A Different Perspective

[Reggie]

Positive feed back for this old SOB? Thanks. I like kids, dogs and old people(especially when people are watching).

[complicatedlife]

Well because you stated it in your very first post on this forum. I honestly think you know it is wrong and dont want to face your actions thus saying I was attacking when I was just restating facts as you said them.

 

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t131756/

 

Why don't you start another post and stop threadjacking? I know very well what I wrote. And I DID sleep with him. An entire night. Things happened which are between him and I. But there was no sex. I didn't care to get into all the semantics and it was easier to just explain it that way. Additionally, there may be dates that are off and small things that I changed to protect his, his ex-wife's, and his children's privacy. Furthermore, whether I slept with him or not at that time didn't matter because I did ENGAGE IN THE INTIMATE ACT THAT YOU ARE SPEAKING OF after he went back home. I can certainly admit when I am wrong. So....sorry, can't give you any points here.

[complicatedlife]

If I were having sex, dating, and emotionally engaged with someone's spouse and wrote about it on LS I would expect to be called names and I would expect to be told to cross my legs, and I would expect that someone would feel sorry for my children. Because, even though it hasn't been communicated with 'dew drops' and 'sugar candy' it is the truth. I have no business having sex with someone's spouse simply because I choose to. I have no business acting irresponsibly when I am a mother. I should keep my legs crossed if I cannot open them responsibly.

 

We can love many people. Love is first a state of being and then tempered by choices. We can deny ourselves that 'piece of cake'. We can deny ourselves someone else's spouse. Choice.

 

And doing that makes putting someone down okay? Sorry - can't get with that. I don't go out of my way to be rude and insulting unless it is first done to me. You can chastise with love and kindness. Furthermore, people don't come here to get chastised.

 

But please do that if you think that's the appropriate way to set someone on the "right path".

[complicatedlife]

I agree that some of this stuff is insulting.'

However, the example given of an approprite response contains one clear fallacy, the notion that the OM/OW is "only hurting yourself". If that was the case, I do not think BSs that have expierienced this sever etrauma, often described as rivaling or exceeding the loss of a loved one or a sexual assault, would be so upset over the OM/OW's actions.

Perhaps you have never been the victim of this type of abuse. So, you do not understand the extent of the trauma. That would explain why you feel it is okay to conceal it from the one who is continuing to be victimized.

But, I don't think there is any real debate over the fact that one participating in a conspiracy to hurt another, in this case a BS, is doing more thean merely hurting him/herself.

I think this lack of understanding may explain why soe of the posters advocating non-disclosure avoided the question posed re consideration of the BS's mental and physical health.

 

Well, yes, thanks - of course it is. Who would want someone to speak in that way to their daughter or sister or cousin or aunt or mother or grandmother?

 

You make a good and valid point, so let me make one thing clear:

An affair hurts everyone that is involved, and on ocassion, people who are not directly involved.

 

Additionally, in no way does my saying that mean that I don't think others are being hurt; the example I gave was specifically for the OW - after the person soaked that in, then you can talk about others being hurt and maybe the person would have a better understanding of the concept because in emotional situations, some of us tend to take care of "self" first - because we need to. Hope this makes sense.

[complicatedlife]

Neither group of people is without blemish, and it behooves all of us to realize that.

Exactly my point.

[whichwayisup]

Why don't you start another post and stop threadjacking? I know very well what I wrote. And I DID sleep with him. An entire night. Things happened which are between him and I. But there was no sex. I didn't care to get into all the semantics and it was easier to just explain it that way. Additionally, there may be dates that are off and small things that I changed to protect his, his ex-wife's, and his children's privacy. Furthermore, whether I slept with him or not at that time didn't matter because I did ENGAGE IN THE INTIMATE ACT THAT YOU ARE SPEAKING OF after he went back home. I can certainly admit when I am wrong. So....sorry, can't give you any points here

This isn't directed at you, but to be honest the last bunch of pages and posts have ALL been offtopic, fighting and aruging, all which has NOTHING to do with the original post and what the original poster was talking about. I doubt she's coming back so really, what's the point of continuing at all on her thread?

[Adunaphel]

As this thread has already been hijacked beyond measure, I thought I'd add another off topic post to say that I really like GEL's and complicatedlife's posts (even if for different reasons).

[complicatedlife]

This isn't directed at you, but to be honest the last bunch of pages and posts have ALL been offtopic, fighting and aruging, all which has NOTHING to do with the original post and what the original poster was talking about. I doubt she's coming back so really, what's the point of continuing at all on her thread?

