bhweller Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 The OP wanted to know if this was weird, thats all. And no, its not really that weird at all. If you don't want to do it, then just tell your boyfriend that. It doesn't have to be a big crisis, its just a fantasy.
sxyNYCcpl Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 Interesting. What I want to know is, are divorce rates higher in the "lifestyle" community? Jeff, they actually are much lower than the general population. I am personally aware of only one couple who has divorced and for reasons that had nothing whatsoever to do with swinging.
Paragon Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 Perhaps you should keep your advice to subjects about which you have some knowledge and experience, because your statement here is just plain wrong. First, the lifestyle is not "passing a woman around from guy to guy", it's about a relationship of equals sharing an enjoyable experience. Secondly, who made you judge and arbiter of who's love is true and who's is not? You are projecting your values onto people who don't share them. As I told the original poster, if it ain't her thing, that's fine, and if it ain't YOUR thing, that's equally fine, but your statement is inflammatory, insulting, and at the risk of being repetitive, wrong. sxyNYCcpl, Gamine is one of those people who thinks he knows everything because of how he was raised to believe certain things or wrong or right. He wants to act like a guru on an abstract topic such as love when he really has no idea what he's talking about. I couldn't have summarized a better response than your post above
Guitarjeff Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 But is there human nature? I'm not ready to make an opinion on this. Isn't exclusive intimacy part of human love? I see people saying sex is just sex, but I have always considered exclusive sexual intimacy as a big part of what human love and respect is? If sex is just sex and exclusive intimacy is not a part of human love, then why do the swinging couples have rules with each other like, *we only do it with each other in the same room, only when together never just somewhere by yourself*? Since sex is simply non-emotional, why the rules then as if to say they can be hurt or jealous if they don't do it the agreed way? Are you sure sex can really be interpreted any way by anyone, and that no matter how it's interpreted it can never be unhealthy in an emotional way? If I ask a hundred drug addicts if the drug lifestyle is a healthy lifestyale, probably most might say yes, does that make it so? Does that make it, *right for them*? The question I am asking is, if exclusive sexual intimacy is NOT an innate part of human nature, then doesn't that diminish that for all humans, even those who practice it? Statistics on marriage don't seem to make a difference when I think about it. Two people who are drug addicts could stay married because it's easier to get drugs for them while they are married, so would that mean they are in a happy marriage and that marriage is in tune with human nature? Because two people stay together doesn't mean they are doing it in the realm of human nature--ie, for the same reason being in love makes people stay married. So, aren't swingers making a statement that effects all human beings by saying exclusive sexual intimacy IS NOT a part of human nature, but it only exists in the mind of individuals who were raised that way? Aren't you saying that the couples who practice exclusive sexual intimacy are only doing it because it's in their minds only, and it's not because it's a healthy, innate, integral part of the human condition known as love? That seems like a huge statement for all of humanity, not just swingers. Another point, how can I believe when swingers tell me it hasn't been unhealthy for their marraige? Since this act cannot be undone once it's been done, wouldn't those who have crossed that line have a tendency to say it didn't hurt their marriage in an emotional way, since saying anything else would be the same as admitting that they have hurt their love and respect for each other and that it can never be undone? Really, the main debating point for me is, Swingers are saying this simple statement: Exclusive sexual intimacy IS NOT A PART of innate human nature and love, and if most people practice it then it only exists in their own minds, and they are not practicing something that is an integral part of human relationships. Why do Male animals fight for exclusive rights to a female? That's another question. any connection? It's an interesting subject that's for sure, and I wish I could pick the brain of a few professionals about it. Is any part of love innate to all humans? It seems the answer to me is yes. When we fall in love, is it not a common symptom to feel butterflies, and you can't eat and such? Wow, sorry for rambling on so much.
bhweller Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 "I'm not ready to make an opinion on this. Isn't exclusive intimacy part of human love?" No.
