Who Traded Down?

[foreal]

I posted this in the Infidelity forum, but I think this may be a better place- sorry if I am not supposed to post in both..I don't know how to move the other one!!

 

 

I have heard that the married person 'trades down' when they select in an A partner. (looks or intellect or financially or status, etc)

 

But what if BOTH partners in the A are married?

 

Who is trading down if the are both married?

 

And for OW/OM, do you feel you were trading up or down with the MM/MW you had the A with? What if you are/were married at the time??

 

Is that a Double Downer?!!

[jj33]

Where did you read that? I dont think xMM traded down in choosing me. I am more educated than he is, at least as attractive successful ...

[GreenEyedLady]

I wonder if you realize that you asked a very rude question. It's one I've seen on infidelity boards that BS's discuss so they can make themselves feel better that their spouse cheated on them by tearing the AP apart.

 

I date my equal. I don't trade up or down as if a person is a car. I wanted an equal partner and that's what I got, no explanations needed.

 

I would think a better question for you to ask yourself is why am I even asking a question like this.

 

GEL

[OWoman]

I have heard that the married person 'trades down' when they select in an A partner. (looks or intellect or financially or status, etc)

 

Well you heard wrong.

[2sure]

Initially I didnt want to entertain this thread, simply because the question is put in either a rude or sarcastic way. But maybe it is a sincere question , simply using the wrong approach.

 

I think the idea of "trading down" has some merit in some cases.

For example: A serial cheater. A MM who is always open (or newly looking) to meeting a woman who might be interested in an affair. He is a predator. Cheaters like this require a woman who is at a vulnerable point in her life. Single mothers, students, unhappily married, insecure as far as looks, etc.

 

The vulnerability requirement is there for 2 reasons:

A woman who is not vulnerable, a woman who is strong does not date MM AND/OR can recognize a predator when she sees one.

 

A woman who is vulnerable will more easily buy into the whole knight in shining armor thing , its easy to make an insecure woman be happy with so little, especially if it is from a guy who wouldnt give her a chance if he was single. Easier for her to think: We're soul mates, if only he wasn't staying for the kids, the poor guy.

 

Now - mind you: This scenario involves a predator. Not all MM/MW who have affairs are predators just as not all OW/OM are vulnerable.

 

Its based on my experience, and I do believe is where the idea of "trading down" may have come from.

[MistyK]

I posted this in the Infidelity forum, but I think this may be a better place- sorry if I am not supposed to post in both..I don't know how to move the other one!!

 

 

I have heard that the married person 'trades down' when they select in an A partner. (looks or intellect or financially or status, etc)

 

But what if BOTH partners in the A are married?

 

Who is trading down if the are both married?

 

And for OW/OM, do you feel you were trading up or down with the MM/MW you had the A with? What if you are/were married at the time??

 

Is that a Double Downer?!!

 

Incredibly rude, but ok. Again, you heard wrong. I had an EA with my MM who was better looking, better educated, and more financially sound than my H. I am younger, better educated, more independent, more financially sound than MM's wife and by BS's own words- way better looking than her. So no one went for the lowest bidder here.

 

As 2sure said though, there is a phenomenon that sometimes happen with serial cheaters...I've seen guys cheat with women that are dogmeat compared to thier girlfriend/wife. For them, it's just about bedpost notches, nothing more.

[jj33]

Right the other side. I am also younger, prettier and more educated and more successful than xMMs wife.

[foreal]

I was not trying to be rude or to offend- I read it here on a thread (in the Inf. Forum), then also as someone here stated it is on other boards as well .

 

...I was just wondering if OW/OM felt they were getting what they really wanted out of an A w/ a married person- especially if both were married. I had no idea which is why I asked. I did not mean that the MM was trading up or down, I wondered if the OW, esp. the MOW, felt SHE traded up or down...

 

I appreciate the feedback, sorry again to come off sounding rude, not my intention at all...and thanks 2sure, that was a really good answer-

 

I was just trying to get some insight.....!

