Who is Trading Down when both Married??

[foreal]

I have heard that the married person 'trades down' when they select in an A partner. (looks or intellect or financially or status, etc)

 

But what if BOTH partners in the A are married?

 

Who is trading down if the are both married?

 

Is that a Double Downer?!!

[Thaddeus]

Who is trading down if the are both married?

 

Is that a Double Downer?!!

No, it's just stupid.

[hopesndreams]

When both are married then 2 families get destroyed. They both destroy each others families. What a lovely couple they will make.

[delajoonal]

foreal...i know what you are saying..

 

as i guess IT is all in the eye of the beholder or situation as it may be?

 

my case, my H had an online EA..a few weeks..i found out who she was, etc...

 

and RUFF! yes, i was soooo embarrassed that my H picked THIS particular OW...

 

so, if we are going off of looks, YES , my H traded down..heck i will even post pics of both of us..you decide..LOL

 

now, hopes...you are right...the more serious side..YES, this ugly OW and MY H, destroyed 2 families...and OW had small children...mine is an adult grown and off on his own..BUT don't think THIS mess did not affect my son as well..

 

anyway...so there are 2 ways to see it..

 

serious...the destruction, NO matter what the hell they look like...

and/or

taking it as it is...

she/he is ugly.....place ur own thoughts here.

[foreal]

Thanks Deloojanal

 

I posted this in the OW/OM forum and mostly got hammered, except by 2sure (thank you 2sure)..I was really wondering from the MOW's POV.....but over in the other forum my post came off as rude...but it was/is a serious question.

[Owl]

Well, you've got to consider that you basically asked a bunch of men and women why someone "traded down" to be with them, specifically. Easy to understand why that would have offended them when you look at it from their viewpoint.

 

No one wants to be considered as a "step down". Asking this question on that forum was undoubtedly pretty insulting to most of the OW/OM who read it.

 

I don't buy the "trade down" concept in general. No one 'wants' to "trade down". They're always thinking that they're going for "equal or better".

 

Asking who was worse in the situation you describe doesn't seem to make a lot of sense either, when you think about it. How could anyone possibly make that kind of determination given the very general circumstance you posted? There's no way to guess on something like that, nor does it really have any impact on someone's specific situation when you get down to it.

[silktricks]

That's easy. They both are. Both are trading faithful spouses for cheaters.

[foreal]

I hear you Owl...I had just read that so many times (the trading up/down thing) and could not wrap my head around it----so I posted the question to help me understand it...and although I offended people, I did not mean to, but their answers helped me, and hopefully helped others as well.....I could not understand it for good reason!

 

you are right, owl, nobody trades up or down-

 

After reading the responses in this forum and over in OW/OM I think I have a better understanding of where this idea comes from (then again, I could be totally off and I am sure the good folks here will let me know if so):

 

I think the idea comes from a person's need to feel better about themselves, by tearing down another person..which is NEVER a good way to go about building (or rebuilding) self esteem....a person's self worth is often so low after the A is revealed, it is almost a primal reaction in order to 'survive' psychologically- 'the best defense is a good offense' kinda thing...

 

I think we all (OW/OM/ BS, WS etc) are just wanting and looking to be loved...unless as 2sure said over in the other forum you are a serial cheater, then that is a whole other ballgame...

[Dexter Morgan]

I have heard that the married person 'trades down' when they select in an A partner. (looks or intellect or financially or status, etc)

 

I'm sure in some cases that is true....but it really doesn't matter. I feel any cheater trades up since anyone is better than themselves.

 

But one thing is for sure, if one married partner is a cheater, and the marriage ends, then ANYONE is better than the soon to be departed WS.

 

 

But what if BOTH partners in the A are married?

 

then they both suck, are made for each other, and can help save 2 other people in the world by being together....until they end up cheating on each other.

[Gamine]

I hear you Owl...I had just read that so many times (the trading up/down thing) and could not wrap my head around it----so I posted the question to help me understand it...and although I offended people, I did not mean to, but their answers helped me, and hopefully helped others as well.....I could not understand it for good reason!

