Author TaraMaiden Posted August 20, 2009 Author Posted August 20, 2009 ((Tara)) I'm sorry you have to go through this Tara. sounds to me though that you yourself aren't sure you want things to end. You know things have to change, but I can understand why he doesn't get that you two are over: he asked you flat out if you wanted things to end and it doesn't sound like you told him that YES that's what you want. You asked him instead if he needed money... It's like I said to him yesterday - Some men are idiots, but not all women are bitches. I'm not being heartless here, he has no money. we've been together 4 years, and he's jobless currently, though I'm sure he'll change that soon enough. But without money he has nowhere to go and nothing to do. I offered him money to be nice, not because I'm confused. But I see why you've mentioned it, thank you. Tara, ask yourself this: what do you want and need right now? Then tell him what it is that you want and need. It could be a break up or it could be to see him get his act together. But it can't be both. You realize that, don't you? oooh yes. He sees it too. but he'd rather cut and run and branch out on his own than ever admit that he really is to blame and needs to change - and actually follow through. he just cannot believe I'd ditch him like this. I think he's in shock. I'm waiting for tangible proof of willingness to change. I'm waiting for him to make the effort, not the token gesture. I'm open to continuing this - if he can prove to me he can meet me half way, not give me the lion's share of the workload. I need 100% commitment form him to be a 50% partner. I need actions not words. I just realized that this could easily be misinterpreted. I was being a wise guy, referencing all the "karma" threads which drive you a bit batty; didn't mean to imply that what you're going through is in any way related to karma. Whatever that is. I know - it's cool..... I'm laughing here. Remebering that this too accrues karma.....!
seoa Posted August 21, 2009 Posted August 21, 2009 What finally blew me over the edge? He took our last - and I do mean, last - £140.00 and gambled it away. We're not absolutely destitute, but I've had to cash in my savings account (there's £2,500 in it, which will just cover our used-up overdraft) and I get paid on the 27th.... Until then, though, we have no money. at all. Mind you, he tried to give me my engagement ring back, and I said I wasn't ready, at all, to do that. ok, having haunted this forum for a while, i've just registed to respond to this... you say that he took your last bit of money... that implies to me that you have a joint account... and then (after that?) you transferred your savings into the same account, to cover the OD...? honey, get that money out again... do whatever you have to do to protect your money... if he throws a tantrum & withdraws more, whatcha gonna do...? i realise i might have misunderstood - after all, you offered him some cash last night, so maybe he can't access your money, which is good... also - if the engagement ring is worth anything, take it back off him...!! sorry to sound mercenary, but it sounds like you've been the sole wage earner for a while, so i'm betting you paid for that ring in the first place... yeah i know - loveshack is usually all about the emotional advice - but then money is power, and NC and 2nd-chances etc are all about re-balancing the power in the relationship, so i guess it's not so far out...
deux ex machina Posted August 21, 2009 Posted August 21, 2009 I couldn't have been clearer. "I'm sorry but I think you should leave, because I'm done here, really." And I gave him back my engagement ring. He really is refusing to accept I mean it. That's his problem, I'm afraid. I made it as clear as I could....... Nothing to add, just wanted to let you know I'm sorry this is going on. Pulling for you, Tara. Take care.
Author TaraMaiden Posted August 21, 2009 Author Posted August 21, 2009 ok, having haunted this forum for a while, i've just registed to respond to this... you say that he took your last bit of money... that implies to me that you have a joint account... No, the account is in my name. my boss owed me 6 days' work for the previous month, so rather than put it into my account, he gave it to me in cash. I gave it to him for safe keeping, because ususally, I'm dreadful with money. Ha ha... Not that bad! honey, get that money out again... do whatever you have to do to protect your money... if he throws a tantrum & withdraws more, whatcha gonna do...? i realise i might have misunderstood - after all, you offered him some cash last night, so maybe he can't access your money, which is good... he refuses to carry money around now. He's told me I hold the purse strings and that it's the way it has to be 'from now on'.... also - if the engagement ring is worth anything, take it back off him...!! That's against the law. If an engagement is broken, he is entitled to have the ring back, as a point of law. I really don't care about that, either. sorry to sound mercenary, but it sounds like you've been the sole wage earner for a while, so i'm betting you paid for that ring in the first place... Point one, is correct. Point two - he definitely paid for the ring. No question. It was 3 years ago, when he still had money.... yeah i know - loveshack is usually all about the emotional advice - but then money is power, and NC and 2nd-chances etc are all about re-balancing the power in the relationship, so i guess it's not so far out... I take your point and I sincerely thank you for your input. If only you knew how low the power that finances yield, is, on my list of priorities. I have been destitute, sincerely. I have known life virtually in a cardboard box. Whilst I am determined to never be there again, I know there are some things money has no edge on at all, because it's a pointless currency, when it comes to serenity, joy and contentment. Thanks for your comments.
