SM22 Posted July 26, 2009 Posted July 26, 2009 Previous related post: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=195573 Okay so this guy that I went on one date with has been avoiding seeing me but still contacts me...I eventually said I didnt want to continue talking to him because of his weird behavior. He then tells me he has a lot of issues with women and that he is addicted to sex. We had a 3 hour long convo and he was saying he was trying to deal with it and his faith has been helping him. My question is, do sex addicts ever change?
Thaddeus Posted July 26, 2009 Posted July 26, 2009 My question is, do sex addicts ever change?Sure. Sex addiction is just like any other addiction. I don't think it ever truly goes away (just like the alcoholic who's still drawn to alcohol, even though he/she may have been dry for decades) but one learns to manage it and keep it from becoming an all-consuming problem.
SoulSearch_CO Posted July 26, 2009 Posted July 26, 2009 Well...just like any other addiction, they have to hit absolute rock bottom and lose whatever is most precious to them to be spurred into changing. It has to be a choice they make on their own and they need to find healthier coping methods than sex. I think it's an incredibly difficult addiction to break. My XH is a sex-addict and I don't think he'll ever change. Even though he claims he has since he and I divorced.
sxyNYCcpl Posted July 26, 2009 Posted July 26, 2009 Sexual addiction? There is no such disease recognized by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, aka the bible for shrinks. IMO, most cases of "sex addiction" are caused because of dissimilar interests between partners, where the low desire partner labels the high desire partner as an "addict" because "normal people don't like sex that much". You're horny? How awful, maybe you should see a doctor for that.
You'reasian Posted July 26, 2009 Posted July 26, 2009 IMO, most cases of "sex addiction" are caused because of dissimilar interests between partners, where the low desire partner labels the high desire partner as an "addict" because "normal people don't like sex that much". You're horny? How awful, maybe you should see a doctor for that. Can't imagine the horror of a couple having frequent and intense sex...lol
sxyNYCcpl Posted July 26, 2009 Posted July 26, 2009 Oh nonsense' date=' that is the most RIDICULOUS thing ever!! There is totally such a thing as a sex addict! :rolleyes: [/quote'] Not according to the folks in charge of defining what is and is not a mental disorder. Normal people actually like sex and frequently' date=' abnormal people lie and cheat to have sex 24/7 with anything that pulsates.[/quote'] Not all sex requires lying and cheating to accomplish. I stand by my original thesis, most "cases" of sexual addiction involve two partners that either have much different libidos resulting in one partner who is frustrated and one who feels pestered by their "abnormally enthusiastic" partner, or where one partner believes in monogamy and the other doesn't. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to suggest that such problems within a relationship are not problematic, merely that most of the time it's different value systems to blame, not an "addiction". Look up information on David Duchovny. Get back to me when he's actually diagnosed by a medical professional with a sexual addiction. You really don't want to get involved with someone who admits to this at this point in the game' date=' sex addicts are also cheaters and liars. They have compulsions to have sex with anyone and anytime they feel like it.[/quote'] Some people do not desire monogamy. Such a desire does not an addict make. However, if the OP's potential partner is such a person, he should admit that to himself and find a partner who shares his values.
sxyNYCcpl Posted July 26, 2009 Posted July 26, 2009 sxyNYCcpl the guy in the OP is a self proclaimed sex addict' date=' what you or I think is irrelevant. If he is telling SM22 he has a sex addiction, well guess what?[u'] He has a sex addiction[/u]. Who diagnosed that condition? Did a psychologist tell him that, or was it an ex-girlfriend who thought he watched too much porn and found the sexual acts he wanted to do abhorrent? Cause it damn sure wasn't a psychologist, not a competent one anyway. I repeat myself, no such condition exists in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Good article on the subject written by a psychotherapist, certified sex therapist, and board certified clinical sexologist: http://magazine.kasidie.com/2008/02/the-myth-of-sexual-addiction/
sxyNYCcpl Posted July 26, 2009 Posted July 26, 2009 You clearly don't think this condition exists and you are entitled to be in denial. My opinion is wholly irrelevant. That the professional association that determines the standards thinks the condition doesn't exist is not. I am not stating my opinion, I am sharing theirs. AND excuse me but you are linking an article from a BLOG on a site for the ADULT SWINGING community? Don't make me laugh!!! Would you like to refute the content of the article? Perhaps challenge the credentials of the author? Or is the fact that it is to be found on a swingers blog automatically render anything said on the subject moot?