Guitarjeff Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 "I'm not ready to make an opinion on this. Isn't exclusive intimacy part of human love?" No. But I don't recall my parents ever verbally teaching me to be jealous, and I am a single father and I have enevr discussed exclusive intimacy with my kids, so they will have just as much a chance to feel in support of sharing their spouse sexually as they would of wanting exclusivity? Why do I not buy that? Do you have points to support your claim?
bhweller Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 "Do you have points to support your claim?" I have a lot better than that, I have my own personal real life experience.
Guitarjeff Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 "Do you have points to support your claim?" I have a lot better than that, I have my own personal real life experience. So do drug addicts, so do criminals.... I saw a show called Gangsters lastnight, and the guy was named Midget. While he was dealing drugs, he was rich beyond belief, and while he was rich, he was saying he saw nothing wrong with it at all.
bhweller Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 sorry, swingers are not in the same category as drug addicts and criminals, you need to get a grip.
Guitarjeff Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 sorry, swingers are not in the same category as drug addicts and criminals, you need to get a grip. I am trying to debate certain concepts. You made a claim that exclusive, sexual intimacy IS NOT a part of innate human nature, which has a meaning to ALL human beings. Either you can support your claim or you can't. Saying you *FEEL* it's not because of how you *FEEL* isn't saying much. You may not personally have ever been in a real love relationship. You may not have a reference in your personal life as to what happiness or love even is. Personal feelings are meaningless in concern to innate human nature. You may be abnormal, so your personal feelings have no bearing on what is innately right or wrong.
bhweller Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 "You made a claim that exclusive, sexual intimacy IS NOT a part of innate human nature" HELLO MCFLY, ITS NOT A CLAIM, its empirical reality. Long term monogamy is not only unnatural, it is also exceedingly rare.
Guitarjeff Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 "You made a claim that exclusive, sexual intimacy IS NOT a part of innate human nature" HELLO MCFLY, ITS NOT A CLAIM, its empirical reality. Long term monogamy is not only unnatural, it is also exceedingly rare. Wow, Mcfly? Sounds like you are angered, which is a clear indication you have a problem about this, maybe feeling bad about yourself for ending your ability to have an exclusive sexual relationship with your spouse forever? You see, humans have a tendency to make the best of what situation they are in. So of course you'll say there's nothing wrong with it, because that's all you are left with, forever, with your particular spouse, you can never undo the deed, so just say you wouldn't if you could, makes ya feel better, huh?. You now have continued to skate the question several times. Do you have any studies you can point to (and not from folks who have ended their ability to have an exclusive sexual relationship to their spouse)? It's OBVIOUS that the VAST MAJORITY of relationships in marriage are exclusive, to say anything else is rediculous. I have tried several times to have an intelligent conversation with you. Your anger clearly shows you have a sore spot about your actions, as if you had convinced yourself of certain things and you are uncomfortable when someone takes you into areas you want to avoid going in to. How can I accept anything you say when you really only have one of two responses, A. I should not have done what I did because i lost something meaningful with my spouse that I can never have back, ever, for all time, or B, Hey, it's great and the sex thrills were worth giving up being intimately exclusive with my one spouse for all time. I would think human nature would tell you to say you don't care about what you NOW CAN'T HAVE FOREVeR instead of admitting you have hurt your marriage in a real way. So, let's hear about what rules you and your spouse have, and why you have tyhem, since sex means nothing and is just a physical thrill and has no integral meaning to love and respect. Can you wife find her a couple guy in the grocery store and give them blow jobs in the parking lot without you there? If not, why not?, since it's just sex and there would never be no jealousy and no reason for you to be hurt in any way, since it's not betrayal and has no meaning that's special toward your wife where you are concerned?
Jersey Shortie Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 But is there human nature? I'm not ready to make an opinion on this. Isn't exclusive intimacy part of human love? I see people saying sex is just sex, but I have always considered exclusive sexual intimacy as a big part of what human love and respect is? I agree. While I do think sex is part of human nature, so is intimacy, partnership and a bond between two people only.