Touche Posted August 21, 2009 Posted August 21, 2009 I couldn't have been clearer. "I'm sorry but I think you should leave, because I'm done here, really." And I gave him back my engagement ring. He really is refusing to accept I mean it. That's his problem, I'm afraid. I made it as clear as I could....... No you're not. YOu're sending mixed messages all over the place. Giving money, buying cigs, saying "i think you should leave." Very wishy-washy. Are you a goddess or a doormat? You're playing the role of both and therefore are neither really. And he knows it. I'm very sorry you're going through this though TM.
hotgurl Posted August 21, 2009 Posted August 21, 2009 is there any way you can get him removed for the lease. Give him 30 days. I am sure he has friends so he can crash there for away. Why didn't he work during school? why doesn't he have a job now?
Author TaraMaiden Posted August 21, 2009 Author Posted August 21, 2009 No you're not. YOu're sending mixed messages all over the place. Giving money, buying cigs, saying "i think you should leave." Very wishy-washy. I am not going to put myself in the position of being cruel, callous and hard-hearted, and treat the guy like sh*t. there is no way I am ever going to give him the ammunition to be ever able to turn round to anyone - including me - and say that I treated him with anything less than civility and consideration. I am doing for him, what I would do for anyone I am fond of. And I absolutely love him to bits, this is crushing me... Are you a goddess or a doormat? You're playing the role of both and therefore are neither really. And he knows it. No, he doesn't. he just can't believe I actually mean it. I'm neither a Goddess nor a Doormat. I am just someone who's trying to extricate herself from a 4-year relationship that has had its great moments, with as little collateral damage to my dignity, self-image and conscience, as possible. And believe me when I tell you that I will never meet his like again. I'm very sorry you're going through this though TM. Thank you hun, I appreciate it. And thanks for your comments. It's all food for thought, when all is said and done.... is there any way you can get him removed for the lease. That would be possible, but only with his consent. But I think, once he's earning, he will agree..... Give him 30 days. I am sure he has friends so he can crash there for away. No. His brother lives in Southampton (80 miles away) and his best friend lives 137 miles away. We have no circle of friends, other than that. Honestly, we don't. Why didn't he work during school? He did, when he could, during holidays. but he was a full-time student, and Law is a demanding mistress..... why doesn't he have a job now? Unemployment in the county we live in, has increased by 350% in the last 9 months. It's not for the want of trying. Though personally, I'm of the opinion that he may have to try harder.....
Author TaraMaiden Posted August 21, 2009 Author Posted August 21, 2009 Went out with my one good buddy (who knows both my partner and me) and she and I had a long discussion. Crux: I want two things: To be listened to, uninterrupted, until he GETS what I am saying. But really gets it. For him to put his money where his mouth is, walk the talk and let his actions roar louder than words. long-term and permanent. Chances of either happening? Slim And None.