JustLooking123 Posted July 26, 2009 Posted July 26, 2009 Also, the DSM is man-made, and it changes. Homosexuality used to be a "disorder" in the DSM. In fact, a new edition will come out in a few years. There is much discussion about including sex addiction in the new version. Point being, a disorder's presence or absence in the DSM means virtually nothing about its existence or non-existence.
carhill Posted July 26, 2009 Posted July 26, 2009 Does his actions and/or perspective inhibit the formation and continuance of healthy human social relationships? Can an addict change? IME, addictive personality, no matter the addiction, is an emotional/psychological setpoint. It's intrinsic to the brain chemistry of the person. It's possible to change the brain chemistry with substances (which for many is the essence of addiction) and change the behaviors with cognitive therapy. This will only happen if the subject wants them to change. Is the classic womanizer who leaves a trail of broken families and damaged offspring behind him a sex addict? Is he an attention addict? Or, is he just polyamorous? A good guy who likes sex more than his partners and needs it from others? I guess it depends on your perspective. In the OP, will he change his behaviors? Not likely, unless given adequate incentive. He would be changing an elemental part of his personality, the manifestation of his sexual drive. It's hard to get more basic than that. Absent total social rejection, I doubt he'll ever change in a meaningful way. There's always a new and unsuspecting target.
carhill Posted July 26, 2009 Posted July 26, 2009 Our psychologist defined such as "a behavior/condition requiring scrutiny" if it inhibits the formation and maintenance of healthy human social relationships. The diagnosis process is incremental and comprehensive. He was reluctant to quickly assign labels and I agree with that caution. Awareness is sufficient, as meaningful work cannot take place without awareness and, subsequently, acceptance of the behavior/condition as being an inhibition, in our case, to a healthy M. Acceptance is the key. Accepting that the behavior is damaging to the relationship and making a choice to prioritize (or not) the relationship (or personal health, as applicable) over the behavior is the next step. If the relationship/personal health is the priority, then meaningful work can begin. The patient has to choose that path continuously.
sxyNYCcpl Posted July 26, 2009 Posted July 26, 2009 Yes I would here you go: I would suggest that links to articles that are themselves somewhat on the fence about sexual addiction does not amount to refuting the article I previously posted, nor in discrediting the author. But lets take a look at some of the quotes from your articles. As I mentioned above, my sexual addiction came into my marriage, and damaged my relationship with my wife. As a result of my past use of pornography, I had a much higher sex drive than my wife. When we started having children, her sex drive began to drop even more as the stress of taking care of infants and toddlers started to take its toll on her. So I found myself satisfying myself much more often than she satisfied me.So here we have a self-described sexual addict who acknowledges that the underlying problem is that he and his wife are not on the same page sexually. Apparently he believes that wanting sex more often than his wife, which he believes was CAUSED by the use of pornography (in and of itself preposterous) was indicative of sexual addiction. I would opine the exact opposite, that his wife had her sexuality suppressed by so many years of being taught that good girls don't that she thought there was nothing wrong with neglecting her husband's, and indeed her own suppressed needs. Beth is a 42 year old married woman with two children requesting a consultation regarding her husband Frank's behavior and her marital situation. She had discovered Frank had been visiting porn sites on his computer. She confronted him and he became outraged, defensive and accused her of violating his privacy. He refused to join her in seeking treatment.Another example where the underlying pathology is a different value system between partners. For if this woman were also a fan of internet porn, she would not have had any problem with her husbands behavior, thus no need to seek therapy for his "addiction". Another quote I found interesting: Sexual addiction can take on many forms, from the use of pornography and masturbation to repeated sexual affairs, patronizing prostitutes, and voyeurism.One has to assume that pornography, masturbation, sexual affairs, patronizing prostitutes, and voyeurism are ipso facto bad things in order to then categorize their very presence as being indicative of addiction. I go back to my original hypothesis. Most cases of "sexual addiction" are really about people with differing libidos, values, or expectations about monogamy who happen to find themselves in a relationship together. I do not deny that some can take things too far, and have compulsive issues relating to sexuality. That is equally true of just about anything though, be it golf, tennis, or coin collecting. If it gets in the way of your "normal" life it is an addiction. This woman and man would want a "normal" relationship and the guy in question cannot give her that' date=' he has an addiction to sex.[/quote'] We have no idea what he has. He is a self-described sex addict. What does that mean? Why does he describe himself that way? If he's masturbating 40 times a day, well that's one thing. If he cruises the net for porn and spanks it a couple of times a week? Well, the fact is many sexually repressed women would indeed label that as being a sex addict. One need venture no further than this website to see examples of that. Now, do you intend to analyze the content of the article I referenced, or are you just going to write it off because it came off a swingers blog?
