Vet Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Oh, and also: Another reason I'm having a hard time understanding why one bf in particular was mad about this is because: Earlier that night, different people were in the hot tub, and one of the guys dragged another girl (the girl who's top was taken off of her) fully clothed into the hot tub. He then wrapped his arms around her so she couldn't move, and unbuttoned and unzipped her pants and started pulling them off. She was protesting, NOT laughing, and she was obviously mad. Yet her bf didn't have the tiniest problem with this whatsoever, and she actually got a little miffed at him for not caring about this and saying something to the other guy to back her up. She said something to her bf about it when they were sober and all he said was "Yeah, that was a little messed up." And that was it. So...for him especially I don't get why he was so angry about the other thing. It doesn't make sense to any of us girls. I can't believe no one stood up and told this guy to cut it out, let alone her boyfriend. Her boyfriend is a definite tool, and it sounds like you need new friends.
New Again Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 I can't believe no one stood up and told this guy to cut it out, let alone her boyfriend. Her boyfriend is a definite tool, and it sounds like you need new friends. I just showed this to one of my guy friends and this is almost exactly what he said: the guy's a complete tool/a-hole; HE would've done something in this situation, even if the girl wasn't his gf - because no guy should be forcing/overpowering a girl like that, and get new friends, because these are have too much drama.
Trimmer Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 You guys all sound young - how old is the group, generally? Here's an alternate take (well, it goes along with "the guy is a tool"...) When the first thing happened, it was "OK" because it was the guy doing it to the girl, and "boys will be boys" and all that. When the girls actually took some initiative and did something, then that's not OK, because it reflects on the manhood of the guy, etc... Basically, the guys are more concerned with how they look in front of the other guys than they are with supporting their GF's. Girls are property of the guys, kind of as a group, so the guys have to laugh off the pulling-into-the-water incident (so they can be one of the boys - "it's cool man, right, just goofing around...") and they are very threatened by the suit-top incident ("hey man, your girl is going for another chick!") Bottom line, the guys' loyalty is to the other guys more than their girls. That's what makes me think your group is relatively young (or at least, immature...)
Author Absolutely Curtains Posted August 31, 2009 Author Posted August 31, 2009 You guys all sound young - how old is the group, generally? Here's an alternate take (well, it goes along with "the guy is a tool"...) When the first thing happened, it was "OK" because it was the guy doing it to the girl, and "boys will be boys" and all that. When the girls actually took some initiative and did something, then that's not OK, because it reflects on the manhood of the guy, etc... Basically, the guys are more concerned with how they look in front of the other guys than they are with supporting their GF's. Girls are property of the guys, kind of as a group, so the guys have to laugh off the pulling-into-the-water incident (so they can be one of the boys - "it's cool man, right, just goofing around...") and they are very threatened by the suit-top incident ("hey man, your girl is going for another chick!") Bottom line, the guys' loyalty is to the other guys more than their girls. That's what makes me think your group is relatively young (or at least, immature...) Thanks for the insightful response. I agree that the maturity of the group varies. In this group almost everyone is 30-34. The girl who got pulled in/had her top taken off is the youngest (26), and the only one younger than 30.
Author Absolutely Curtains Posted August 31, 2009 Author Posted August 31, 2009 Huh, sounds like there was quite a bit of drama. I agree with some of the things the above poster said; however, I also don't get why the bf didn't care about the first thing and he did about the second. Obviously he shouldn't be mad at his gf in the first situation; he should be mad at the guy, but he wasn't. It also doesn't sound to me like he was supportive of his gf in that situation - he just ignored what was going on, was my take on it. He didn't even support her when they talked about it later. Second, it seemed like he made a scene in the second situation - but he didn't in the first. So again, he wasn't at all supportive of his gf. Was this the same bf who was encouraging tops coming off?? Yeah, unless he's keeping it to himself and literally not telling anyone (because we would all know if anything was said to the other guy), he really didn't care. She said he actually laughed a little when he said "Yeah, that was a little messed up." He was with her when she got pulled in, saw the whole thing happen... He did make a scene in the second situation, and yes, he was the one who was encouraging the tops coming off.
