gets pissed and/or defensive. He blame shifts; he minimizes your hurt feelings; he has serious boundary issues with other women and admits to at least 1 emotional A but it sounds like he has had many many many...and most likely some have been PA.

 

I am so sorry. This must be terribly painful for you.

 

You will have to decide if you can live with someone who treats you this way.

 

You have every reason to be upset and to consider alternatives for yourself- I could not stay with someone like this, but only you know how much you can take...you have taken so much already.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Whirlygig,

 

I'm so sorry that you are going through this. What I'm going to say may not sound terribly supportive of what you're going through but you need to hear it. If I could give you one gift right now it would for you to believe your eyes and ears over what you want to believe.

 

Your H is gastlighting you. (that's abuse) He's been doing it for awhile and the fact that you will back down when he becomes defensive is carte blanche for him to continue this behavior.

 

You know instinctively what is what. You know when he lies. The only way to stop that behavior is not to ask him another question. YOU KNOW THE TRUTH.

 

There is a site called Marriage Builders that many people here swear by. I urge you to take a look.

 

Your H is cheating. He has made a hobby of "courting" young women. It is very common in the restaurant industry. He has used your love for him and your trust in him against you. Take both away now. If you can ignore your emotions and begin to act in a take charge manner then you have a chance to knock him off his mountain.

 

Cry to us, cry to a friend but not to him. First, if you can, get the $700 dollars out of his breifcase, he doesn't need a fly rod he needs a lawyer. Then pack his things and kick him out. Don't listen to a word he says. Put the money toward a consultation with a lawyer. Do not engage in any conversation with him other than to tell him what's going on.

 

You're H has been at this for a long time. You've developed this script that replays everytime he is a bad boy. END THAT CYCLE. You are now in charge of YOUR LIFE. Do not feed into that cycle anymore. Do not agree to talk about it.

 

This has gone on for most of your M and it part of who he is, if you want any chance of your marriage eventually working (should you choose) then its time to rock his world and mean it. Kicking him to the curb and letting him hit rock bottom is your only chance. No nothing from you, no anger, no crying, no questions. YOU HOLD THE CHIPS NOW.

 

Hopefully, Owl or some others will chime in. Really, in cases like this, you are left with no other choice, and this is your one chance, you blow it and he'll know you don't mean it if you try it again.

 

I'm so sorry you are going through this. I hope you'll reach out to a dear friend, sibling, ect.. for support. Its not the time to tell the world but you don't need to go through this alone. Pick your strongest trusted friend and ask for help.

[whirlygig]

"If you question him, his motives, his feelings etc, he gets pissed and/or defensive. He blame shifts; he minimizes your hurt feelings; he has serious boundary issues with other women and admits to at least 1 emotional A but it sounds like he has had many many many...and most likely some have been PA."

 

--

 

I wish I knew the truth about any affairs other than the first EA, (which might have gotten physical, itself). It is driving me absolutely batty to feel this uncertainty. But I do imagine there have been at minimum flirtatious indiscretions over the years, if not worse.

 

I has neglected to mention that I have also found cookies on our computers for dating-type sites, at least 2 sites in the past 3 years. I discovered one set of cookies about 3 months ago. (not on the internet history, just the cookies) Can cookies for those sites get on your comupter without actually *going to the sites themselves*? What really make me wonder was the one 3 years ago, which was sort of a "titty" dating site. He says it wasn't him and must have been our younger son and his friends. They were 12 and 13 at the time and I wasn't exactly convinced. (my older son has his own computer, wouldn't have been him looking at them on the family computer.) And H never did ask my son about them, as one might think a dad would do if he really thought the kids were venturing to semi-porm sites. !

 

At that point I vowed to keep a hawks eye on things and keep my mouth closed about it. But after that H knew I looked at internent history, cookies,... and there has been little evidende since.

 

Much of what you say is true: questioning him makes him defensive or angry. He shifts blame- like questioning me about male Facebook friends when I have just asked him about his comments there,... And when I wrote a letter to him recently ,to get all my thoughts out uninterrupted, his response was to blast me out of the water and point out my flaws. He didn't address a single issue or concern I'd raised.

