How do I do it?

[Phateless]

Oh good grief!

Excuse me, but isn't that the whole point?

Haven't you been saying the whole way through you've had enough?

Surely, the whole point of "I've had enough" is that there is NO going back - ?

 

 

No pschyt Sherlock!

That is entirely your problem!

It's not her - it's you!

If you were a little more decisive, this might well have been sorted long ago!

 

 

So basically, she feels you've mind-phukked her...

 

 

 

No.

The problem is you're so indecisive and you prevaricate so much, she doesn't know where she stands with you any more.

No wonder she's so highly strung - I guess I might be too, if my partner didn't know whether he was coming, going, been, gone or went!

 

You need to be more decisive and call a spade a bloody shovel.

While you see-saw like this, no wonder you make no progress!

 

I'm sorry, but I had no idea just how much of a flapper you were....

No wonder this whole thing is insane....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quite how this is still the case, is anybody's guess....

Really, Phateless....what are you like - ?!?

 

The reason I've been going back and forth is because it was so amazing in the beginning until she turned on me, and I never wanted to leave her, I always just wanted to be with her.

 

She'd push me away until I had no choice but to leave, then beg me to stay. This has happened over and over.

 

If I had been more decisive and walked away when she first started getting ridiculous, it would have ended a long time ago. Or maybe she would have got her act together, we'd have got back together, and things would be good right now. Who knows...

 

The one thing I do know is that coming down on me for being indecisive serves no purpose other than venting your own frustration. It does NOT help me figure out my issues. Your post wreaks of judgment, attacks, and criticism. Posts like the one above are the reason I don't usually start threads. You're not helping me with this post, you're blaming me. You've decided it's all my fault.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Phateless

[TaraMaiden]

Oh come on....!

 

You have to step up and take responsibility for what you are - or are not - doing.

It's a question of push-me-pull-you, here.

This is what I'm trying to make you realise. You react to her, reacting to you, reacting to her, reacting to you...it's just a tug of war.

 

The reason neither of you are making any progress, is because neither of you are making any effort to change how you operate.

You've just admitted it in your post - more than once.

 

The reason I've been going back and forth is because it was so amazing in the beginning until she turned on me, and I never wanted to leave her, I always just wanted to be with her.

 

She'd push me away until I had no choice but to leave, then beg me to stay. This has happened over and over.

 

If I had been more decisive and walked away when she first started getting ridiculous, it would have ended a long time ago. Or maybe she would have got her act together, we'd have got back together, and things would be good right now. Who knows...

This is precisely the point I'm making.

You must know the quotation:

"Insanity is doing THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN - and expecting a different result."

This - is - insanity.

 

The one thing I do know is that coming down on me for being indecisive serves no purpose other than venting your own frustration

Frustration is right.

But until you get it, it's impossible to be anything but.

 

Read your thread again.

Go back to post one.

Read what you say there.

And from that point on, everyone has tried to get through to you.

CAll this post trying to give you a good shake-up, because honestly, you both need your heads knocking together..., but this....?

....Your post wreaks of judgment, attacks, and criticism. Posts like the one above are the reason I don't usually start threads. You're not helping me with this post, you're blaming me. You've decided it's all my fault.

 

That's just silly.

Don't play the deeply injured party when you find yourself in the lather-rinse-repeat scenario, which is of your own making. You have admitted as much. And despite everyone trying to give you constructive ways to proceed, you insist on stonewalling everyone.

You keep putting up objections ...

yes but...what if....?

 

ok, answer the question.

What if?

What if your leaving ends it for good?

So, what then?

 

You can't take a decisive action and hope for an indecisive result...

 

 

You see, you actually find yourself in a situation where it is actually impossible to move forward, (or in any direction) without making a definite black-or-white decision.

You've reached the point where "The rubber meets the road".

Something has got to happen.

This is the deal-breaker.

You said so.

 

So do something.

 

"He who deliberates fully before taking any step, will spend his entire life on one leg."

 

I just think you've been standing on one leg for far too long.

 

It's time to take a step.

You know it.

I know it.

Everybody knows it.

 

You just need to find that gramme of confidence which finally makes you put your foot down.

[starryeyed12]

Oy vey, many times. She says they are not power plays and she escalates because she's so freaked out of losing me. She says that if she knew I wanted to be with her long-term she wouldn't be like this.

 

Problem is there's no way I'm giving her any kind of long-term commitment as long as she continues to act this way.

 

 

Hmm I would be leery of this part of her argument.

 

It's as if she is saying that she wants the closest thing to your unconditional commitment without marriage so she can feel as though the ball has been permanently placed in her court. Problem is, does that mean that you will have to become the dreaded doormat for it to work out with this woman? Have you already demonstrated to her that you can be this?

