shadowplay Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 You know in antiquity crying was actually encouraged in men? It's kind of funny to read descriptions of great warriors breaking down in tears in the Iliad and the Aeneid.
Author dreamergrl Posted August 17, 2009 Author Posted August 17, 2009 Ditto. My mom is more emotional than my father (she comes from a large Italian family). I felt more comfortable expressing my feelings with her. My dad is emotionally distant. I've never seen him cry. Actually, I don't think that's so unusual. I doubt most fathers would cry in front of their kids, and I don't think it would be healthy for them to do so. I know it would have made me feel extremely uncomfortable since I saw him as a figure of strength. But a romantic relationship, in which there's total intimacy, is different. My dad didn't even cry when his dad died. He also told me to stay put with the younger girls (two step and two half sisters) while he and my step mom paid their last respects, and I was not to do so. I was 19. This was something I always pondered about.
Trialbyfire Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 I might have to change my original statement. I think at the beginning of a relationship, it's normal and healthy to see your partner cry in the first year or two. At that point you're revealing deep truths about yourself and forming bonds of trust. Later on, it might become excessive. I don't feel comfortable with somebody who never cries, at least with not me around.I can honestly say that the men I've gotten involved with in LTRs of any kind, never cried annually. Only with traumatic events, like death, breakup etc. It doesn't mean they were all emotionally challenged. They just expressed their emotions in different ways, whether through verbalization or physically. I recall the last time someone hurt me enough to cry, during an argument. It wasn't really crying, more as Isolde mentions, misty-eyed and a stuffed up nose..haha... Crying throught that disagreement would have made for ineffectual communications. Anytime since or before, was for traumatic events, like my Dad and his cancer surgery or after the infidelity incident, from my ex-H, death, etc.
shadowplay Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 I disagree with this completely. If anything, the allowance for occasional displays of emotion should build up over time. Right, but it's unrealistic that somebody would experience a traumatic life event once a year. Crying at the beginning of a relationship usually happens in the retelling of past traumas as you forge emotional bonds. Once those traumas have been rehashed, people rarely feel the need to return to them with their partner since they're painful to relate. It's more about building trust with the other person than re-experiencing the pain. I think crying after that point is fine, but once a year might be a little much for me on second thought.
Star Gazer Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 I disagree with this completely. If anything, the allowance for occasional displays of emotion should build up over time. I agree with this. There's obviously a continuum of sensitivity. I prefer a healthy medium. Not a rock, and not a cry baby.
Trialbyfire Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 My dad didn't even cry when his dad died. He also told me to stay put with the younger girls (two step and two half sisters) while he and my step mom paid their last respects, and I was not to do so. I was 19. This was something I always pondered about.That's sad that he was unable to express his emotions for something this traumatic. To be fair to him, he probably wanted you to be the strong emotional support for your younger siblings, but I could be wrong.
shadowplay Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 My dad didn't even cry when his dad died. He also told me to stay put with the younger girls (two step and two half sisters) while he and my step mom paid their last respects, and I was not to do so. I was 19. This was something I always pondered about. My dad didn't cry when his dad died either, but I think that's because they weren't especially close. My mom says the only time she's seen him cry is when his mother died, when he was in his thirties.
clv0116 Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Sure you did. Well who wouldn't? It was like someone spitting on the Mona Lisa, except worse.
Vet Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 First off where did I say "always?" Where did I say that you did? You intimated absoluteness in your responses, which is what I was getting at. Nope. I've known many people with WASP backgrounds and grew up in a town full of WASP families. It's common knowledge that there's that emotionally cold tendency in their culture. Here's the first paragraph of a NY Times article about movies relating to WASP families: They're cold as ice, they're wound like springs, and they make everyone around them miserable. In the movies, Robert Redford's "Ordinary People" (1980) was the classic indictment of WASP's. The only way Mr. and Mrs. Jarret (Donald Sutherland and Mary Tyler Moore) could think of to cope with the drowning of their oldest son and the attempted suicide of their youngest was through stiff upper lips, good manners and denial. It's not just me... Yeah, I don't know where I got that idea. There are certain cultural norms. Some cultures are more expressive with their emotions than others. Anyone who denies this is simply ignorant. Recognizing that isn't stereotyping as long as you qualify your judgments by allowing for exceptions from the rule. No, that's exactly what stereotyping is, and if you actually believe that, then I'm afraid that you're the one that is simply ignorant.
Isolde Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 I'll be honest and say to me, crying is a way of releasing confusion rather than responding to trauma. I sometimes cry in rather incongruous situations, where something deep inside me becomes "triggered." These spells don't happen often, but probably more than once a year. I think crying is private though and I don't cry while having a conversation. I'm not going to place limits on how much crying I tolerate in friends and family because everyone has his/her own style, and no one I know does it to an extent where it interferes with our relationship. I.e., more than once a year is OK by me, once a week is wayyy too much.