I agree with you 100%. This is why I keep trying to re-direct and mentioning the word "threadjack" when I realize it's happening and I am participating in it. You can lead a horse....you know the drill!

[NoIDidn't]

It is also my opinion that the OP didn't do anything wrong. That is my opinion.

 

I feel more like I'm "defending" (if that's the right word) the basic premise of what I see LoveShack to be, which is a place to voice opinions. And some of those opinions can be pretty odd - to me .

 

When a post is made and you ASK for opinions - you'd better be prepared for a bunch of negative ones. 'cuz you are definitely going to get 'em!!

 

Silk

 

You get no disagreement on this. The OP did ask for others' opinions.

 

But I don't see where she asked to be attacked for her own. This is where my problem with the OW response to her posts lies. Attacking her marriage, her communication style with her H, and the like. But it looks like its dying down in this thread (thankfully), so I won't mention it again.

 

 

(who me? i'm innocent)

[NoIDidn't]

I thank everyone for this discussion. It has given me new insight that will help me if presented with a situation like this ever again.

 

First off, I’d like to say, my husband read a good chunk of this thread last night. He found some posts amusing, a majority of them interesting & a few of them irritating.

 

Surprising for me, the p*sswhipped comment amused him while the digs at our marriage royally ticked him off. (I thought the first would tick him off more, that whole male ego thing) Overall though, he said it was “a good read”, but one men should keep to a minimum because a woman’s mind is a scary place. (Now that gave me a good laugh)

 

As for his talk with Tom, well let’s just say he won’t be going back on the x-mas card list anytime soon.

 

When asked why he told Lisa that we knew, his only response was that he thought she would be less p*ssed at him if she thought we knew.

 

We also learn that he came over that night because his boss had just informed him that they had found his replacement & that the process of letting him go had begun. He came to my husband knowing he would figure out the truth & hoping we would tell Lisa. Or as Tom put it, “You and Cat could have calmed her down for me.”

 

My husband got ticked and ranted a bit at this point. Saying to Tom “Did you want me to sign the divorce papers for you too?” to which Tom responded "I was stuck and you’re better at this kind of stuff."

 

My husband also addressed why in the world Tom thought it okay to try and get invited our holiday party. Tom said he told his OW/wife that there was no way in hell that we would even speak to her anytime soon. She apparently thought we needed to “get over it because Tom was her man now.” (I have no clue if she actually said that because this is coming from Tom, a man with a not so great track record.)

 

And before my husband ended the conversation he asked the big one, "Was it all at least worth it?"

 

Tom laughed & said "She f*cking left me. Took my kid and moved back in with her mom and dad. Probably having a good laugh with Lisa by now about how they both f*cked me over."

 

My husband said Tom spent the next half hour complaining about his new wife, his ex-wife, child support & Lisa’s new BF before my husband finally had enough & left.

 

Overall, my husband said Tom look like cr*p & his words, not mine “You know how ***** (our daughter) wanted that dancing game a couple years back and then when she got it, she whined for a month because it sucked? Well, it was a lot like that, only not as cute.”

 

In the end my husband said it is a “closed book” now & he has no interest in being friends with Tom, that “Tom made his bed, now he has to lye in it.”

 

I also want to say thank you to everyone who participated in this discussion. I have learned a lot about the mindset of those in the midst of affairs, how they may react to others & it will likely affect how I approach any future situation. You have all informed me & even though it doesn’t change my view on affairs, I do have a better understanding of it all.

 

 

Wow, thanks for the update!

 

I had a visitor yesterday, an old friend who ended up in the exact same situation (almost) as your friend "Lisa". I was very saddened to hear her tale of how her H had fathered a child with another woman and hid it without telling her any of it. She found out after he left and her lawyer was verifying income for child support. He never told her about the OW and child. But he did tell some friends, and surprisingly, she still speaks to the W of the guy he told.

 

I totally understand your feelings on the matter. I can't say how I would have handled it, because even the situation I mention happened over the last two years and yesterday was the first time I've heard of it.

 

It really angered my H that hers treated her and their children the way he has been.

 

And, while I know its unpopular to tell the truth around here sometimes, I think "Tom" is telling the truth about his feelings now. I think his new W was demanding to be accepted into the fold. Its a common ploy after they "steal" someone's H. Its like they expect to steal the remainder of their life too. But since she already had his child, she didn't need to steal his children. I am sure I will get a lot of heat for saying this, but its true. I've seen the "you're my man now" syndrome play out too many times IRL to deny it just because somebody might get their feelings hurt.