 

How often do you win an arguement? From the sounds of it, this woman needs to learn to pick her battles. On the other hand, maybe you aren't listening to her perspective, so you are just arguing about the same things over and over. The stress of constant fighting (even over irrelevant things) is taking its toll as you have said, yet neither are budging. Are you sure there is long term compatibility there? Sorry for all the questions, but it sounds as if she is trying to change something about you more so than just the moving in thing. If so, note that trying to change someone is typically an indication that there are compatibility flaws. (I know from recent experience )

 

She'd push me away until I had no choice but to leave, then beg me to stay. This has happened over and over.

 

This makes me think that she is either not ready for you or wants something that you can't give her right now or ever. Basically she wants to be able to change something about you. Until this change comes, she will continue to be insecure.

 

Her insecurity will ravage your relationship because it is making you feel as though you can not have any of your own feelings- hence the fights. You probably feel as if you are constantly walking on eggshells to keep the peace. There is more to her arguing than just wanting more committment with the move in. Whatever this other issue is, it is causing her to push to the breaking point. She wants you to be the one to break it off. She doesn't have the balls to do it, but she is unhappy. Then you do and she has an attack of loneliness, insecurity, maybe even guilt over what she did to push you, and wants you back. You come back, but the underlying issues remain and her unhappiness will persist. Sounds like a contradiction since she wants you to move in, but something in her knows you aren't ready as badly as she wants it to work with you.

 

You both are very stubborn, but probably do love each other to an extent. I suspect you have other compatibility issues, but this is the deal breaker- this is what she is trying to change in you since she too is a stubborn one. Two stubborn people will never see eye to eye. Two stubborn people can only find real happiness during the brief infatuation stage of a relationship, in which both of you see each other as wonderful and perfect. This stage eventually leads into the "let down" or the reality stage where you both begin to see each others flaws. With two stubborn people this can lead to your demise because you constantly fight over stupid things since neither one can back down from an arguement properly or pick their battles wisely. In order to be healthy you are going to have to lose some fights, see some things from his/her persepective WITHOUT holding a grudge or carrying any pent up animosity.

 

You have been using the wonderful times from the infatuation stage of your relationship to fuel you through this rough reality stage. That said, I think the damage has been done, and the only thing you can do now is follow your original instinct. Give some time apart and maybe you can start fresh, maybe not.

 

If you make the decision to leave, stick to it. Otherwise you will be strapping yourself in to the emotional rollercoaster ride from h#ll.

 

Good luck.

Edited August 4, 2010 by starryeyed12

[Phateless]

Edit - wanna do bullet points.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Phateless

[Phateless]

Wow, thank you, StarryEyed, for a very insightful post!! Seriously, you totally get me...

 

-She does want an unconditional commitment - she wants marriage and a family SOMEDAY. Right now she just wants us to live together soon. In the past I was the doormat and she got really mean and the sex virtually dried up. I think she lost attraction to me.

 

-She DOES need to learn to pick her battles. I listen to her perspective, but she gets too emotional to listen to mine. That's a big problem. It's hard to discuss anything with her.

 

-I also suspect she's pushing me away and wants me to end it, but I think the reason is because she thinks I'll never commit to her.

 

-We are both stubborn, but we're working on it.

 

-She worries that i won't ever be able to give her a commitment. In the beginning (2/3 months??) we moved very fast and talked about how moving in together would be fun SOMEDAY, but we weren't ready yet. I was VERY CLEAR about this.

 

Shortly after we started dating, she moved out of her parents and got her own place. I had just moved here from out of town and had been crashing with my parents for a month. She says that when I found an apartment of my own she felt like I slammed on the brakes in our relationship.

 

Turns out she expected that I would move in with her at her place, even though we specifically discussed that I would not live in that area, and that I was not ready to live together yet.

 

Basically things have been rough pretty much since that point, with brief windows of peace and serenity that always end with a fight.

 

Either she gets insecure and won't accept my explanation, or I try to talk to her about my feelings and she gets upset and can only talk about her feelings about my feelings. From that point we go around in circles for hours, sometimes a day or two.

 

She has been a lot better lately about staying calm, but she does still interrupt me often, and when I bring up my feelings, she usually talks about her own feelings instead of addressing mine. At least now she's doing it calmly at first, until she gets upset.

 

Her last relationship ended because the guy didn't want to ever move forward and move out of his parents' house or move in with her and get married, so she's insecure about that happening again.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Phateless

[starryeyed12]

-She DOES need to learn to pick her battles. I listen to her perspective, but she gets too emotional to listen to mine. That's a big problem. It's hard to discuss anything with her.

 

-I also suspect she's pushing me away and wants me to end it, but I think the reason is because she thinks I'll never commit to her.

 

-We are both stubborn, but we're working on it.

 

-She worries that i won't ever be able to give her a commitment. In the beginning (2/3 months??) we moved very fast and talked about how moving in together would be fun SOMEDAY, but we weren't ready yet. I was VERY CLEAR about this.