sxyNYCcpl Posted July 26, 2009 Posted July 26, 2009 The OP mentioned this man said he had a sexual addiction' date=' the psychological community accepts there is such an addiction, hence the articles I linked. All it is saying is that the person has extreme destructive tendencies of the sexual kind that do interfere with the normality of day to day life.[/quote'] You are missing my point. Take the case that I quoted where Betty, or whatever her name was, at 42, discovered her husband had been viewing porn, and landed in a therapists office lamenting his addiction as a result of it. The article did not have a lot of details, so while I suppose it's possible he was doing it 20 hours a day, spending money he didn't have, and otherwise behaving in compulsive ways, it's a reasonable assumption that since the aforementioned use of porn went unnoticed for years that no such compulsive behavior existed. Ergo, it's not that Betty's husband is a sex addict, but it's that she and her husbands value system with regard to porn use is different. It doesn't mean it's not a problem just because it ain't necessarily an addiction, clearly it is, but it's a clash of values that is the problem. It would almost be better if it WERE an addiction, because with effort, most addictions can be beaten. However, if Betty believes porn is evil, and her hubby don't, in order for that relationship to be healthy moving forward, one of 'em is gonna have to change their mind which, frankly, is unlikely. If I were married to Betty, she would no doubt label me an extreme sex addict. I watch porn. I masturbate. I have sex in public (in places where such behavior is reasonable and expected), and enjoy watching others do so as well. Yet since I am married to someone of similar values as me, the behaviors and values that Betty would no doubt label as addiction in the extreme do not cause fights, drama, or the need for therapy to restore order. Since sex addiction appears to frequently correspond to the values and desires of the one making the accusation, it would seem to be awfully subjective. To the OP, I would again say, why does he label himself a sexual addict? If he's a compulsive masturbator who just can't stop, ok there is a problem. Otherwise, he may just have reasonable sexual interests that he or someone else has labeled as "addiction" because it's outside the "norm". Would you say alcoholism doesn't exist because it is also an addiction? There are millions of people who use alcohol in a (more or less) healthy way. You won't find a reasonable person running off to a therapist and accusing their spouse of being an alcoholic because they have a few beers from time to time. Frequently, however, accusations of sexual addiction do not acknowledge that there is ANY healthy way to do (or want to do) whatever behavior caused the accusation in the first place.
sxyNYCcpl Posted July 26, 2009 Posted July 26, 2009 Ok so let me entetain your theory that it just boils down to differing libidos' date=' then explain to me why if a man (we'll say a man because in this case it is a man) who knows he has a substantially higher libido than the average woman he will encounter, why would he even entertain a long term relationship with her if he knows his needs will not be met in this realm?[/quote'] I am not saying he should, quite the opposite, I would fully advise such a person to ensure he find someone on the same sheet of music. I am simply saying that in many, and probably most cases, folks labeled as sexual addicts are no such thing. If you like porn (or whatever), that don't make you an addict. But own it, and don't try to pretend to be something you are not. But in this case, the OP basically asked if she should even consider entertaining the idea of a relationship with a "sexual addict". And my answer is we do not have enough information to answer that question. If he's an "addict" because he likes wearing ladies lingerie, and the idea of her partner wearing lingerie turns her on, I'd say that's a compatible match. If she finds it sick and twisted, well then I'd say no.