Touche Posted August 21, 2009 Posted August 21, 2009 I am not going to put myself in the position of being cruel, callous and hard-hearted, and treat the guy like sh*t. there is no way I am ever going to give him the ammunition to be ever able to turn round to anyone - including me - and say that I treated him with anything less than civility and consideration. I am doing for him, what I would do for anyone I am fond of. And I absolutely love him to bits, this is crushing me... No one said you should be cruel. But he's not treating YOU like someone he loves and is fond of from the sound of it. No, he doesn't. he just can't believe I actually mean it. I'm neither a Goddess nor a Doormat. I am just someone who's trying to extricate herself from a 4-year relationship that has had its great moments, with as little collateral damage to my dignity, self-image and conscience, as possible. And believe me when I tell you that I will never meet his like again. He doesn't believe you mean it because your actions don't match up with what you're telling him. You say you'll never meet his like again...i hope not. I hope you meet someone a lot better, who treats you like an equal partner and not like his mother. Thank you hun, I appreciate it. And thanks for your comments. It's all food for thought, when all is said and done.... You're welcome. Hope you don't think I was too harsh but you and I always "tell it like it is" and can take it.
Trialbyfire Posted August 21, 2009 Posted August 21, 2009 TM, I agree with Touche. Set those boundaries and hold firm. He's acting like a spoiled child, throwing a tantrum and god forbid, pouting and whining.
Ariadne Posted August 21, 2009 Posted August 21, 2009 I hope you meet someone a lot better, who treats you like an equal partner and not like his mother. Bravo! And not only is she providing and the guy is not cleaning or doing anything.. He won't even listen to her. That's what's gotten her more upset. He ignores her and locks himself in the PC room to play. What a deal that guy. I wonder how much he studies really, she said intensive studies for the past two years, I have a feeling that guy didn't even go to class.
Touche Posted August 21, 2009 Posted August 21, 2009 Thanks, TBF and Ariadne. Here's the thing I don't get...TM says there's not another like him, he's brilliant, a genius debater, etc. etc. etc. But to me he sounds like he's a dime a dozen. He may have a genius IQ but he's emotionally retarded. He's not a man. Intelligent and witty men abound. In my experience emotionally mature and balanced men are rare. A man who treats you like an equal and is genuinely interested in pleasing you. Find a man with BOTH (emotional maturity and wit) and THEN and only then, do you have a GEM. So to say that there's not another "like him" is false in my opinion. There are plenty like him. They're all over the place. I was married to a man with an emotional IQ of a doorknob. Read up on emotional IQ, you might recognize him. Here's a place to start: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-emotional-intelligence.htm It's the kind that are hard to find that you should hold out for and hold on to, once you've found him.
Author TaraMaiden Posted August 21, 2009 Author Posted August 21, 2009 Bravo! And not only is she providing and the guy is not cleaning or doing anything.. He won't even listen to her. That's what's gotten her more upset. He ignores her and locks himself in the PC room to play. What a deal that guy. I wonder how much he studies really, she said intensive studies for the past two years, I have a feeling that guy didn't even go to class. He was top student three years running, and in the history of the university, the only student to win both Debating Competitions AND Mooting contests. So much so that for the first time in 15 years, the University was eligible for the International Law University Moot competition, held at Oxford University, in which he participated. The University came 4th, but only because their tutor and coach was unavoidably absent due to severe flu, and the 2 students (one, my partner) had to do their own research and rehearsals. He received a 1st Class Honours with Distinction for his 12k word-dissertation on banking - a subject he never even took. he attended every Guest lecture and ran rings around 2 separate politicians discussing the 'virtues' of apprenticeship enterprise, and Immigration policies, respectively. He coached a lecturer - read that again - HE COACHED a Lecturer on their own specialised subject, because the lecturer had not bothered keeping up to date with unfolding events concerning European Human Rights. Even without sitting 2 of his 4 final exams, he has enough accumulated marks to gain his degree, (he missed them dues to a broken wrist) but that's not sufficient for him. he plans to re-sit his exams and gain a 1st Classs Honours degree, with distinction. And he will. Yes. he went to class. And I am defending him. Too damn right I'm defending him on this point. Sure, I will take and discuss criticisms with regard to legitimate points, but on matters that I haven't even discussed, don't even go there, especially as you know nothing and are purely speculating. I take on board everything everyone is saying about this situation. But let's not launch unwarranted attacks, where none are justified, ok? Thanks.