[Gamine]

You can read all about the studies on the trading down phenomenon. There are many women who are gorgeous whose husbands cheat with women who are 'average' or 'below average' in the looks department. I have often felt that I would pay top dollar to get a gander at some of the players on this forum. All of the OW are desirable, successful, wonderful in bed, irresistible... you name it in their own mind's eye. Then you look at the gorgeous wives and nine times out of ten you have nothing more than the reality of a WS picking on a vulnerable, gullible woman who was either never married or married, divorced and with kids who is desperate to be loved and cared for. The Jackass fellas prey on this with all of their gusto.

 

Now, before jumping all over my post I say what I say from personal experience as well as the experiences of others memorialized in studies.

 

There are exceptions to this rule, I am certain of this. However, the facts are the facts.

[GreenEyedLady]

You can read all about the studies on the trading down phenomenon. There are many women who are gorgeous whose husbands cheat with women who are 'average' or 'below average' in the looks department. I have often felt that I would pay top dollar to get a gander at some of the players on this forum. All of the OW are desirable, successful, wonderful in bed, irresistible... you name it in their own mind's eye. Then you look at the gorgeous wives and nine times out of ten you have nothing more than the reality of a WS picking on a vulnerable, gullible woman who was either never married or married, divorced and with kids who is desperate to be loved and cared for. The Jackass fellas prey on this with all of their gusto.

 

Now, before jumping all over my post I say what I say from personal experience as well as the experiences of others memorialized in studies.

 

There are exceptions to this rule, I am certain of this. However, the facts are the facts.

 

Oh, I know this was where this was going to go.

 

So funny that studies REQUIRE participants to speak the entire truth and how truthful is someone who will say ANYTHING so his W will get off his back? Factor in that the majority of A's go undetected and that those who participate in a study in the first place have a stake in the outcome.

 

**Yawn**

 

Ya wanna know what I look like? Check out my Avatar, it's not that far off.

 

Education: 2 master's degrees, professional career (which I love) and I'm a good mom and stepmom.

 

It's not supposed to be a competition. I never focused on his W because she wasn't part of our R. Just like the W shouldn't focus on the OW for the very same reason. If someone can't repair their M without resorting to insults, I wouldn't say it's built on a very strong foundation.

 

GEL

[Enema]

Beautiful, intelligent, sane.

 

You can only pick two.

[Mino]

Oh, I know this was where this was going to go.

 

So funny that studies REQUIRE participants to speak the entire truth and how truthful is someone who will say ANYTHING so his W will get off his back? Factor in that the majority of A's go undetected and that those who participate in a study in the first place have a stake in the outcome.

 

**Yawn**

 

Ya wanna know what I look like? Check out my Avatar, it's not that far off.

 

Education: 2 master's degrees, professional career (which I love) and I'm a good mom and stepmom.

 

It's not supposed to be a competition. I never focused on his W because she wasn't part of our R. Just like the W shouldn't focus on the OW for the very same reason. If someone can't repair their M without resorting to insults, I wouldn't say it's built on a very strong foundation.

 

GEL

great post Gel, I never looked at it as competition either.. I met her a few times, nice person... a bit on the cold side, but why should I even think about comparing myself to her?

[me003]

I guess its all in the way that the MM or MW look at it.

 

Sometimes the OW/OM can make the MW/MM feel like they are the best thing on earth while the BS who is dealing with daily married life does not give that.

 

My friend's husband cheated on her because she gained weight. She had 2 Masters, yet he and his family treated her like an outsider. Everyone treated the OW better than the BS. The OW took care of herself (meaning not fat). For MM and his family looks was it. So he divorced BS and went with OW.

 

So in this case BS was more educated, great mother, great job. OW had an OK job, but was beautiful.

 

So in this case did he trade up or trade down? MM thought so.

 

I think it all depends on how MM/MW views the OW/OM.

[herenow]

Not everyone views beauty or success the same. IMO, the OW fills a void in the MM (not a void in the marriage or the BW). It really doesn't matter what either woman looks like or what career path they have taken, it's all about the MM getting his fix.

 

I don't see it as trading up or down, just a way for MM to get what he wants. If a MM does leave his wife for the OW, IMO it's because they are a better match. It doesn't mean that one woman is better or worse than the other. JMO

 

Having said that, I would be surprised if my H's OW wasn't attractive. My H is a very visual man and I can't see him being interested in an unattractive woman.