DMoon Posted July 26, 2009 Posted July 26, 2009 Previous related post: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=195573 Okay so this guy that I went on one date with has been avoiding seeing me but still contacts me...I eventually said I didnt want to continue talking to him because of his weird behavior. He then tells me he has a lot of issues with women and that he is addicted to sex. We had a 3 hour long convo and he was saying he was trying to deal with it and his faith has been helping him. My question is, do sex addicts ever change? Sex addicts can change but it takes a 12 step process (SA), psychotherapy and in some cases medication since it is considered a kind of obsessive compulsive behavior. Sex addicts usually find no pleasure in what they are doing. They have fractured unfulfilled lives and will engage in risky and dangerous behavior even if they know it is self destructive. You have to ascertain if he merely has a very high sex drive (and gets pleasure from it all the time), or if he has a real addicition in which he may tell you that he has left behind a series of broken hearts and drama. In most cases, the addiction rules their lives and they may often be quite miserable and prone to blaming others. Again sex addicition is not about pleasure or a high sex drive, it is a compulsion, like people with OCD--think of Monk. You should tread carefully and consider whether you want to take it on, especially since he has shown to already be unreliable.
sxyNYCcpl Posted July 27, 2009 Posted July 27, 2009 You basically want to blame women for their lack of understanding of men's high libido and that we women make men's natural tendencies into a "pathology". I'm sorry but it is not that simple. It's not misogynistic to say that when couples deal with sexual problems, more often than not the female is the one arguing from a more conservative, arguably more prudish, position. The reason it's not misogynistic is because it's usually true. Generally speaking, men are more sexual than women. Why is that? Most would argue it's nature, but I have come to the conclusion that it's nurture. Women are no less inherently sexual than are men, but we beat it out of them almost from birth. Training them that good girls don't, they don't want to be considered a slut, that sex is reserved for marriage ONLY, etc. It is that training which, IMO, causes the vast divide we too frequently see between men and women. And it's a crying shame. If it does boil down to ideologies and different values' date=' where was this man when the arrangements of a long term relationship were being cemented, had he per chance left the room? Before he knew it he became a victim of a relationship with a woman who would chastise his sexual freedom and therefore that is why he finds himself constrained to "hiding" his sexual endeavors, be it porn, sex lines or casual sexual hookups through swinger sites and bars?[/quote'] You'll get no argument from me on this point. There should be full disclosure, and almost from the very beginning of the relationship. Yes, it may lead to a lot of relationships being cut short, but that's better than having one not get cut short that should have been. It is about a man who is so consumed by his need for sexual fantasy that he cannot even separate the fact that he is at work performing a job' date=' and when people are at work they are not supposed to be in their offices with the doors locked chocking the chicken staring at porn for hours on end.[/quote'] And how common do you suppose this scenario is? This is an extreme case, and is not consistent with the story of Betty previously outlined. Please do note that I'm not saying Betty bad, Bob good. Bob, as we have already discussed, absolutely should have disclosed a good long time ago, and they have problems. But it's a combination of the failure to disclose combined with the differences in their value system about the usage of porn that is the basis for that problem, not that he is an addict. You basically blame Betty for this man's actions? Funny but I posted 5 articles the only thing you decided to focus on was a blurb' date=' that could in fact be a case of different values, but you dismiss everything else I posted?[/quote'] Because there was nothing in the articles that countered my argument that most sexual "addicts" are merely dealing with having different values than their partner. In fact, there were several examples, some of which I pointed out, that reinforced that position. So Bob is labeled an addict by Betty, and the evidence we have points to casual use at most. If he is staying at the office until the wee hours of the night compulsively masturbating, nobody will argue he's got a problem, but if it's just casual use in the face of Betty's absolute no tolerance policy, her labeling him an "addict" is over the top. In this case the OP was told by this man that he has several problems in past relationships with women because of his sexual deviance' date=' are you going to also blame the OP for not being sexually deviant herself?[/quote'] Blame? No. Depending on what sexual "deviance" means in this case, she's either down with it or she's not. Neither is right or wrong, but knowing the answer to that will answer the original question, which is should she continue dating him.
sxyNYCcpl Posted July 27, 2009 Posted July 27, 2009 No he is more than likely an addict because he is addicted to promiscuity' date=' or porn or any other intrusive action that will destruct a healthy realtionship.[/quote'] Is a person an addict by definition if they don't ascribe to monogamy or like porn? That seems to be what you're saying.