Trimmer Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Thanks for the insightful response. I agree that the maturity of the group varies. In this group almost everyone is 30-34. The girl who got pulled in/had her top taken off is the youngest (26), and the only one younger than 30. Wow, I guess that's older than I expected... My guess was post high-school. Doesn't it sound (sorry for the stereotypes) like a bunch of macho jocks kind of passing the women around, but then blanching when the women presume to dispay some sexual power of their own? And I'm glad you didn't take my "your group is immature..." comment personally - I thought, after hitting "send" that it might be a little harsh, but it wasn't meant to be directed at you. After all, you're the one observing and trying to figure it out...
butcher's hook Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 I just showed this to one of my guy friends and this is almost exactly what he said: the guy's a complete tool/a-hole; HE would've done something in this situation, even if the girl wasn't his gf - because no guy should be forcing/overpowering a girl like that, and get new friends, because these are have too much drama. I dunno I think it sounds a lot worse than it actually is. It was just a bunch of friends hanging out and they had too much to drink and they were horsing around. Sure the guy shouldn't be forcing himself but it's the type of scenario they are just joking around drunk and all done in the spirt of a laugh, who's going to jump in and stop that if it was really insutling the girl would have flipped out on the guy, that wasn't the case. If the girl was that upset why did she proceed to also let some woman take her top off? I dunno sounds like bunch of drunken fools acting out. I agree I thought this was a group in their early 20's not a bunch of 30 somethings, that's lame!
Trimmer Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 He did make a scene in the second situation, and yes, he was the one who was encouraging the tops coming off. That one's a little confusing, but again, it kinda makes sense: Since she's his property, it's cool for him to encourage her to take the top off - macho guy in front of the other guys... Inside Mr. Insecure was safe, though, assuming - and maybe praying - that she'd never actually do it. Then, when she essentially called his bluff, he couldn't help his insecurity bursting through to the surface. His encouraging her was to make himself look cool, and he was counting on her NOT doing it, to show that she "respected" him, and once again, reflect good impressions back on him. Once she did it, then it all broke down, partly because he realized that what he had encouraged her to do put her out of his control, and that was a very insecure position for him to find himself in. I also see some logic in her reaction to being upset at being pulled in, and his "non-reaction" to it. Remember, my whole premise is that she's his property, and that he primarily cares about the other guys' impressions of him. So by fighting off and acting upset when she got pulled in the first time, she "did the right thing" in his eyes - "respected" him by saying no. He didn't have to do anything more - again, by laughing it off, he looks cool in front of the guys, but her refusal also reflects well on him: she's his territory. Again, though, that all came apart when she "let her top be taken off"...
New Again Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 I dunno I think it sounds a lot worse than it actually is. It was just a bunch of friends hanging out and they had too much to drink and they were horsing around. Sure the guy shouldn't be forcing himself but it's the type of scenario they are just joking around drunk and all done in the spirt of a laugh, who's going to jump in and stop that if it was really insutling the girl would have flipped out on the guy, that wasn't the case. If the girl was that upset why did she proceed to also let some woman take her top off? I dunno sounds like bunch of drunken fools acting out. I agree I thought this was a group in their early 20's not a bunch of 30 somethings, that's lame! I don't know how you can think that a guy forcing a girl who was PROTESTING and OBVIOUSLY MAD is OK but it's a terrible crime to let a girl who is rubbing your back undo your top. I can understand NOT being OK with a GUY ripping your pants off, but being comfortable with your girl friend doing that. Obviously the fact that her bf AND another guy were there complicates the second scenario, but still...
butcher's hook Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 I don't know how you can think that a guy forcing a girl who was PROTESTING and OBVIOUSLY MAD is OK but it's a terrible crime to let a girl who is rubbing your back undo your top. I can understand NOT being OK with a GUY ripping your pants off, but being comfortable with your girl friend doing that. Obviously the fact that her bf AND another guy were there complicates the second scenario, but still... Oh come off of it, this wasn't a rape it was a bunch of drunken people horsing around. There are always going to be lines crosses when people are drunk. They are all adults if the act was truly one that was violent she would have got her butt out of the hot tub got dressed and gone home. She didn't so clearly it wasn't that bad. She proceeded to take off her top next.... I am not excusing what the guy did, I would have been mad and gotten out of the hottub and more than likely my man would clock the guy who did that to me. But i can tell you this much there is no way in heck I am staying in that party if that is done to me and it's as bad as you think it is, and I would even less proceed to take my top off. Now if it was a bunch of me and my friends horsing around drunk then whatev..
