I doubt God

[CaliGuy]

Your post was very good and I appreciate it cali guy. I accept your points, but there's one thing I'd like to ask about.

 

So then why do people commit suicide? And why do some people starve to death, as you mentioned earlier.

 

I'm not sure why they do. When God says "I will never put you through anything that you can't pull through" I think He means "With faith in Him." If you have no faith that God is doing what He is doing for a reason then I can see how people would give up easily.

 

Thomas, I've been through everything your going through and I'd be a liar if I said my faith has not been tested many times. But each time I stick to the knowledge that God has a much better plan for my life than what *I* had planned.

 

And yes, like you, my mom died.

 

Sorry to hear that, Thomas.

 

And I wasn't only good to God when he gave me things. I stuck by him despite my mom dying, and many other hardships in life. It's just that these things are too hard to ignore anymore. Religion has too many contradictions... and if you were about to commit suicide, but prayed to God to give you the strength, wisdom, insight, or even to have him stop you literally, nothing would change. You could still take your life, it's all you, in your hands. That same principle is universal. That's why God didn't give me back anything he took.

 

God is about giving us "free will". He doesn't want a bunch of robots praising Him (what good is that?!). If you rely on your OWN strength, I can see where suicide is an option. But if you rely on God's strength, which is what I think He is referring to when He said "I will not put you through anything you can not overcome", then again, I think you can rise past issues like these.

 

Again, what you are going through is not any different than what most of here on LS have gone through. Not that it makes it any easier but in the end, you have to trust that God has great plans for you. None of us always agree (at the time at least) with what He is doing, but you'll see in the long run it's for your own good.

 

So what if you stayed with this girl and got married and she cheated on you? (Her will, not God's). How would you feel then? If God tried to remove her from your life but you refused, think how much WORSE off you'd be.

 

And that is what makes me feel better. I know my ex is a lying, cheating, no good piece of work (even if I loved her, for whatever reason!). It just took God separating me from her and getting over her to see her for who she truly was.

 

I am sure after much time and reflection you will see your exes faults and understand that God didn't take her away from you as much as He is setting you up for someone much, much better.

 

[Beloved7]

You’re blessed when you’re at the end of your rope. With less of you there is more of God and his rule.You’re blessed when you feel you’ve lost what is most dear to you. Only then can you be embraced by the One most dear to you.You’re blessed when you’re content with just who you are – no more, no less. That’s the moment you find yourselves proud owners of everything that can’t be bought.You’re blessed when you’ve worked up a good appetite for God. He’s food and drink in the best meal you’ll ever eat.You’re blessed when you care. At the moment of being “care-full,” you find yourselves cared for.You’re blessed when you get your inside world – your mind and heart – put right. Then you can see God in the outside world. (Mathew 5:1-8)

 

 

Thomas, believe me, I think we all know what you are going through here! You are not the first person to have a broken heart...nor the last!!! Everything in time passes....but only God can heal you! It is not easy...you will have days of good and bad because you feel your happiness walked out on you!! But why are you so desperately looking and searching for love....when there is a God who wants to love you like no living human being can??? and who is desperately wanting to carry your cross of burden!!! the price for you was already paid....let god carry your pain!!! it is so hard though to give it to him....all your pain!!! I have been dealing with it for months!!! and now finally i am giving it all to him and am really hungry for more and more of the peace he brings!!! even if it is only temporary!!! But it is getting better slowly!!!

 

All of you here....did you once care to think about all the pain God carries??? It is not gods fault that we are GREEDY....that we ABUSE SEX....that we MURDER.....and we HURT our families and friends.....ALL GOD DOES IS TURN THE BAD WE DO AS HUMAN BEINGS INTO SOMETHING GOOD!!! HE TAKES ALL THE BAD AND TRIES SO HARD TO COMFORT US....TO BRING US PEACE IN KNOWING THAT EVEN THOUGH HE CANT PROMISE NOTHING BAD WILL EVER HAPPEN TO US....HE CAN PROMISE US PEACE AND LOVE AND COMFORT FROM HIM THROUGH IT ALL!!!