 

I will say that she was much more needy than I am and it gave him a chance to be a knight in shining armor. One of the things I learned in MC was that it's OK to need someone. Now when I ask my H For help, I don't feel like I'm nagging him because I know that it makes him feel needed and valued. Small TJ, but I use it as a example of a difference that may be between a BW and a OW that could matter to a MM. It has no bearing on the woman, it's what makes the MM feel good about himself.

[me003]

Not everyone views beauty or success the same. IMO, the OW fills a void in the MM (not a void in the marriage or the BW). It really doesn't matter what either woman looks like or what career path they have taken, it's all about the MM getting his fix.

 

I don't see it as trading up or down, just a way for MM to get what he wants. If a MM does leave his wife for the OW, IMO it's because they are a better match. It doesn't mean that one woman is better or worse than the other. JMO

 

Having said that, I would be surprised if my H's OW wasn't attractive. My H is a very visual man and I can't see him being interested in an unattractive woman.

 

Small TJ, but I use it as a example of a difference that may be between a BW and a OW that could matter to a MM. It has no bearing on the woman, it's what makes the MM feel good about himself.

 

 

I liked your observation on why affairs occur.

 

I think that communication is such a part of any relationship. Of course communication from both parties.

I'm glad that (from what I gathered here) that MC helped you better your R with your H.

[Gamine]

The studies on the subject of trading down have been widely published because it is a phenomenon that had many people puzzled. Why do MM choose affair partners who are less attractive, less successful, less intelligent, etc... from their spouse? Apparently there was enough on the subject to warrant pursuit and pursued it was. In my situation the OW was an utter disaster and only a disastrous woman would be able to offer the sex on a platter "porn" experience as a carrot when trying to secure another husband. There are situations where men and women meet and what is going on is for real. More often than not it is about manipulation and trying to feel good about themselves again. Men, all too often, do this through their pants. Sad but true. Intercourse = love. Give them intercourse, fill a fantasy of themselves, and VOILA... you are the best woman (to them) on the face of the planet. However, most women who are established, attractive (even gorgeous), wouldn't give one of these guys the time of day.

 

GEL, I personally don't think your avatar seems even remotely interesting. Pigtails?

[MistyK]

In my situation the OW was an utter disaster and only a disastrous woman would be able to offer the sex on a platter "porn" experience as a carrot when trying to secure another husband.

 

Wow. You have NO CLUE. Whatever helps you BS sleep at night. That's right...just keep believing you are the best most gorgeous women on earth so that you avoid the devastation that the OW might have been a better pick. Obviously in your situation the OW was not a "upgrade", but to say that almost never happens, is nothing short of delusional. Men that just want to get laid care less about trading up or down I think, and so they might pic a lower model, but how is that comforting - to think your H will F anything with a p*ssy? What would that say about you?

[LaGazelle]

 

As 2sure said though, there is a phenomenon that sometimes happen with serial cheaters...I've seen guys cheat with women that are dogmeat compared to thier girlfriend/wife. For them, it's just about bedpost notches, nothing more.

 

Or more generically...this happens in any situation when the MM is not looking for an equal partner, or a proper relationship, but just wants to take advatage of an opportunity for sex/adoration from a woman who is desperate enough to jump at whatever scraps gets thrown her way. Perhaps it is a bit more than bedpost notches...rather more like "ego notches".

[LaGazelle]

 

So funny that studies REQUIRE participants to speak the entire truth and how truthful is someone who will say ANYTHING so his W will get off his back? Factor in that the majority of A's go undetected and that those who participate in a study in the first place have a stake in the outcome.

 

GEL

 

GEL, you make a fair point. However I'm sure you can also appreciate that researchers are generally aware that they can't always take particpants' conscious and subjective input at face value, that is why they often employ research approaches to probe and explore phenomena that would otherwise remain hidden.

 

Quality research tends not be so simplistic as to rely on just what appears to be most obvious, and good researchers normally take into account research anomalies and discrepancies before drawing conclusions. I'm sure they consider particpants' the credibility or lack thereof.