Guitarjeff Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 I agree. While I do think sex is part of human nature, so is intimacy, partnership and a bond between two people only. Agreed. I have been thinking on this and I am trying to ask reasonable questions in an unbiased way. In the end, I can't escape certain basics. No matter how you dress it up, what words you want to put to it, one or both spouses are saying that they are not satisfied with being intimately exclusive with their spouse only. I keep arriving at this core, no matter how it's dressed up. I also think the feelings of exclusivity are part of natural human development, respect, and love. It's something special that you hold with that person that I do not believe to be only taught from parents to children. I was never taught it, nor have I taught this to my kids, yet I would bet that they will want sexual exclusivity with their spouse. Now, as a man, I know that they can sometimes desire sex that is not conducive to respect and caring in a marriage type way, but then call it that, don't try to tell everyone else that exclusive intimacy is nothing natural but only taught to you by your parents and that you wouldn't naturally want that if it hadn't have been. We won't tell you not to have a marriage like that, but don't tell us your sexual thrills are all equally conducive to love, respect, and happiness. If you are going to be a perv, then be strong enough to admit it, don't try to redefine everyone else's nature to try and define yourself as being normal.
sxyNYCcpl Posted September 20, 2009 Posted September 20, 2009 Isn't exclusive intimacy part of human love? An intimate relationship (usually) includes sex, but a sexual one does not necessarily include intimacy. You see, sometimes sex is "making love" and sometimes it's just f**king, even if the both look the same to a casual observer. I see people saying sex is just sex, but I have always considered exclusive sexual intimacy as a big part of what human love and respect is? Excellent. If that is how you wish to live your life, I encourage you to do so. If sex is just sex and exclusive intimacy is not a part of human love, then why do the swinging couples have rules with each other like, *we only do it with each other in the same room, only when together never just somewhere by yourself*? Since sex is simply non-emotional, why the rules then as if to say they can be hurt or jealous if they don't do it the agreed way? SOME sex is non-emotional. Other sex isn't. Swingers have 'rules' because it's a group activity, intended to be participated in as a team for the benefit and enjoyment of both members. And not all swingers have rules. If I ask a hundred drug addicts if the drug lifestyle is a healthy lifestyale, probably most might say yes, does that make it so? Does that make it, *right for them*? Many (most?) drugs have quantifiable, measurable harmful effects on the user. Casual sex, if steps are taken (and work) to prevent the spread of disease and unwanted pregnancies, does not. The question I am asking is, if exclusive sexual intimacy is NOT an innate part of human nature, then doesn't that diminish that for all humans, even those who practice it? So you are suggesting that the fact that my wife and I practice consensual non-monogamy in our relationship somehow diminishes your relationship that is (presumptively) monogamous by choice? How? So, aren't swingers making a statement that effects all human beings by saying exclusive sexual intimacy IS NOT a part of human nature, but it only exists in the mind of individuals who were raised that way? I believe that is pretty close to the truth. That doesn't mean you should change your beliefs, however, I'm a live and let live kind of guy. Another point, how can I believe when swingers tell me it hasn't been unhealthy for their marraige? Since this act cannot be undone once it's been done, wouldn't those who have crossed that line have a tendency to say it didn't hurt their marriage in an emotional way, since saying anything else would be the same as admitting that they have hurt their love and respect for each other and that it can never be undone? Isn't that a bit like accusing me of being in denial when I say I'm not a drug addict, despite there being absolutely no evidence that I am one?