Author dreamergrl Posted August 17, 2009 Author Posted August 17, 2009 That's sad that he was unable to express his emotions for something this traumatic. To be fair to him, he probably wanted you to be the strong emotional support for your younger siblings, but I could be wrong. My younger siblings had very little to do with my grandpa and were there only because of my dad. My step mom always made fun of my grandparents (in a mean and cruel way). I spent many vacations at my grandparents growing up, especially when my dad wanted to go to the bar. I was a threat to my step mom, she hated me, and abused me when I was 9. Oh, and 3 years ago, I found out my grandma died, I found out via the web, and he never bothered to tell me So the relationship with my dad is very strained (really non-existent) at this point, but if gives you an idea of how it was in the earlier years, not to far off.
New Again Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Right, but it's unrealistic that somebody would experience a traumatic life event once a year. Crying at the beginning of a relationship usually happens in the retelling of past traumas as you forge emotional bonds. Once those traumas have been rehashed, people rarely feel the need to return to them with their partner since they're painful to relate. It's more about building trust with the other person than re-experiencing the pain. I think crying after that point is fine, but once a year might be a little much for me on second thought. Again, people express themselves differently. A guy can share things with me and not cry. For example, my grandfather, with whom I was very close, passed away a few years ago (cancer - he was diagnosed and passed away within 6 wks). While he was sick - big happy face when I visited him at the hospital. Big happy face for my mother, who needed the support (NOT someone to cry with). When I cried it was alone or with a close friend, but mostly I didn't cry. At his calling hours and funeral I cried uncontrollably and almost nonstop at both occasions. To this day I occasionally get teary when I think about a particular memory of him, or when I smell something that reminds me of his scent (cologne, Zest soap and fresh cut grass). However, when I share this with a bf, I don't cry. I don't really feel the urge to, and if for some reason I did, I probably would control it and not. I'm still sharing with him, and being emotionally open, but I'm not crying.
shadowplay Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Where did I say that you did? You intimated absoluteness in your responses, which is what I was getting at. Yeah, I don't know where I got that idea. No, that's exactly what stereotyping is, and if you actually believe that, then I'm afraid that you're the one that is simply ignorant. I never framed my statements about WASP families in absolute terms, but you suggested that I did when you said "all black families..." I simply said there's a "tendency" in their culture to suppress emotions. Yes, there are many exceptions I'm sure. The word "tendency" allows for that kind of flexibility. Do you realize that there's a whole respected field of study that examines cultural norms across the globe? That includes what's considered acceptable in different cultures in terms of behavior. Would you accuse scholars in these fields of "stereotyping" as well? What about scholars who examine ancient cultures and draw conclusions about norms from their findings?
Isolde Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 That's sad that he was unable to express his emotions for something this traumatic. To be fair to him, he probably wanted you to be the strong emotional support for your younger siblings, but I could be wrong. Not talking about Dreamergirl's family here but being more general. Why judge someone for not crying in one situation, yet judge them for crying in another? People "use" crying in different ways. Some may respond to trauma with shock and stoicism rather than letting the emotional floodgates open. It's a survival mechanism.
shadowplay Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Again, people express themselves differently. A guy can share things with me and not cry. For example, my grandfather, with whom I was very close, passed away a few years ago (cancer - he was diagnosed and passed away within 6 wks). While he was sick - big happy face when I visited him at the hospital. Big happy face for my mother, who needed the support (NOT someone to cry with). When I cried it was alone or with a close friend, but mostly I didn't cry. At his calling hours and funeral I cried uncontrollably and almost nonstop at both occasions. To this day I occasionally get teary when I think about a particular memory of him, or when I smell something that reminds me of his scent (cologne, Zest soap and fresh cut grass). However, when I share this with a bf, I don't cry. I don't really feel the urge to, and if for some reason I did, I probably would control it and not. I'm still sharing with him, and being emotionally open, but I'm not crying. I can't imagine crying if my grandparents died (I'm not very close to them). I think the death of an immediate family member or close friend would make me really break down in tears.
Vet Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 I never framed my statements about WASP families in absolute terms, but you suggested that I did when you said "all black families..." I simply said there's a "tendency" in their culture to suppress emotions. Yes, there are many exceptions I'm sure. The word "tendency" allows for that kind of flexibility. Do you realize that there's a whole respected field of study that examines cultural norms across the globe? That includes what's considered acceptable in different cultures in terms of behavior. Would you accuse scholars in these fields of "stereotyping" as well? What about scholars who examine ancient cultures and draw conclusions about norms from their findings? If they're using those cultural norms to place prejudicial values on individual people (which is what you were attempting to do), then yes, that is the exact definition of stereotyping.