 

you are right, owl, nobody trades up or down-

 

After reading the responses in this forum and over in OW/OM I think I have a better understanding of where this idea comes from (then again, I could be totally off and I am sure the good folks here will let me know if so):

 

I think the idea comes from a person's need to feel better about themselves, by tearing down another person..which is NEVER a good way to go about building (or rebuilding) self esteem....a person's self worth is often so low after the A is revealed, it is almost a primal reaction in order to 'survive' psychologically- 'the best defense is a good offense' kinda thing...

 

I think we all (OW/OM/ BS, WS etc) are just wanting and looking to be loved...unless as 2sure said over in the other forum you are a serial cheater, then that is a whole other ballgame...

 

 

There have actually been studies on this and yes, often (more often than not) the AP is less attractive, less educated, less successful, less charming... etc... than the spouse. In my case it was an irrefutable fact. I was shocked at what she looked like and couldn't believe my eyes when I saw her photographs.

 

There are actually psychological studies on why the MP goes with someone less attractive than their spouse. It has to do with control.

 

Now, it is either a double trade down when there are two MP cheating together... or one trading down convincing the other they are the cat's meow to get what they want. In the case of my husband's MW, she was trying to leave her husband for a long, long, time but due to the fact that she was poor and uneducated she couldn't support herself. Hence, her looking him up on the internet... and him seizing the opportunity. Basically, she offered sex on a platter hoping for a paycheck. So, she went looking for a replacement husband and thought mine would do just fine. Mate poaching here....

[foreal]

There have actually been studies on this and yes, often (more often than not) the AP is less attractive, less educated, less successful, less charming... etc... than the spouse. In my case it was an irrefutable fact. I was shocked at what she looked like and couldn't believe my eyes when I saw her photographs.

 

There are actually psychological studies on why the MP goes with someone less attractive than their spouse. It has to do with control.

 

Now, it is either a double trade down when there are two MP cheating together... or one trading down convincing the other they are the cat's meow to get what they want. In the case of my husband's MW, she was trying to leave her husband for a long, long, time but due to the fact that she was poor and uneducated she couldn't support herself. Hence, her looking him up on the internet... and him seizing the opportunity. Basically, she offered sex on a platter hoping for a paycheck. So, she went looking for a replacement husband and thought mine would do just fine. Mate poaching here....

 

Thank you so much Gamine! You make sense...it is interesting how the OWs are convinced they are a trade up for the MM.

 

And it makes me wonder: unless OW knows the BW, has seen her, spoken with her etc, how would they really know her looks, intellect etc?..all they have to go on is what the MM tells them....much like many BSs only have what their unfaithful spouse reveals to them.

 

And now that I have thought more about it, yea, my H traded down in the looks and brains dept---she made it clear (omg her texts were so pathetic and needy) her ass was his for the taking, anytime, any place...

 

but my former friend (the MOW) traded down, I think, with my H financially (not by much though, but enough to curtail her over the top high maintenance lifestyle- she could only get her nails done every other week if she were married to my H whereas she gets them done weekly now:rolleyes:)...

 

I think my H was looking for sex and companionship and she was looking for true love (and another wallet to pay her way)....she'd told me once how lucky I was to "have such a kind and caring H who was also so hot!" (Gawd, how stupid was I not to see that red flag!?)

 

She totally wanted my life and made it clear to my H (thru her texts that I read) that she was ready to leave her M for him. Thank god I never had to read a text from him reciprocating that (of course he could have said it to her in person, while Fing of course)...

 

In any case, "mate poaching"? My God what kind of screwed up childhood/issues does a woman like that have to have to be this way? Oh wait I know!!!! B/c she told me, and yea, what a mess she is...wish I had not felt so sorry for her and included her in my life..lesson learned, albeit too late...

[delajoonal]

again, Gamine...your words are right on spot!

hmm...i am going to have to check back and read more of your posts, as i really like the way your write and you not only post from the heart, but from and educated stand point as well...

in this case, the 'trading down' myth...really isn't a myth at all..

you are absolutely right...it is a fact and studies have been done and there are a few reasons, from what i have read, WHY the MP in A do this...

one is the guilt...they truly do not believe, either conscious or ;unconsciously, that they deserve anyone better than the spouse they are currenly cheating on...

be it looks, education, net worth, etc...

from what i have read, and i do ALOT of reading, it seems the looks issue is the one that wins every time.