sxyNYCcpl Posted September 20, 2009 Posted September 20, 2009 But I don't recall my parents ever verbally teaching me to be jealous, and I am a single father and I have enevr discussed exclusive intimacy with my kids, so they will have just as much a chance to feel in support of sharing their spouse sexually as they would of wanting exclusivity? Why do I not buy that? Do you have points to support your claim? You parents may not have said "You should be jealous of your lover's outside sexual activities", but that's the message they and all of society gave you since you were old enough to understand language. That sex is "reserved for marriage" that it's a special, spiritual bond appropriate only for the most exclusive of relationships. That certain sexual behaviors are bad, are immoral, are sleazy and slutty. And what's worse, the lessons generally are that some things are OK for men but verboten for women. So, yeah, you've been taught to be jealous. Jealousy has it's place. At it's core, it's about fearing losing your relationship, and for many people non-exclusive sexuality does in fact imply that the relationship is in danger. Not everyone feels that way, however. In fact, as soon as I finish reading this thread the Mrs. and I are off to a whizbang swing party in the city, and no matter what happens, I guarantee you we'll wake up next to each other in the morning.
sxyNYCcpl Posted September 20, 2009 Posted September 20, 2009 Do you have any studies you can point to (and not from folks who have ended their ability to have an exclusive sexual relationship to their spouse)? http://www.ejhs.org/volume3/swing/body.htm Enjoy. It's OBVIOUS that the VAST MAJORITY of relationships in marriage are exclusive, to say anything else is rediculous. Your statement is factually correct, most marriages and long term intimate relationships are indeed monogamous. It's also true that the VAST MAJORITY of people do not skydive, that does not mean those who do are lying when they say they enjoy it just to save face from having made the foolish decision to jump out of a perfectly good airplane. Can you wife find her a couple guy in the grocery store and give them blow jobs in the parking lot without you there? I have no philosophical objection to that, but you don't seem to grasp that we do it together, for us as a team. We enjoy the thrill, we enjoy the environment, we enjoy the company, and yes, we enjoy the sex. We also enjoy each others pleasure garnered from whatever source.
Guitarjeff Posted September 20, 2009 Posted September 20, 2009 An intimate relationship (usually) includes sex, but a sexual one does not necessarily include intimacy. You see, sometimes sex is "making love" and sometimes it's just f**king, even if the both look the same to a casual observer. -------------------------------------------------------------------- And I believe this supports my position, not yours. You are right, porno sex is not the same as in-love sex, and that's just the point. in other words, porno sex is not conducive to respect and sexual intimacy, which means it's harmful to that type of relationship that humans normally engage in, yet you claim it is as natural, and I claim that point shows it isn't natural to a human nature that calls for intimate, exclusive sexuality. You claim you love and respect your wife, and I claim you couldn't possibly respect her because you care more about the sexual thrill than you do exclusive, intimate sex that is natural to humans. You see, of course perverted sexual fantasies exist, and it's normal for certain people, but you are saying that because it's normal nature for certain beings that that equates to it being healthy for marriage and a part of what human intimate relationships consist of. You say on one hand, I love and respect my wife, yet I want her to engage in porno sex just for sex, and I am willing to give up an exclusive, intimate relationship with her, and the sex thrill is worth giving that up. Excellent. If that is how you wish to live your life, I encourage you to do so. ------------------------------------------------------------ Not what I choose, we are talking about exclusive intimate relations and whether that's natural human behavior and conducive to real love, is it a part of love. I don't believe for a second that it is only learned, not for a second. It's instinct, part of the human condition. SOME sex is non-emotional. Other sex isn't. Swingers have 'rules' because it's a group activity, intended to be participated in as a team for the benefit and enjoyment of both members. And not all swingers have rules. ------------------------------------------------------------ Intended to be as a team? Who says? So your wife couldn't get off in the parking lot with the two guys, because her team mate is not there? Please explain. "Not all swingers have rules"?, no swingers should have rules, since sex DOESN'T matter and is only sex, there's no natural human emotions involved, right? So you are suggesting that the fact that my wife and I practice consensual non-monogamy in our relationship somehow diminishes your relationship that is (presumptively) monogamous by choice? How? ------------------------------------------------------------- Diminish? not really, but it does redefine it. Your statement is that it is not an instinct and part of human nature to feel an exclusive intimate connection with your spouse, and that it is only in people's upbringing. Sorry, but I just don't think this is correct. You are telling all people that they aren't really feeling this in a natural way, as part of human nature, but as a learned belief, and that does diminish in some way. It doesn't dimish my feeling for my wife, but insults me from your belief standpoint Who are you to call your perversions normal? I believe that is pretty close to the truth. That doesn't mean you should change your beliefs, however, I'm a live and let live kind of guy. ------------------------------------------------------ But you have still made an assumption about all humans by saying they are not really having a natural reaction of love and respect when they want an exclusive intimate relationship with their wife, yet your a live and let live guy, hmm.
