sb129 Posted July 26, 2009 Posted July 26, 2009 PS- I totally get what HG is saying now about doing the PhD abroad. NZ academic circles are pretty small, and overseas academic experience definitely puts you ahead of the rest if you do it, in fact its almost a requirement.
Ariadne Posted July 26, 2009 Posted July 26, 2009 I can do a PhD here, but the employment rate is near 0% I'm talking about Oxford, Cambridge... Oh, oh. I'm afraid you are going to regret it big time. I have the feeling that that programme is going to be 10 times more difficult than in America. You are going to be But maybe not...
Hkizzle Posted July 26, 2009 Posted July 26, 2009 Career. The reason is this. If the two of you are meant to be together then some time apart whilst you got your phd would not impact that. But if you did break up anyway, you got nothing. Yes love is about compromise and sacrifice. In which case, why can't the two of you be apart for some time? If your love doesn't stand that test then well, it wasn't meant to be anyway. It's not a selfish decision. But it's definitely a smart one for you.
BobSacamento Posted July 26, 2009 Posted July 26, 2009 If you've been together for 3 years, living together and he hasn't popped the question: Career.
Els Posted July 26, 2009 Posted July 26, 2009 My best advice would be to explore *all* educational options and pick the one which works best for you. You may not have explored all the options yet. Once you're done and have picked, bring it to him and listen to and accept his perspective. What will be will be I totally agree with this. It may not just be either 'career' or 'love' as you are putting it. You need to keep brainstorming, keep finding out alternatives, keep discussing it with him. There may be so many other choices on the horizon, some which might allow you to have both. Frankly if you're having severe trust issues while you're both together in the same place, I really don't think the LDR route would be suitable for you. At least not until you both get the issues resolved properly for some time.
Author hendersongirl Posted July 27, 2009 Author Posted July 27, 2009 sb129 - Yes NZ nowhere here is top-50 material... Ariadne - I'm not sure what you are saying I will regret, going or staying. I am not in America, nor will I be travelling there. And yes, I know PhDs are hard work, especially the ones worth getting. That's kind of why I'm getting one. In NZ and in most places other than America it is three years writing a thesis. Also, everyone seems mighty concerned about whether we are engaged or not. We are, though informally. But more importantly, we have talked numerous times about the future and are both excited about being together for the rest of our lives, having children, growing old together etc etc. The commitment to the effect of marriage is there. I am not too hung up on marriage itself though - my mum married my dad and divorced 6 months later (I was 1). She and my stepdad have been together since I was 2, so 20 years now, have two kids after me, and have never married. Its just a contract, and these contracts dont have to be observed by the state to be legitimate and meaningful, IMO. So, my bf and I have a long term relationship. As for options peripheral to a PhD - there arent any. I want to be an academic, always have, always will... Nothing else appeals to me even the slightest bit. A PhD is required. A PhD from a GOOD (ie top-50) university is as good as being required. My marks are good enough, the only thing stopping me would be my relationship. LDR wouldn't work. I know, I should be mature and try it, and if the R is strong it will survive and all that.. But just who I am.. I would be miserable and hate it and yuck. Not for us. Call us weak if you like, but we just don't have the personalities for it. Thanks everyone for your input. I might bring it up again soon, perhaps he isn't so dead set on staying here anymore.. We sort of decided to stay here a few months ago, but gradually I have come to realise what a disadvantage I would be in. I don't know what he will think. We'll see.
lordWilhelm Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 Have you actually gotten accepted into those schools and are now considering your options. Or will you be applying next year? If you're thinking about applying next year, then go ahead and do so. I think that you should have all your options on the table before you make a decision rather than discussing unspecified possibilities. You should probably go with your gut instinct on this. It sounds like there's many problems with the relationship right now. Do you see these problems being resolved?