 

Re the point that a MM will say anything to his wife....I suspect the typical MM in this situation is more likely to say anything ..i.e lie to the OW. Not least of all because he is apt to feel less obliged to tell the latter the truth....why bother when she already knows he lies?!

[Gamine]

Wow. You have NO CLUE. Whatever helps you BS sleep at night. That's right...just keep believing you are the best most gorgeous women on earth so that you avoid the devastation that the OW might have been a better pick. Obviously in your situation the OW was not a "upgrade", but to say that almost never happens, is nothing short of delusional. Men that just want to get laid care less about trading up or down I think, and so they might pic a lower model, but how is that comforting - to think your H will F anything with a p*ssy? What would that say about you?

 

 

That doesn't say anything about me, MistyK. It says something about him which is the very point I'm making here. The guy has been in IC because he 'became' screwed up in the head like so many other guys in a MLC... in walks sex on a stick and the ball just got rolling. It fed a sickness/perversion that he morphed into thanks to porn. I read an article recently (actually numerous articles) dealing with the subject of men offered sex and the likelihood that very few men turn it down. Married or single.

 

Okay. What does that say about men in general? What does that say about women in general? Well, it seems there are guys that are just pervs. There are guys who may have emotional problems. There are women who are just pervs. There are women who have emotional problems.

 

The thing that really cracks me up MistyK, is that I when I read the words in this forum I wonder whether 90% are 'What Not to Wear' delusional "I'm gorgeous" potential makeover victims. I figure if you are that 'hot' being an OW wouldn't mean anything whatsoever to you. I other words, it wouldn't mean that you were desirable because you were an OW and certainly the competition thing wouldn't exist. What cracks me up further is that the OW seem to be in competition, not the BS. And, for the record I dated married guys when I was still wet behind the ears. Now I'm a grown woman and look at all of this like a bunch of immature women who have serious self esteem problems. Who gives a crap if you 'get a guy to love you'. Big deal. Anyone can get someone to sleep with them and anyone can get a married guy to screw around with them. Not everyone can find sustaining love and respect. My husband was an ******* for 5 months out of 15 years. We just got back from our third trip this year. His OW screwed him twice. I wake up with him every morning. There's a difference.

[Gamine]

Or more generically...this happens in any situation when the MM is not looking for an equal partner, or a proper relationship, but just wants to take advatage of an opportunity for sex/adoration from a woman who is desperate enough to jump at whatever scraps gets thrown her way. Perhaps it is a bit more than bedpost notches...rather more like "ego notches".

 

Nothing could be more accurate, LaGazelle!

[MistyK]

That doesn't say anything about me, MistyK. It says something about him which is the very point I'm making here. The guy has been in IC because he 'became' screwed up in the head like so many other guys in a MLC... in walks sex on a stick and the ball just got rolling. It fed a sickness/perversion that he morphed into thanks to porn. I read an article recently (actually numerous articles) dealing with the subject of men offered sex and the likelihood that very few men turn it down. Married or single.

 

Okay. What does that say about men in general? What does that say about women in general? Well, it seems there are guys that are just pervs. There are guys who may have emotional problems. There are women who are just pervs. There are women who have emotional problems.

 

Ok, agreed.

 

The thing that really cracks me up MistyK, is that I when I read the words in this forum I wonder whether 90% are 'What Not to Wear' delusional "I'm gorgeous" potential makeover victims.

 

Obviously it makes you and a lot of other BS feel good to think so. But statistically speaking, as with any other group of people, the likelihood of ALL of us being dogmeat, let alone MOST is very very very slim.

 

I figure if you are that 'hot' being an OW wouldn't mean anything whatsoever to you. I other words, it wouldn't mean that you were desirable because you were an OW and certainly the competition thing wouldn't exist. What cracks me up further is that the OW seem to be in competition, not the BS.

 

OMG! Please! The BS not in comeptition? You've got to be kidding me. What is it then when the BS asks her kids to "confirm" that she's prettier than the OW? What is it when the BS tries to find out everything there is to know about the OW just so she can compare herself? What is it when the BS tells the OW to back off - that's competition. The BS is not somehow "above" all that. That's so hilarious that you would say otherwise.