 

I have to acknowledge that he has boundary issues with women, but it is very tough to accept. And even harder to decide what to do about. I have been a stay at home parent for the past 16 years, which makes this all the more difficult.

[foreal]

I have been a stay at home parent for the past 16 years, which makes this all the more difficult.

 

You should go see a lawyer ASAP.

 

 

Start getting your finances in order- time to get all passwords, etc, bank accounts etc....hopefully you have credit cards, credit etc in your name? if not, do so asap.

 

Get an Atty.....the first visit is free, GO GO GO!!

[whirlygig]

"Your H is gastlighting you. (that's abuse) He's been doing it for awhile and the fact that you will back down when he becomes defensive is carte blanche for him to continue this behavior. "

 

Oh my god. I'm feeling really ill reading up on gaslighting. This is a term I have not heard before but if fits, unfortunately. I feel a sick feeling in my stomach that meansd there is truth here. You know, I think H wants to have his cake and eat it, too. While he may not be doing this on a conscious level, this is really messing with my psyche and emotions. He wants to keep me down and here- comfortable on a material level but unable to leave him. I know he doesn't want to lose me....

 

But, I've been feeling like I'm losing mySELF for a while- becoming a bitter person, not the happy, cheery person I used to be.

 

So thanks, IfWishesWereHorses, I appreciate your insights. AND everyone elses as well!! I haven't had much time to get away (by myself) on the computer or would surely be resonding more and in greater detail...

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Hang in there Whirlygig. Try to enjoy your weekend. Don't argue or question your H, you're just asking him to lie. Please rely on a friend instead.

 

I wish I'ld knew then what I know now. Please check out MB website. Your H is in love , and in an affair fog.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

If you get a few minutes (hours) check out notsure7's thread, All in my head.. need to get it out (bad paraphrase) but it's on the infidelity forum here.

[LakesideDream]

"Your H is gastlighting you. (that's abuse) He's been doing it for awhile and the fact that you will back down when he becomes defensive is carte blanche for him to continue this behavior. "

 

 

Whirlygig, Gaslighting is a tactic nearly every married person uses to continue their affair. To call gaslighting "abuse" is overstating the situation. In todays society "abuse" is a loaded word, and brings with it many consequences. Calling gaslighting "abuse" degrades the seriousness of abuse in general.

 

That being said, of course I agree the OP is being gaslighted. There are literally dozens of threads running on LS with similar themes. Check them out.

 

If I were you I would begin to protect myself, build your own idenity, credit, bank accounts etc. Whether your husbands almost certain affair breaks up your marriage, or yo udecide enough is enough you will need autonomy. Seize the day.

 

Lean on the posters here on LS. They are the best group on the web. There is help, advice, and understanding here for you. Welcome to the group.

[whirlygig]

Whirlygig, Gaslighting is a tactic nearly every married person uses to continue their affair. To call gaslighting "abuse" is overstating the situation.

Lean on the posters here on LS. They are the best group on the web. There is help, advice, and understanding here for you. Welcome to the group.

 

---

I do think he has been emotionally or verbally abusing me for most of our marriage, sporadically but when it comes it is aimed to hurt- and hard. (not that I admitted any of this to myself until fairly recently) What struck me on reading more about gaslighting is that I was not aware of what was happening to my self-confidence in the most fundamental ways. I am actually vocal and loud when angry however the things H would say to me stuck and sunk in deeply. I *feel* like the negative and critical person he sometimes claims I am until I stop to consider where and when I came up with those ideas-- from him.

 

He and I simply cannot discuss my personal sense of depression, vulnerability, or lack of ease about our relationship without him becoming defensive and usually also unpleasant. It is all MY fault, after all (so I am told). Besides recently telling me I'm F***ed in the head, he says stuff like:

 

that I never tell him anything that is on my mind, that I like to analyze and criticize, often in the same breath... that I am not an easy person to talk to because of my critical point of view..it is hard to bring things up with me... I am not spontaneous and have trouble changing directions... do I actually try to give him what he wants and needs? to try and make him happy? He says he would love to cuddle on the sofa and watch a movie...would love to go for a walk..all those things, but (and I quote now) "first what men seem to need is a stable environment to come home to and that surely is not there nor has it been..