New Again Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Oh come off of it, this wasn't a rape it was a bunch of drunken people horsing around. There are always going to be lines crosses when people are drunk. They are all adults if the act was truly one that was violent she would have got her butt out of the hot tub got dressed and gone home. She didn't so clearly it wasn't that bad. She proceeded to take off her top next.... I am not excusing what the guy did, I would have been mad and gotten out of the hottub and more than likely my man would clock the guy who did that to me. But i can tell you this much there is no way in heck I am staying in that party if that is done to me and it's as bad as you think it is, and I would even less proceed to take my top off. Now if it was a bunch of me and my friends horsing around drunk then whatev.. So one situation is horsing around (guys will be guys as Trimmer said) and the other one is a bunch of girls acting like sluts? Are you kidding me? And as you stated, they were DRUNK, so where was she supposed to go? Hop in her car and drive home? OK, that's a fantastic idea. How is the one line being crossed OK and the other one not OK?
butcher's hook Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 So one situation is horsing around (guys will be guys as Trimmer said) and the other one is a bunch of girls acting like sluts? Are you kidding me? And as you stated, they were DRUNK, so where was she supposed to go? Hop in her car and drive home? OK, that's a fantastic idea. How is the one line being crossed OK and the other one not OK? Get dressed and call a cab,, how's that for an idea? Where were they in the middle east hottubbing in the desert? they never left because it wasn't that bad, in the least she would have gotten out of the hottub if she was THAT offended. she wasn't because it wasn't so bad, it was annoying sure, but it wasn't so bad. I don't know what happened exactly all we have to go on are the sketchy third party details we are getting from someone who already has their mind made up in terms of her own biased opinion of the situation. According to what is being put forth here, you can't expect sound judgment from a bunch of drunken 30 somethings acting like yahoos.
Author Absolutely Curtains Posted August 31, 2009 Author Posted August 31, 2009 Wow, I guess that's older than I expected... My guess was post high-school. Doesn't it sound (sorry for the stereotypes) like a bunch of macho jocks kind of passing the women around, but then blanching when the women presume to dispay some sexual power of their own? And I'm glad you didn't take my "your group is immature..." comment personally - I thought, after hitting "send" that it might be a little harsh, but it wasn't meant to be directed at you. After all, you're the one observing and trying to figure it out... I'm also somewhat shocked and...dismayed...about what happened and people's reactions to it, and this is in large part due to everyone's ages. Especially the guy who dragged my friend into the hot tub...he is the oldest, he was married for several years, and I've always perceived him as treating my other friend, his gf, with the utmost respect. That one's a little confusing, but again, it kinda makes sense: Since she's his property, it's cool for him to encourage her to take the top off - macho guy in front of the other guys... Inside Mr. Insecure was safe, though, assuming - and maybe praying - that she'd never actually do it. Then, when she essentially called his bluff, he couldn't help his insecurity bursting through to the surface. His encouraging her was to make himself look cool, and he was counting on her NOT doing it, to show that she "respected" him, and once again, reflect good impressions back on him. Once she did it, then it all broke down, partly because he realized that what he had encouraged her to do put her out of his control, and that was a very insecure position for him to find himself in. I also see some logic in her reaction to being upset at being pulled in, and his "non-reaction" to it. Remember, my whole premise is that she's his property, and that he primarily cares about the other guys' impressions of him. So by fighting off and acting upset when she got pulled in the first time, she "did the right thing" in his eyes - "respected" him by saying no. He didn't have to do anything more - again, by laughing it off, he looks cool in front of the guys, but her refusal also reflects well on him: she's his territory. Again, though, that all came apart when she "let her top be taken off"... I like your analysis. It makes a lot of sense to me, and actually my take on one possible reason he didn't say anything about the guy pulling his gf into the hot tub is because he wants to appear a certain way to this guy.
Author Absolutely Curtains Posted August 31, 2009 Author Posted August 31, 2009 Get dressed and call a cab' date=', how's that for an idea? [b']Where were they in the middle east hottubbing in the desert?[/b] they never left because it wasn't that bad, in the least she would have gotten out of the hottub if she was THAT offended. she wasn't because it wasn't so bad, it was annoying sure, but it wasn't so bad. I don't know what happened exactly all we have to go on are the sketchy third party details we are getting from someone who already has their mind made up in terms of her own biased opinion of the situation. According to what is being put forth here, you can't expect sound judgment from a bunch of drunken 30 somethings acting like yahoos. Actually yes, it was a very similar situation, though of course less ridiculous than your sarcastic comment. It was impossible for anyone to leave unless they drove. What she ended up doing was locking herself in her room and only coming out when the other guy went to bed. I was there, saw everything (I was in or next to the hot tub in both situations), and was present for ensuing arguments. I don't recall ever voicing an opinion on this situation, just asking for opinions. However, my opinion of the situation is this: everyone had too much to drink. Boundaries were crossed. No one handled anything very well. If a guy has a problem with his gf taking her top off, then 1. he shouldn't encourage her to and 2. she shouldn't do it. I think a bf should defend his gf. I think it's unfortunate that this girl had so much to drink, because I believe it's a combination of being drunk, being encouraged by her bf, being comfortable with the other girls, and the fact that someone else did, and someone else undid her top that made her decide to allow for this to happen. I think it was poor judgment on her part. It is my opinion that her bf has many good qualities, and in many ways is a good person, but that he is very self-absorbed. I also think that the other girl who took her top off is simply very comfortable with nudity. If she knew her bf would have a problem, she shouldn't have done it, out of respect and out of a desire to not cause drama. However, I also think that she likes seeing how far she can push things sometimes.
