butcher's hook Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 That said, last time I checked people generally have the ability to read (books, magazines, newspapers, etc. - this info is all there) and this stuff is also all over the news, in movies, on tv, in some commercials...add to that, people generally have the ability to THINK - so I don't think you have a valid argument. That's not important that you don't think I have a valid argument. Instead what would be much more beneficial to this discussion and to support your stance is for you to take a stab at why there is no pevalent problems of obesity in European and South American countries? Have you been to Europe and South America?
butcher's hook Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 Here is a chart of obesity wordwide http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/o/obesity/stats-country.htm Most of Europe falls under the 15% mark.USA is #1 and in the 30% mark. Even Canada is equivalent to Europe. Some South American countries don't even factor in at all. You think it's just poor management on people's part? you think the system we are in has NO barings on obesity? Think again. Your attitude is what is arrogant and it is also ignorant at the same time.
Adunaphel Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 My guess as to why obesity is less of a problem in Europe is that in Europe quality food is less expensive and low quality food is more expensive than in the US. Personally I'd love to get decent-sized MacDonald's servings. I weigh less than 110 pounds and whenever I exit a MacDonald's I have the feeling that I spent too much for what I ate.
butcher's hook Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 My guess as to why obesity is less of a problem in Europe is that in Europe quality food is less expensive and low quality food is more expensive than in the US. That's a good guess Adunaphel, you can only serve "organic" so far until you start using up all of the world's natural resources and in turn deplete your resources. But yes, definitely less chemicals will cause less negative outcomes.
lora22 Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 That's not important that you don't think I have a valid argument. Instead what would be much more beneficial to this discussion and to support your stance is for you to take a stab at why there is no pevalent problems of obesity in European and South American countries? Have you been to Europe and South America? I agree with the points you made about portion size, that this is a US problem, etc. The US in general has issues that other countries don't have, in regards to the me me me attitudes, instant gratification, having it all (look at the economy)...My point was that just because something is available, or even culturally prevalent, doesn't mean that that is an excuse for overeating and not exercising - because there is so much information EVERYWHERE about what people should be doing/eating, and what is healthy. Just because I go to a restaurant that serves enormous portions doesn't mean I have to mindlessly eat it just because it's there. Most likely I wouldn't be able to eat it all in one sitting anyways, but even if I COULD, that doesn't mean I can't stop and think about that article I read in the paper/clip I saw on the news/book I read/magazine article/etc. about portion sizes or whatever.
Bayern Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 Yes, but do not make the mistake of thinking western European countries show all of Europe. Hungary as a serious problem with overweight individuals.
lora22 Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 Your attitude is what is arrogant and it is also ignorant at the same time. No, I just believe that people have the ability to think.
Trialbyfire Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 No, I just believe that people have the ability to think.Yes, think and put thoughts to action. "Da man holding me down" attitude, is self harming and so is the enabling of this attitude.
butcher's hook Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 I agree with the points you made about portion size, that this is a US problem, etc. The US in general has issues that other countries don't have, in regards to the me me me attitudes, instant gratification, having it all (look at the economy)...My point was that just because something is available, or even culturally prevalent, doesn't mean that that is an excuse for overeating and not exercising - because there is so much information EVERYWHERE about what people should be doing/eating, and what is healthy. Just because I go to a restaurant that serves enormous portions doesn't mean I have to mindlessly eat it just because it's there. Most likely I wouldn't be able to eat it all in one sitting anyways, but even if I COULD, that doesn't mean I can't stop and think about that article I read in the paper/clip I saw on the news/book I read/magazine article/etc. about portion sizes or whatever. Yes well you are one of the fortunate ones. I am one of the fortunate ones. I don't think it's fair to look down upon all the others who struggle with breaking out of patterns that for many years they thought was a "normal" pattern. That's really my point. While I do have to watch my consumption vs activity levels especially now that I am getting older, when I was younger I never had to worry about that. I ate whatever I wanted whenever I wanted and it didn't seem to matter much. Not everyone is blessed with this reality. In America for many decades it has beens stipulated that certain ways of life, be it food or activity choices were ok. Over the last 10 yrs or so there has been a lot of literature and infromation on obesity and a "war declared against the bulge" if you will, so now people who have been thinking for decades that what they were doing was the normal thing to do, are faced with having to rework out their patterns because the paths they were on were completely destructive to them. Do you know how hard it is to reprogram someone to make significan lifestyle choices that were thought of as "normal" for decades past? It's not easy at all. Do you think obese people really look in the mirror and say to themselves "yeah I can work with this I don't look so bad" It is so far gone over to the other side that for many it seems like an enormous mountain to climb, it can be scary and the psychological implications of that are deep. It's easy for someone like you or me to say "well just take care of what you eat and try to do things right from now on" but when someone is that far gone it is a very long and scary road they have to embark on of extremely hard work and deep psychological changes. Sure there is lots of literature out there now to enlighten them but what about the deep seated patterns that have to be broken in a society that is still surrounded by tons of toxic options day in day out? I think it's unfair to make generalizations of people and not see that they are victims of a system that helped to make them that way and that now capitalizes on trying to make them better, but the years of deep scar is now done and pretty much cemented.
