LaGazelle Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 I think there is a tendency to assign qualities to an affair partner that do not exist. In general, these folks do not consider the effects on their actions toward the betrayed or the family. I know this is difficult to understand for peole that would not have an affair. But, they are a very different breed of cat, hopefully, to be avoided in one's personal life. I have acquaintences that are cheaters and they do not display integrity or empathy in other areas of their lives , either. Reggie, very well said. I read some research on "Mate Poaching" and the constistency of character traits for cheaters and APs, was unbelievable. Of course, there are always exceptions to every rule, but that, and statistical discrepancy aside, people involved in or pursuing affairs were consistently found to be less likely to have empathy, compassion, a pang of conscience/guilt, exercise what most would consider normal boundaries etc. This was found to be true for every area of their lives, and was consistent whether the tendencies were self-identified, identified by another person, or identifed by the researchers through "stealth" questioning. In some cases these tendencies were temporary due to a vulnerability in the AP's or WS' life, but usually not. Nevertheless, all the research points to a general view that one cannot expect what would usually be considered a "normal" response when reasoning with WSs and OPs who pursue affairs. Which begs the question...why bother make someone aware of what they've done to contribute to your pain, if they are unlikely to be able to empathise or understand? Or even worse, why make them aware when they might get satisfaction from the confirmation that they have been able to cause pain?
OFGnomore Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 Reggie, very well said. people involved in or pursuing affairs were consistently found to be less likely to have empathy, compassion, a pang of conscience/guilt, exercise what most would consider normal boundaries etc. This was found to be true for every area of their lives, and was consistent whether the tendencies were self-identified, identified by another person, or identifed by the researchers through "stealth" questioning. In some cases these tendencies were temporary due to a vulnerability in the AP's or WS' life, but usually not. Nevertheless, all the research points to a general view that one cannot expect what would usually be considered a "normal" response when reasoning with WSs and OPs who pursue affairs. Which begs the question...why bother make someone aware of what they've done to contribute to your pain, if they are unlikely to be able to empathise or understand? Or even worse, why make them aware when they might get satisfaction from the confirmation that they have been able to cause pain? These traits apply to the man you're married too the OW is physically out of your life. AEH, there will come a time when you have to realize that your WH was in a year affair that he did not confess. I think you undermine his emotional involvement with his affair partner otherwise, it would have been a ONS, and your H told his xOP that he loved her. And true, healing and reconcilation will come when you acknowlege that your H stepped out physically and emotionally. I think Owl can comment about the BSs ability to accept and heal from the emotional betrayal and his assesment about your H going through withdrawal is spot on IMO. Doesn't mean he won't get past the A or the A partner was meant for him but in order to disclosure fully what happened it has to be dealt with. I'm 8 months out and my H are I just able to scratch the emotional involvment. xMM brought me to his home, intro'd me to his children, work collegues, friends. Offered his money to invest in my business. H read the emails xMM wrote. H is the one who first said, xMM loved you! xMM didn't end the A, I did. I'm sure xMM is downplaying the emotional involvement to his W but that is IMO continued betrayal and won't lead to a better M because it doesn't give the BS the full scope of what the WS was getting out of the affair and not getting in the M. My point is I think your healing will be slowed if not complete until you deal with the full scope of what happened. Physical and emotional betrayal. It takes time, give yourself that. I see you cycling through normal emotions which IMO is more assuring that your first posts thanking the OW for making your marriage better. And IMO, you'll do yourself a huge service by mitigating additional damage by confronting the OW. She's really not your problem anymore.