 

Don't blame God for her walking out....that was her choice.....don't blame God for RAPE....or WARS....OR LETTING ALL BAD HAPPEN....remember too that there is a devil who never sleeps and who is constantly looking to CONFUSE you!!! who makes you believe that even when you are doing wrong...that it is right! Who makes you think TWICE about God!! The farther you are away from god....the happier he is!!! For he is the father of ALL LIES!!! Blame him!!!!

 

If you really want to find God.....you have to seek him with all your mind...all your heart....and all your soul!!!! It takes time....Sometimes its really hard to wait for God!!! because our pain is so much that we just want to find any way out as soon as we can!!! We grow unpatient.....in all reality we are not dealing with our pain like we should....you cant just go to church on sunday.....it takes so much more than that!!! you have to really seek him in so many other ways!!! Because just church didnt do me much either!!! It isnt until you nourish yourself DAILY...that things and gods plan for you gets more clearer!!! I read in a book that "It's hard to accept that God's timing is usually different from ours. And it's even harder to acceptthat God's timing is best for us, because we can't see whats up ahead. We want whats best for us now. but the ability to wait quietly for something is evident of strong character! WHEN YOU ARE ABLE TO WAIT QUIETLY FOR GOD TO ACT WITHOUT BECOMING RESTLESS AND AGITATED, YOU SHOW THAT YOU ARE TRULY TRUSTING HIS TIMING!"

 

GOD IS RARELY EARLY....BUT HE IS NEVER LATE!!!

 

AND JUST REMEMBER FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE SCARED OF JUDGEMENT DAY OR ARE UNSURE....

 

THAT NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON CAN SAY THAT THEY DID NOT HEAR ABOUT GOD!!!

[Trojan John]

AND JUST REMEMBER FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE SCARED OF JUDGEMENT DAY OR ARE UNSURE....

 

THAT NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON CAN SAY THAT THEY DID NOT HEAR ABOUT GOD!!!

 

Except for those hundreds of millions of people who have no concept of the christian god, or an entirely different belief system, whom you've just condemned. Yay, doomsday!

[utterer of lies]

AND JUST REMEMBER FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE SCARED OF JUDGEMENT DAY OR ARE UNSURE....

 

THAT NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON CAN SAY THAT THEY DID NOT HEAR ABOUT GOD!!!

 

Fear and intimidation are one of the oldest weapons of any religion. Do what we (God) says, or suffer!

 

 

But the concept of judgment day is part of what I was referring to. No human can ever completely judge another human. Evil is not absolute, Guilt neither. So the church just says "God knows everything, he will judge all the evil men."

 

This belief makes living in an unfair and imperfect world much easier, because those who do bad things and profit will be punished later on, in death, and thus, the world is no longer as imperfect and unfair.

 

 

Oh, and writing all caps only makes your point stronger, and doesn't give the impression of a deranged lunatic, at all.

[utterer of lies]

Don't blame God for her walking out....that was her choice.....don't blame God for RAPE....or WARS....OR LETTING ALL BAD HAPPEN....remember too that there is a devil who never sleeps and who is constantly looking to CONFUSE you!!! who makes you believe that even when you are doing wrong...that it is right! Who makes you think TWICE about God!! The farther you are away from god....the happier he is!!! For he is the father of ALL LIES!!! Blame him!!!!

 

God encompasses all. Except for the devil. Which he didn't create, well he did kind of, but then, not. And who is responsible for all the bad things.

 

So, yeah, blame the devil, not humans, for all the atrocities humanity commits.

 

 

 

because our pain is so much that we just want to find any way out as soon as we can!!!

 

Which, of course, is submission under the imaginary alpha male in the sky, who knows everything and will make everything alright.

 

Don't worry, all your pain, your suffering is not meaningless. It's not random. It's not accidental. He consciously puts you through it, tortures you, because he loves you so. It makes so much sense you have to reprogram your brain for many years until you can truly believe it, see it.

 

 

Sick.

[TaraMaiden]

Beloved....honestly...? I'd quit whilst you're behind......

[northstar1]

Since the thread is here............

