hendersongirl Posted August 20, 2009 Posted August 20, 2009 Like others have touched on, there is a distinction to be made here. "Cheating" (as I understand it) does NOT mean sleeping with another person, but violating somebody's trust. I don't know of any culture where it is ok to violate people you love's trust. This is the most basic bond which makes a society. The cornerstone. Trust and loyalty. Of course there are polygamous societies, of course there are societies in which it is normal to have one loving partner but many lovers on the side. That is not the point. Guilt will naturally (call it biologically if you like, but I don't think ethics are biological and I have good philosophical reasons for this) occur when one has violated the trust of, and hurt, somebody they love. It is unethical, NOT a (merely) societal thing. This guilt is inevitable when we do something we know to be wrong (aside from the amoralist but forget about that for now). Sleeping with somebody else per se is not wrong. You may have an agreement, either explicit (like people in open relationships) or implicit (if that's your society's expectations). It is when you violate your partner's trust that it is wrong, and you subsequently feel guilty. This is why just a kiss, or an inappropriate conversation, even a look! can be considered "cheating" if the disloyalty is there. There is no society in which it is perfectly ok to break promises or violate trust. This is a moral truth, I believe, or a biological truth if that's your thing.
Author Hkizzle Posted August 20, 2009 Author Posted August 20, 2009 Like others have touched on, there is a distinction to be made here. "Cheating" (as I understand it) does NOT mean sleeping with another person, but violating somebody's trust. I don't know of any culture where it is ok to violate people you love's trust. This is the most basic bond which makes a society. The cornerstone. Trust and loyalty. Of course there are polygamous societies, of course there are societies in which it is normal to have one loving partner but many lovers on the side. That is not the point. Guilt will naturally (call it biologically if you like, but I don't think ethics are biological and I have good philosophical reasons for this) occur when one has violated the trust of, and hurt, somebody they love. It is unethical, NOT a (merely) societal thing. This guilt is inevitable when we do something we know to be wrong (aside from the amoralist but forget about that for now). Sleeping with somebody else per se is not wrong. You may have an agreement, either explicit (like people in open relationships) or implicit (if that's your society's expectations). It is when you violate your partner's trust that it is wrong, and you subsequently feel guilty. This is why just a kiss, or an inappropriate conversation, even a look! can be considered "cheating" if the disloyalty is there. There is no society in which it is perfectly ok to break promises or violate trust. This is a moral truth, I believe, or a biological truth if that's your thing. I diagree. I live here in Asia and I see men cheat all the time with ZERO guilt. They go with their buddies and pay for sex, it's like a male social bonding experience, no difference from say the guys in The Hangover, except the men there paid for strippers and not sex. Humans naturally feel guilt but society has to like that to something. If society doesn't teach someone to feel guilty about something, that person won't feel the guilt. For example, a very religious person will feel guilt if they have sex before marriage, whilst normal people might not feel the guilt at all. A normal person will feel guilt if they killed someone, a terrorist doesn't feel it. We need to be taught what to feel guilty over. What makes us feel guilty seems so obviously wrong only because we've been taught it was wrong, if we were brought up in another society that doesn't frown upon it then we would probably not feel the same way.
Javelin Posted August 22, 2009 Posted August 22, 2009 Not all social norms are written into law. I can fart real loud in an elevator, and people will find that repulsive, but I wouldn't go to jail for it. That's a pretty tame analogy vs cheating and since when was cheating considered a social norm? There have been many cases where a victim of cheating has committed suicide because they could not deal with the consequences (on both ends). I'm pretty sure that farting wouldn't cause a person to just say, 'f-it' and end life. I diagree. I live here in Asia and I see men cheat all the time with ZERO guilt. They go with their buddies and pay for sex, it's like a male social bonding experience, no difference from say the guys in The Hangover, except the men there paid for strippers and not sex. You think that scenario only happens in Asia? Come on, man.. The world is huge. Humans naturally feel guilt but society has to like that to something. If society doesn't teach someone to feel guilty about something, that person won't feel the guilt. Finally, you admit it! Guilt IS biological! and I will partially agree, but overall.. It's up to a person thyself to decide what they feel guilty about. For example, a very religious person will feel guilt if they have sex before marriage, whilst normal people might not feel the guilt at all. On the contrary, it depends on which religion. You can't just generalize every person of strong belief into one category. A normal person will feel guilt if they killed someone, a terrorist doesn't feel it. We need to be taught what to feel guilty over. What makes us feel guilty seems so obviously wrong only because we've been taught it was wrong, if we were brought up in another society that doesn't frown upon it then we would probably not feel the same way. Hyperbole and probables. Sorry, but you continue to generalize people that you've never even spoken with. Guilt is natural and because of free will, we will ALWAYS have a choice to determine for ourselves (as individuals) what we feel guilty towards. Having said that, no two people will feel guilty about the same ideals and that's just the way it works. Society tries to force guilt upon us, but as freethinkers, it isn't long before we develop our own unique ideology towards guilt.