 

i have also experienced this first hand, with friends and family in these situations...over the years, before my own separation, i would see these people going thru the sep. or divorce crisis, and end up seeing their NEW OW or OM, and woof...everytime...i was astounded at one trade down recently..a neighbor, married for 22 years, and the H left the W for i am telling you, we were all just in shock when we saw the OW he chose...anyway...so this is from mpov and my experiences only. and i a stated before my own experience with the OW online EA my H chose...really blew me away...for many reasons...anyway..

 

others may have other opinions etc.

 

and by the by foreal...i think this was a good question/topic...i just can't figure out why some members get so darn upset..if they don't like the question/topic/thread, then they should move on..and let us that are interested, indulge, get an education on the subject, share our thoughts, opinions, etc...without being trampled on...

LS is NOT about judging...just a reminder all..K:)

have a great nite everyone!

[Gamine]

again, Gamine...your words are right on spot!

hmm...i am going to have to check back and read more of your posts, as i really like the way your write and you not only post from the heart, but from and educated stand point as well...

in this case, the 'trading down' myth...really isn't a myth at all..

you are absolutely right...it is a fact and studies have been done and there are a few reasons, from what i have read, WHY the MP in A do this...

one is the guilt...they truly do not believe, either conscious or ;unconsciously, that they deserve anyone better than the spouse they are currenly cheating on...

be it looks, education, net worth, etc...

from what i have read, and i do ALOT of reading, it seems the looks issue is the one that wins every time.

 

i have also experienced this first hand, with friends and family in these situations...over the years, before my own separation, i would see these people going thru the sep. or divorce crisis, and end up seeing their NEW OW or OM, and woof...everytime...i was astounded at one trade down recently..a neighbor, married for 22 years, and the H left the W for i am telling you, we were all just in shock when we saw the OW he chose...anyway...so this is from mpov and my experiences only. and i a stated before my own experience with the OW online EA my H chose...really blew me away...for many reasons...anyway..

 

others may have other opinions etc.

 

and by the by foreal...i think this was a good question/topic...i just can't figure out why some members get so darn upset..if they don't like the question/topic/thread, then they should move on..and let us that are interested, indulge, get an education on the subject, share our thoughts, opinions, etc...without being trampled on...

LS is NOT about judging...just a reminder all..K:)

have a great nite everyone!

 

 

Hey! Yes, there have been studies on the 'trade down' in choosing affair partners. You are totally on target with the psychological and emotional basis for the trade down as well. The need to be a stud. As I recall, the studies were done on men selecting affair partners who were less than their wives. I don't remember if I've ever seen anything written on the women choosing less in an affair partner. In my case the MOW was looking for a paycheck and frankly... I couldn't believe that anyone would be such a slut at the age of 48 and a grandmother to boot. She literally offered sex on a platter. My husband said she became the equivalent of porn. I asked him what they would talk about. He said she talked mostly about sex acts and what she would do to him in great detail. She wanted a way out of her marriage. Oh, and to beat all, this psycho actually lamented on how jealous she was of the husbandly things he would do for me... grilling him on what he did/gifts on Valentine's day stating that these things really belonged to her. And, this is before they even slept together. Mate poaching at its finest in my opinion. He'd tell her that I had been yelling at him for something... and, of course, her feedback was... "Oh, I'd never yell at you for that... I think it is just fine...you are so wonderful..."

 

The MM choose downward (backed by studies) for the reasons you have stated. They can feel in control and superior... which is part of the big ego boost.

[LaGazelle]

Thank you so much Gamine! You make sense...it is interesting how the OWs are convinced they are a trade up for the MM.

 

And it makes me wonder: unless OW knows the BW, has seen her, spoken with her etc, how would they really know her looks, intellect etc?..all they have to go on is what the MM tells them....much like many BSs only have what their unfaithful spouse reveals to them.