 

It can go on and on, that all these things come as HIS responses when I bring up my sense of unease, lack of emotional closeness, and the sense that he is withholding stuff from me.

 

He did tell me something really big a couple of weeks ago, a bombshell. I knew his childhood was bad- rejected by his father at 10 when his mother divorced his dad. Then they were moved across country and he never had contact with his older brother (who was his best friend) again until his 20s. What I hadn't known about was the fights his mother and step-father had in the early years of their marriage: not just a lot of yelling but also breaking open doors and turning over tables and god knows what else. There might be more but this is all he has now divulged. And he recently told me that this was all so stressful to him that he created a 'wall' behind which where no one could hurt him, he only lets in those people he really trusts. And, he says I hurt him deeply in a tough time in our early years so he shuts me out regularly. NO Wonder I cannot feel close to him and he has to go find happiness somewhere else.

[whirlygig]

"Whirlygig, Gaslighting is a tactic nearly every married person uses to continue their affair. To call gaslighting "abuse" is overstating the situation.

Lean on the posters here on LS. They are the best group on the web. There is help, advice, and understanding here for you. Welcome to the group."

 

I neglected to say thank you for the welcome. Thanks!

 

I want to add that even if the term gaslighting is common here and commonly used, it was very validating to me to hear about it. Personally it has been hard to tease apart my own feelings of mistrust and my H's bold assertions to the contrary so it is almost refreshing to hear I'm not the only one in ths boat and that is is very common... I seriously doubt my thoughts sometimes- very disconcerting.

 

I still have this internal debate over whether my wh flings went physical or not. Yes, I've questioned the odd red mark on his upper arm (looks like a love bite, he blows it off as some bug bite or something), underwear with 'stains' (he really blew up and said those were just 'manly secretions and what about MY underwear(!) and why and I interrogating him).

 

But with a H who is Always home on time, Doesn't go out at night, Doesn't have suspicious texts on his cell phone..., I did and do question my own intrepretations of things on a regular basis in spite of loads of 'circumstantial evidence' of a cheater as well as his own admission (years after the fact) of 1 deep EA where he was looking for "emotional reassurance that Somebody loved him".

 

I know lots of you think I need a lawyer and now. And maybe you are right. But, has anyone encountered a case of a defensive H who appears gulity of lots of things but isn't? I just want to be sure- one way or the other.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

I disagree with Lakeside that gaslighting isn't emotional abuse. It is insidious and causes a person to doubt their own sanity.

 

But, has anyone encountered a case of a defensive H who appears gulity of lots of things but isn't? I just want to be sure- one way or the other.

 

Yes, its happened to most of us here.... and THEN later we learned the truth. Your H is having a PA there is no doubt in my mind. Your doubt will set you back and hold up progress. Its the one phase I wish every BS could skip DENIAL, it hurts less than all the others but also holds up progress.

[JumpinJimmy]

Whirlgig, if you read the past threads by some of the other long time posters on the infidelity forum here, you will find out that where there is smoke there is fire. I would continue your investigation, ie...get his cell phone/texting records, subtle questioning about his facebook, installing a keyghost, etc. Then when you have gathered evidence of innapropriate behavior, then you must confronte and expose him. If you find nothing, and I along with most of the other posters here pray that you find just that...nothing, then you just let it go. Don't let his gaslighting about the trust issue guilt trip you into not doing it. He has already deceived you in regards to his relationship with women, and that in itself is probable cause. Good luck and keep the moral high road.

[whirlygig]

I disagree with Lakeside that gaslighting isn't emotional abuse. It is insidious and causes a person to doubt their own sanity.

 

Yes, its happened to most of us here.... and THEN later we learned the truth. Your H is having a PA there is no doubt in my mind. Your doubt will set you back and hold up progress. Its the one phase I wish every BS could skip DENIAL, it hurts less than all the others but also holds up progress.

 

--

 

Well, I am not quite doubting my sanity (wew!) but I do keep questioning myself, repeatedly. Very unsettling. Suggesting that I am in denial is probably spot on. I just can't believe that my H would do this to me- or don't want to believe it... even though I wrote a literal tome about the infractions to our marriage and other 'signs' of a WH. And I know he did it once for sure- only 4 years into our marriage and we are now approaching 17.