Citizen Drawn Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 I did mine at a top 5 Uni. You really shouldn't prioritise by reputation - ok it does help, and yes when you go to conferences people do pay a little more attention (sad I know) but your #'1 priority is your supervisor. Yes I know the better academics are at the better Universities on the whole but if you go for reputation and end up with a supervisor that doesn't fit your needs you are in a lot of trouble. After that it is more about what you publish than the Uni you are at, though the better academics will help in advice and open up opportunities - IF THEY ARE NOT TOO BUSY. That is the downside in studying with a better academic, they are usually half way around the world! You are also going to have some trouble getting funding if you want to study in the UK, the EU students usually get it. I can't recall any non-EU students that didn't come on their own government grants. I just want to point out that you could do your PhD in NZ and not harm you career prospects if there is someone with a good reputation in your field. As for jobs - you're not restricting yourself to a job NZ if you do one in NZ. Similarly you will not necessarily stay at the institution or country you do your PhD in. And on that note the UK visa laws for PhD students just got tightened up as far as the writing up period goes so I would be quite careful because you may have to go back to NZ straight after your viva.
tblucky Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 I would think long and hard about where you think the relationship is going. Try to find out why you have doubts about its future. Are there fundamental issues which will never go away? Why are you fighting so much? A good career gives you so many blessings like independence, financial freedom, and feelings of accomplishment. Don't throw that away on a relationship that might not even last. I'm guilty of this myself, but people tend to think that the person they're with today is the last person they'll ever love. It isn't true though.
Citizen Drawn Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 I just thought of one other thing - do not underestimate the benefit of a support structure from a loving partner while you are doing a PhD. Everyone goes through some form of minor breakdown at some point (I am not kidding)
Citizen Drawn Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 A good career gives you so many blessings like independence, financial freedom, and feelings of accomplishment. Don't throw that away on a relationship that might not even last. I'm guilty of this myself, but people tend to think that the person they're with today is the last person they'll ever love. It isn't true though. A career in academia gives is highly stressed, takes up most of your time, and is completely financially and employment unstable for quite a few years. If it's a calling, fine, but I wouldn't glorify it because the truth is it's a tough job which can fling you from place to place on a whim with inappropriate financial rewards compared to much more menial 9-5's in management.
sb129 Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 I am also from NZ, and I get what HG is saying about the top 50 university thing. Its not just reputation- our country is so small (4.5 million people) that much of the research done here, esp in smaller fields, just doesn't have access to the same sample sizes and resources other bigger universities in other countries have. Overseas experience is considered very valuable in nearly every field- in fact we are a nation of travellers, 95% of New Zealanders have a passport, and getting out to see the world and get overseas experience is almost expected as part of our culture. As far as visas go, yes visa laws have tightened up to the UK over the last few years, but so many people here are second or third generation British anyway (giving them priority visas or the ability to get a UK passport) that that may not be an issue.
Thornton Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 If he loved you so much, he'd be prepared to compromise. A PhD at Oxford or Cambridge would take approx. three years; you could have an LDR for that period, or he could move with you - I know he wants to be near his parents, but let's face it, they'll still be there in three years time if you wanted to move back. He's essentially prioritising his parents and his own desires over you, and you'll feel incredibly resentful in future if you go along with that and miss the opportunities you've worked so hard for. If the relationship was perfect then you wouldn't even consider prioritising your career - although I prefer to think of it as prioritising yourself and your own dreams over his selfish desires. Perhaps you could try an LDR for a year and see how it goes, and maybe he'd be keen to move after he realised he missed you? Either that or you'd realise you're better off apart anyway. You really don't want to be with a guy who prioritises his desires over your career, because he will always continue to do that. The truth is, you're both at different places in life - he's 33 and wants to live near his parents and have kids etc, while you're 22 and you want to travel the world and get an education. Those two things just aren't compatible. PS I speak from experience - I was offered a PhD in the north of England and my bf wanted to stay where we were currently living in the south. Bear in mind I had already compromised and moved down south to please him, even though I didn't want to. But he wasn't willing to compromise in return, it was all me me me. In the end I felt unable to turn down the PhD offer, so we decided on an LDR. I found I was much happier in the north, and I met someone else and ended the LDR - at this point (when it was too late) he became incredibly regretful and wanted to move up north to be with me. He's now dating someone who likes living down south with him, so I guess it all worked out ok.