 

And now that I have thought more about it, yea, my H traded down in the looks and brains dept---she made it clear (omg her texts were so pathetic and needy) her ass was his for the taking, anytime, any place...

 

but my former friend (the MOW) traded down, I think, with my H financially (not by much though, but enough to curtail her over the top high maintenance lifestyle- she could only get her nails done every other week if she were married to my H whereas she gets them done weekly now:rolleyes:)...

 

I think my H was looking for sex and companionship and she was looking for true love (and another wallet to pay her way)....she'd told me once how lucky I was to "have such a kind and caring H who was also so hot!" (Gawd, how stupid was I not to see that red flag!?)

 

She totally wanted my life and made it clear to my H (thru her texts that I read) that she was ready to leave her M for him. Thank god I never had to read a text from him reciprocating that (of course he could have said it to her in person, while Fing of course)...

 

In any case, "mate poaching"? My God what kind of screwed up childhood/issues does a woman like that have to have to be this way? Oh wait I know!!!! B/c she told me, and yea, what a mess she is...wish I had not felt so sorry for her and included her in my life..lesson learned, albeit too late...

 

Not too late for the next time you may be faced with the same red flags when another one of this "special breed" of woman attempts to trade up to your H, using typical mate poaching techniques!

 

While some OW may genuinely be manipulated and tricked into their situation and are initally unaware that their "soul mate" is a MM, a huge number seem to fall into the category of offering a "complementary starter" in the hope that the MM will fall for the main course and dessert!

[LaGazelle]

Hi Foreal. Yes, mate poaching is the order of the day for many of the OW (and some OM) as well. But the trading down seems to be a thing the men do. After all, a needy woman who is feeling poorly about herself or her situation and with no morals is willing to do just about anything to secure the situation she observes she wants. In your case your husband was, in her eyes, a catch... and a catch she wanted.

 

If you really think about it you have got to wonder why a woman who has it 'going on' would need to be so shallow and slutty... almost begging to be number one. The OW in the other forum respond to this topic in an amazing way. They, of course, object wholeheartedly stating they are the traded up version. But when you read their posts they are always talking about feeling crappy over being 'second best' or 'him choosing the wife" over them. If it isn't a competition, which they claim it is not, then why the feelings of being second best? Furthermore, whenever they describe their relationships with their "MM" (oh make me sick) it is always how they had such amazing 'chemistry'. Many of the BS's have had the same experience... needy women offering sex on a platter who beg for attention and affection. How can a person who has it 'going on' come from that point of view? If they really have it together you and I both know they wouldn't be using sex like it is listed on a Chinese menu. Two from column A and three form column B. And, it never ceases to amaze me how many of these women (especially the married ones) are so whorish. I mean... what on earth had to happen to someone for them to become this way? It certainly doesn't sound like a healthy person, does it?

 

Gamine!! Hilariously said, and so so true! It never ceases to amaze me how these fantastic women can only experience "amazing chemistry" (they all use this stock phrase) with MM who don't value them. :lmao::lmao:

[OFGnomore]

In my situation, my xMM was definitely a trade down. Physically, sexually, etc. How did he woo me then? Through crazy persual and attention at a time things weren't working well in my M. But I think a lot of the this "trade down" stuff is balm for BSs. I mean look at that baseball player that ran off with Giselle? As Owl and Dex said it truly doesn't matter. The more I live through reconcilation and recovery, the less I rely on "stats" and go by what's true in my "situation".

 

And FTR, xMM's W met me a party during the A. Went home and told him that I was 'really pretty'. So if this stuff really matters, than her recovery would be worse? I'm also about 10 years younger, thinner. The difference in our looks is very obvious. --- But in the end, me and xMM are BOTH cheaters and in my book that has more impact that stupid superficial stuff. Again, distracting "balm" that really has no impact on what really matters in reconciling a marriage IMO.

[Gamine]

I'm sorry but going for Giselle would be a trade down if the wife of the man was kind hearted and faithful. Bottom line... a 400 lb. woman can be more beautiful than a 'pretty, thin girl' if her heart is beautiful. And there is nothing more beautiful than a kind soul.