 

I'm taking the approach of quieting my emotions and watching with all eyes and ears. Turning off the heart and turning on the brain. I need to know what I'm looking at before figuring what to *do* about it. In the meantime, joining the YMCA,... reaching out to friends more. It is helping- as are those who have replied here ... a LOT more than you could imagine.

 

Interestingly, H must suspect some change in me because all of a sudden he is taking care of long postponed chores and whatnot around here, cooked a nice dinner last night, stuf like that. Well, I am not buying it considering that not two weeks ago he was telling a friend I didn't love him.

[Athena]

Whirlygig, as I read through you well presented points, I could clearly recognize all the 'signs' that your husband has been cheating on you for years with regular girlfriends. He has successfully hidden that part of him from you for so long now, that you will not pry it out of him willingly.

 

Your H sounds a lot like mine, and you sound a lot like I used to -- if I could give you the most sanity-saving advice (which I know you will not take, since you are now stuck in a saving the marriage stage... but this is not possible... the bottom line is that you would not want to be married to this man if you truly knew all the dirt on him) I would advise you to get out of this marriage immediately, and take it as a given that he has been cheating on you and even worse, is a Liar of the worst kind -- he will willingly blame YOU for his deeds and call you crazy for thinking he is up to what he is really up to. I highly doubt you will walk out on him now... you might eventually, if you ever get to the bottom of the truth, but that will come with a great cost to your sanity... be prepared to fall into depression and great depths of despair as you try think and hope and believe the best of him, despite the trickle of ugly truth that will slowly come out now, now that you suspect him of what he is up to. So, my advice in a nutshell would be to get rid of him, without the need to Prove what bs he is up to -- he will only deny it tooth and nail, and you will be driven into the ground. You poor, poor, woman... there is only heartache with him. Do yourself a favor and look up NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) and see if your H has a Narcissistic style to him... Google "narcissism" and see if he displays these traits...

 

We have other issues besides this going on, of course. He says I don't show him enough affection and while I realize that is true (he isn't saying not enough sex, he is just saying I don't hug him or cuddle, or initiate S),..

My translation of this is that right now, he has another woman who is VERY affectionate with him, and he is comparing you unfavorably with her...

 

 

and he sometimes gets verbally abusive when we argue.. In the heat of an argument, usually in his final words, he has said things like that I just married him for his money (what money??!!), that we aren't a family, that I'm a terrible mother, the house is a pigpen (actually it is on the clean and tidy side), that he "doesn't like me much when I get pissy and emotional", or that "I am F***ed in the head",...

This screams out Narcissist to me...

 

Your husband appears to be a Serial Cheater and there is very little hope to change his ways... he sees nothing wrong with what he is doing -- as long as he hides what he is doing from you, he thinks he is okay... and you, silly you, you are trying to get 'physical proof' when all the proof you need is IN HIS BEHAVIOR.

[Athena]

I just finished reading the rest of the posts, after I replied to your first post.

 

I recommend two short books that might help you understand your H a bit better: Author Richard Skerritt, "Surviving the Storm" and "Meaning from Madness". Do not buy them from Amazon because they are twice the price you can buy them directly from the author on his web site.

 

Let me quote some things from his books, "Chapter 1. Narcissism Defined. Is your partner a narcissist? You may not know how to tell, but even worse, you may be thinking that you are the crazy one. Narcissists work hard to distort our reality to make their reality feel safer.

 

So what is a narcissist? Someone who preens in front of the mirror all day in admiration? NOT! Ask yourself this: is your partner intensely angered by anything that seems to suggest that he or she might have a flaw? Narcissists will do anything, including brutalizing their own family, to maintain their own feeling that others see them as without any flaws. And, narcissists have extreme and illogical sensitivities, sometimes connecting the most minute observations with their intense fears of being seen as flawed.

Narcissists will strain every muscle to meet their own "flawless" image, and demean or destroy anyone or anything who casts any doubt on this image. If you see this dynamic in your partner, family member, coworker, or friend, you are very probably dealing with a narcissist."

