Hkizzle Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 I find it interesting that so many people here post they cheated, and then feel a huge amount of guilt. Some even say they can't help cheating but still feel the guilt. Ok, so many people don't think cheating is biologically driven. Let's leave that arguement. The guilt the people feel, even as they are compelled to cheat. Is that biologically driven, or do they feel it because society says that cheating is bad?
Javelin Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Do they feel it because society says that cheating is bad? Aside from cheating, you feel guilty because your actions have affected someone or something negatively. That's not socially driven, it's human nature.
Author Hkizzle Posted August 17, 2009 Author Posted August 17, 2009 Aside from cheating, you feel guilty because your actions have affected someone or something negatively. That's not socially driven, it's human nature. But only the ability to feel guilt is human nature. What we associate as right and wrong, and feel guilt over is determined by society. For example, if you look at the Nazis, many wouldn't feel any guilt from killing an innocent civilian. We of course would.
Author Hkizzle Posted August 17, 2009 Author Posted August 17, 2009 Does everything need to be biological? No, most behaviors are not. But the initial drive behind many behaviors are. I just bring up these discussions because I find that whilst most people have no problem seeing anything physical like their leg being biological. They have problems identifying behaviors that are preprogrammed, and not just a product of society.
westernxer Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 I just bring up these discussions because I find that whilst most people have no problem seeing anything physical like their leg being biological. They have problems identifying behaviors that are preprogrammed, and not just a product of society. Yeah, but I think you're oversimplifying the matter by resorting to this biological constant, without taking into consideration that there's more to life than simply biology.
Author Hkizzle Posted August 17, 2009 Author Posted August 17, 2009 Yeah, but I think you're oversimplifying the matter by resorting to this biological constant, without taking into consideration that there's more to life than simply biology. No don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that our psychology is a combination of biology and social condition, and that for the most part social conditioning. In fact what I am arguing here is that the guilt from cheating IS from society. The reason I say that is because is societies where the taboo of cheating isn't as bad, a lot of people cheat without feeling bad about it.
AlektraClementine Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 It could also be ego-driven. Someone who cheats is selfish IMO. There's no law commanding that we commit ourselves to one person. If you do, then cheat, I think it's totally selfish and totally avoidable. So, because of that selfishness, you also want to preserve yourself from being hated. To be found out, is most likely to be hated and deemed a "bad" person. The last thing a selfish person wants is the poor opinion of someone, let alone the masses. What they think is guilt they are feeling, may really be something more self motivated, like fear of being exposed and disliked.
westernxer Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 In fact what I am arguing here is that the guilt from cheating IS from society. I actually like the presence of guilt, but I'm not a womanizer, so what would I know? Guilt also stems from stealing, lying, drinking too much, or getting caught downloading porn. LOL
Author Hkizzle Posted August 17, 2009 Author Posted August 17, 2009 The last thing a selfish person wants is the poor opinion of someone, let alone the masses. What they think is guilt they are feeling, may really be something more self motivated, like fear of being exposed and disliked. Exactly, and the internal guilt or negative feeling our body creates is our body's way to control us from getting into negative social consequences. But whilst the ability to feel guilt is biological, exactly what we feel guilt over is determined by society. Again, a nazi won't even feel guilt over killing someone because he was never given that association.
Javelin Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 But only the ability to feel guilt is human nature. What we associate as right and wrong, and feel guilt over is determined by society. For example, if you look at the Nazis, many wouldn't feel any guilt from killing an innocent civilian. We of course would. Your example is flawed, because in your context, Nazis' and humans are two different entities. Not to play devils advocate either, but how do you know what a Nazi soldier felt?
westernxer Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Again, a nazi won't even feel guilt over killing someone because he was never given that association. Of course, because they're evil. LOL
Author Hkizzle Posted August 17, 2009 Author Posted August 17, 2009 Your example is flawed, because in your context, Nazis' and humans are two different entities. Not to play devils advocate either, but how do you know what a Nazi soldier felt? I used nazi because it's an extreme but good example to explain the theory, and to show that different subgroups of people can feel guilt over different things. So lets say a really devout Christan might feel guilt even at watching porn, but I don't. How nazi soldiers felt was well documented. Anyone that's studied group psychology can opt to study how people became so messed up they commit genocide. In fact psychological states of soliders is always well documented by the military of any country to help their fighting efficiency. When they first attacked the Eastern front, there were SS groups who's specific job was for execution. But after shooting people in the head for too long even these SS soliders had Nightmares. The reason being that they can see into the eyes of their victims and were not able to qualify them as "non human beings". Their guilt disappered once the gas chambers were created. But anyway, the point is the guilt someone feels for something has to be taught by an external source and usually at a young age.