Gamine Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 My husband was away on business for a couple of days and I was plagued with a nagging feeling that there was something terribly wrong going on. So, I carefully skimmed through the internet history on his PC and all of a sudden a previously unknown yahoo email account reveals itself. Well, I followed the rabbit hole all the way down into the abyss and learned that a guy who I believed was a boy scout had become one screwed up individual. He was 'courting' three women. Sending emails to an ex-wife, ex-girlfriend, and a waitress who he met at a golf resort... he was to be journeying back to. Not only did his behavior come as a total shock, but the behavior of the 'women' involved totally blew me away. They seemed pitiful to me. So incredibly needy in their desire for female affirmation that they'd literally do anything for it. The waitress sent photos of herself in a bikini and 'naughty nurse' costume promising golfing and drinks. The ex-wife (divorced for over 16 years at the time) so anxious to share 'I love you's' and daily exchanges. And, the ex-girlfriend who swore up and down that he was her 'be all and end all' with her most generous photos of herself. She lives several hundred miles away from us, is married with a grandchild. He slept with her twice. I remember looking at the photos of the ex-girlfriend thinking they had to be photos of an aunt or someone else. I simply could not 'process' that the mess of a woman in the photos (greasy skin, overweight, hillbilly) was actually the very same woman he was declaring as gorgeous. It took me at least an hour of going back through all of the messages for it to finally sink in. It was in fact this woman and I couldn't believe my eyes. After all, I was the one who always stopped traffic, was a total sweetheart, kind and supportive wife. I was/is attractive outwardly as well as inwardly... and here was this piggy, unattractive mess gloating on his complements. I was horrified to say the least. The day after learning all of this and after giving my husband the reaming of his life when he returned home, I emailed her and basically told her that I'd 'rain a storm of terror over her head that would make her country girl head spin'. Basically, politely telling her I'd kick her ass if she ever came around my husband again. Mind you, at this point I wasn't even sure I wanted him or the marriage any longer... but what I did know was that he was extremely screwed up and that he needed help. I remember walking into the first session with an IC for him informing the psychiatrist that I wasn't there to save a marriage... but to save him. Once he's okay I'll probably decide to be on my way... but the jury was still out. I did not want to make any hasty decisions. I went on to contact the ex-wife and basically told her the same thing... looked her up and saw that she was screwed up. Had been involved with a MM and stole him from a wife of 36 yrs. and moved to Alaska. Still after remarrying this guy, keeps my husband's last name. A real sicko. Fortunately they had no children. The waitress didn't bother me one bit. She was the most attractive of the bunch but she didn't know he was married. He 'pretended' he was separated. I held nothing against her whatsoever. Only him in this dynamic. The others? I totally held them accountable AS WELL AS HIM. I don't give two shakes whether he was the one who had the 'commitment' to me or not. These other two were messing around with my life vis-a-vis my husband and as far as I was concerned I would have knocked their blocks off if I ever ran into either one of them. God made me a woman otherwise I would have been in jail... my feminine ideals tempered my hostilities. If I had met face to face with them someone would have had a black eye and it wouldn't have been me. The one who slept with my husband was also married as I have stated earlier. This grossed me out to no end. She had done this sort of thing previously in other marriages and I was later to learn that one of these folks was my very own husband 15 years earlier. How gross is that? He admitted he was insane and went for professional help. He has been working to 'make this up to me' and thanks me for saving him from making toilet paper out of his life. The other married women... as far as I am concerned... are trash and there is nothing that would ever come out of either one of their mouths worth my time. I cannot imagine doing what they did. Where is their integrity as women? As people? I wouldn't soil my mind with their thoughts. When the ex-girlfriend tried to contact my husband by calling his brother (and did me the big 'favor' by airing the dirty laundry to him) she had the audacity to complain that I had emailed her basically telling her where to go. I saw her a chicken. If their 'love' was at all real on her part she would have come clean. I saw her as nothing but a middle aged twisted and pathetic horny old woman. I also wondered where a woman like this would wind up. He, of course, communicated NC after I found out and followed that (months later) with a registered letter to her telling her the 'truth' regarding his actual feelings for her... that in fact what he had told her were just lies to manipulate her. I was glad that he had done so. Firstly, because he had to own up to the immorality of such an act; and secondly to put an end to any delusions on her behalf. I suppose contacting her for purposes of a 'meeting' or phone communication might have revealed facts regarding what took place and it may have spared me the long drawn out 'trickle truth' but in hindsight I am glad that I never did either. Anything that would come out of her mouth wasn't worth my time. It took a while but she eventually became a non-entity to me... just a sad account of what can happen to women when they think of themselves in only sexual terms. In the end I pitied all of them... including my husband for such poor conduct. And, it has taken over a year for me to consider anything that comes out of my husband's mouth worth listening to. So, sometimes something of value can only come from someone of value. In this case, the OW has turned her life into toilet paper and perhaps has nothing to add to the equation except a toilet paper point of view... which certainly will not be enlightening or helpful to you. If you do happen to catch a glimpse of her... I would be willing to guarantee that you will be surprised that she isn't what you would think she'd be. I read articles on infidelity and the stats show that the overwhelming majority of men go for women who are well below the station, education and looks of their wives.... a fact that is twisted and spun on the OW/OM forums.... who portray the BW as the sexless, unattractive, inattentive shrew who doesn't care about their husband at all and with whom he doesn't have any sexual intimacy. This always gets a chuckle of out me. The OMW who he slept with was very interested in how I looked... as she checked me out on my website. How that didn't result in her cowering and running away I'll never know. But in the end I suppose my husband was better than a dirty movie and a vibrator. The issue of mate poaching is a very real one. They imagine inserting themselves into a dynamic where they are the new wife and the poor little misunderstood boy is forced to live with a bad mommy. Nothing that the OW could ever say would be coming from a point of integrity, so garnering anything from her would be a waste of oxygen and your time.