 

(...)

 

"They Spin our Reality: Even though narcissists realize on some level how hurtful they are, accepting this major flaw in themselves is just too painful. So minds adapt reality to make it less painful; then they try to spin our reality to match theirs. This is called dissociation, and is one of the most common defense mechanism their minds use. Another common defense is projection. In projection, a characteristic of themselves that they find just too painful to accept is projected onto us. And the most frequently projected characteristic is mental illness. "I'm not a narcissist. You're the crazy one."

 

Another common and difficult defense mechanism is blame shifting. "So what if I ... It's your fault this happened because blah, blah, blah blah..."

After a while it becomes hard to distinguish what is real from what is being projected and what is being distorted. WE begin to doubt our reality and question whether we're the crazy ones, or whether our narcissistic partners are really right about what they say. The truth is, THEY'RE NOT RIGHT. But they feel safer when they can get us to accept their distorted reality and help carry the burden of their illness and their behavior.

 

What's more, disordered people hide their problems very effectively. Even though we know they live in emotional turmoil, they manage to publicly present a very together appearance, hiding their disease from most people. It is only those of us in close and private relationships that really see the abusive behavior. And because their lives are wracked with emotional turmoil, there is a lot of pent-up emotion that can be focused on us. Yet those around us don't see it, causing us further confusion.

 

What is this Disease? You can visit lots of web pages and read lists of criteria for narcissism. You can read about malignant narcissists, high functioning borderlines, you name it. And with narcissism, you have the added confusion of all the mythological stories and analogies that people want to drag into the definition of this disease. After a while you're convinced your partner has every disorder under the sun. The reality is, this disease isn't that complicated.

 

Narcissistic Personality disorder (NPD) is driven by a fundamental dynamic of fear (as also is borderline personality disorder; BPD, and the two are often confused.) Narcissists have a core level belief that the world is intensely threatening, and they are hypervigilant to protect against those threats. A narcissist finds safety within a stable routine of interactions with a limited circle of people where the narcissist feels perceived as without fault. Frightening and powerful fears are unleashed by anything that might suggest or reveal the slightest flaw to those people, or even worse to the "public". Moreover, events with no significances to healthy people may trigger these intense reactions.

 

For someone divorcing a narcissist, the fundamental, most important idea you must keep always in mind is that narcissists cannot stand anyone to criticize them, and most especially criticize them in public.

Narcissists have two fundamental types of defense reactions to criticism, and in divorce you will probably encounter both. The first reaction is the one you would prefer they use. Here, the narcissist tries to improve their behavior to rise above all criticism. Unfortunately, this is the defense that will more often be used in stable situations like regular interactions at work or in the community. You will also see this when they try to reconcile after breaking off a relationship, or straying from marriage. The second defense reaction is the one you will struggle with. Here, the narcissist shamelessly tries to destroy the source of the criticism. Maybe by a blunt and brutal attack, maybe by a confusing counter criticism or blame shifting approach, or in the worst case it may be a prolonged and apparently reasoned attack. Unfortunately, courts in which divorce cases are heard provide a perfect forum for this kind of attack."

 

(...)

 

"The Dynamic of Injury I've explained before that the fundamental psychological energy or dynamic of a narcissist is fear of being perceived as flawed. Narcissists prefer to rise above all flaws, straining every public muscle to be perfect at whatever they do. Many people wrongly interpret this "rise above" defense as a need for adoration or "narcissistic supply." It's not the positive feedback, though, that narcissists seek. Adoration makes no sense in a narcissist's disordered mind. It is assurance that the narcissist has no flaws that they seek. It is relief from fear that moves narcissists, not adoration from others to match a self-adoration. Contrary to their outward attempts to appear perfect, narcissists have a fundamental belief that they are despicable, and a belief that others will readily see this without the defensive shield of outward perfection. The thing that makes them comfortable is the feedback assuring them that no one sees this inner despicable nature.