 

I'm glad your H and you got the closure you wanted from the friendship by speaking to Tom. I hope you stay around LS (not necessarily just in this forum).

[donnamaybe]

Silk

 

You get no disagreement on this. The OP did ask for others' opinions.

 

But I don't see where she asked to be attacked for her own. This is where my problem with the OW response to her posts lies. Attacking her marriage, her communication style with her H, and the like. But it looks like its dying down in this thread (thankfully), so I won't mention it again.

 

 

(who me? i'm innocent)

 

THAT is EXACTLY where the problems began. When someone started picking at the OP, making hateful assumptions and statements about her marriage, her husband, and the way she treats him.

[whichwayisup]

Tom is an idiot, that's the truth of it. Seems he's blaming everyone for his problems but himself.

[bentnotbroken]

Sounds like Tom needs to give his "little" head a break from thinking and let his "big" head be more than an ornament at the end of his neck.

[NoIDidn't]

Tom is an idiot, that's the truth of it. Seems he's blaming everyone for his problems but himself.

 

Yeah, we should have ALL been blaming Tom for this mess! LOL.

 

Seriously, I found it interesting that he told Cat's H that he told his W that they knew about the A to take the heat off of himself.

 

Can you say "selfish", "entitiled", and not at all enlightened?

 

Now he wants to start telling the truth. Did he really think that Cat's H wanted to stand around and listen to a grown man whine? Maybe that's why the new W left too?

 

In all these relationships involving Tom, I hope he learns some basic math: he is the "lowest" common denominator.

[Gamine]

And doing that makes putting someone down okay? Sorry - can't get with that. I don't go out of my way to be rude and insulting unless it is first done to me. You can chastise with love and kindness. Furthermore, people don't come here to get chastised.

 

But please do that if you think that's the appropriate way to set someone on the "right path".

 

 

I am not here to get you on the 'right path'. That is something you do on your own... or not.

[Caitlyn]

Thanks again everyone. And to the person who asked if I would be sticking around LV, yeah, I think I might pop in while having my morning coffee now and then. Night all.

[Reggie]

You handled yourself very well, Caitlyn. Did a nice job of asserting your position and clarifying/rebutting the misconceptions that were put forth.

And, it was an intereting new issue/topic.

[Reggie]

Why don't you start another post and stop threadjacking? I know very well what I wrote. And I DID sleep with him. An entire night. Things happened which are between him and I. But there was no sex. I didn't care to get into all the semantics and it was easier to just explain it that way. Additionally, there may be dates that are off and small things that I changed to protect his, his ex-wife's, and his children's privacy. Furthermore, whether I slept with him or not at that time didn't matter because I did ENGAGE IN THE INTIMATE ACT THAT YOU ARE SPEAKING OF after he went back home. I can certainly admit when I am wrong. So....sorry, can't give you any points here.

 

All night scrabble game? Who won?

[White Flower]

This comment stirs a very interesting thought process within me. Is there such a "trust" as you suggest here, to which a friend can bind another friend unilaterally, or does it need to happen by agreement?

 

For example, if Tom had started with: "I need to talk to you and I need you to keep it confidential from my wife - and yours, for that matter," and then after receiving mutual agreement, had confessed to having the affair, that would be one thing. (Although in my case, right after he told me it would have to be confidential from my own wife, I would have interrupted before he could reveal anything, and drawn some boundaries defining my marriage and my sense of right and wrong, and the types of things I would and would not agree to keep in confidence, so he could consider that before going on.)

 

On the other hand, if Tom had said, essentially, "I've been having an affair, and by the way, now that you know that, you can't tell my wife or yours," without mutual agreement beforehand, can Tom expect OP's H not to "betray" this trust? Can Tom - simply by dumping a big, important piece of information on OP's H - unilaterally bind the OP's H not to reveal what he has told, without mutual agreement? In this scenario, for me, the answer is "no."

 

And in either scenario, I then consider: wouldn't there be SOME threshold, beyond which it would be wrong to keep certain kinds of confessions confidential? Tom confesses to a murder... wouldn't we all agree that we should not be complicit in keeping this information secret? Tom confesses to molesting a child - again, how could you possibly think that you should keep the secret and "mind your own business," right? Would anyone disagree with me that this would not be a confession I should feel bound to keep secret by the "trust of our friendship?"