butcher's hook Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 So let me get this straight here is a girl who practically gets raped at a party infront of everyone and all the entire house does is wait for this perp. to go to bed while she hides out in a room? And you say "her room" was this her house? Why didn't anyone call the police instead of letting the guy go to sleep at the house, what are you a bunch of monsters? I just don't think it's quite that bad. sorry. If it is your friends are really rank and it doesn't say much for you either who sat there and watched the whole thing go down and did nothing. Look I don't know I was not there but judging by what you tell us here it sounds like if I were the guy I'd be questioning if I was dating a floosy. 1. I don't know what kind of man would stand by and let another man practically rape his woman infront of a bunch of people at a party 2. what type of person who has just been through that proceeds to stick around and then to make matters worse removes her top in the hottub. something just doesn't add up here with the story. Either it was bunch of drunken fools acting like morons or something serious went down and you have really low friends.
Trimmer Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 What the heck are you two arguing about? Aren't you both agreeing on this fundamental point: ...it was bunch of drunken fools acting like morons... Don't you both agree that it was a bunch of people with too much alcohol and too little good judgement, and that any number of the people who were there could have acted differently - and better? Beyond that, you're arguing the semantics and subtleties of the situation as if you have a grave, fundamental disagreement, which I don't think you do. 1. I don't know what kind of man would stand by and let another man practically rape his woman infront of a bunch of people at a party Given that we agree that that's not what this was (you actually introduced the word "rape" to the thread, by way of claiming that this wasn't it.... Nobody had claimed it was - the OP's statement was that the girl was "protesting...and mad"), I've already suggested a rationale for his poor behavior: a guy who is more wrapped up in what the other guys think than standing by his girlfriend. Not cool, and no way for a decent man to behave, but sadly, not unheard of... 2. what type of person who has just been through that proceeds to stick around and then to make matters worse removes her top in the hottub. Someone who needs lots of attention focused on herself. Subtract maturity and add alcohol. Heat to 104° F, and stir with bubbles. Serve with a side-dish of drama. These aren't cool people to be around, when they are like this, but it's not like it's a total shock that they exist...
butcher's hook Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 What the heck are you two arguing about? Aren't you both agreeing on this fundamental point: Don't you both agree that it was a bunch of people with too much alcohol and too little good judgement, and that any number of the people who were there could have acted differently - and better? Exactly! It's drunken fools acting like idiots. Why question the morality of the situation now from any aspect, when no one seemed to give a darn during. THAT'S my point. I introduced the word "rape" because the OP makes it seem like the girl was forced to do something she did not want to do, perhaps that's a harsh word. She felt manipulated into taking her pants and top off? Better?
Trimmer Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Exactly! It's drunken fools acting like idiots. Why question the morality of the situation now from any aspect' date=' when no one seemed to give a darn during.[/quote'] I agree on the main point, but I don't agree with not questioning the situation after the fact. I think that in spite of being drunk, and that being a possible explanation for the behaviors, that the parties involved are still responsible for their behaviors and choices. I don't let anyone off the hook for their behavior "because I was soooooo drunk." And I think it is possible that the people involved did wrestle with dilemmas internally, in spite of the fact that their lowered inhibitions allowed them to move forward with their bad behaviors. So the questioning and analysis after the fact is a way of saying: is there a way I could have - should have - acted differently? Is there a different way I can view these behaviors that may make more sense if it happens again in the future? It's a learning experience. Unfortunately the people in most need of such post-party soul-searching (topless-girl and her BF) are probably the ones least likely to do so. I introduced the word "rape" because the OP makes it seem like the girl was forced to do something she did not want to do' date=' perhaps that's a harsh word. She felt manipulated into taking her pants and top off? Better?[/quote'] I understand - it just seemed like your beef on that particular point was more with New Again, but you kind of swung the disagreement back over to the OP, who has pretty much given an objective view of the behaviors she obseved...