 

I've also written a lot about narcissistic defenses to the suggestion of a flaw. A suggestion could be an outright criticism by another. This is generally the worst insult, especially if done publicly. But a suggestion may not be intended by the other. A neutral comment about something may be interpreted by the narcissist as implying a criticism. It's important to remember that narcissists have a fundamental belief about themselves that they are despicable. Another way to say that: there isn't just one thing narcissists see in themselves as flawed. They believe that most all of their traits are flaws; that they are riddled with flaws.

 

Thus, simply making a benign comment that touches the nature of any of these myriad flaws may cause - through the irrational and fundamentally inexplicable mental processes of the disordered narcissistic mind - the narcissist to feel criticized about that particular characteristic.

 

There's a third way that narcissists can feel criticized. This one is the most puzzling of all for us. Like all of us, narcissists carry a huge store of memories. Keep in mind now that clinicians and statisticians may not concur with my observation, but I have very rarely been told of a narcissist without also hearing of severe and prolonged mistreatment of that person in their childhood. My belief, based on these many written stories and consulting conversions, is that narcissism is "learned". I put that in quotes because narcissistic minds are truly disordered, not educated. But I believe the disordering comes from experience. Narcissists, as children, experience a world that is unpredictable; irrational; and sometimes intensely hurtful.

 

Unpredictable is the most important aspect. There is no way to cope with extreme unpredictability. Intensely hurtful punishment is inflicted on these children for no understandable reason. Children naturally do the same thing we do as adults - they associate the reason for the punishment with themselves. They believe they deserved it. It is intense; therefore the child must be despicable. Moreover their minds become alert to danger everywhere; since punishment is always possible regardless of situation.

 

But more importantly, this leaves the narcissist with a store of memories that connect ordinary, everyday actions - actions that in themselves had no flaw and no reason to be criticized - with intense and hurtful punishment. My belief is that this store of memories is not explicit in the conscious awareness of the narcissist. They cannot recount these hundreds or thousands of incidents in which they were brutalized for no discernible reason.Yet the associations remain in memory.

 

In ordinary situations, we might be subjected to violent outbursts by a narcissist that have no observable cause. I believe these outbursts are often triggered by these associations in memory. Perhaps as a child, a narcissist was verbally (...) "

[whirlygig]

Oops, I had to log off unexpectedly and didn't finish with my thoughts... I was saying that not 2 weeks ago he had Facebook messaged a gal friend of mine that he knew I'd been talking to with about our relationship. He wrote to her that he wanted to share *his side of the story* with her, and told her a bunch of half-truths and one outright lies. And he told her that he wants love and acceptance from me, and a peaceful home when he comes home from work- but he but doesn't get it. This is the H who got belligerent just weeks ago when I asked to peek at his FB and email accounts right after he swore to me that he had Nothing To Hide... And there he was going crying to my gal friend about us. That seems inappropriate to me and did to her, too. SHe sent me the whole 4 message exchange right away and suggested he should be telling me those things, not her. (he didn't tell he about the facebook messages at all, of course, she did.)

Sigh. Anyway, I cannot flat out say he is currently cheating but he seriously doesn't know what is appropriate and what isn't.

[whirlygig]

Athena- A short and succinct thank you because I need to get off the computer in a sec. (i want to keep this conversation private from H, for obvious reasons). I'll go read up more on narcissism, but I have a pit in my stomach because another friend already said the same thing to me. It is a very nauseating feeling.

 

What do you think about this, something that he only recently (2 weeks ago) confided in me with (his words from an email, seems to be the only way we can communicate):

 

"I built this emotional shell around myself and really did not let too many people in for fear of being hurt...I have had enough rejection and hurt in my life for several people and sometimes I look at other people and wonder if they have hurt as much as I have becasue they look so happy but surely there must be some pain in there somewhere but how are they so happy...I am not saying this becasue I want or expect your pity becasue I don't...you say getting hurt is all a part of growing and changing sure but in what way do we grow and change...I have learned not to let people get too close so I won;t get hurt again...it surely is not the most healthy thing to do but it is now who I have become."

[JumpinJimmy]

"So, my advice in a nutshell would be to get rid of him, without the need to Prove what bs he is up to -- he will only deny it tooth and nail, and you will be driven into the ground. You poor, poor, woman... there is only heartache with him."