 

The concept of God is a manmade creation from thousands of years ago, as a way to understand and explain occurrences in the natural world that they could not understand (how the sun moved across the sky, death, weather changes). Not to mention as a tool to control and instill fear in people.

 

The advent and evolution of science and medicine has now provided answers to those questions.

 

If you require faith in a greater power in your life in order to have hope, so be it.

 

If you are going depend on that same power for your own happiness and fate then you are likely to be greatly disappointed.

[banser123]

Some people say that God knows whats better for you and its a blessing in disguise that you dont get what you pray for sometines. That means that if you get back with your ex you will not be happy, so to speak.

Well it all depends on what happened between you and your ex. In my case, there is no other guy, she is just depressed and very insecure and has very serious trust issues. She is not a player or cheater. So based on that I pray to God that she can get better with her insecurities and trusting, so if we were to get back together it wouldnt be bad and we would be happy. This might sound corny but its true.

As much as I want her back, I want her to be emotionally stronger and happier, otherwise it will not work out for us. So in reality I am praying for her, as well as me.

[Thomas X Forever]

Some people say that God knows whats better for you and its a blessing in disguise that you dont get what you pray for sometines. That means that if you get back with your ex you will not be happy, so to speak.

Well it all depends on what happened between you and your ex. In my case, there is no other guy, she is just depressed and very insecure and has very serious trust issues. She is not a player or cheater. So based on that I pray to God that she can get better with her insecurities and trusting, so if we were to get back together it wouldnt be bad and we would be happy. This might sound corny but its true.

As much as I want her back, I want her to be emotionally stronger and happier, otherwise it will not work out for us. So in reality I am praying for her, as well as me.

 

 

Psychology could be her savior, not God

[quankanne]

for argument's sake, lets say we take God out of this particular equation: What must TX do? Carefully review this relationship and figure out what role she plays in the problems as well as the role he does? Decide what he will and won't settle for? Figure out what happens next? All good and fine, and the normal course of things. However, with a spiritual dimension, he's not leaning unto himself for answers, but tapping into something that is just more than him – morally, psycologically, emotionally, spiritually, etc. He's not a retard for wanting more, just human.

 

 

Today, we can run computer simulations where all the parameters are accounted for (since we programmed them), and show that environment, randomness and selection are enough to generate the most complex of systems.

 

si, se puede … but we as humans are limited in our understanding, though we like to think otherwise. Science is a useful TOOL, but I still think it's just us coming up with suitable words and explanations and "answers" for what we think understand. Because it is ever-evolving, it shows us exactly how ignorant we are. Yet there's still an element of "magic," of belief that makes these theories and suppositions and ideas work ... why is it such a crime to include spirituality in that realm of belief? I personally am not hurting you or any other poster by saying that there's a supernatural director of events when I look at how life works ... I might irritate you, but I'm not *hurting* you in any way. At which point, I think the only rational thing to do is to agree to disagree, and walk away in a dignified manner, understanding that we've just broadened our knowledge.

[wuggle]

GOD IS RARELY EARLY....BUT HE IS NEVER LATE!!!

 

AND JUST REMEMBER FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE SCARED OF JUDGEMENT DAY OR ARE UNSURE....

 

THAT NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON CAN SAY THAT THEY DID NOT HEAR ABOUT GOD!!!

 

Why are you shouting ??? Athiests aren't deaf , we just chose to stop listening to this cr*p !!!

[lorilynne]

Why are you shouting ??? Athiests aren't deaf , we just chose to stop listening to this cr*p !!!

 

LOL. The caps were a little excessive. I think the problem is (or at least it is for me), I never had a strong enough connection to God to begin with. I grew up in church, off and on, and now go on special occassions. I don't have a personal relationship with God.

 

So what does that mean? Well, for me, it means that when something wonderful happens in my life, I don't think God played a role in bringing that wonderful to me. I might later think of it, but never initially.

This also means that when something bad happens, after I am have fought through the initial shock, I turn to God. I pray and wonder why it has been fixed the way I want it to. However, what I want is unrealistic. Then, comes the anger, wanting to know why God did this to me.