Guitarjeff Posted September 20, 2009 Posted September 20, 2009 You parents may not have said "You should be jealous of your lover's outside sexual activities", but that's the message they and all of society gave you since you were old enough to understand language. That sex is "reserved for marriage" that it's a special, spiritual bond appropriate only for the most exclusive of relationships. Come on, that's a stretch. For starters, porno sex to a teen looking for his first lay is normal, but that doesn't mean it's conducive to respect and love and a happy marriage. Love as a relationship bond isn't the same as porno sex, and you have admitted this. When a male Lion fights for a mate, is it natural for him to do so? The feeling of jealousy is part of nature and this is obvious, and it's a part of that which drives the male to pass on his genes, it has a purpose. feelings of love are evolutionary components that have a purpose, and exclusivity is a natural part of that. That certain sexual behaviors are bad, are immoral, are sleazy and slutty. And what's worse, the lessons generally are that some things are OK for men but verboten for women. ---------------------------------------------------------- Porno sex for a teen or a horny man is not abnormal, but it's also not conducive to human intimacy and love in marriage. The whole point of porno sex is to engage with someone that means nothing, that is a sexual object. When you desire your wife to engage in this, you have diminished a natural part of what love is. You have replaced a natural part of love (exclusive intimacy) with cheap porno sex. Jealousy has it's place. At it's core, it's about fearing losing your relationship, and for many people non-exclusive sexuality does in fact imply that the relationship is in danger. Not everyone feels that way, however. ---------------------------------------------------------- At it's core it a part of nature with a purpose. Feeling something is healthy and normal doesn't make it so. If it has a purpose in love, then to replace it with porno sex might cause harm and leave the marriage hurt. In fact, as soon as I finish reading this thread the Mrs. and I are off to a whizbang swing party in the city, and no matter what happens, I guarantee you we'll wake up next to each other in the morning ------------------------------------------------------------ Men wake up next to hookers all the time, that means nothing. When you wake up, roll over and tell your wife that you aren't happy with being in an exclusive, intimate relationship with her and that you see no value in having that with her. Again, perve all you want, but don't try to tell the world it's normal, healthy, respectful love, cause it's clear you think porno sex it worth getting rid of your exclusive, intimate relationship with your wife forever. But now that you have done this, even once, you can never have that again with your wife, so you might as well just make the best of it and claim you lost nothing of value, eh?
C-i-C-u Posted September 20, 2009 Posted September 20, 2009 Wait, if it sex just not vaginal sex, will that mean that you will give oral and anal? If so, I would be interested.....jk. Obviously leave your bf because he doesn't know the differences of the holes, and if he don't know then he can't please you in the ways you should be.