2sure Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 Gamine!! I always appreciate your posts and feel a connection to them because you , with raw honesty, say the things I feel but struggle to verbalize. My H, like yours, hooked up with other womEn not because there was anything wring with me or my relationship with him but because he had a problem. His contact with these women was not based on his attraction to them so much as their attraction to him. It was selfish. It was narcissist. Regretfully, I have been OW in the past. But my experiences as such helped me to realize that the problem was HIS. That I did not need to feel threatened or insecure based on OW. Still, like you said...I did contact all of them. My intent was to tell them that they were dealing with ME up front now and that their risks had considerably increased. That from this point on, I would it take it personally. As to the mate poaching, it was a surprising fact for me to find out. When I was an OW, it never ever crossed my mind to "take" MM away from his marriage. That was the deal, and I thought thats the way it was for most. Not so - In fact after my H's infidelites...we found that one woman in particular was impressed with who/how I was, and considered if I had him...he must be worth having. Thats the one that pissed me off the most.
delajoonal Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 GAMINE....right ON!!!!! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! From all us W that have been betrayed, cheated on, humilitiated, demonized..and all the ones that are in IT and don't know it yet... thank you! Awsome post!!! YES!!
silktricks Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 Nothing that the OW could ever say would be coming from a point of integrity, so garnering anything from her would be a waste of oxygen and your time. Thank-you for putting my thoughts into your words!!! Perfect!
Athena Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 My H, like yours, hooked up with other womEn not because there was anything wring with me or my relationship with him but because he had a problem. His contact with these women was not based on his attraction to them so much as their attraction to him. It was selfish. It was narcissist. Ditto, ditto, ditto Of the 8 women my H slept with, I know what most of them looked like. The first was a neighbor in another country and which had happened years before... the second was a colleague of his who sat across from his desk. I went in to his job and sat with him and looked over at her... she was embarrassed and looked away. Nothing special about her... what I remember most was lots and lots of clumpy mascara on her, lol. Third one was his friends ex-fiance (a woman who the whole town "knew" in the biblical sense )... an attractive woman, but well past her prime... she was 18 years H's senior... she had a facelift which made her look plastic), next (fourth) was I guess the most attractive one -- fair haired blue eyed, his age, slim build. The Fifth was a very dumpy unattractive woman... seriously ugly in my opinion... but she was super bright and well educated and admired my H no end at work... called him "Master". Sixth was some Dane I never met nor saw her photo but he called her a 'girl' since she was in her early 30's and he was in his mid 40's. Seventh was a Korean woman, average looking in every single way (I saw photos) but she absolutely adored him and looked up to him and fell madly in love with him. Eighth was some pretty young thing he picked up in a bar in Asia and slept with for two weeks (I saw a photo of her on his cell phone, which I deleted for him ). They were all attracted to him, so he slept with them -- what a gentleman. As for me contacting them -- I could have contacted most of them, but chose not to. Except for number 7... I phoned her last month, a whole year and a half after they had broken up. She had slept with my H for over a year while he was abroad and had stayed with him in his apartment. When he left her country they broke up, then two weeks later she started dating one of my H's friends. They are now engaged. I called her last month to tell her that I was divorcing my H and that she was the OW that was the last straw... she apologized to me and asked for forgiveness. At first I said no. But she continued to ask me to forgive her... she said she fell in love with H, and had tried several times to break it off with him but couldn't stay away from him. That she knew he loved me very much and had a family, so was unavailable to her. I asked her what would she feel if HER fiance cheated on her once they marry? She said she would die. She kept on saying "I'm so sorry, please forgive me". And so I did -- I said, "I forgive you". She then immediately asked me to forgive my H too, and not to divorce me... It was strange that she felt she could do that. I have not forgiven him and I will not drop my guard with him. I still intend on divorcing him. He had fair warning from me... he screwed around with several AP and I finally told him if he had one more affair that I WOULD divorce him, so he went out and had an 18 mth relationship with Ms Forgiveness... oh... just to put the cherry on the top, he finished up with a fling affair in March of this year... so much for his remorse. So yeah, I did contact OW, she apologized and I forgave her.
Author aeh Posted July 28, 2009 Author Posted July 28, 2009 Thank you all, and especially Gamine!! Wonderful post! Yes, you're right. I do think my H has played down the emotional part of it. He says it was just about the sex, he always said I was a great wife, mother, etc (obviously, I was the big elephant in the room...how could he have been saying great things about me when he was there with her? He tells me he just told her that we rarely had sex--which unfortunately was true). He says he told her he loved her because he felt "obligated" because she said it in the heat of sex and she always said it first, etc but he still said it. Not sure what I believe on that one..don't know if he loved her, but definitely feel there was more emotional involvement than what he had let on. He said he knows it sounds cold, but that it's true and that he will never back down on that one point...Hmmmmm You're right on not wasting time or breath on focusing on OW. I have made up my mind not to contact her. I do need to get to the bottom of the emotional involvement that was there though. How do I do this? We are going to MC and he does seem to open up there (maybe more than I do).