 

 

 

Athena, I think that you are jumping the gun and have already BBQ'd the husband. I think 17 yrs of marriage and family is worth a little more investigation than going by a gut feeling over little bit of secrecy on his part. I think the odds of a long term PA are fairly high, but you have to be sure of it since making a mistake in assuming that he was cheating when he was really not will have worse consequences for her in regards to her own self esteem, not to mention what her own children and family will think later. Additonally, most BS will need to have some type of closure about this, and the way in obtaining that is by learning the truth

[IfWishesWereHorses]

WG, is his FB ( or whatever site) open to everyone or only friends. He's telling someone that he loves them. Who can see it? I'm glad you are trying not to show your emotions. That will serve you well right now.

[whirlygig]

His FB page is only open to his friends (and I am still one, lucky me). He doesn't list himself as married. And I know he recently either turned off his whole chat list (he used to chat with people) or put me on an "offline" list so I cannot even see when he is online or not. Seriously. In the past week he made that change. Not sure if he simpy stopped his own temptation of chats or stopped chatting when I am around. Who knows.

 

And oddly, he came home from work early today but never got on the computer until I took doggie for her walk. Hmmm. I saw him on FB coming back home the back way, a wee bit different for me since I usually come in the front. It wa spouring and I was in a hurry.... Yes, he'd logged off by the time I unleashed pup in the next room.

 

I am seeing more secretiveness, like never before. He must sense change in the air.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Well whomever he is telling he loves her must be on his page. Get a keylogger downloaded tomorrow. Stay happy and give him enough rope to hang himself.

[Athena]

not 2 weeks ago he had Facebook messaged a gal friend of mine that he knew I'd been talking to with about our relationship. He wrote to her that he wanted to share *his side of the story* with her, and told her a bunch of half-truths and one outright lies. And he told her that he wants love and acceptance from me, and a peaceful home when he comes home from work- but he but doesn't get it.

 

I translate this action of his as his Need for not being perceived as 'flawed' by anyone, including your friend. He will do <anything> to be seen as 'okay' and 'not at fault'... even if it's inappropriate. He CARES what others think of him.

[Athena]

--

I just can't believe that my H would do this to me- or don't want to believe it... even though I wrote a literal tome about the infractions to our marriage and other 'signs' of a WH. And I know he did it once for sure- only 4 years into our marriage and we are now approaching 17.

 

Whirlygig, Am I reading this correctly? The bolded part -- do you mean to say that your H has cheated on you before? And you know this, for sure?

 

If so, then in light of his past track record, his present suspicious actions seem to confirm what he has already proved he is capable of doing -- cheating.

 

JumpinJimmy yes, you are right... I am jumping the gun, instead of waiting to find the smoking gun, I am looking at the whole picture of a husband who is consistently acting like a cheating man... as far as I am concerned, his behavior gives him away. He is not behaving like an honest husband with nothing to hide...

[Athena]

Athena-

What do you think about this, something that he only recently (2 weeks ago) confided in me with (his words from an email, seems to be the only way we can communicate):

 

"I built this emotional shell around myself and really did not let too many people in for fear of being hurt...I have had enough rejection and hurt in my life for several people and sometimes I look at other people and wonder if they have hurt as much as I have becasue they look so happy but surely there must be some pain in there somewhere but how are they so happy...I am not saying this becasue I want or expect your pity becasue I don't...you say getting hurt is all a part of growing and changing sure but in what way do we grow and change...I have learned not to let people get too close so I won;t get hurt again...it surely is not the most healthy thing to do but it is now who I have become."

 

I have pretty much heard the same from my own H -- that he "put up a shield" to retreat behind any 'attacks' and that he goes 'into his shell' when he feels 'accused'...

 

What I think of your H confiding all this to you now, after 17 years of marriage, is "Why Now"? Why is your H choosing to tell you this now? I think it is because he senses you are onto him and he is now cleverly setting the stage for Sympathy from you, AND as an excuse/reason to fall back on, should his Cover come tumbling down, and you find out some of his escapades... also a clever way of turning the tables on you and blaming you for 'pushing him away' and his keeping an Emotional distance from you, and resorting to lying to 'protect himself'.