 

And, for the record I dated married guys when I was still wet behind the ears.

 

Well, since you're evidently quite convinced all OW are dogmeat compared to the BW's, how do you explain this trade down? Are you willing to concede that all the BW's you hurt by being an OW were "better" (smarter, prettier, etc) than you?

 

Now I'm a grown woman and look at all of this like a bunch of immature women who have serious self esteem problems. Who gives a crap if you 'get a guy to love you'. Big deal. Anyone can get someone to sleep with them and anyone can get a married guy to screw around with them. Not everyone can find sustaining love and respect. My husband was an ******* for 5 months out of 15 years. We just got back from our third trip this year. His OW screwed him twice. I wake up with him every morning. There's a difference.

 

If that's not a competitive "I won" staement, I don't know what is. But silly me, you're above all that as a BS. And twice that you know about from your liar H. Ok.

[OWoman]

The studies on the subject of trading down have been widely published because it is a phenomenon that had many people puzzled. Why do MM choose affair partners who are less attractive, less successful, less intelligent, etc... from their spouse? Apparently there was enough on the subject to warrant pursuit and pursued it was.

 

GEL, you make a fair point. However I'm sure you can also appreciate that researchers are generally aware that they can't always take particpants' conscious and subjective input at face value, that is why they often employ research approaches to probe and explore phenomena that would otherwise remain hidden.

 

Quality research tends not be so simplistic as to rely on just what appears to be most obvious, and good researchers normally take into account research anomalies and discrepancies before drawing conclusions. I'm sure they consider particpants' the credibility or lack thereof.

 

Could either of you please supply references / details of these alleged studies? Those of us who are qualified and practising social researchers would be very interested in the details, particularly the methodology, sampling and research design. What you ask, and who you ask it of, determines what you will find.

 

If you're asking MMs who had As but chose to remain in / return to their Ms after the A, there is a HIGH PROBABILITY that they will say the OW was "lesser" than their W (in whatever respect matters to them) because, after all, they chose to remain with the W. OTOH, if you're asking MMs who dumped the BW and married the OW, of coure they'll say the OW was "better" than the W, because, hey, they chose to be with her. That much is not rocket science.

 

Re the point that a MM will say anything to his wife....I suspect the typical MM in this situation is more likely to say anything ..i.e lie to the OW. Not least of all because he is apt to feel less obliged to tell the latter the truth....why bother when she already knows he lies?!

 

OTC - the stakes are typically lower with the OW, so the pressure to lie is less. She already knows the truth (he's M...) and still wants him, whereas the BW doesn't know the truth (the A) and may not want him anymore if she did, so there's far more risk in truthfulness with the BW than with the OW.

 

I wondered if the OW, esp. the MOW, felt SHE traded up or down...

 

None of my MMs were bottom-feeders. All are highly successful, at the top of their game, attractive physically and socially. As were the SGs I involved myself with - so no "trading down" on either score. I want someone who is my equal, and I know what I'm worth and won't settle for less.

 

What cracks me up further is that the OW seem to be in competition, not the BS. And, for the record I dated married guys when I was still wet behind the ears. Now I'm a grown woman and look at all of this like a bunch of immature women who have serious self esteem problems. Who gives a crap if you 'get a guy to love you'. Big deal. Anyone can get someone to sleep with them and anyone can get a married guy to screw around with them. Not everyone can find sustaining love and respect.

 

Being M is not a badge of honour - you have only to look at some of the freaks of nature on shows like Jerry Springer to see just how easy it is to get M. Anyone can get M if they're prepared to settle for that - you just have to stop saying no when guys propose.

 

Being M has NOTHING to do with sustaining love and respect. I've been M - am again, now - and I've been an OW and neither has any inherent claim to respect or love or the lack thereof. In both cases it has to do with the nature of the R negotiated betwen the two parties - what THEY're prepared to accept and give. If you demand respect and love - you'll get it, whether from an MM or a H or whoever else you're in a R with - but only if you're worth it, and only if you think you're worth it. You need to earn it and you need to own it.