 

Being pursued sexually by a man is not a complement.

[OFGnomore]

I'm sorry but going for Giselle would be a trade down if the wife of the man was kind hearted and faithful. Bottom line... a 400 lb. woman can be more beautiful than a 'pretty, thin girl' if her heart is beautiful. And there is nothing more beautiful than a kind soul.

 

Being pursued sexually by a man is not a complement.

 

Then we agree. And what the trade down theory emcompasses 'cause I read about it too online is primarily really superficial stuff. The BH version, would be larger penis, bank account, etc. The point is inner character is what counts and BSs either male or female stunt their healing with worrying about am I more attractive, charming --- the superficial stuff. Let me reframe, my BH/a BW can take extreme solace, comfort and esteem knowing that they stayed true to their vows and didn't engaged in betrayal. Now as a FWW, I my rebuild my esteem, my knowing that I confessed to my H, EVERYTHING, no pulling teeth with the truth. And doing right, going forward by honoring my H and my children.

 

And I think far too many BWs let their WHs off the hook to easily upon disclosure of an A by excusing their behavior as oh it was "just sex". Maybe I'm grumpy because my H held me accountable to the max (he kicked my *ss emotionally and I deserved it) I think the financial card is one WHs play all the time when they choose to step out, they "know" it's not a easy for a woman to just walk out. It's such an insult to guys who keep their zippers up, like my H, and a handful of men on this board.

 

It's the cheating men who are the exception NOT the rule.

[OWoman]

And it makes me wonder: unless OW knows the BW, has seen her, spoken with her etc, how would they really know her looks, intellect etc?..all they have to go on is what the MM tells them....

 

Much info is in the public domain - there are pictures on websites, social networking sites, friends in common, etc. Unless someone lives under a rock, it's pretty easy to find out quite a bit about them. In my case, the BW, MM and I all worked int he same field. There were many points of intersection. He told me nothing about her, but I'd heard from plenty of other people EVEN BEFORE I GOT INVOLVED WITH HIM how awful she was, how no one could work with her, how she took out her low self-esteem problems by humiliating others (including her H) in public, how much she drank and how badly she behaved when drunk, how badly the drink was affecting her looks and her weight, how they couldn't understand how someone "nice" like him could stay M to her.... The info was all out there. The pictures were everywhere. But the stories I heard from his family and friends once I got together with him .

 

The MM choose downward (backed by studies) for the reasons you have stated. They can feel in control and superior... which is part of the big ego boost.

 

Mine wanted someone he could respect, someone he could relate to as an equal. He had no need for control as he had plenty of that in the workplace - but he had a huge need for mutual respect and companionship, and a need to escape fragile egos and low self esteem.

 

The OW in the other forum respond to this topic in an amazing way. They, of course, object wholeheartedly stating they are the traded up version. But when you read their posts they are always talking about feeling crappy over being 'second best' or 'him choosing the wife" over them.

 

Mine didn't - he dumped her for me. And I was NEVER second best.

[foreal]

Much info is in the public domain - there are pictures on websites, social networking sites, friends in common, etc. Unless someone lives under a rock, it's pretty easy to find out quite a bit about them. In my case, the BW, MM and I all worked int he same field. There were many points of intersection. He told me nothing about her, but I'd heard from plenty of other people EVEN BEFORE I GOT INVOLVED WITH HIM how awful she was, how no one could work with her, how she took out her low self-esteem problems by humiliating others (including her H) in public, how much she drank and how badly she behaved when drunk, how badly the drink was affecting her looks and her weight, how they couldn't understand how someone "nice" like him could stay M to her.... The info was all out there. The pictures were everywhere. But the stories I heard from his family and friends once I got together with him .

 

 

 

Mine wanted someone he could respect, someone he could relate to as an equal. He had no need for control as he had plenty of that in the workplace - but he had a huge need for mutual respect and companionship, and a need to escape fragile egos and low self esteem.

 

 

 

Mine didn't - he dumped her for me. And I was NEVER second best.

 

OWOMAN, So your MM is now divorced from wife #1 and now you two are married?

[OWoman]

OWOMAN, So your MM is now divorced from wife #1 and now you two are married?