 

So somewhere, there is a threshold that divides the things Tom could tell me that I might be willing to keep secret ("I crashed my car and had to spend $1800 to have it fixed while my wife was out of town, but now I have to cover my tracks until I can pay off that credit card....") and those things that I would feel almost duty-bound to do something about (murder, molestation, etc...)

 

So in the region between those extremes is a big gray-area. How do I decide where the threshold is; where do I draw the line between the things I will keep secret, and the things I decide I will not - the things I must not? Is it "my business" to take action if Tom is molesting a child? His own child? If he has spent the college fund that he and his wife agreed was for a child's education? Does the litmus test hinge on whether there is a victim to Tom's actions? How devastating do the victims injuries need to be? Does the victim need to know they are a victim?

 

So for me, the idea that a friend who dumps a confidence on me deserves my unquestioned trust and that I should "mind my own business" and not "betray that trust" is not at all crystal clear. How badly does a victim have to be injured - and does it matter if the victim knows it yet - before my sense of right and wrong can and/or should take precedence over the trust of friendship?

 

This struggle is why I think it was wrong of Tom to burden the OP's H with such a load, and for Tom to assume (if he really did, as many posters in this thread seem to take as gospel) that the OP's H was bound to hold that information in confidence, even from his own wife.

 

AND - in all of that, Tom didn't even "trust" the OP's H with the truth in the first place - he laid out a bunch of half-truths and lies that just dug his hole even deeper. It doesn't seem like Tom was genuinely, honestly seeking advice and counsel on his situation, as he didn't even offer his trust in the OP's H, enough to tell him the truth of the situation in the first place. Well, I guess I'm not saying anything new or controversial here, but it doesn't sound like ol' Tom is that trustworthy a guy...

Nice post. It reminds me of the big ending scene of To Kill a Mockingbird or even the Letter from Birmingham Jail. Very many truths thoughtfully considered and you are right on all counts. I bolded the part that made the most sense according to my post. If Tom had any smarts at all, he would have stated it the way you did in the bolded paragraph. And if Cat's H had thought about it, he would have interjected his polite interuption as you would have and asked Tom to stop because of not wanting to hold anything back from his wife.

 

All the rest is food for thought on a very different level. Affairs happen every single day of the week, in every office, in every neighborhood, in every mall and in every restaurant. After having been involved in one, I can spot an affair immediately. Maybe I should start a thread on the subject but I won't digress too much here. Yet, since knowing how often As happen, I don't believe we can compare affairs to molestation, murder, or rape for that matter. The pain may be devasting to the BS, but I do not believe the devastation is comparable to the aforementioned.

 

Otherwise a great post Trimmer. I would be honored to have a H who respected his W the way you respect yours.

[Trimmer]

All the rest is food for thought on a very different level. Affairs happen every single day of the week, in every office, in every neighborhood, in every mall and in every restaurant. After having been involved in one, I can spot an affair immediately. Maybe I should start a thread on the subject but I won't digress too much here. Yet, since knowing how often As happen, I don't believe we can compare affairs to molestation, murder, or rape for that matter. The pain may be devasting to the BS, but I do not believe the devastation is comparable to the aforementioned.

I hear you and I completely agree. Let me be clear, because I don't want to spark one of those 'which is worse' arguments... ( "Is an affair as bad as murder???" ) I used murder and molestation as intentionally extreme examples to demonstrate that there really isn't an absolute, inviolable "trust of friendship" that can never be breached. Over here, at this end of the spectrum, we have these horrible things that nobody would dream of keeping secret, then at the other end of the spectrum, we have things (my crashed car example) that most folks would probably be willing to keep under wraps and help see each other through...

 

My point being not that affairs are like murder or molestation, but specifically that they exist somewhere in that gray middle ground between those obvious extremes, which is why different people will see this trust/betrayal thing differently with respect to Tom's (bumbling) revelation of his affair to the OP's H.

 

I just wanted to explain my own musings over how we approach that decision - what influences help us to decide whether we should (or must) break that silence: the existence of a "victim," the nature of the relationship we might have with the victim and/or a duty of trust we may feel with him/her, the degree of damage done, even whether the victim knows he/she is a victim yet...

 

So please understand - it was not my intention to equate or juxtapose an affair with murder, molestation, etc. I was specifically placing them at different places along a very broad spectrum.

 

I would be honored to have a H who respected his W the way you respect yours.

That's a very kind sentiment. The state I'm in tonight - that comment touched me. Thank you.