butcher's hook Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 No, I just believe that people have the ability to think. Ok and you have the ability to think, why do you think obesity is only pevalent in the USA and not Europe or South America?
alphamale Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 Why would you date someone you've met who is overweight? By this I mean 40+ lbs more than a healthy range for their height/build. no, my max would be around 20 lbs overweight....
lora22 Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 I'm not sure if I did in this thread - my biggest point is that there is info and people can think - but I do generalize in my attitude toward this problem, you're right about that. I do think that low-income families are victims of this system. Of course they have access to all this info, and go run around outside just like the next person - but buying the right foods isn't always an option for many of those families. Again, generalizing.
fral945 Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 Why would you date someone you've met who is overweight? By this I mean 40+ lbs more than a healthy range for their height/build. Personally I find it difficult to initially be attracted to this, but I'd like to pick LS's brains to find some reasons. I could think of several reasons: 1) You could be very attracted to a person's face (even if they are fat). A body can be changed by diet and exercise, but you can't change an ugly face. 2) Your situation provides you limited options - In a small town, for example, the majority of skinny women are teenagers. By the time most women in a small town hit their 20s/early 30s they are generally overweight to obese. City slickers have more options because in cities you (generally speaking) have more young professionals who are more educated and a little more conscious about eating right and exercising. 3) You like their personality and values 4) You were deceived by an online profile (happened to me twice ) 4) You're a closet chubby chaser I've actually been dating an overweight woman for almost 4 months now. For me it is somewhat of an experiment to see if it will succeed. I have had very little luck with thin women. It hasn't been a matter of a lack of physical attraction (as I am in very good physical shape and decent enough looking). It is more that our personalities, values, outlook on life, etc. don't seem to mesh. I honestly find I have better connections emotionally with less attractive (and usually overweight) women.
lora22 Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 Ok and you have the ability to think' date=' why do you think obesity is only pevalent in the USA and not Europe or South America?[/quote'] LoL I don't disagree that it's a cultural thing at all! I just very much believe in personal responsibility and accountability, and yes, I'm very stubborn on that attitude. I went to a social justice oriented university, so I do know the other side, and I have heard all the arguments about why I'm wrong to have that attitude.
Thaddeus Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 Ok and you have the ability to think' date=' why do you think obesity is only pevalent in the USA and not Europe or South America?[/quote']Ariadne made a good point about exactly that earlier in the thread:Also, people in places where the problem of obesity is not pervasive, work less hours, have more time to enjoy life, exercise, and prepare meals, and usually less problems with depression.There's also the element that's sometimes called "the French paradox." Heavier, creamier foods (yummy too!) but smaller portions and a serving (or two, or more) of decent red wine.