Author TaraMaiden Posted August 21, 2009 Author Posted August 21, 2009 No one said you should be cruel. But he's not treating YOU like someone he loves and is fond of from the sound of it. He loves me to pieces. he absolutely loves me more than anyone else he has ever loved. Unfortunately - he is not demonstrating that love in a way I need. he's affectionate, warm and 'cuddly' - but it doesn't hit the chord.... He doesn't believe you mean it because your actions don't match up with what you're telling him. No. he doesn't believe I could possibly mean what I say, because he can't believe I could love him - AND leave him. You say you'll never meet his like again...i hope not. I hope you meet someone a lot better, who treats you like an equal partner and not like his mother. Intellectually, he's matchless, in my opinion. But haven't I said, so many times, elsewhere-- that they never get beyond 9? And he's why I say that, time and time again! TM, I agree with Touche. Set those boundaries and hold firm. He's acting like a spoiled child, throwing a tantrum and god forbid, pouting and whining. Pout and whine...no. but sulk? tantrum? oh boy.......! Thanks, TBF and Ariadne. Here's the thing I don't get...TM says there's not another like him, he's brilliant, a genius debater, etc. etc. etc. But to me he sounds like he's a dime a dozen. Nope, really. you'd have to meet him to believe it. he's a real charmer, people are putty in his hands. he's quite unique, truly. This is what makes it so hard for me. He may have a genius IQ but he's emotionally retarded. He's not a man. I wouldn't say retarded. I'd say 'stunted'. His mother died of alcoholism when he was 15. In a drunken stupor, she fell and hit her head, and bled to death. he found her. Part of him still hankers for a normal mother.... Intelligent and witty men abound. In my experience emotionally mature and balanced men are rare. A man who treats you like an equal and is genuinely interested in pleasing you. Find a man with BOTH (emotional maturity and wit) and THEN and only then, do you have a GEM. Yup, good point here..... So to say that there's not another "like him" is false in my opinion. There are plenty like him. They're all over the place. I was married to a man with an emotional IQ of a doorknob. Read up on emotional IQ, you might recognize him. Here's a place to start: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-emotional-intelligence.htm It's the kind that are hard to find that you should hold out for and hold on to, once you've found him. Now that IS interesting.... yet he can be extremely emotional, at times..... I'm going to ponder that one.....
Trialbyfire Posted August 22, 2009 Posted August 22, 2009 When you're in love, everyone wears beer goggles, believing the other person is special. Otherwise, why would you be with them, if they weren't special to you? Having said all that, do his positive traits outweigh the negatives? Is his charm sufficient to pay the bills and put food on the table? Are your needs getting met within this relationship? To use a phrase that Touche loves to use, what's your take-away or was it payback?
Ariadne Posted August 22, 2009 Posted August 22, 2009 TM says there's not another like him, he's brilliant, a genius debater, etc. etc. etc. But to me he sounds like he's a dime a dozen. She is very impressed with his school. I wonder if she is as impressed with his often lovemaking also. He must be waiting for her to get home to jump her (since she is so in love).
Surfer Girl Posted August 22, 2009 Posted August 22, 2009 I can relate to being with one that is highly intelligent and interacts with stimulating conversations and I do not think these type of people are a dime a dozen.... Yet, I can understand the genuis side does not always corolate with the emotional side. As in my case my ex has issues on the emotional side and because he is intelligent he is smart enough to know he has these emotional issues.... also grew up in a horrific childhood setting. I recognize Tara you are not one that will leave someone in a destitute situation that is trying to support themselves... compassion as you will.... if he were just sitting on his a*** then it becomes more of someone enabling... Perhaps setting a time line and creating a boundry so he does understand you really want out of the relationship may be something to ponder. Even if he has to take a job that is not to his liking to make ends meet.... He could look into state help..... How long can you live in the same household with how you feel?? And there are some on this forum it is best to ignore, as some are instigators that do not need to be replyed to.... Take what you need for the ones that want to help
Author TaraMaiden Posted August 22, 2009 Author Posted August 22, 2009 She is very impressed with his school. I wonder if she is as impressed with his often lovemaking also. He must be waiting for her to get home to jump her (since she is so in love). Ariadne, if you have nothing better to say, but to make sarcastic remarks about matters we're not even discussing, just leave the discussion, ok? I gave you more credit than this, and your remarks are both unintelligent and completely unfounded. You're stabbing in the dark, and you do yourself no favours. What's the point?