Trialbyfire Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 My younger siblings had very little to do with my grandpa and were there only because of my dad. My step mom always made fun of my grandparents (in a mean and cruel way). I spent many vacations at my grandparents growing up, especially when my dad wanted to go to the bar. I was a threat to my step mom, she hated me, and abused me when I was 9. Oh, and 3 years ago, I found out my grandma died, I found out via the web, and he never bothered to tell me So the relationship with my dad is very strained (really non-existent) at this point, but if gives you an idea of how it was in the earlier years, not to far off.((hugs)) Not talking about Dreamergirl's family here but being more general. Why judge someone for not crying in one situation, yet judge them for crying in another? People "use" crying in different ways. Some may respond to trauma with shock and stoicism rather than letting the emotional floodgates open. It's a survival mechanism.Good question and one that's related to how you were raised. Each person's foundational upbringing defines what's an appropriate time to cry and when it's not.
shadowplay Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 If they're using those cultural norms to place prejudicial values on individual people (which is what you were attempting to do), then yes, that is the exact definition of stereotyping. How was I attempting to do that? Enlighten me. I simply asked one user if she came from a WASP background. I didn't assume she had. That would be stereotyping. I thought it was a possibility considering what she said about her upbringing and that she looked somewhat Anglo in her avatar.
Isolde Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 I just have one more thing to add. The things I cried most about in my life definitely weren't the most important. It was just pure expression. This is why for me, crying isn't a big deal. I just don't always associate crying with "terrible events happening."
Author dreamergrl Posted August 17, 2009 Author Posted August 17, 2009 Not talking about Dreamergirl's family here but being more general. Why judge someone for not crying in one situation, yet judge them for crying in another? People "use" crying in different ways. Some may respond to trauma with shock and stoicism rather than letting the emotional floodgates open. It's a survival mechanism. I get this, and I've used so many different reactions as a survival mechanism. I am curious though, Isolde, (if I missed the answer to this, I'm sorry for asking again) but how do you feel about men crying? Where do you stop feeling comfortable with a man's sensitive side?
Gemini09 Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Hmm.. I once dated a guy who told me he never cried. He also told me he had no conscious and he was incredibly insensitive as well. He turned out be a total jerk. I was personally never physically abused by him, but from some incidents he brought up from the past, I believe he may have been abusive towards women. He grew up in an abusive environment, and did not have a very good family life. I'm sure this affected him much so. What's odd is he actually loved to watch girly movies. :confused:I'm not saying all men that never cry turn out like this, but I think it could indicate a further issue. I think it's very unhealthy if a man or anyone never cries. It may not be healthy to cry frequently, but if you never cry or rarely do so, I think something is a little unusual.
Isolde Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 I am curious though, Isolde, (if I missed the answer to this, I'm sorry for asking again) but how do you feel about men crying? Where do you stop feeling comfortable with a man's sensitive side? I have almost zero relationship experience, so I can't really answer this fully, dreamer. All I can say is I don't mind occasional crying as long as it's not thrown in my face to get a reaction. If you need rough numbers, twice a year would be fine, twice a month too much.
Trialbyfire Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 This is tied into people "getting" you or not, as a person. Social cues become important, in that if you were raised in a particular environment, it's much easier to relate to someone else who's also been raised in a similar fashion. That's why my current relationship has been so easy. We share so many positive and negative triggers, without having to work hard on trying to understand where the other person's coming from. His family is very similar to mine.
shadowplay Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Hmm.. I once dated a guy who told me he never cried. He also told me he had no conscious and he was incredibly insensitive as well. He turned out be a total jerk. I was personally never physically abused by him, but from some incidents he brought up from the past, I believe he may have been abusive towards women. He grew up in an abusive environment, and did not have a very good family life. I'm sure this affected him much so. What's odd is he actually loved to watch girly movies. :confused:I'm not saying all men that never cry turn out like this, but I think it could indicate a further issue. I think it's very unhealthy if a man or anyone never cries. It may not be healthy to cry frequently, but if you never cry or rarely do so, I think something is a little unusual. People who come from abusive or traumatic childhoods often have trouble expressing or even feeling emotions because they block out all the pain as a coping mechanism.
Author dreamergrl Posted August 17, 2009 Author Posted August 17, 2009 This is tied into people "getting" you or not, as a person. Social cues become important, in that if you were raised in a particular environment, it's much easier to relate to someone else who's also been raised in a similar fashion. That's why my current relationship has been so easy. We share so many positive and negative triggers, without having to work hard on trying to understand where the other person's coming from. His family is very similar to mine. I often wonder if that's how it's really suppose to be, instead of all the 'hard working' relationships.
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