Gamine Posted July 29, 2009 Posted July 29, 2009 Thank you all, and especially Gamine!! Wonderful post! Yes, you're right. I do think my H has played down the emotional part of it. He says it was just about the sex, he always said I was a great wife, mother, etc (obviously, I was the big elephant in the room...how could he have been saying great things about me when he was there with her? He tells me he just told her that we rarely had sex--which unfortunately was true). He says he told her he loved her because he felt "obligated" because she said it in the heat of sex and she always said it first, etc but he still said it. Not sure what I believe on that one..don't know if he loved her, but definitely feel there was more emotional involvement than what he had let on. He said he knows it sounds cold, but that it's true and that he will never back down on that one point...Hmmmmm You're right on not wasting time or breath on focusing on OW. I have made up my mind not to contact her. I do need to get to the bottom of the emotional involvement that was there though. How do I do this? We are going to MC and he does seem to open up there (maybe more than I do). Aeh, I fixated on the emotional attachment with the OW he actually slept with to the point of emotional exhaustion. I honestly don't know which part of it was more exhausting... screaming at him or hating her. I read all of the 'love talk' emails between the two of them as well as the 'I love you's' to the ex-wife. I insisted and insisted that he truly had to love... at least the one he slept with. To beat it all, he said 'I love you' first and did so almost as soon as they began talking... before they slept together. I read and read and read about this phenomenon... and my husband's psychologist also explained... people in affairs will say anything to get what they want. Once again, Aeh, you've got to hear this... they will say whatever they need to say to get what they want. You must remember how it was as teenagers, right? High school boys telling girls they cared about them to get them into bed? We've all known about this conduct our whole lives... some say, 'boys will be boys'... but then add the women who cheat and do the same thing. This psychologist was adamant that often, if not always, the 'emotional' is not emotional at all... in fact there is an utter absence of 'feeling' in a true sense. They want the attention and the sex... along with the feelings the sex gives them. They love being adored. They want someone to be in love with them for their ego trip so they 'play' the person. Tell them you love them and you'll get them into bed. Sad but true. Tell them you love them and they'll adore you, worship you, emotionally 'baby' them... they get the adoration, sex, worshiping etc... all for the words. Men and women, it appears, both 'want to hear it'. You can read it on the OW/OM forums all of the time. No matter what is said to them they simply refuse... utterly refuse to believe it. They refuse to believe that it is said just to get what they want. My husband went so far as to tell the OMW that he never loved me and only loved her. That our 13 years together were a waste because every day he spent away from her was a waste. Imagine how pissed off and hurt I was over that one. The minute I found out about their little 'love fest' he dropped her, became cruel to her, and maintained for over a year that she meant nothing emotionally to him. How can that be?.... Well, apparently when people get in the affair mode 'fog' they are in love with themselves and no one else. It is also very, very, common that MM will lay the crock on these women... to get them to love them... get them to sleep with them... get them to adore them... get them to want them. They get off on it. All too often those on the other end of the narcissistic head trip 'believe' the love talk. Again, they are good play actors and could get anyone to buy their crap. Honestly, there was no effort on his part to continue with her and his psychologist backs up what he says regarding the absence of emotion. It is more about control and them getting off on a sort of head game. The sex is also rarely good. Oh, the one who they've played believes it is... but all too often for the player it is less about the quality of the sex than the mere fact that they are being 'bad'. The 'being bad' seems to be a major turn-on for the AP's on both sides. The one who cheats with them is the one who is delirious believing the horse crap... how much their "MM" loves them and the intensity of their chemistry is off the charts... Little do they know that most of these guys are just messing with them. The guys often just enjoying a woman who adores them... their egos filled... someone tells them they are the best in bed... you name it. I'd give a million bucks to get a gander at the photos of some of the women who post on the OW forum. I often hear their words and KNOW that they have to be hard up to buy the bull crap they buy... not to mention that every single one of them believes that they are the apple of their "MM's" eye... the best in bed... the only one he loves... he thinks they're beautiful, etc... And I sit back and wonder. How wonderful do you need to feel, anyway? I mean how wonderful could you possibly feel with a man ... with whom all you have is bull crap talk and sex? Who does the man do his living with? Who does he wake up with, talk with, pay his bills with, live with, make love with, share dinners out with, travel with, go to the movies with, snuggle on the couch with, celebrate his birthday and the holidays with? The wife, of course. He eats Thanksgiving dinner with his wife and emails the OW how much he wishes he were with her... but... the bottom line is... who is he with? It can be just about the sex and it took me a VERY, VERY long time to understand that. As sick and twisted as this sounds you almost have to see him as a perverted, over sexed teenage boy who will do or say whatever he needs to do or say to get what he wants. Please don't beat yourself up the way I did. The only person you are hurting is yourself in the end... because ultimately... and you have to trust me on this... sometimes they are lying their heads off when they say what they say to the OW. Even the ones who still see the OW after D'day. They have a hard time giving up the ego trip... not the woman. I hope my blabbering has helped spare you emotional pain over something that may very well be true... he didn't care about her. I bet he is telling you the truth here...