Thornton Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 A career in academia gives is highly stressed, takes up most of your time, and is completely financially and employment unstable for quite a few years. If it's a calling, fine, but I wouldn't glorify it because the truth is it's a tough job which can fling you from place to place on a whim with inappropriate financial rewards compared to much more menial 9-5's in management. I admit, a career in academia is highly stressful and you work a lot of hours for less money that you'd get in industry, but it's also very rewarding and flexible - you're very autonomous, you get good holidays and you can work from home a lot of the time, so if you have kids you can be with them a lot more while still earning money. You get to travel a decent amount too. Also, as a mother you can earn a good salary from teaching part-time - my university pays £40($60) per hour for teachers, and you can also teach online courses for distance learning students from the comfort of your own home. Anyway, a PhD doesn't just qualify you for a job in academia - many companies recruit PhD graduates for high-level roles, and you can get a job doing research in industry which is usually quite well paid. Plus, sometimes doing a PhD in itself is a calling, even if you never use it.
Citizen Drawn Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 I admit, a career in academia is highly stressful and you work a lot of hours for less money that you'd get in industry, but it's also very rewarding and flexible - you're very autonomous, you get good holidays and you can work from home a lot of the time, so if you have kids you can be with them a lot more while still earning money. You get to travel a decent amount too. Also, as a mother you can earn a good salary from teaching part-time - my university pays £40($60) per hour for teachers, and you can also teach online courses for distance learning students from the comfort of your own home. Anyway, a PhD doesn't just qualify you for a job in academia - many companies recruit PhD graduates for high-level roles, and you can get a job doing research in industry which is usually quite well paid. Plus, sometimes doing a PhD in itself is a calling, even if you never use it. You actually take those holidays? Damn I'm in the wrong place. Agree about the industry jobs but this is very dependent upon the PhD. I think, on the whole it's a positive experience, but it is a tough one too.
Trialbyfire Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 Ok, to answer a few questions... I am 22, he is 33. Yes, I can do a PhD here, but the employment rate is near 0% (into an academic university department). None of the (6) universities in my country are ranked in the top 100, and I would have a pretty good chance of getting into one that is.. I'm talking about Oxford, Cambridge... I'm not talking about a USA programme - as I understand it your tertiary system is different than most places in the world. It will be 3 years. I havent talked to him about this recently because we have been so stressed.. It will just fire up the stress.. Long distance is an absolute last resort in my mind. I would find it horrible, unbearable. Especially at this current time in our relationship as we are going through some trust issues and working on our relationship together. Hope this helps?At 22, career, bar none.
Author hendersongirl Posted July 28, 2009 Author Posted July 28, 2009 Thanks again everyone. I am aware of the pros and cons of academia (my area has no industry btw), and I know it is what I want to do. As for being at different places - no we aren't actually, if anything I am in more of a hurry to have kids, I would have them now if he wanted to, and do my PhD part time. As it happens we have agreed to have them after our PhDs - in maybe 4-5 years or so. Ideally(!!) he would have a position and I would have a part-time position by then, in the same city (in NZ that means the same university - out of two which teach his area). I have no desire to travel, it would be solely for the PhD. And he is starting his PhD next year too, with the same goal of entering academia. We are actually in perfectly compatible stages of our lives. Citizen Drawn - thanks for your input. I have heard that (about publications being more important), and I am already working on getting published. I've also heard that it ISNT true, and at the end of the day its the letterhead on your degree that matters... It's so hard to know which advice to take. As for supervisors, in the specific area i want there are no big names at my university - I could tweak my topic so it is within a different context and have one of the biggest names in this area. This is what I planned to do, and was happy about it, had discussed it with potential supervisors and everything. Then a couple more people said "No - DEFINITELY its about the name of the university" and got me worried all over again. Is it really not a big deal? EVERYTHING else lends me to stay here. And also - yes, he may be being selfish in demanding to stay here, but if I demand to move isnt that equally selfish?!! I respect that he is sick of moving all over the place and wants to stay near his aging parents, and his best supervisors are here. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.