sxyNYCcpl Posted September 20, 2009 Posted September 20, 2009 You are right, porno sex is not the same as in-love sex, and that's just the point. in other words, porno sex is not conducive to respect and sexual intimacy, which means it's harmful to that type of relationship that humans normally engage in, yet you claim it is as natural, and I claim that point shows it isn't natural to a human nature that calls for intimate, exclusive sexuality. Who is talking about porno sex? I thought we were talking about couples who purposely live a non-monogamous lifestyle. Those are two different things. Regardless, your claim that it's not conducive to respect and intimacy is directly contradicted by my experience as we've formed a good number of very close friendships with folks we've met in the lifestyle, and we certainly respect them! You claim you love and respect your wife, and I claim you couldn't possibly respect her because you care more about the sexual thrill than you do exclusive, intimate sex that is natural to humans. Your opinion about whether or not I respect my wife is completely moot, you don't even know me. You are simply projecting your values onto other people and declaring any who live differently than you do to be wrong. Sorry, Jeff, you ain't that important. You say on one hand, I love and respect my wife, yet I want her to engage in porno sex just for sex, and I am willing to give up an exclusive, intimate relationship with her, and the sex thrill is worth giving that up. You say that as though you think I'm "imposing" something on my wife that she does not actually want. We HAVE an exclusive relationship, emotionally, but neither of us desire to have an exclusive physical one. We're not "giving up" anything. I don't believe for a second that it is only learned, not for a second. It's instinct, part of the human condition. You are basing your statement on what facts? The fact that 90% of adults get married, once, and remain faithful to their spouse until death? Oops, that's not really the case is it? Intended to be as a team? Who says? We say. It is our life, no? So your wife couldn't get off in the parking lot with the two guys, because her team mate is not there? Please explain. What's to explain, that's just not how we roll. Diminish? not really, but it does redefine it. Codswallop. Your relationship cannot possibly be changed by our sexual practices, assuming you are neither forced to participate nor observe. It doesn't dimish my feeling for my wife, but insults me from your belief standpoint Who are you to call your perversions normal? My, we've come a long way from "I'm not really sure how I feel about this" a few posts back to labeling our activities as perversions. The question is not who are we to say we're normal, the question is who are you to say otherwise? Rest assured, you know quite a few swingers who you consider quite normal, they simply have not shared their sexual habits with you. But you have still made an assumption about all humans by saying they are not really having a natural reaction of love and respect when they want an exclusive intimate relationship with their wife, yet your a live and let live guy, hmm. I'm not saying you are wrong, despite the fact that seems to be your message to me. Just because long term monogamy, and the presumption that it's "standard" behavior is learned doesn't make it a bad choice. But many, perhaps even most, do not choose. They just accept what they've been told and never give it a second thought. The whole point of porno sex is to engage with someone that means nothing, that is a sexual object. When you desire your wife to engage in this, you have diminished a natural part of what love is. Sex is not love is not sex. It seems you think they are the same thing, they're not. And again, I cannot emphasize enough that it's not something that us swinger men are imposing on our wives. They are willing participants. If it has a purpose in love, then to replace it with porno sex might cause harm and leave the marriage hurt. That doesn't happen though, at least for the overwhelming majority of swingers. Swingers have happier relationships, lower divorce rates, higher quality of life, and find their relationships improve after starting to swing according to every single study I've ever read on the topic. Did you read the one I posted earlier? Or did you just dismiss it because it doesn't conform to your preconceptions? Do you have any actual points, other than your own opinion on how other people should live, to backup your position? Again, perve all you want, but don't try to tell the world it's normal, healthy, respectful love, cause it's clear you think porno sex it worth getting rid of your exclusive, intimate relationship with your wife forever. We see no value in having an exclusive physical relationship. We do not want one, so yes, to us nothing has been lost. If that is what you want, more power to you, but I think you should perhaps back off a bit on the judgmentalism. Not only have we not given anything up, it's actually quite the opposite. To force ourselves to live inside the "monogamy" box that you seem to think we should, now THAT would be a sacrifice.