Gamine Posted July 29, 2009 Posted July 29, 2009 Ditto, ditto, ditto Of the 8 women my H slept with, I know what most of them looked like. The first was a neighbor in another country and which had happened years before... the second was a colleague of his who sat across from his desk. I went in to his job and sat with him and looked over at her... she was embarrassed and looked away. Nothing special about her... what I remember most was lots and lots of clumpy mascara on her, lol. Third one was his friends ex-fiance (a woman who the whole town "knew" in the biblical sense )... an attractive woman, but well past her prime... she was 18 years H's senior... she had a facelift which made her look plastic), next (fourth) was I guess the most attractive one -- fair haired blue eyed, his age, slim build. The Fifth was a very dumpy unattractive woman... seriously ugly in my opinion... but she was super bright and well educated and admired my H no end at work... called him "Master". Sixth was some Dane I never met nor saw her photo but he called her a 'girl' since she was in her early 30's and he was in his mid 40's. Seventh was a Korean woman, average looking in every single way (I saw photos) but she absolutely adored him and looked up to him and fell madly in love with him. Eighth was some pretty young thing he picked up in a bar in Asia and slept with for two weeks (I saw a photo of her on his cell phone, which I deleted for him ). They were all attracted to him, so he slept with them -- what a gentleman. As for me contacting them -- I could have contacted most of them, but chose not to. Except for number 7... I phoned her last month, a whole year and a half after they had broken up. She had slept with my H for over a year while he was abroad and had stayed with him in his apartment. When he left her country they broke up, then two weeks later she started dating one of my H's friends. They are now engaged. I called her last month to tell her that I was divorcing my H and that she was the OW that was the last straw... she apologized to me and asked for forgiveness. At first I said no. But she continued to ask me to forgive her... she said she fell in love with H, and had tried several times to break it off with him but couldn't stay away from him. That she knew he loved me very much and had a family, so was unavailable to her. I asked her what would she feel if HER fiance cheated on her once they marry? She said she would die. She kept on saying "I'm so sorry, please forgive me". And so I did -- I said, "I forgive you". She then immediately asked me to forgive my H too, and not to divorce me... It was strange that she felt she could do that. I have not forgiven him and I will not drop my guard with him. I still intend on divorcing him. He had fair warning from me... he screwed around with several AP and I finally told him if he had one more affair that I WOULD divorce him, so he went out and had an 18 mth relationship with Ms Forgiveness... oh... just to put the cherry on the top, he finished up with a fling affair in March of this year... so much for his remorse. So yeah, I did contact OW, she apologized and I forgave her. Athena, for what it's worth I think your husband is a jackass for hurting you. He probably lost the best thing in his life when he lost your heart. He is a total fool. My heart goes out to you for the pain this ass inflicted on you. If there is such thing as a 'karma bus' I'm guessing his is a comin' around the bend in spades. I hope you find true love from a man who deserves you.
Athena Posted July 29, 2009 Posted July 29, 2009 Athena, for what it's worth I think your husband is a jackass for hurting you. He probably lost the best thing in his life when he lost your heart. He is a total fool. My heart goes out to you for the pain this ass inflicted on you. If there is such thing as a 'karma bus' I'm guessing his is a comin' around the bend in spades. I hope you find true love from a man who deserves you. Hey Gamine, thank you so much for this post of yours... I was feeling so very lousy as I just posted on the thread "What's the most painful thing your spouse ever said to you about the OP" and I was feeling flooded with pain. So, now I come across this post of yours. Thank you for your warmth and your words...
bentnotbroken Posted July 29, 2009 Posted July 29, 2009 Athena, for what it's worth I think your husband is a jackass for hurting you. He probably lost the best thing in his life when he lost your heart. He is a total fool. My heart goes out to you for the pain this ass inflicted on you. If there is such thing as a 'karma bus' I'm guessing his is a comin' around the bend in spades. I hope you find true love from a man who deserves you. I agree 100%. He is king of the azzes. Crown, scepter, and throne. He doesn't need a court fool....he is one.