 

I think a relationship with God is like a partnership with the bank. If you never make any deposits, you can't seek help when you are overdrawn.

 

I know that is what I do. I'm not there and I don't put into the relationship, but I expect His help when I'm in peril. The problem is, I feel like building a relationship right now would be "faking it". I don't feel the "faith" inside that I should. I wish I did. I'm not an athiest but I know I'm a real Christian either.

 

Anyone else understand? Ideas? How do you regain "faith" or is it time to look into alternative spiritual options?

[quankanne]

I think a relationship with God is like a partnership with the bank. If you never make any deposits, you can't seek help when you are overdrawn.

 

that's an interesting way of looking at it, lorilynne ... but we're giving him more human-like attributes than we should if we think of a relationship in terms of what we normally know. According to Scripture, he's supposed to be very much an open-arms kind of God who loves us so much that a lopsided relationship isn't an issue, but the fact that we *willingly* go to him is. I guess the closest analogy (though a poor one) is thinking how our grandparents would make things better just by loving us when our parents were pissed at us for being bad or naughty

 

however, I can see how you'd view it in terms of absolutes, especially when it's how you might live your life (*raises hand*), but the beauty of God's love is that it's all encompassing ...

 

at least this has been my own experience.

[RedDevil66]

You’re blessed when you’re at the end of your rope. With less of you there is more of God and his rule.You’re blessed when you feel you’ve lost what is most dear to you. Only then can you be embraced by the One most dear to you.You’re blessed when you’re content with just who you are – no more, no less. That’s the moment you find yourselves proud owners of everything that can’t be bought.You’re blessed when you’ve worked up a good appetite for God. He’s food and drink in the best meal you’ll ever eat.You’re blessed when you care. At the moment of being “care-full,” you find yourselves cared for.You’re blessed when you get your inside world – your mind and heart – put right. Then you can see God in the outside world. (Mathew 5:1-8)

 

 

Thomas, believe me, I think we all know what you are going through here! You are not the first person to have a broken heart...nor the last!!! Everything in time passes....but only God can heal you! It is not easy...you will have days of good and bad because you feel your happiness walked out on you!! But why are you so desperately looking and searching for love....when there is a God who wants to love you like no living human being can??? and who is desperately wanting to carry your cross of burden!!! the price for you was already paid....let god carry your pain!!! it is so hard though to give it to him....all your pain!!! I have been dealing with it for months!!! and now finally i am giving it all to him and am really hungry for more and more of the peace he brings!!! even if it is only temporary!!! But it is getting better slowly!!!

 

All of you here....did you once care to think about all the pain God carries??? It is not gods fault that we are GREEDY....that we ABUSE SEX....that we MURDER.....and we HURT our families and friends.....ALL GOD DOES IS TURN THE BAD WE DO AS HUMAN BEINGS INTO SOMETHING GOOD!!! HE TAKES ALL THE BAD AND TRIES SO HARD TO COMFORT US....TO BRING US PEACE IN KNOWING THAT EVEN THOUGH HE CANT PROMISE NOTHING BAD WILL EVER HAPPEN TO US....HE CAN PROMISE US PEACE AND LOVE AND COMFORT FROM HIM THROUGH IT ALL!!!

 

Don't blame God for her walking out....that was her choice.....don't blame God for RAPE....or WARS....OR LETTING ALL BAD HAPPEN....remember too that there is a devil who never sleeps and who is constantly looking to CONFUSE you!!! who makes you believe that even when you are doing wrong...that it is right! Who makes you think TWICE about God!! The farther you are away from god....the happier he is!!! For he is the father of ALL LIES!!! Blame him!!!!

 

If you really want to find God.....you have to seek him with all your mind...all your heart....and all your soul!!!! It takes time....Sometimes its really hard to wait for God!!! because our pain is so much that we just want to find any way out as soon as we can!!! We grow unpatient.....in all reality we are not dealing with our pain like we should....you cant just go to church on sunday.....it takes so much more than that!!! you have to really seek him in so many other ways!!! Because just church didnt do me much either!!! It isnt until you nourish yourself DAILY...that things and gods plan for you gets more clearer!!! I read in a book that "It's hard to accept that God's timing is usually different from ours. And it's even harder to acceptthat God's timing is best for us, because we can't see whats up ahead. We want whats best for us now. but the ability to wait quietly for something is evident of strong character! WHEN YOU ARE ABLE TO WAIT QUIETLY FOR GOD TO ACT WITHOUT BECOMING RESTLESS AND AGITATED, YOU SHOW THAT YOU ARE TRULY TRUSTING HIS TIMING!"