Javelin Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 How nazi soldiers felt was well documented. Anyone that's studied group psychology can opt to study how people became so messed up they commit genocide. In fact psychological states of soliders is always well documented by the military of any country to help their fighting efficiency. The Nazi Soldiers were drugged and brain washed to a point where logic and reason wasn't even a factor. They were called, 'Nazi Zombies' for a reason and obviously they would not feel a thing in that state of mind. However, if you want to involve history, take a look into the 'Valkyrie plot.' There you will see soldiers of high rank acting upon guilt and free will. But anyway, the point is the guilt someone feels for something has to be taught by an external source and usually at a young age. You'd still feel guilty without social influence. Guilt is mental, therefor it's fair to say that it is biological. In terms of cheating, people feel guilty because they know that their actions will have a negative impact on someone else.
AlektraClementine Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 I never pay much mind to cheaters who profess a lot of "guilt". If they had the capacity to feel such "emotion" for the person they wronged, they'd likely not have committed the offense in the first place. I think "guilt" is just the word they pick. It works for conversational purposes. Now if we want to get down to semantics (which we humans only resort to during conflict) (unless you're me;)), then of course you feel the textbook definition of "guilt" You're guilty.
Author Hkizzle Posted August 17, 2009 Author Posted August 17, 2009 The Nazi Soldiers were drugged and brain washed to a point where logic and reason isn't even a factor. Obviously they would not feel a thing in that state of mind. However, if you want to involve history, take a look into the 'Valkyrie plot.' There you will see soldiers of high rank acting upon guilt and free will. I've read into the Valkyrie story in detail. First of all Nazi soliders were not drugged, maybe some with stimulants to help them fight. But not to remove the guilt. Second, Valkyrie and the other conspirators were German officers in the German army, that's a different branch to the SS. Thirdly, if you actually studied the REAL story, the main reason for the plot wasn't his disgust at what was going on, but a realization by 1943 that Germany was definitely going to lose the war. They therefore wanted to assassinate Hitler so they can negotiate peace, without Germany being totally ruined. You'd still feel guilty without outside aka social influence. Guilt is mental, therefor it's fair to say that it is biological. This is exactly why I created this thread........... On the other thread about cheating is biological LKJH argues that cheating CANNOT be biological. Here you're arguing that guilt HAS to be biological....... I think most people just have a problem digesting that human beings are naturally brutal, and therefore fight any indications of this.
AlektraClementine Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Hkizzle, would you agree that desire to reproduce (AKA have sex) is biological, and cheating is not?
Author Hkizzle Posted August 17, 2009 Author Posted August 17, 2009 Hkizzle, would you agree that desire to reproduce (AKA have sex) is biological, and cheating is not? Have you noticed a strange trend even just on this forum? I've been here about a month, and in that time there's been about 10 posters that came here, said they cheated, and asked for help. If you read their posts there are similarities: 1) I cheated 2) I don't know why...... 3) I don't want to cheat........ 4) I feel bad about what I've done. Don't you think this seems really strange? It's like they've done something they knew was wrong, feel really bad about, and yet they did it. Have you ever robbed a bank by accident and then regretted later? I doubt it......... Cheating and how it's right or wrong isn't something we naturally know, it's taught to us. It's a social concept, and I know it's a social concept because if you live in a society where it's not seen as taboo in the same way like I have, then people don't view it with the same level of guilt. (I live in Asia right now) Anyway, if cheating is not biological then it's taught and learnt from society. But which society encourages cheating? Yet EVERY society has cheating. Most of the bad things human beings do in the face of pressures NOT to do them are biologically preprogrammed. From hunger that causes people to eat too much and get fat, greed that drives people to commit crimes, and lust that drive people to cheat even if they feel bad about it. Many people can't accept this concept not because of they have formed logic around the subject, but because they've been TAUGHT cheating is wrong, and therefore have a huge issue getting their head around that it's biological because then: 1) It can be used as an excuse. 2) It means, holycrap, I have those genes in myself too! People from cultures that don't view cheating as taboo have little or no problems accepting that cheating is biological. I know because I've been in discussion. However here where most of the posters are Americans they have huge issues with it being biological.......See how the negativity around cheating is social, whilst the drive to do it isn't?