LaGazelle Posted July 29, 2009 Posted July 29, 2009 I remember looking at the photos of the ex-girlfriend thinking they had to be photos of an aunt or someone else. I simply could not 'process' that the mess of a woman in the photos (greasy skin, overweight, hillbilly) was actually the very same woman he was declaring as gorgeous. It took me at least an hour of going back through all of the messages for it to finally sink in. It was in fact this woman and I couldn't believe my eyes. After all, I was the one who always stopped traffic, was a total sweetheart, kind and supportive wife. I was/is attractive outwardly as well as inwardly... and here was this piggy, unattractive mess gloating on his complements. I was horrified to say the least. The waitress didn't bother me one bit. She was the most attractive of the bunch but she didn't know he was married. He 'pretended' he was separated. I held nothing against her whatsoever. Only him in this dynamic. The others? I totally held them accountable AS WELL AS HIM. I don't give two shakes whether he was the one who had the 'commitment' to me or not. These other two were messing around with my life vis-a-vis my husband and as far as I was concerned I would have knocked their blocks off if I ever ran into either one of them. God made me a woman otherwise I would have been in jail... my feminine ideals tempered my hostilities. If I had met face to face with them someone would have had a black eye and it wouldn't have been me. He admitted he was insane and went for professional help. He has been working to 'make this up to me' and thanks me for saving him from making toilet paper out of his life. The other married women... as far as I am concerned... are trash and there is nothing that would ever come out of either one of their mouths worth my time. I cannot imagine doing what they did. Where is their integrity as women? As people? I wouldn't soil my mind with their thoughts. When the ex-girlfriend tried to contact my husband by calling his brother (and did me the big 'favor' by airing the dirty laundry to him) she had the audacity to complain that I had emailed her basically telling her where to go. I saw her a chicken. If their 'love' was at all real on her part she would have come clean. I saw her as nothing but a middle aged twisted and pathetic horny old woman. I also wondered where a woman like this would wind up. He, of course, communicated NC after I found out and followed that (months later) with a registered letter to her telling her the 'truth' regarding his actual feelings for her... that in fact what he had told her were just lies to manipulate her. I was glad that he had done so. Firstly, because he had to own up to the immorality of such an act; and secondly to put an end to any delusions on her behalf. I suppose contacting her for purposes of a 'meeting' or phone communication might have revealed facts regarding what took place and it may have spared me the long drawn out 'trickle truth' but in hindsight I am glad that I never did either. Anything that would come out of her mouth wasn't worth my time. It took a while but she eventually became a non-entity to me... just a sad account of what can happen to women when they think of themselves in only sexual terms. In the end I pitied all of them... including my husband for such poor conduct. And, it has taken over a year for me to consider anything that comes out of my husband's mouth worth listening to. So, sometimes something of value can only come from someone of value. In this case, the OW has turned her life into toilet paper and perhaps has nothing to add to the equation except a toilet paper point of view... which certainly will not be enlightening or helpful to you. If you do happen to catch a glimpse of her... I would be willing to guarantee that you will be surprised that she isn't what you would think she'd be. I read articles on infidelity and the stats show that the overwhelming majority of men go for women who are well below the station, education and looks of their wives.... a fact that is twisted and spun on the OW/OM forums.... who portray the BW as the sexless, unattractive, inattentive shrew who doesn't care about their husband at all and with whom he doesn't have any sexual intimacy. This always gets a chuckle of out me. The OMW who he slept with was very interested in how I looked... as she checked me out on my website. How that didn't result in her cowering and running away I'll never know. But in the end I suppose my husband was better than a dirty movie and a vibrator. The issue of mate poaching is a very real one. They imagine inserting themselves into a dynamic where they are the new wife and the poor little misunderstood boy is forced to live with a bad mommy. Nothing that the OW could ever say would be coming from a point of integrity, so garnering anything from her would be a waste of oxygen and your time. Gamine, Gamine, Gamine! Excellent post! I see you've read the "Mate Poaching" research too - they certainly helped me make sense of the totally absurd dynamic surrounding my H's ONS. I won't reiterate the story in full here - you've heard it before, but in summary ...I had to check the email account to make sure that the emails from ONS were actually for him, I just couldn't like you say "process" that he had bothered even a ONS with this woman who not only saw herself as just someone to be used for sex (at least initally), but who looked uncannily like she had been run over and left for dead by a bus that reversed to make sure she was finished off!!! Then as I read more and more of her messages, it became clear...she totally adored my H, and in his arrogance he couldn't help but take advantage of the opportunity to be worshipped by someone who didn't (at least initally) expect anything in return and didn't feel she deserved more. Although my H didn't actually say she was gorgeous, that she managed to have him for one night surely made her believe that, and build on it to create her delusion. Once she sank into the state of delusion, the poor woman was no longer able to understand why if she was as gorgeous and worthy as he made her feel, he didn't want something more fulfilling with her. Infidelity research, esp mate poaching ones often highlight this as the "attraction" in an affair dynamic - which more often than not the the APs do not consciously realise at the time. Why on earth would a woman who feels worthy, and is able to secure a full relationship pursue or settle for so much less with her "soul mate"? As one of our OW friends said in one of her recent threads, "[she] couldn't believe [she] had managed to snag MM (and by snag, she meant have an A with him!), because when they met, [she] thought he was out of [her] league!" As they say, the girl who doesn't think she's hot will do anything to make a man feel like a king! And in many cases, the MM will say anything to get the OW to make them feel like a king! I hope Aeh doesn't waste her time adding to the hype about the OW in her case. Like you, I suspect it won't be worth the bother.