donnamaybe Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 She felt manipulated into taking her pants and top off? Better? I might be missing something, but I recall she was held by some guy who was forcibly removing her pants. I can't shake the feeling that you want to blame this gal for every aspect of this situation, and I have to wonder why. Yeah, the top coming off was of her own volition, but not the episode with the pants, at least as told by the OP who was actually present.
butcher's hook Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 I might be missing something, but I recall she was held by some guy who was forcibly removing her pants. I can't shake the feeling that you want to blame this gal for every aspect of this situation, and I have to wonder why. I blame all the stupid actions on the heavy alcohol consumption really. Yeah, the top coming off was of her own volition, but not the episode with the pants, at least as told by the OP who was actually present. In fact I am not blaming anyone for anything, if the ambivalence of my response seems to point in that direction it's simply because the story doesn't make any sense at all. @Trimmer How exactly are we getting and objective view? We went from: Everyone gets totally hammered. 6 people are in the hot tub - 4 of the girls and 2 of their bfs. 2 girls' bathing suit tops end up coming off (for two different reasons). No one can see anything (it's dark/night, there's bubbles, no one wants to flash anyone...). Now, obviously I know how this scenario worked out, and I'm a little surprised and not sure what to think. So my question is: please state if you're a male or female, and your take on this (would you be mad, uncomfortable, etc.) To: I sat there and watched the whole thing go down when another guy forced her pants off and then she proceeded to lock herself in the room until he went to bed and her man just watched. That is quite different than the original post it seems there was a quite a transgression of events to that evening. Who knows what the heck happened and why? Speculating like this is futile from the onlookers perspective with so many mixed up deatils. We are getting bits and pieces of information as we post our views.
New Again Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 In fact I am not blaming anyone for anything, if the ambivalence of my response seems to point in that direction it's simply because the story doesn't make any sense at all. @Trimmer How exactly are we getting and objective view? We went from: To: That is quite different than the original post it seems there was a quite a transgression of events to that evening. Who knows what the heck happened and why? Speculating like this is futile from the onlookers perspective with so many mixed up deatils. We are getting bits and pieces of information as we post our views. Can you explain why you don't think it makes sense? It makes sense to me... Secondly, my take was actually that the OP initially wanted to know how people would feel in that situation (OP), without getting into her specific story; however several posters in a row didn't answer the OP but asked for more info, which is why she gave more specific details.
butcher's hook Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Can you explain why you don't think it makes sense? It makes sense to me... however several posters in a row didn't answer the OP but asked for more info, which is why she gave more specific details. . It doesn't to me, I already explained why. Posters asked for more information because the OP didnt make sense that's why
Author Absolutely Curtains Posted August 31, 2009 Author Posted August 31, 2009 The OP reworded: A group of friends who are all very close and have known each other for years get together one weekend. While 4 of the girls and 2 of their bfs are in the hot tub, 2 of the girls take their tops off. TRY TO IMAGINE YOURSELF IN SUCH A SITUATION. Would you be angry in this situation? Specifically, if you are a guy, how would you feel in this situation? If you are a girl, how would you feel if your bf were mad about this? That's all I wanted to know, and I think the main point is people have problems with nudity, therefore more specific details do not need to be given. In my specific situation, the 2 bfs were mad. Not one single girl understood what they were so mad about. I don't know how to take that - because honestly I don't really care if he's RIGHT to be mad, the fact is that he IS mad, and I feel like that should be acknowledged; not just a whatever, you shouldn't be mad so I don't care. So I'm wondering are those normal reactions from guys/girls. Butcher's hook, please do not answer this, or take this as me asking you for your opinion. You have already given it and I understand your point of view and what you are saying.
butcher's hook Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Butcher's hook, please do not answer this, or take this as me asking you for your opinion. You have already given it and I understand your point of view and what you are saying. I already gave my opinion if you didn't want it you should not have asked for public opinion.
Author Absolutely Curtains Posted August 31, 2009 Author Posted August 31, 2009 I already gave my opinion if you didn't want it you should not have asked for public opinion. I don't mind you or anyone else giving their opinion. However, you have already given yours, so despite the fact that I tried to clarify the OP, I don't want you to think that is directed at YOU, asking YOU for YOUR opinion YET AGAIN. The reason being your posts are rude, nasty, confrontational, judgmental and unhelpful. All you're doing is bashing me, other posters, and my friends without giving any constructive insight into the situation.
Recommended Posts