 

GOD IS RARELY EARLY....BUT HE IS NEVER LATE!!!

 

AND JUST REMEMBER FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE SCARED OF JUDGEMENT DAY OR ARE UNSURE....

 

THAT NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON CAN SAY THAT THEY DID NOT HEAR ABOUT GOD!!!

 

Praise the friggin Lord,

This post is exactly why I chose never to be religious. How conditioned and brainwahsed you are.

Humans are a funny bunch. We should have been called sheep.

[skreen23]

I used to have a very strong faith in some kind higher being. When my da died that got a battering and now i'm not too sure. I know that when i was on mushies or ayauascha or mescaline i got a very strong sense of a higher power. An unbelieveable sense of connection with other people and nature. That all living being are connected by some sort of power or mass conciousness and all are linked by suffering and death. But then i came down.

All i know now is i haven't got that certainty to believe there is a God but i could never be an atheist. In my experience an atheist can be as intolerant as the most ardent christian.

[sunshinegirl]

Well, all I can say is that the relationship losses I've had over the years put a big chink in the spiritual armor...to the point that I am today a functional atheist even though I grew up as a very faithful, devout, service-oriented, believing Christian.

 

My loss of faith wasn't because I got mad at God and have held a grudge ever since for 'taking away' people I wanted in my life; it's more that my prayer experience of God, relating to these various relationships, started to diverge wildly from everything I had learned about faith - even the part about dark silences and God 'withdrawing'.

 

Yes, one way to interpret the silence is that it's God withdrawing. Another way to interpret it is...God's not there.

 

Until 3 or 4 years ago I never even let myself entertain the possibility that there wasn't a God.

 

Now? Now it actually seems implausible to me that there IS one, nevermind the Christian one.

 

OP if you are interested in reading others' experiences 'deconverting' from the faith, check out http://www.de-conversion.com. It's a good group of writers and an interesting community of people who discuss all angles of the Christian faith...from the point of view (mostly) of having questioned and lost their faith.

[Thornton]

What do you think hurts you the most? The fact you lost her and miss her, or the fact that she obviously doesn't love you? Thinking of my ex, I'd say what hurts the most is that I really needed him and he didn't love me. Of course I miss him, but I can fill that gap - what really hurts is that he simply didn't care about me.

 

I guess I felt like I needed someone to love me and be there for me - I needed someone to rely on, someone to be my rock, someone who I could build my life around. And I did build my life around him - all of my dreams for the future were based on spending my life with him. Then suddenly I was betrayed and alone, all of my dreams were shattered and I had no future any more without him, and I had nobody to rely on, nobody to love me... I was completely alone and it hurt like hell. But what hurt the most was that he abandoned me to that fate and he didn't care if I was alone, he didn't care about looking after me, and he didn't care what happened to me. I really needed him to stand by me, but he just didn't want to know.

 

Do you really want her back, even if she doesn't care about you? Or are you imagining having her back, but this time she really cares about you and you can depend on her? It took me a long time to get this straight in my mind: I wanted my ex back, but I didn't want him as he really was - I wanted him back, but I wanted him to love and care about me, I wanted the guy I had in my head not the guy he really was. Eventually I admitted to myself that if he didn't love and care about me then I didn't really want him back. What I was wishing for was not him as he really was; I was wishing for a guy who would truly love and support me and stand by me, and I wanted him to be that guy, even though he clearly wasn't.

 

You're blaming God for losing your gf, but is losing her such a bad thing if she didn't love you? Perhaps what you're really hurt about is the fact that she didn't love you, because you really need someone to love you and be there for you, and it hurts that she doesn't even care. If I could wave a magic wand and bring her back to you, but she still wouldn't be in love with you, would you want that? I certainly wouldn't - when I think about wanting my ex back, what I really want is for him to love me, but unfortunately there's this little thing called free will that even God won't interfere with...