 

 

These are big red flags that you are NOT ready to move in together. I can almost guarantee that living together will only magnify your problems 110%.

 

Its important that you understand that her role in the fighting and pushing away is rooted in something deeper than you not taking the next step of moving in. She wants to be in control of her partner, yet at that same time it sounds like she is not attracted to the type of partner who is a puppet. This is quite confusing and a sure-fire sign of immaturity.

 

You talk about moving fast in the beginning stages. Another indication that you have just been using fuel from the infatuation stage to continue the charade to the more deeper levels of a relationship.

 

It bears repeating that 2 stubborn people do not have high success rates in relationships. Think of all the unneccesary work you will constantly be putting yourself through in the years to come to make this work...if you even can. You recognize that you are stubborn, but how much can you honestly change that? You may not ever be able to properly change that about yourself, let alone the stubborness in her!

 

I highly advise you to not move in together.

 

On a personal level, I think if you can avoid moving in together before marriage you are better off. I know that many, many people will disagree with me and I do understand that some people almost require this before marriage, or move in together because they do not put high value into marriage or do not wish be in one- they have made other kinds of committments. I don't have a problem with that. To each his own.

 

However, IMO, I think if you are in your mid to early 20s, have a stable situation in which you both can survive without co-habitating I would advise not moving in before marriage. Give her a drawer or 2 or 5 at your place, but do not move in completely.

 

Again totally my opinion and observations, but I think once a couple moves in together the pressure to take the next step becomes immense. From my observations of friends and family, I have seen people get married and later divorced because they thought marriage was just the next step and felt pressure to do so since they were living together. ALL of your possessions and your life become enmeshed with this other person, and it becomes very difficult and exponentially more painful to get out if things do go sour.

 

It is not hard for me to foresee this happening to you if you choose to move in. I think you need to think very deeply about what you really want out of the most important relationship in your life. DO NOT let her push you into a major step that you are not ready for. She has some major issues if she is making you feel pressured, let alone that she did that to her previous bf when they were obviously not ready for that kind of committment either! I still say follow your original instinct and let this one go soon. Its not going to get better or stay better for long.

 

I'm very sorry. Good luck.

Edited August 4, 2010 by starryeyed12

[Phateless]

These are big red flags that you are NOT ready to move in together. I can almost guarantee that living together will only magnify your problems 110%.

 

Its important that you understand that her role in the fighting and pushing away is rooted in something deeper than you not taking the next step of moving in. She wants to be in control of her partner, yet at that same time it sounds like she is not attracted to the type of partner who is a puppet. This is quite confusing and a sure-fire sign of immaturity.

 

You talk about moving fast in the beginning stages. Another indication that you have just been using fuel from the infatuation stage to continue the charade to the more deeper levels of a relationship.

 

It bears repeating that 2 stubborn people do not have high success rates in relationships. Think of all the unneccesary work you will constantly be putting yourself through in the years to come to make this work...if you even can. You recognize that you are stubborn, but how much can you honestly change that? You may not ever be able to properly change that about yourself, let alone the stubborness in her!

 

I highly advise you to not move in together.

 

On a personal level, I think if you can avoid moving in together before marriage you are better off. I know that many, many people will disagree with me and I do understand that some people almost require this before marriage, or move in together because they do not put high value into marriage or do not wish be in one- they have made other kinds of committments. I don't have a problem with that. To each his own.

 

However, IMO, I think if you are in your mid to early 20s, have a stable situation in which you both can survive without co-habitating I would advise not moving in before marriage. Give her a drawer or 2 or 5 at your place, but do not move in completely.

 

Again totally my opinion and observations, but I think once a couple moves in together the pressure to take the next step becomes immense. From my observations of friends and family, I have seen people get married and later divorced because they thought marriage was just the next step and felt pressure to do so since they were living together. ALL of your possessions and your life become enmeshed with this other person, and it becomes very difficult and exponentially more painful to get out if things do go sour.

 

It is not hard for me to foresee this happening to you if you choose to move in. I think you need to think very deeply about what you really want out of the most important relationship in your life. DO NOT let her push you into a major step that you are not ready for. She has some major issues if she is making you feel pressured, let alone that she did that to her previous bf when they were obviously not ready for that kind of committment either! I still say follow your original instinct and let this one go soon. Its not going to get better or stay better for long.

 

I'm very sorry. Good luck.

 

Everything you said I've been thinking for quite a long time now, and I agree 100%. She keeps thinking that our problems will improve if we move in together and I keep trying to tell her that the opposite will happen. She doesn't believe me. When it comes down to it I think she's just plain immature, and it's as simple as that.

 

I actually lived with my ex for about a year and a half, so I do have experience with all of this. She hates it when I bring this up and gets mad at me for comparing her to my ex.