Jilly Bean Posted July 27, 2009 Posted July 27, 2009 OP - SXYNYC is totally right. People throw around mental health labels WAY too frequently, and more times than not, it is not a genuine, nor accurate diagnosis. That being said, has this guy been diagnosed by a mental health professional as being a sex addict, and is he seeking treatment for it? Or, did he just throw it out there because it sounds like something cool to say?
BUENG1 Posted July 27, 2009 Posted July 27, 2009 OP - SXYNYC is totally right. People throw around mental health labels WAY too frequently, and more times than not, it is not a genuine, nor accurate diagnosis. That being said, has this guy been diagnosed by a mental health professional as being a sex addict, and is he seeking treatment for it? Or, did he just throw it out there because it sounds like something cool to say? Yes I'd have to agree with Jilly here. His ex could have had a lower libido he's gullible and told him he was a sex addict and now he is a sex addict. Just like lay people diagnose each other as having borderline personality disorder, narcissism and all sorts of mental illnesses. Has he been diagnosed by a professional as a "sex addict" or just people on websites such as these?
BUENG1 Posted July 27, 2009 Posted July 27, 2009 You are mixing apples and oranges' date=' you are comparing personality dissorders (which I agree are all made up) to addictions, to mental illness.[/quote'] For the purpose of this subject, they are the same. People diagnosing addictions or other problems) without any qualifications to do so. I know plenty of people who say their partners are sex addicts because they would like sex 5 or 6 times a month.
sxyNYCcpl Posted July 27, 2009 Posted July 27, 2009 So what are you saying men have no balls? Men just get pssywhipped into relationships that are completely imbalanced for them sexually speaking and then they need a release by acting out in sexual ways that are actually normal but a product of the oppression women have on them? Men and women are both guilty of this. For some reason, as a whole, we are very hesitant to discuss difficult things, most especially sexual issues. Men watch porn and keep it to themselves. Women assume their men do NOT watch (which, statistically speaking is not a reasonable assumption) and are shocked and dismayed when they discover they do. If you have an SO, did you guys sit down and talk about expectations and desires? Did you discuss your fantasies, and differentiate between those that you may want to live out, as opposed to those you believe should stay in the fantasy realm? Did you tell him you like having your hair pulled, or alternatively that you despise it? If so, good for you. But that makes you very much in the minority. Ahh actually it is VERY common. That is what sexual addiction is. It is deviant behavior. Lies and sneaking around to the point where it affects your productivity as a fully functioning member of society. If you say so. But I know a lot of people who watch porn, or indulge in sexual behaviors that are less than mainstream. A LOT of people. And I am not aware of a single one that took it to this kind of extreme. Give it up with Betty you are really fixating now. Betty is one example and not every example. You are correct. But the scenario of a woman ascribing her husbands casual use of porn to an "addiction" (because, after all, it HAS to be an addiction, because there is NO SUCH THING as healthy use of porn) is extraordinarily common. Despite the fact that said husband has no such addiction. Tell that to the father of three who has been with a serial cheater who promises to keep her legs closed only to do it again' date=' and to the chain of men she had before him whom she also serially cheated on.[/quote'] This woman needs to admit, first to herself, and then to the others in her life, that she has no desire to live a monogamous lifestyle. That may mean she has to find a man who has similar values, and it may mean her current relationship has to be sacrificed, but she is who she is. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. That's not what I am saying at all. Quit playing coy' date=' it's so utterly prosaic.[/quote'] But therein lies the rub, for that is exactly what you seem to be saying. I said this earlier in our debate, and you didn't respond, but the fact is there are many women, and you may be one of them, who would label me a sexual addict. I am a very sexual person. I go to sex clubs, I participate in orgies, I masturbate, I watch porn, hell I MAKE porn. Not commercial (defined as for profit, though I've considered it) but porn nonetheless. But I learned my lessons, and as a result I sought out a woman who has similar values as I do, and was lucky enough to find her. But had I been afraid to state, up front, what kind of relationship I wanted it's quite possible I could have developed a relationship with a woman who finds my proclivities horrifying. And that would have been a shame. But it wouldn't have made me an addict.