 

Yes, that's correct.

[foreal]

wow! I just read the posts from this topic in the OW forum....LS closed it...it remionds me of the texts I read from my H's MOW..she would get reallyupset when he would do things with me, in one she said, "I can't believe you'd spend time with her that way when you could be with me!" DUHHH!

 

the idea of it being a 'competition'???..hmmm...perhaps jealousy and envy are being confused?

 

Jealousy is when you are afraid or want to protect what is already yours: A BS is jealous of the OW once she learns of her b/c OW is trying to take what she already has: her H.

 

Envy is when you want something someone else has: The OW envies the W b/c the W (usually) has first dibs on the H and the OW wants what is not hers.

 

I can see being young and naive and getting involved with a MM...but once a woman reaches a level of maturity, by say age 25-27 or so, for them to knowingly involve themselves with a MM says more about them than they realize...sad sad sad.

 

And yes, bring on the "I am the happiest OW on the planet!!" sure you are.

[OWoman]

I tried to respond on the other thread where you gave me the reference, but that thread's been locked now, so forgive the cross-posting of my replying here.

 

Firstly, thanks for the link - a lot quicker than struggling with library databases and restricted journal access.

 

However, the link wasn't about "trading down" - nor was that mentioned in any of the research they cited - but on strategies employed in mate poaching by those wishing to be poached, and in keeping the mate poaching disguised from the BS and the wider community. So, if you do have any links to the "trading down" studies, I'd be grateful

 

Meantime, the "mate poaching" study was very interesting (despite its obvious limitations, acknowledged by the authors) but going into that would be too much of a t/j so I'll start a separate thread...

 

Oops sorry it was La Gazelle and not Gamine that gave me the link. Apologies!

[foreal]

Yes, that's correct.

 

 

How long have you been married? How long after the D did you two get married?

 

And do you think ExW wants her H back? Or maybe she never really wanted him? (from your description she did not sound like a very happy person in general and did not seem to value her H or much of anyone for that matter).

 

I appreciate your feedback!!

[Gamine]

I tried to respond on the other thread where you gave me the reference, but that thread's been locked now, so forgive the cross-posting of my replying here.

 

Firstly, thanks for the link - a lot quicker than struggling with library databases and restricted journal access.

 

However, the link wasn't about "trading down" - nor was that mentioned in any of the research they cited - but on strategies employed in mate poaching by those wishing to be poached, and in keeping the mate poaching disguised from the BS and the wider community. So, if you do have any links to the "trading down" studies, I'd be grateful

 

Meantime, the "mate poaching" study was very interesting (despite its obvious limitations, acknowledged by the authors) but going into that would be too much of a t/j so I'll start a separate thread...

 

 

My intro to the 'trading down' first came when I did a google search inquiring why a man would cheat with a woman who was less attractive than their spouse. What I found surprised me. I, logically, could only understand 'trading up', or, in other words... being with someone who has a trait or characteristic more desirable than their current spouse.

 

I operated under the belief that to lure a man out of a marriage there had to be something there. Love, a connection, chemistry, looks, intelligence, sense of humor... an undeniable trait or interaction that was special. From what you have shared it is clear that your husband's ex-wife was not firing on all cylinders and by all accounts perhaps wasn't capable of sustaining a healthy relationship with anyone let alone a spouse.

 

However, I read a very interesting article on men and cheating and it surprised me. That they are with the OP for how they make THEM FEEL. And that often the choice for the more 'desperate' or vulnerable woman proved a better prospect because (and get this) they are more grateful for the attention and will make him feel like a king.

 

When interrogating my husband he revealed that it was for the sex. Go to his IC and pose the question and the psychologist's response? People in affairs will do whatever they need to get what they want. If it is approval, love, sex, etc... you name it. We are wired that way as human beings... however for this sort of individual the desire exists and then the affair fills it.

 

In an 'organic' or natural relationship, the people make a connection and the need/desire develops. And this is possible in affairs. However, it is cited to be more common for the void to first exist in the MP with the affair to fill the void.

 

For middle aged men... well, need I elaborate?