Author TaraMaiden Posted August 22, 2009 Author Posted August 22, 2009 When you're in love, everyone wears beer goggles, believing the other person is special. Otherwise, why would you be with them, if they weren't special to you? I think I've been wearing them these last 4 years or so. It's weird, taking them off....not sure everything in focus is actually clearer.... Having said all that, do his positive traits outweigh the negatives? Is his charm sufficient to pay the bills and put food on the table? In actual fact, Probably. he gave up an extremely lucrative career, giving him a six-figure sum per annum, to pursue his legal eagle dream. he's competitive and hates to lose - come second, even. But he's disarmingly charming, and extremely articulate. All he has to do now is to find an interim job, until he takes his exams again, gets his degree and begins a late-in-life career as a legal lecturer. Something he can do standing on his head. Are your needs getting met within this relationship? To use a phrase that Touche loves to use, what's your take-away or was it payback? Aaah. Now we're getting to the crunch....My question too... What's the payoff? You have no idea how long I have pondered that question, and meditated upon it, and given it a lot of thought. I'm not going to try to argue this point too elaborately. I have my reasons, I'm not prevaricating or projecting this off onto anything else.... Suffice to say, dearest TbF.... I'm Buddhist. That's played a major part in my role in this. I can relate to being with one that is highly intelligent and interacts with stimulating conversations and I do not think these type of people are a dime a dozen.... Yet, I can understand the genuis side does not always corolate with the emotional side. As in my case my ex has issues on the emotional side and because he is intelligent he is smart enough to know he has these emotional issues.... also grew up in a horrific childhood setting. I recognize Tara you are not one that will leave someone in a destitute situation that is trying to support themselves... compassion as you will.... if he were just sitting on his a*** then it becomes more of someone enabling... Perhaps setting a time line and creating a boundry so he does understand you really want out of the relationship may be something to ponder. Even if he has to take a job that is not to his liking to make ends meet.... He could look into state help..... Thank you Surfer Girl. I think you may understand where I am coming from then, because what you say, in a relatively short post, is as accurate to my situation as anyone can be. he has said that he is looking to do anything that will bring us an income. Whatever it might be. And I know for sure, that whatever it is, he will do it better than needs be, because that's the type of person he is. He might hate it, but he will do it exceeding requirement. How long can you live in the same household with how you feel?? About a year-and-a-bit, though feelings of malaise and dissatisfaction have been around for longer..... And there are some on this forum it is best to ignore, as some are instigators that do not need to be replyed to.... Take what you need for the ones that want to help Oh, I may well occasionally fall into that category. That some on here have done so, surprises me. Uncalled for, and out of character. Still, life is one great big "out of Character" on here, isn't it? Thanks again, Surfer Girl.
sb129 Posted August 22, 2009 Posted August 22, 2009 TM- sorry to hear about this. I am leaning towards agreeing with Touche and TBF, and Surfergirl made some good points too. You CAN get a 10. And IMO, the way your (ex) fiance is treating you drops him down to way less than a 9. Intellect can only take him so far hon- all the intellect in the world doesn't make up for the way he treats you. I don't doubt that he does love you, but unfortunately not all love is healthy or happy. I really hope things work out, although I am inclined to agree that his chances of changing are small.
Author TaraMaiden Posted August 22, 2009 Author Posted August 22, 2009 Oh, I agree. I actually 'cornered' him last night - at 1.20am -!! and told him that he doesn't seem to get it. he told me I picked a fine time - my timing always stinks, apparently. I told him that even by his own admission, he's difficult, hard to live with, not an easy person to deal with and creates a bow-wave, so pinning him down is not always easy. But I left him in much less doubt, last night (this morning!!) that he's really skating on thin ice.... I asked him if he hadn't noticed that I hadn't put my ring back on.... "I was beginning to wonder...." was his reply.... See what I mean about not getting it, or refusing to accept it? So we're due a huge talk tonight. but he warned me that if it was all going to be about plastering the walls with him, and just tearing him to bits, and being pushed into a corner, he wouldn't stand for it.... I told him he needed to fight for it. To face it and do something..... we shall see whether he will. Or won't. Watch this space.