Guitarjeff Posted September 20, 2009 Posted September 20, 2009 Thinking about this further, the original poster asked for advice, and that's how we should be approaching this. We should give a thoughtful response to her about our own opinions, not be having heated debates with each other. My heart-felt advice to her is. Look inside your heart. Do you love this person in a mature way? Do you see any value at all in having an exclusive, intimate relationship with him? If you can look him in the eye and say, "I see and feel there would be no value in sharing an exclusive sexual intimacy with you, and if he can look in to your eyes and say the same, then in my personal opinion this would not be marriage, adult type love involving two, well adjusted persons. Now, in my personal opinion, there are two kinds of sex, there is the immature, teenage porno sex where the teen dreams of having his teacher on all fours up on her desk after school smacking her behind and seeing her as a sexual object, and then there is mature sexual desire between two adults and I believe that exclusive intimacy is a natural, healthy and integral part of that love, a type of instinct. I personally do not believe that the immature porno teen sex is the equivalent of the mature, well adjusted feelings of love, respect, and sexual attraction that is bound up with real love. I believe people who engage in swinging are simply expressing immature porno sex because they have been exposed to this type of porno and their wires are crossed and they have not progressed through the degrading, immature, teen oriented sex phase and they want to act these sex fantasies out. These fantasies taken into adulthood are then seen as the equivalent of healthy, well adjusted sexual desires. You saw the response here, it was called "Just F$ckin" You know, like a teen having his teacher up on the desk and using her as a sex object. The difference to me is, some think that this sex is the same as loving, mutually respectful, exclusive intimacy between two well adjusted adults, and that's where we differ. The swingers have made it clear, to them, there is no innate value to sharing an exclusive intimate relationship with the love of their lives. So simply have your boyfriend read this thread, look him in the eye and ask him if he sees any value in sharing exclusive intimacy with you, and then ask yourself how his answer makes you feel. How would you feel if he would want to give up that exclusive intimate relationship with you in order to see you on all fours watching another man pound you like the teacher on the desk in the teen fantasy world, using you as a sex object. If I were personally in love with you, then I would absolutely cherish having an exclusive sexual relationship with you. I would feel I was loving you in a well-adjusted, adult way, and that exclusivity would be a valued and major part of the depth of my love for you, for you would be that special to me. I would want to spend my life making you happy and would never desire to see you as a sex object and to watch you being used by other men for that purpose. There's an old saying, "when I was a child, I acted in childish ways, but when I became a man, I put away childish things". To me, the porno teen sex is natural alright, but it's natural to teenagers, single men who love no women and see women as sexual objects, and these men for some reason do not mature out of this phase for various reasons, porno addiction, bad parenting, whatever, and they take this immaturity in to what should be caring, respectful, adult love and try to rationalize it by saying it's the equivalent and has no less value than exclusive intimacy between two adults in love in the context of life-long love and marriage. To me the difference is absolutely clear without a doubt. Remember, once the deed is done, it's done forever. You can't go back later and realize you did value that exclusive intimacy and that it was a special bond between you and your love, because once that foot is accross the line, you can never pull it back. That exclusive intimacy and the bond from it are gone forever with that individual, for all time. You can never say, "my love and I have only been with each other since we met and fell in love" That's an impossibility after the deed is done. Even if you do realize you have lost something valuable, since you know you can never have it back with your love, you will probably just say you lost nothing of value even if you know it's not true. No one wants to admit to themselves that they have destroyed something meaningful to them for all time, so you may just convince yourself you have lost nothing even though in your heart you might know different. So, in the end, have your boyfriend simply read this thread, the fact that you came here and asked about it means you are being thoughtful and not doing anything that can't be taken back before you give it some serious thought. Your boyfriend should be proud of you for this. He'll get a better perspective on the question too and it will make him ponder it well before engaging in it. If you truly love him, and you think he may be your life-long love, then simply ask these questions of yourself and see if you too would value exclusive intimacy as I believe most well-adjusted human beings do. Ask yourself how you feel if your boyfriend looks you in the eye and says, "I see no value to having an exclusive intimate relationship with you, and would prefer to get my rocks off watching you get used as a sex object by other men like I used to dream of pounding my teacher on her desk when I was 14, this is how I want to see you and have you be in reality to me" That's my advice and opinion, and others have given theirs as well, take it all to heart and do what you really feel is right in your soul. Just look in to your heart and soul and you'll know what's right because it will feel right inside to you, go where that inner truth and feeling take you. Hope this helps.