looking4 green grass Posted July 27, 2009 Posted July 27, 2009 Wow. What a fascinating debate this thread has turned into. While the DSM does not currently have criteria r/t sexual addiction, I assure you that it is quite common for those of us who work with addiction populations to encounter this. It goes hand in hand many times with drug and ETOH abuse and is used as a coping mechanism. Perhaps that is where sex crosses the line from "normal" to "addiction." First and foremost, any disorder must cause a marked impairment in the pt's life to warrant a dx by a professional. And I have come to believe, on a purely anecdotal level, that a true sex addiction probably exists when the pt admits to using it to cope with feelings. Sexual addictions are by nature very difficult to treat. An alcoholic or drug addict is taught to set down the substance and never use it again. It's unlikely that a person will remain celibate for the rest of his or her live. So in essence, each time he or she has sex after treatment can be viewed as a relapse, which could potentially lead into a downward spiral of full blown addiction again. Perhaps this will be in the new DSM? Still though, very interesting discussion here.
looking4 green grass Posted July 27, 2009 Posted July 27, 2009 Was there any specific question that you had? I'll give the best answer I can! What kept coming to my mind as I read this was that it is interesting that sexual addiction does not have a DSM code, but pedophilia does. And the there are various "treatment" modalities for this as well.
looking4 green grass Posted July 27, 2009 Posted July 27, 2009 The thing with addictions, is that they are all hard to define. What exactly constitutes marked impairment in a person's life. Some food for thought first. When addressing drugs, people who use crack, heroine, opioids, etc. are immediately defined as "addicts," and there are tx programs all over the country to address these types of addictions and recovery. However, there is little literature and basically no "treatment" for people who smoke marijuana. Although it is also use of an illegal drug, it does not carry the same "addiction" connotation as the others. So is marijuana an addiction?? Then take a closer look at ETOH. Studies have shown that the way each person individually metabolizes ETOH affects how "drunk" the person will become (cytochrome p450 type stuff.....fascinating little boogers). For some it may take 2 drinks, for others more. Something we professionals love to argue about is when does social drinking cross the line, when it is truly causing a disruption in the person's life. There is a lot of gray area here. Especially when considered within a cultural context. While it is normal to have a glass of wine in France with lunch, if it was done in the US it would be a "problem." Both of these scenarios can be applied to sex within the clinical practice. First, the provider must take into account what is "culturally" acceptable for that individual. Different cultures have different views of sex for men and women. Then, how far must that person deviate outside of the cultural norm to be considered addicted to sex. For me, if the sex is causing a significant impairment financially, emotionally, or physically, then I treat it like any other addiction. CBT is an addict's best friend. In the populations I have worked with (and this applies women addicts only) I have hardly ever come across anyone where sex was not part of the addiction. This is partly because of the street lifestyle. The women would sale their bodies in exchange for drugs or money. Some where along the line, sex and men/relationships, often becomes part of the addiction cycle for these women. They use sex and men as a way to cope with negative or stressful feelings. I do strongly believe these women are as addicted to the "lifestyle" that goes along with drugs as the drug itself. Sex is part of that lifestyle. Now outside of an addict population, I do believe that sexual addiction can exist. As a clinician I would probably use something Impulse Control Disorder NOS. Sexual addiction has nothing to do with how compatible two people are sexually. It has to do with how the sex is affecting the life of the individual with the addiction. For example, if a couple came in and the wife wanted to have sex 4 times a month and the husband 25, that is not a sexual addiction 1.) because the man's desires are within societal norm for the US 2.) it is not causing marked impairment in social, financial, physical, or emotional contexts. It could very well be that the wife has Hypoactive Sexual Desire Disorder! (I admit, I've never used that! lol) But really, sexual desire incompatibility alone does not warrant a dx. Do people like that use the label incorrectly? Yes. All the time. The same way people use Schizophrenia and Bipolar incorrectly.