MN randomguy Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 I agree with one poster a few posts back about the level of commitment. You've been dating for 3 years. Giving up your career for a BF is different than giving up your career for a husband. However, Don't know your financial situation or if education is much more heavily subsidized than the states. But, don't create a situation where 90% + of the male population can't afford your student loans and have a family with you. If that's your long-term plan and what you really want to do. In other words. Maybe its not about the school. Don't waste your youth with a guy who you know isn't ever going to man-up and be your husband.
Citizen Drawn Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 Citizen Drawn - thanks for your input. I have heard that (about publications being more important), and I am already working on getting published. I've also heard that it ISNT true, and at the end of the day its the letterhead on your degree that matters... It's so hard to know which advice to take. As for supervisors, in the specific area i want there are no big names at my university - I could tweak my topic so it is within a different context and have one of the biggest names in this area. This is what I planned to do, and was happy about it, had discussed it with potential supervisors and everything. Then a couple more people said "No - DEFINITELY its about the name of the university" and got me worried all over again. Letterheads don't matter in academia publications do. If you want to know this categorically, go to Oxford/Cambridge site and look at the backgrounds of some of the academics. I can guarantee you will find some that have come from Universities you have not heard of. However, if you are talking industry wide outside of your field then the better university will be more advantageous. Think about it for a second, a research/academic institution wants to employ you, do they employ you because you have a degree from oxford, or do they employ you because they've heard of your work? I can The latter will count for a lot more, plus if they've heard of your supervisor you will get bonus points. The other thing is that you will no doubt meet many of these people at conferences anyway. The other thing I'm sure you will have an opportunity to do is spend some time at other institutions. If your supervisor is top in the area all you have to do is ask. I got to got to all over
Author hendersongirl Posted July 28, 2009 Author Posted July 28, 2009 Thanks Citizen, that is really helpful! The supervisor I have lined up here is retiring soon, but he has said he would love to supervise me anyway. My second (and third) supervisor won't be anywhere near top of the game. Still a bit of thinking to do, but thanks it is great to know that it won't be entirely futile if I stay here. MN randomguy - read my above posts, we ARE informally engaged, and anyway I don't care about marriage per se - lifelong commitment does not need it. As for financial situation - I am NOT going to choose my partner based on how much money he earns!!! And I will take care of my own student loan, thanks very much.
boldjack Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 HG, I have always found you to be a pretty level0headed person, from your other posts. So I'm sure that if you both are sure about your relationship and you are decided on further study, abroad, the TWO of you will work out a plan, that fits your situation. What time constraint are you under?
sb129 Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 Hey HG, I would still choose career myself, but then again I was definitely NOT interested in settling down and having kids at 22, and had such itchy feet I would have jumped at any chance to get out of NZ (as it was, I went anyway). So we are different in that respect, so its difficult for me to give you advice, as my own personal experiences/ feelings come into it. I do wonder though, I am a very different person at 32 than I was at 22 (well, the same but priorities have changed, now I have settled down and am having a family and thats great) so I wonder if perhaps when you are 32 with primary school aged children and more limited job prospects, your priorities may change again, and you regret not doing things a different way? Just wanting to put a different spin on it, thats all. Good luck with everything.
Author hendersongirl Posted July 28, 2009 Author Posted July 28, 2009 sb129 - Thanks. However, surely there is an equal chance of regretting my decision either way? I don't think there is anything inherently better in going overseas. I've travelled a bit, and everywhere seems much the same to me... Totally uncultured of me I know, it just isn't my thing. boldjack - I have a couple of months to decide, that is when some countries' scholarship applications close. If I really can't decide I can always do a Masters here next year, which gives me that extra year. I'd rather decide now though, as I'd rather fast-track straight to PhD.
carhill Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 If the connection is there, it'll span the time and distance
sb129 Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 Hey chick- whatever floats your boat. As i said, good luck with your decision, and while we may have a different outlook on life< I won't judge you whatever you decide to do.
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