LaGazelle Posted July 29, 2009 Posted July 29, 2009 Thank you all, and especially Gamine!! Wonderful post! You're right on not wasting time or breath on focusing on OW. I have made up my mind not to contact her. I do need to get to the bottom of the emotional involvement that was there though. How do I do this? We are going to MC and he does seem to open up there (maybe more than I do). Aeh, I am so happy for you, that you have decided not to pursue this! Well done, and keep moving forward! Gamine, well done for nailing it! Cheers!
LaGazelle Posted July 29, 2009 Posted July 29, 2009 Hey Gamine, thank you so much for this post of yours... I was feeling so very lousy as I just posted on the thread "What's the most painful thing your spouse ever said to you about the OP" and I was feeling flooded with pain. So, now I come across this post of yours. Thank you for your warmth and your words... Athena, I'm so sorry you have been going through so much pain. Just remember that the darkest time of night is just before dawn. Chin up my darling!
OFGnomore Posted July 29, 2009 Posted July 29, 2009 Thank you all, and especially Gamine!! Wonderful post! I do need to get to the bottom of the emotional involvement that was there though. How do I do this? We are going to MC and he does seem to open up there (maybe more than I do). AEH, I think you said your H is a trickle truth guy right? That would be hard IMO, I came clean with everything with H. But H was read the emails I provided, so there was no denial on my part or his in what went on, emotionally/physically. More like ripping on a band aid. As Owl said, your H is probably in withdrawal which may complicate the process. Are you willing to lose the M and not settle for anything less than full disclosure, total honesty going forward? It's radical but perhaps you need to communicate this with your H so as to not find yourself in this situation again. Also, has your H been tested for STDs? I'd stop the "hysterical bonding" until he gets this done. In an affair fog or when WSs think they're in love they often don't use protection. And they may deny they engaged in unprotected sex, because they don't want to "hurt" you:rolleyes:. Either way you H needs to tow the line on this one and get it done IMO. HPV can pass through condoms and there is no cure for it. Just so you know as the WW, I got completey tested. Including HPV and Aids. And yeah, it's a wake up for any WS when you go into be tested and you check "married" on the insurance form. Seriously, please do this for your health. You know in NS7s thread about "hysterical bonding" he never mentioned having himself tested on his own accord. 3 affairs and no testing?? Scary.
Author aeh Posted July 29, 2009 Author Posted July 29, 2009 No, he hasn't been tested for STDs. Guess we should. His AP was a young Asian MW who was a virgin til she married her much older H. Then apparently after she realized that she did love sex and was very sexually driven, she realized their needs don't match up (her H is almost 30 years older than her). We talked in depth about the emotional part of it last night as soon as he walked in the door from work I started asking. He says she was "fun" (I bet!), but continues to assert that it was for the ego boost (she is the one who asked him to go to lunch with her for the first few times) and that she had reputation as a big flirt in the office. His company doesn't have a lot of young people who work there AT ALL, and I can only imagine the tech nerds thought she was really hot. Not that that says much. LOL. It was definitely an ego trip for him and about having the opportunity (not that he had to take it, of course) and the desire for a need not being met at home. He did mention last night again also about her having lots of guys that flirt with her, text her, call her. I was able to put this into perspective a little bit as I said that if she is indeed the young thing in the office, works with all older men (and many nerds at that), and is flirty and is yet married, she definitely crosses the line in her flirting if these guys think they can be calling her, texting her, etc It probably would have taken someone like that for my H to come out of his conservative shell. He actually said that in reality, even if we weren't together, she is probably not someone he could be with because she is so flirty and that's not his style. It seems to be a turnoff for him, but at the same time, that was what probably propelled the relationship out of the ordinary work relationship for him. He said he's definitely worked with more attractive, beautiful women than her but just never put himself in that situation or had someone who persistently pursued him. It also made me feel better as to why he thought guys might be after her and that when I put it into context, it took away some of her allure. We had several good long discussions about it all last night. I still believe in my heart of hearts, that he did NOT love her, that he said it to keep the A going and to get the sex. When he would go for awhile without emailing or contacting her, she would email or text, "Are you ignoring me now?"