sxyNYCcpl Posted July 27, 2009 Posted July 27, 2009 Generally speaking I have not had problems in terms of discussing sex even if the guy is sort of uncomfortable I will find a way to make him feel comfortable enough to discuss his preferences' date=' now if he hides things from me that is not my problem. If he is at the strip joint every night or soliciting prostitutes and then he tones it down for a while when we are hot and heavy but then further into our relationship he resorts back to all that fully knowing that I am not into a swinger lifestyle and he cannot cut that part of his life out, who is it fault here?[/quote'] This isn't about fault or blame. If this hypothetical guy is into strip joints, prostitutes, and the swinger lifestyle and you are not that is a problem. A MAJOR problem. Probably an insurmountable problem. OTOH, if you are also into strip joints, prostitutes, and the swinger lifestyle, and as a result you and he can enjoy those things together, then what? Is it simply a case of 2 addicts co-enabling each other, or just 2 people who are on the same sheet of music enjoying what life has to offer? If I am dating my current man and I ask him how much porn do you watch' date=' and he tells me "I don't watch porn" or "hardly ever" or whatever the stock answer is that men give in that scenario and I later find my husband is neglecting things in the relationship or at work because of his little "hobby" and wasting thousands of our family dollars on porn sites am I supposed to take the label of Betty? I am some crazy witch who is out to chastise my husband and hold him down sexually?[/quote'] If your SO lies to you about this topic, that in and of itself is a problem. A common problem, yes, and that is a shame but IMO it goes back to my point about what we as a society teach people to expect from their sexuality. First, anyone "wasting thousands" on porn sites is dumb to begin with if for no other reason than because there is so much content available for free. But take the case of Christie Brinkley and her divorce. I am not privy to her financial situation, but I think it's safe to say that in her position, her husband spending a few thousand a month on porn and swinger websites is financially meaningless. Therefore, I think it's equally safe to say that her attitude about the porn and swinger sites that her ex-husband allegedly visited played as big a role in it being controversial as did his. Which is to say that if she enjoyed it as much as he did, and they enjoyed it together, even if they spent thousands a month, given my assumptions about their financial health, it would not have been a problem. I would not consider my man looking at porn from time to time a sexual addiction I would consider that a distraction' date=' or some harmless escape. No big deal. [/quote'] Good for you. But that doesn't change the fact that there are countless thousands of men out there who have been labeled sexual addicts by their wives for exactly that. And those who believe such things feed off of and enable each other. If you don't believe me, a simple google search will lead you to websites where such women commune. I read one woman at an anti-porn site who was proud that her husband of 12 years had never even seen her naked. The reality is that not every man (I dare make this claim for men) would prefer an open relationship filled with orgies and partner swapping and a parade of meaningless sexual encounters with people whom they don't even know their name. <SNIP> Blaming women or their partner for oppressing his "natural tendencies" is cowardly at best. You'll get no argument from me about that, because you are absolutely right. But as I said before, if you are a man (or woman) who does in fact desire such a lifestyle, then own it and seek it out. In your case you are open about your interest in open relationships and you will never develop an addiction to sex' date=' because in your life there are no boundaries. [b']If you choose a life[/b] constricted to certain moral and social boundaries then live up to it. It's not too much to ask for now is it? Ding ding ding ding ding!!! I think you just made my point for me. If I cannot develop an addiction to sex despite my outside of the norm desires and behaviors because my behaviors do not violate my or my partners boundaries then it's not the behaviors that determine addiction, rather it is the behaviors as they relate to the mutually agreed upon boundaries. I am not saying having boundaries different from mine is wrong, and I agree that if you agree to boundaries that you should live up to that. But if I can watch porn and participate in orgies and go to swinger websites and whatnot and not be addicted, then wouldn't that imply that Ms. Brinkley's husband, rather than being an addict, merely had different boundaries and desires than his wife? Or am I missing something? Let me be clear, I am not saying him right, her wrong. What I am saying is that the core issue is mis-matched desires and not an addiction that caused their problems. If addiction exists, then behaviors in and of themselves determine whether or not an individual is addicted. But if I can enjoy certain things and not be an addict, the fact that another person would enjoy them as well does not make them an addict if the only thing holding them back is their partners lack of desire to do so as well. Maybe' date=' or maybe she really wants a life of monogamy and "normalcy" and this is what torments her she is battling deeper issues that neither you nor I can begin to comprehend.[/quote'] More likely she *thinks* she wants monogamy and normalcy because it's been drummed into her head since she was old enough to understand the language that that is what she is *supposed* to want. And yet she doesn't. So instead of saying, hmm, I guess I'm a bit different and rolling with it she tortures herself trying to squeeze into a box that doesn't fit.
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