Author Hkizzle Posted August 22, 2009 Author Posted August 22, 2009 Wait......... First you say Infidelity aka cheating is a violation of the mutually agreed-upon rules or boundaries of an intimate relationship. It has nothing to do with society, because if it did; then laws would be in place. and now you say....... That's a pretty tame analogy vs cheating and since when was cheating considered a social norm? There have been many cases where a victim of cheating has committed suicide because they could not deal with the consequences (on both ends). I'm pretty sure that farting wouldn't cause a person to just say, 'f-it' and end life. So cheating is NOT a social norm, but a violation of mutually agreed upon rules has nothing to do with society either? Aren't you contradicting yourself here? You think that scenario only happens in Asia? Come on, man.. The world is huge. Exactly, and cheating is in every culture throughout the world and throughoout history. Finally, you admit it! Guilt IS biological! and I will partially agree, but overall.. It's up to a person thyself to decide what they feel guilty about. On the contrary, it depends on which religion. You can't just generalize every person of strong belief into one category. Religion is only one of the things that teaches us values. Atheists still have a concept of right or wrong. Guilt is natural and because of free will, we will ALWAYS have a choice to determine for ourselves (as individuals) what we feel guilty towards. Having said that, no two people will feel guilty about the same ideals and that's just the way it works. Society tries to force guilt upon us, but as freethinkers, it isn't long before we develop our own unique ideology towards guilt. Isn't that what I've been saying? However I wouldn't give too much credit to free thinking, because if humans were so noble, there wouldn't be Nazis or suicide bombers, or the Rape of Nanking, or the burning of witches, or the .............you get the point?
hendersongirl Posted August 23, 2009 Posted August 23, 2009 However I wouldn't give too much credit to free thinking, because if humans were so noble, there wouldn't be Nazis or suicide bombers, or the Rape of Nanking, or the burning of witches, or the .............you get the point? Ok this is slightly off topic, but this sort of statement is very common and bugs me... Most of the people you are mentioning here actually did not make a moral mistake but rather a mistake about certain non-moral facts of the world. The witch-burners are the best example. They believed that these women were evil witched who were casting evil spells on people. If this was true, then surely we would not want such inhuman evil creatures living among us!! It would in fact be noble to kill them. The mistake they made was in thinking that the women were witches, NOT any mistake about whether it is wrong to kill. Given their very flawed knowledge, I would say they acted very nobly. Of course, nobody denies that they committed horrible immoral atrocities. But it was due to a mistaken ontology (witches exist), not an evil heart. Similarly with some Nazis - it was their ideology which led them to not see the people they tortured as within their moral sphere. The people they did consider part of their moral sphere they treated very well. Again, their mistake is in their ontology (people are not equal, some are inherently inferior (perhaps evil) and some (me!) are inherently superior)... And so on with most (not all, but most) of the examples you mentioned.
Javelin Posted August 23, 2009 Posted August 23, 2009 So cheating is NOT a social norm, but a violation of mutually agreed upon rules has nothing to do with society either? Aren't you contradicting yourself here? Basically, cheating is what YOU (the person, freethinker, individual) make of it. You can base your opinion on whatever you want, but ultimately it is up to you, whether or not it is right or wrong. In terms of a relationship: A swinging couple will engage in sex outside their relationship and be perfectly fine with it, while another couple may see that same act as justified cheating. Religion is only one of the things that teaches us values. Atheists still have a concept of right or wrong. Again, you're generalizing my friend. Since when does everyone have the same religion and furthermore, since when did I ever take a faith? Isn't that what I've been saying? Based on your input, I'm not sure where you stand on this topic to be honest. However I wouldn't give too much credit to free thinking, because if humans were so noble, there wouldn't be Nazis or suicide bombers, or the Rape of Nanking, or the burning of witches, or the .............you get the point? I've never said humans were noble.
Author Hkizzle Posted August 23, 2009 Author Posted August 23, 2009 Similarly with some Nazis - it was their ideology which led them to not see the people they tortured as within their moral sphere. The people they did consider part of their moral sphere they treated very well. Again, their mistake is in their ontology (people are not equal, some are inherently inferior (perhaps evil) and some (me!) are inherently superior)... And so on with most (not all, but most) of the examples you mentioned. What you say is exactly true, but it's also the point I'm trying to make to Javelin. Anyone that's studied group psychology and genocide will understand how genocide is possible. The people that commit war crimes and genocide do so by not associating the people they kill as humans, or good humans. They view their victims are non-human, the bad guys, evil, etc. The people that commit crimes can still feel guilt, but what they feel guilt over is determined by society. If I brought a kid up in a society that didn't teach cheating is wrong, that kids can still feel guilt over other things, but doesn't mean he will feel guilt over cheating.
samsungxoxo Posted August 24, 2009 Posted August 24, 2009 Maybe they are wasting too much energy on that. There are many other things to focus than that...... If you did something you liked in that moment than why then regret it, makes no sense....
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