 

Thank you very much for all of your help and insight, it really helps to hear it echoed back so I know I'm not completely crazy.

 

Right now we've agreed to be perfect for each other for the next month to see how it goes. Hopefully that will allow the tension to subside and us to move forward. If this doesn't work, I guess I have my answer...

[Sophia8]

The reason I've been going back and forth is because it was so amazing in the beginning...

 

I think that that is one of the biggest problems, you need to stop focusing on how things were and start focusing on how things are now and where do you see the relationship going. Right now, do you actually see your relationship going anywhere? In one year from now, where do you see your relationship? In five years from now, where do you see your relationship? and so on. You don't have to answer those questions on the site but it may be worthwhile answering them to yourself.

 

You either need to both work out a compromise that will work for the both of you, after all (as mentioned earlier) you believe that she needs to change and she probably believes that you need to change in order for the cycle to be broken, or you need to pick up the courage and walk away.

[threebyfate]

Phateless, is there any reason why the two of you couldn't do a month or two of living together at one of the two homes but maintaining both?

[Phateless]

Phateless, is there any reason why the two of you couldn't do a month or two of living together at one of the two homes but maintaining both?

 

I love your idea, BUT...

 

My room is too small for two people and her house is too far away from everything I love doing. (I live near a major city and she lives about 35 miles toward the middle of nowhere.) Plus I have weekly networking meetings right near my house. Also, she keeps her room a mess, which drives me nuts.

[threebyfate]

I love your idea, BUT...

 

My room is too small for two people and her house is too far away from everything I love doing. (I live near a major city and she lives about 35 miles toward the middle of nowhere.) Plus I have weekly networking meetings right near my house. Also, she keeps her room a mess, which drives me nuts.

If she agreed to maintain a clean home which includes your participation, would you be willing the drive the additional 35 miles?

[Phateless]

If she agreed to maintain a clean home which includes your participation, would you be willing the drive the additional 35 miles?

 

Right now, no. I need some space, given how things have been. If things get better AND STAY BETTER I would certainly give that a shot down the line. Plus I would need that one night a week at my house for the early meetings.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Phateless

[threebyfate]

Right now, no. I need some space, given how things have been. If things get better AND STAY BETTER I would certainly give that a shot down the line.

I understand and agree. But it might be a good next step reliant on how your "perfect" month works out.

 

You realize that both of you are looking for empirical proof that will never exist when it comes to emotions and relationships.

[Phateless]

I understand and agree. But it might be a good next step reliant on how your "perfect" month works out.

 

You realize that both of you are looking for empirical proof that will never exist when it comes to emotions and relationships.

 

She's promised and let me down soo many times that I want to see it happen before I believe it.

[threebyfate]

She's promised and let me down soo many times that I want to see it happen before I believe it.

Hopefully, the next month will help to alleviate your concerns. I also forgot to mention that you wouldn't tell her that you're considering a trial period, until she proves she's capable of sticking to her word.

 

From the sounds of it, she's highly emotion driven and lacks discipline in her efforts to control herself. Once she loses it, it's near impossible for her to recover her equilibrium.

 

But you also have things to own, which you've expressed within this thread. You try to rationalize emotion and that won't work with someone who's highly emotive.

 

I dunno Phateless. You know my perception of her. But you're determined to make it work so I can try to give you advice to help forward your wants.

 

To address your possibility of regret, seriously take a look at what makes her so special to you. Are these special traits so unusual that they can't be found elsewhere, in a less drama driven relationship?

[Phateless]

Hopefully, the next month will help to alleviate your concerns. I also forgot to mention that you wouldn't tell her that you're considering a trial period, until she proves she's capable of sticking to her word.

 

From the sounds of it, she's highly emotion driven and lacks discipline in her efforts to control herself. Once she loses it, it's near impossible for her to recover her equilibrium.

 

But you also have things to own, which you've expressed within this thread. You try to rationalize emotion and that won't work with someone who's highly emotive.

 

I dunno Phateless. You know my perception of her. But you're determined to make it work so I can try to give you advice to help forward your wants.

 

To address your possibility of regret, seriously take a look at what makes her so special to you. Are these special traits so unusual that they can't be found elsewhere, in a less drama driven relationship?

 

As usual, TBF, you're right on the money.

 

I think the main thing I love is our friendship and connection. She gets me!

 

As for the rest, you're pretty much right and I chalk it up to general immaturity. It's not something I see myself "training" out of her, and it's not something I see her learning on her own any time soon. *sigh*

 

I guess it's just general terror of feeling alone and lonely and abandoned.

[SLS002]

Well I understand how you feel,but tell her that you want end this relationship is that hard for you? You should also distract yourself from her and focus on other things. People rarely change,even they say they will,unless they really wanna change but that also base on their minds.I think you should just give up on your girl.