 

It took me a long time to come to this realisation, but losing someone who doesn't love you is not the worst thing that can happen. At least you're free to find someone who does love you, rather than being with someone who you totally adore but who doesn't love you back. When I thought only about how much I loved my ex, it seemed like a tragedy that I had lost him, but when I expanded my perspective to consider that he didn't love me it seemed like I had dodged a bullet, because I was free to find someone who did love me. It didn't stop me wishing that he loved me, of course, but it did make me realise that wanting to be with someone who would never love and support me was not a sensible thing to do. I really need someone who I can totally trust and rely on, someone who has my back and truly loves me, so if he wasn't that guy then I guess it's best if I'm not with him.

[wuggle]

I used to have a very strong faith in some kind higher being. When my da died that got a battering and now i'm not too sure. I know that when i was on mushies or ayauascha or mescaline i got a very strong sense of a higher power. An unbelieveable sense of connection with other people and nature. That all living being are connected by some sort of power or mass conciousness and all are linked by suffering and death. But then i came down.

All i know now is i haven't got that certainty to believe there is a God but i could never be an atheist. In my experience an atheist can be as intolerant as the most ardent christian.

 

 

There are people on the far right and far left on the god\atheist argument, most fortunately are quite moderate and open minded on both sides and are willing to accept that they really don't know.

 

Whilst being an atheist rather than an agnostic (ie I dont feel the need to believe in a 'higher power') I do accept the idea of an interconnectedness and mass-consciousness and do believe some of the ideas proposed by 'faiths' (sic) like Buddhism. Recent advances in science and quantum theory do point to this possibility so I do think it is possible to believe in some 'weird sh*t' which we don't understand yet, be an atheist and not have to leave open the possibility of god.

 

Atheits still see wonder and awe in the world, even without a god, maybe even more so.

 

Hell, I'll even accept that the Yeti & UFOs might be real if any evidence pops up supporting them.

[skreen23]

The mad thing is, even when i really doubted the existance of God anytime i was in danger or in some kind of emotional distress i went back into Irish catholic mode but once that passed i was back wondering is there a God.

Its like they say there's no atheists in the trenches.

When i was younger i stayed on a sioux indian reservation for a few months and saw a few things i couldn't rationally explain but when you get back from that you start to question things again.

I'm a country boy and when i'm in a rural enviroment you do get a sense of a higher power but when i was living in a city i became very sceptical.

Maybe God wears a straw hat and a plaid shirt. I reckon Neil youngs god. Scratch that Neil Young is God.

[wuggle]

The mad thing is, even when i really doubted the existance of God anytime i was in danger or in some kind of emotional distress i went back into Irish catholic mode but once that passed i was back wondering is there a God.

Its like they say there's no atheists in the trenches.

When i was younger i stayed on a sioux indian reservation for a few months and saw a few things i couldn't rationally explain but when you get back from that you start to question things again.

I'm a country boy and when i'm in a rural enviroment you do get a sense of a higher power but when i was living in a city i became very sceptical.

Maybe God wears a straw hat and a plaid shirt. I reckon Neil youngs god. Scratch that Neil Young is God.

 

I think it will always be difficult to get over the natural inclination to revert to the way you were brought up in times of stress, If you were taught to believe in god throughout all the formative years of your life, whenever the sh*t hits the fan I think your brain is pre-disposed to believe in god again. I think this will diminish with time. Stick with it. When times are hard , try to use the same logic you normally use. If every fibre of your being, all your logic and common sense lead you to the 'belief' that god cannot and does not exist, then stick with it even in hard times. It's no more god's fault that something has gone wrong than his great achievment that things went right.

 

That being said, sometime's I swear I still hear father christmas's sleigh bells :)

[skreen23]

Nah, I'm sticking with my Neil Youngs god theory. Think about it, you never see them in the same room. I starting up the First church of Neil Young the Divnine tomorrow. Wanna join.