Author aeh Posted July 29, 2009 Author Posted July 29, 2009 Oh, and the other thing I thought of was that I told him, "You realize that although she told you she was a virgin before she married her husband and she she says you are the only other one...if she is flirting that much that other guys are calling and texting her while she is married, it is unlikely that you are the only other one....she's definitely putting herself out there." So, yes, we do need to get tested!!
foreal Posted July 29, 2009 Posted July 29, 2009 Oh, and the other thing I thought of was that I told him, "You realize that although she told you she was a virgin before she married her husband and she she says you are the only other one...if she is flirting that much that other guys are calling and texting her while she is married, it is unlikely that you are the only other one....she's definitely putting herself out there." So, yes, we do need to get tested!! AEH, yes, get tested! My H swears they always used a condom, but helllooooo they also had oral sex, and condoms don't always work. It is almost sad the way the MM who has his first A after a long marriage believes their OW is virginal, a 'soiled dove' at most...GAG. My H truly believed his MOW had never had an A before him- he said she asked him if this was his first A and he said yes..he said she did not believe him at all... then he asked her if it was HER first and she said yes, well, except the one time she cheated on her Fiance, whom she did not marry, but that didn't count b/c they were not yet married and she ended the R... then I reminded him I've known her for over 15 years and she told me she banged her boss while she was living with a former boyfriend (boss dumped her)....she also banged her current boss now while married to her current H (Boss's W found out so boss dumped her)...see the trend?...I almost felt sorry for my H as he was in his fog and he was so sure he was her 'special one and only'...perhaps he was, as I do think she fell in love with him...but she will target someone else soon enough and try to fill the void that is in her empty, sad soul.
OFGnomore Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 No, he hasn't been tested for STDs. Guess we should. Guess we should?? You think? I still believe in my heart of hearts, that he did NOT love her, that he said it to keep the A going and to get the sex. You make it sound that THIS IS NORMAL OR OK. Imo, it's not a matter of sex or love it's about betrayal. It's betrayal to you, to your children, to another person. I don't understand why/how you require so little of him. But it's not my marriage. When he would go for awhile without emailing or contacting her, she would email or text, "Are you ignoring me now? Did you read these texts for yourself? Well if a person is telling you they LOVE YOU, you might ask why they're ignoring you. No? I came here looking for post affair support as a WS. Yeah I know I brought in on myself. But what I'm finding is that this place is more of a stopping ground for BWs. I guess I have say, I'm pretty amazed at how women are more likely to rationalize adultery than men in the reconcilation process. It's depressing. IMO, it's a financial/age thing. Give me a self supportive 27 y.o. female with a career, and she's not posting here. Here's my big take away about cheating so far...once done it's done, it's a part of you and your M like a scar or stain but life can go on and be stronger/wiser with a new awareness but ALWAYS with an additional layer of pain you'll carry. And I found this quote that I think women should have as their standard, especially those who have faced or endured multiple betrayals: Men who don't cheat are consciously not cheating, every single day. These men are strong men who love and care for their women and want to protect them from harm or pain. These are real men and should be celebrated as heroes. Truth is the majority of people don't cheat. After visiting infidelity sites, you make think it happens more because these forums draw that population but CHEATING IS NOT THE NORM!
Author aeh Posted July 30, 2009 Author Posted July 30, 2009 OFG, I in no way think that him just wanting the sex (and yes, the excitement and all that comes with an affair), makes it okay. I still think it is horrible, low, disgusting. It is DEFINITELY about the betrayal. I am absolutely fixated on the betrayal. I am fixated on its duration, that it took getting caught for it to stop. I still don't believe that he loved her though. Sounds naive, I know, but knowing the situation, him, what I know about her, etc I just don't believe this. I think it was lust, all about him satisfying his needs, having some fun and excitement and an ego boost. I am furious about the betrayal. I, in no way, am excusing or negating what he did. He is paying for it in so many ways you don't even know. Do I think I will eventually be able to move past it? In good moments, yes. And I do think that this could actually bring us closer, though I am LOATHING to say that. Do I think it has changed our marriage forever? Absolutely. Do I want to make him pay for what he has done? You bet. Do I want to forgive him? I want to, but I am not there yet.
Snowflower Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 aeh, Don't feel like you have to defend your decision to anyone here. Some people have agendas and will try to make you feel stupid about your decision, whatever it is. Others try to help or at least get you to think about things in a different way. Only YOU know the real situation with your marriage and your husband. Sure, listen to what others have to say, but do not feel you have to defend yourself. After all, you are the one who has to live with your decisions. It is very easy to type anonymously on a keyboard and say, "well, this is how it is, blah, blah, blah." Just remember that everyone projects their own perspective in their posts, based on their own experiences. You do not have to explain yourself to anyone here.
Recommended Posts