AlektraClementine Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 But the definition of cheating, isn't "having sex with multiple partners". Perhaps that's what you mean? I'm just having a hard time in your threads understanding how you see "cheating" as biological. I'm semantical that way. Yes, it's a word. Yeah, there are gonna be lots of threads about that topic here. With the same rhetoric. Especially in this forum. I'm also a romantic and because of that, I tend to be very quick to question polls and the demographics in which they are conducted. I don't entirely discredit your theories and have myself often questioned the practicality of monogamy when cross-referenced with biology. I've chosen monogamy. It's more terrifying than most would admit. But at the end of the day, the little bit of extra sex with different people isn't as cool as spending the day with someone who makes me laugh with my gut, and who knows me and all of my weirdness and still thinks I'm swell. Biology can suck it!
Author Hkizzle Posted August 17, 2009 Author Posted August 17, 2009 the offense in the first place. Btw, I'm just having interesting debates in all of this. At no point am I advocating cheating. A lot of posters don't get that for some reason. Ok, with regard to semantics, you say cheating is an offense......... Why is it an offense? Why is it wrong? Someone teach you it's wrong or you feel it inside? If it's inspired from without (biological) then how come so many people don't feel it in places where the moral issue of cheating is less enforced?
AlektraClementine Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Btw, I'm just having interesting debates in all of this. At no point am I advocating cheating. A lot of posters don't get that for some reason. Ok, with regard to semantics, you say cheating is an offense......... Why is it an offense? Why is it wrong? Someone teach you it's wrong or you feel it inside? If it's inspired from without (biological) then how come so many people don't feel it in places where the moral issue of cheating is less enforced? Well, it's an offense because it involves breaking a promise you made to someone. Is that not considered wrong in most cultures? In what cultures is lying and breaking promises okay? btw- I don't think you're an advocate. I think you're posing interesting topics for debate. I wouldn't reply to most if I didn't think so.
AlektraClementine Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 And just for my reference, would you mind citing some references? Cultures that are ambivalent towards cheating? Not multiple wives or multiple sex partners, but cheating. Serious request.
Author Hkizzle Posted August 17, 2009 Author Posted August 17, 2009 Ok, I live in Hong Kong. In many Asian countries, China, Japan, Hong Kong and a few others, there's an offical stance and an unofficial one. You'll understand it more if you lived here. The official stance is that cheating is wrong. People will also frown on prostitution, porn, etc. Below the surface a huge percentage of men pay for sex, I would say over 50%. There's a hypocritcal subculture. Many women also know their husbands cheat but pretend they don't know and don't want to rock the marriage. There's more of a contract feel to it all. As long as the man is financially competent and brings home the pay check he's not challenged. It's just a very backward and different society. You might think it's wrong, strange or have trouble understanding how women put up with that. But that's because you've been brought up in a different society. But back to the original subject. If I post Cheating is biological on a Hong Kong forum, with the same background explaination, scientific or what not behind it. People have no problems accepting........ See it's the other way around. Seeing cheating as wrong is socially driven.......
Javelin Posted August 20, 2009 Posted August 20, 2009 Seeing cheating as wrong is socially driven....... You are wrong Hkizzle, in terms of America... Infidelity aka cheating is a violation of the mutually agreed-upon rules or boundaries of an intimate relationship. It has nothing to do with society, because if it did; then laws would be in place. Therefor it has everything to do with the committed partners. For example: An open relationship or marriage (aka swinging) is not technically cheating because both parties have agreed to it and there are no laws that govern a couple's decision.
Author Hkizzle Posted August 20, 2009 Author Posted August 20, 2009 You are wrong Hkizzle, in terms of America... Infidelity aka cheating is a violation of the mutually agreed-upon rules or boundaries of an intimate relationship. It has nothing to do with society, because if it did; then laws would be in place. Therefor it has everything to do with the committed partners. For example: An open relationship or marriage (aka swinging) is not technically cheating because both parties have agreed to it and there are no laws that govern a couple's decision. Not all social norms are written into law. I can fart real loud in an elevator, and people will find that repulsive, but I wouldn't go to jail for it. Whilst open relationships are not frowned up except by the ultra religious. Cheating is frown upon by the vast majority of people, just look at this forum and how people see it. Cheating in a marriage is against the law though. There are laws to protect married partners from a cheating partner, and is legal grounds for divorce.
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