Author TaraMaiden Posted August 22, 2009 Author Posted August 22, 2009 We've actually agreed a time to get together and really thrash this out. he has a long-standing commitment this weekend. I'm working, anyway. Tuesday is my day off. That's showdown. I'll keep you all posted, and thank to all, who made constructive contributions and comments.
wuggle Posted August 23, 2009 Posted August 23, 2009 TM, when Anne told me of this thread I was going to read it and respond with the usual platitides, "bad things happen to good people", " hugs" etc but after getting to know you a little through your posts, realise that that might be insulting. You are one of the most balanced, intelligent and spiritual people on this site and whilst it is a little sad to see you suffering, your moral and intellectual attitude to life, your buddhists beliefs etc do place you in a better position than most to deal with this particular situation. Why does the universe seem to place obstacles in your path specifically designed for you ? if I wasn't a devout athiest I would swear there was a higher purpose to it all From your posts it is obvious you so love this guy and from what you have said I can understand why, he sounds absolutley fascinating, also sounds like an emotional idiot at times, but then, most men are. I once heard a saying, "the only wasted life is one not truly lived" - bit pretentious but I think this might apply to you. The way you jump to this guy's defence, the wonderful things you say about him, amaze me. I would love for someone to say those things about me. So, he's an idiot, he doesn't understand women and was screwed up in his youth by seeing his alchoholic mother die in front of him (sh&t that would screw anyone up). Maybe the universe put a brilliant academic but emotionally stunted person and you, a brilliantly advanced emotionally and spiritual person together for a reason ? My advice stick with it, be stong and teach him where he is messing up, tell him EXACTLY how he needs to change to keep this relatonship going, don't do the immature half measures but be strong, be the adult until he grows up. You don't want to end this relationship, you want it fixed. Have one last try to fix it, make it clear to him that you do love him, but tell him what he needs to do to keep you. Tell him what the woman in you needs from him. Hell, you may end up broke, you may end up confused, but it sure as hell doesn't sound like you will end up like most people do, bored. Good luck for Tuesday, let us know how it goes, all our love Wuggle and Anne.
Author TaraMaiden Posted August 26, 2009 Author Posted August 26, 2009 Wednesday morning: Well that went well.... I'm not going to bore you with the details. He started a no-smoking program yesterday, so it was out with the cigarettes and on with the patches. That was a good start. He hit the roof when I tried to broach the subject. I mean, hit the roof. Yelling at the top of his voice, and stating that if this was just going to be a 'him-shredder' he wasn't going to play that game, and would call time out..... In short, the talk didn't happen. As with all things, he insists on calling the shots and doing things entirely on his terms. He needs Anger management, and has Control issues. However, telling someone who needs Anger Management and control issues that they need Anger Management and Control issue therapy, is not always a good idea. (Not that I actually did this.....I'm not that stupid.....) It's a question of timing. Apparently, mine was out. Again. And bear in mind, he 'made' this appointment. he suggested this date, not me..... The evening was calmer. Or would have been, if a 'situation' with another person hadn't arisen and distracted his mood completely. (It's a long story and completely irrelevant and separate to this, so again, forget the details). It just didn't put him in a very good mood. I considered the timing, and thought better of it. See? I'm learning! Well, today is my second day off..... kind of 'last chance saloon'. He did point out that expecting to be able to discuss everything and resolve it in two days is unrealistic. I agree. But discussing anything would be a start.... Let's see if HE brings anything up, because doubtless, his timing is so much better than mine...... Oh.......Furk.
GorillaTheater Posted September 1, 2009 Posted September 1, 2009 How do things stand, Tara? How are you holding up?
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