bhweller Posted September 20, 2009 Posted September 20, 2009 some peoples skulls are really thick and probably still believe in santa clause. don't waste time educating people who don't want to be educated, ignore the trolls.
sxyNYCcpl Posted September 20, 2009 Posted September 20, 2009 Thinking about this further, the original poster asked for advice, and that's how we should be approaching this. I gave, and stand by my advice to the OP many posts ago. You asked a question, I answered it, and then you responded with thinly veiled insults, and a holier than thou attitude. Forgive me for feeling the need to defend us evil swingers from your condescension. If you can look him in the eye and say, "I see and feel there would be no value in sharing an exclusive sexual intimacy with you, and if he can look in to your eyes and say the same, then in my personal opinion this would not be marriage, adult type love involving two, well adjusted persons. So you think marriage exists only to justify having a sexual relationship? That's rather shallow, is it not? I personally do not believe that the immature porno teen sex is the equivalent of the mature, well adjusted feelings of love, respect, and sexual attraction that is bound up with real love. Notwithstanding the fact that I find your characterization unnecessarily inflammatory and insulting, but I don't completely disagree with your underlying point. However, one need not forgo "porno teen sex" in order to also have "mature, well adjusted" sex. You can have both. I believe people who engage in swinging are simply expressing immature porno sex because they have been exposed to this type of porno and their wires are crossed and they have not progressed through the degrading, immature, teen oriented sex phase and they want to act these sex fantasies out. Aside from your 18th century sense of morality, upon what do you base this belief? Do you have studies or professional literature that backs your position that the desire to act out sexual fantasies is a result of "crossed wires"? Or are you saying "This is what I want for MY life, therefore everyone else should live this way whether they want to or not"? You saw the response here, it was called "Just F$ckin" And what, pray tell, is the problem with "just f**king" from time to time? The difference to me is, some think that this sex is the same as loving, mutually respectful, exclusive intimacy between two well adjusted adults, and that's where we differ. No, we don't differ. That kind of sex IS different, but for some there is no need to give up the former in order to have the latter. For the second time, sex is not love is not sex. The swingers have made it clear, to them, there is no innate value to sharing an exclusive intimate relationship with the love of their lives. Perhaps you should reread my post, as that is not what I said. I would want to spend my life making you happy and would never desire to see you as a sex object and to watch you being used by other men for that purpose. Your preconceptions are showing. First, even in a monogamous relationship, if you do not occasionally see each other as a sex object that makes for a long, painful, boring relationship. Secondly, you keep implying that women swingers are nothing more than bodies being passed around at the behest of men, which is absolutely not true. If you are going to discuss something, you really should try to acquire a bit of actual knowledge, as opposed to your simply inaccurate prejudices. You can never say, "my love and I have only been with each other since we met and fell in love" That's an impossibility after the deed is done. Why is that so important to you? No one wants to admit to themselves that they have destroyed something meaningful to them for all time, so you may just convince yourself you have lost nothing even though in your heart you might know different. I don't know about you, but people who cannot, or will not, admit when they have made a mistake are probably doomed to repeat them. It's amazing to me that you can say that we're merely deluding ourselves (or lying to ourselves). Perhaps you are right, and we really don't enjoy our activities, we really don't love our friends, and I suppose most of all, we really don't love each other. Should I stop giving my wife a kiss when we go to bed? How about when she gets home from work? You know the biggest difference between you and me, Jeff? My advice to the OP was that she needs to be true to herself, as does her boyfriend. Your advise is that they need to do things your way, even if they don't agree, because you said so. Which of those two positions seems more reasonable?
Guitarjeff Posted September 20, 2009 Posted September 20, 2009 some peoples skulls are really thick and probably still believe in santa clause. don't waste time educating people who don't want to be educated, ignore the trolls. See, we here have an obvious kid who has immature sexuality probably due to porn addiction or some parenting issue.
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