butcher's hook Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 LoL I don't disagree that it's a cultural thing at all! I just very much believe in personal responsibility and accountability, and yes, I'm very stubborn on that attitude. I went to a social justice oriented university, so I do know the other side, and I have heard all the arguments about why I'm wrong to have that attitude. Sorry Lora by no means did I intend to zero you out on a personal level, you were providing good arguments to my stance and I engaged in discussing things with you. But it was not a personal thing. You are absolutely entitled to see this as you will. I guess I just feel bad for those people who struggle. When I look at the bigger picture I see many faults with our society and though I don't believe in victimizing those that center around doing destructive things to themselves with no recognition of selfinvolvelment, I cannot pay a blind eye to the reality of what the bigger picture is and how it's easier for people to lead down destructive paths when there are so many avenues that facilitate demise. Here is an example of what I mean, I told someone that my diet consists of a Mediterranean diet, they of course thought it was some crazy new fad that makes you shed lbs like crazy. Instead what I explained was that a Mediterranean diet consists of natural carbs, veggies, meats (mostly fish and poultry) and oils and breads, dairy, and rice in moderation and fruits.Nothing new, nothing special, nothing crazy, just a well balanced meal of natural foods. How crazy is it that something as normal as that is considered some "secret to a better way of life", when really this is what we should be naturally consuming? If you grew up eating like this this is what you would know. It is concerning that in this day and age people still don't understand what our bodies naturally need as fuel to stay healthy this is due to years of bad programming. But you see even living in north american my parents would categorize junk us anything you eat that is not made at home. I was fortunate, others not so much. That's not to say we never had McDonalds growing up or take out pizza or what have you but that was on occasion it was not the norm. Those eating patterns will follow you through to adulthood. Some people not that fortunate. I used to work with a woman who was obese. She was probably 5,4" and weighed around 200lbs she was only 22, and I saw the way she ate every day for lunch she never brought lunch it was always take out. Her mother never cooked at home growing up, they always ate out she came from a very wealthy family executive parents. I felt really bad for her, she did not have someone who cared enough about her to protect her from the harms of foods out there that are just there to make a buck and you fat.
BobSacamento Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 As a person who was obese before I can say the big difference with my diet now is portions. I used to be 250+ and now I'm 168 lbs. Before I'd eat what had to be 2800 cals a day, God knows on the weekend where I'd drink 10 beers a night. Now I eat 1200 - 1600 a day and I am never hungry. I don't even excercise lol. This has had an impact on my dating though. I struggle with feeling entitled to a woman in the same shape as I am.
butcher's hook Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 As a person who was obese before I can say the big difference with my diet now is portions. Thank you! That's my point. Portions don't just "happen" at home on our own in North America they are miscalculated everywhere you go. This is what we have been exposed to from a very early age. It is ALL around us. Having ice cream in Venezuela, for example, is one scoop of ice cream it is not an option of a tower of 2 3 scoops or a banana split. It is one cone with one scoop of ice cream. That is ALL you need to satisfy your sweet tooth. We live in a society BUILT on decadence and the luxuries of extreme comfort and then wonder why we are all overweight, depressed and never happy.
Trialbyfire Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 Oh please... Fitness and health have been promoted by the medical community now for decades. Instead of a decrease in obesity, there's been an increase. Using the pathos appeal of not knowing, is only enabling the practice of victimhood. To illustrate this point, why do you suppose that places like Nauru, have a 78+% of adult obesity? It's not a place where "da man" keeps anyone down by putting a McDonald's or Burger King on every corner.
butcher's hook Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 I'd rather not suppose, I'd rather state facts: According to a study, Nauru is a country predisposed to obesity. Dating back to its inception as a country, obesity has been viewed as a sign of wealth and prosperity to Pacific Islanders. This idea has not changed over time, which is a main cause for the extremely high obesity rate in Nauru. http://tojou.wetpaint.com/page/Obesity+Trends+by+Geographic+Location?t=anon At least they don't contradict themselves as a society, they are what they say they are. Respect to them for being who they claim to be. Fitness and health have been promoted by the medical community now for decades. Instead of a decrease in obesity, there's been an increase. Using the pathos appeal of not knowing, is only enabling the practice of victimhood. Because you can't come in and expect decades of misused infromation and bad personal practices to change over night because the "medical community" (you mean the business world is more like it) NOW decides it's time to make a change.
butcher's hook Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 The "medical communicty" is a money grabbing business. I have more faith in a witch doctor than I do in the so called "medical community"
Isolde Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 I think a big thing is portion control. I am not ashamed to say I eat some junk food but I keep it small and infrequent.
Ariadne Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 Portions don't just "happen" at home on our own in North America they are miscalculated everywhere you go. This is what we have been exposed to from a very early age. It is ALL around us. Look at the children's school lunches also. They are the most greasy and unhealthy. That's what they feed the kids.
Isolde Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 Europeans just don't seem to have the same "good food/bad food" dichotomy that Americans do. Ironically, taking pleasure in food is the easiest way to eat sensibly.
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