[Gamine]

Ok, agreed.

 

 

 

Obviously it makes you and a lot of other BS feel good to think so. But statistically speaking, as with any other group of people, the likelihood of ALL of us being dogmeat, let alone MOST is very very very slim.

 

 

 

OMG! Please! The BS not in comeptition? You've got to be kidding me. What is it then when the BS asks her kids to "confirm" that she's prettier than the OW? What is it when the BS tries to find out everything there is to know about the OW just so she can compare herself? What is it when the BS tells the OW to back off - that's competition. The BS is not somehow "above" all that. That's so hilarious that you would say otherwise.

 

 

 

Well, since you're evidently quite convinced all OW are dogmeat compared to the BW's, how do you explain this trade down? Are you willing to concede that all the BW's you hurt by being an OW were "better" (smarter, prettier, etc) than you?

 

 

 

If that's not a competitive "I won" staement, I don't know what is. But silly me, you're above all that as a BS. And twice that you know about from your liar H. Ok.

 

 

I want some of whatever you're smoking, MistyK.

 

Let's get serious here. No woman wants her boyfriend or husband screwing someone else unless you're into some kinky crap. I don't have sex with more than one person at a time and certainly don't feel like having sex with a man who is 'doing' someone else. It is just plain gross. So, yes, MistyK, generally speaking someone's mate/partner would be curious who they've been sleeping with and generally get pissed off by it. Get serious. It isn't a competition. The OW goes into knowing she is having sex with a man who is having sex (oh, sorry, I know, I know... they NEVER have sex with their wives) with at least one other person. Not the case with their spouse. Sorry, I'd be just a tad bit curious where my husband's naked body was and where it was.

 

Telling the OW to back off is not competition. That's called a threat to a scavenger. Competition is something entirely different... it is two people vying for the same 'prize'. In this case a man. One woman already has him. Another takes cracks at him. A wife cannot 'compete' with someone she doesn't even know exists and... when she learns the OW exists... it is never competition. It is usually a demand that their spouse either *hits or gets off the pot and, if it comes down to it, a demand that the other woman find some other sort of recreation or means of financial support. In my case I told the OW to back off and would have cleaned her clock if she didn't obey... She crawled back under the rock she came out of.

 

And yes, MistyK, I was inferior to the women, the wives, of these men in every way a woman can be a woman. I was using their husbands like a boyfriend without any regard for them whatsoever. I never wanted them to leave their spouses and never... ever... discussed it. I was a free spirit but I was a selfish bimbo. The wives stood by these guys and they deserved better than for me to take anything from them.

 

And as for the sex twice... maybe it was just plain lousy and not worth the gas money to go back for thirds.

 

For the record, I've never 'competed' with any woman. When I found out he dropped his shorts and it was for someone other than me I laid down the law to him and her. Period. I don't take seconds and I don't take any crap from anyone.

 

If I have to live in reality I want company.

[LaGazelle]

Could either of you please supply references / details of these alleged studies? Those of us who are qualified and practising social researchers would be very interested in the details, particularly the methodology, sampling and research design. What you ask, and who you ask it of, determines what you will find.

 

If you're asking MMs who had As but chose to remain in / return to their Ms after the A, there is a HIGH PROBABILITY that they will say the OW was "lesser" than their W (in whatever respect matters to them) because, after all, they chose to remain with the W. OTOH, if you're asking MMs who dumped the BW and married the OW, of coure they'll say the OW was "better" than the W, because, hey, they chose to be with her. That much is not rocket science.

 

.

 

Well, you could just look it up yourself, but here is start to get you going: http://www.brainandevolution.blogspot.com/2007/05/mate-poaching-how-rivals-intend-to.html. It is just a summary, but there should be links to the research questionnaries and methodology as well - if I recall correctly, the conclusions are based on a test of c. 105 variables, which underpinning the phenomenon of mating strategies employed to secure normally unattainable mating opportunities.

 

Re MM who leave their wives and marry the OW - I think you know the facts on that/what the stats indicate. Indeed even from the sample available here on LS, you and GEL appear to be 2 of the "lucky" few. Now, that is neither rocket science, nor neurosurgery.