[In_Repair]

So Tom actually said that he told her you knew about the affair in order to take heat off of him? How does that work? Did he think that he would look his wife in the eyes and say "sure honey, I cheated... but caitlyn knew about it, and that's even worse... right?". Caitlyn, is Tom a complete idiot? Were you best friends with Rainman? Also, the idea that he only told your husband because he expected you to do his dirty work and tell her yourself... then why didn't he actually admit to it if that was the plan? What, he wanted you to tell his wife that he was thinking about an affair? That's all he admitted to that night, right? You explain that part away by saying that he assumed you would "figure it out". Wow, that's some deep thinking and elaborate plan making for such an idiot...

 

Caitlyn, you really did not do anything "wrong" here, but IMO you acted out of emotion and ignorance. You weren't trying to hurt anyone, but you and your husband freaked out and jumped the gun. Whether you want to admit to it or not, neither of you acted like Toms friend here. You acted like his guardian, and forced him to do your version of the "right" thing. The right thing would have been to end the affair and then rebuild the marriage. The problem is that Tom was in the "affair fog" and needed you(as his friend) to help him see the correct path... which BTW, was NOT immediately telling his wife before he had an opportunity to really think this thing through. You did not know about the other factors or any specifics regarding the affair back then, so you can't use them to justify your poor actions as Tom's friend during that time. This whole thing might have worked out completely differently than it did. All of these OW/OM haters can blow sunshine up your butt all they want, and you can use their twisted comments as justification if you need to, but the truth is that you were just as ****ty of a friend to Tom as he was to you.

 

I'm sorry if you view that as a personal attack.

[donnamaybe]

I'm sorry if you view that as a personal attack.

 

No you're not.

 

And I think you're dead wrong, as do the majority of people who have posted in this thread.

[OWoman]

And' date=' while I know its unpopular to tell the truth around here sometimes, I think "Tom" is telling the truth about his feelings now. I think his new W was demanding to be accepted into the fold. [b'] Its a common ploy after they "steal" someone's H. Its like they expect to steal the remainder of their life too. [/b] But since she already had his child, she didn't need to steal his children. I am sure I will get a lot of heat for saying this, but its true. I've seen the "you're my man now" syndrome play out too many times IRL to deny it just because somebody might get their feelings hurt.

 

Gosh!

 

As a new W I found this all a bit OTT! I can't speak for any other fOW, but speaking for myself I certainly didn't want my H's xW's life, not a bit of it! Throughout the A I was always smug about how perfect my own life was, compared to her sorry mess of a life, so why on earth would I have wanted hers when I had a wonderful R with a wonderful guy (my now-H) while she had an estranged, abusive M which he'd checked out of; I had a fulfilling job in an exciting place while she was pushed out of hers because no one could get on with her; I lived in a wonderful place and had - have - a great circle of friends while she hated where she lived, and the only "friends" she had were those friends and colleagues of her now xH's that she hadn't completely alienated; I have great kids that I'm really close to, while hers lived in fear of her and spent their time away from her as far as possible. What's to envy???

 

Ironically, as things worked out, I'm now living in the house she hated (having spent months exorcising it and redoing it), working among her former colleagues, and enjoying a hectic social life among the friends she may once have invited round (as well, of course, as my own friends, and other friends my H and I have made as a couple). But the dynamics are very different, my relationships to friends, family and colleagues could not be more different from hers, and my M and my R with my H's kids are strong, vibrant, fun, and completely devoid of drama and pain - the antithesis of hers.

 

So no, I can't relate to that kind of "life envy" at all - and imagine that anyone who aspires to that must either have no life of their own, or have such low self-esteem that the best alternative (of which they consder themselves worthy) that they can picture is the misery package of a reject and her life.

[silktricks]

Yet, since knowing how often As happen, I don't believe we can compare affairs to molestation, murder, or rape for that matter. The pain may be devasting to the BS, but I do not believe the devastation is comparable to the aforementioned.

 

I disagree. For one thing - frequency of occurrence does not in any way indicate the amount of pain incurred.

 

Secondly, I've experienced two of the three items you mentioned (and since I'm alive, you can probably figure out which two). I will absolutely say without a particle of hesitation that the pain I personally experienced from my husbands betrayal was not only worse, but FAR worse than either of the other two experiences.

 

I don't think anyone can say this is worse or that is worse because pain is individual. For ME, the pain I experienced was worse --- but on the other hand my first husband was also a WS and the pain that time, though bad, had none of the intensity of the pain I experienced this time. So, not only individual, but dependent upon circumstances....

[Reggie]

Yeah, me too, Silk. Had the sexual abuse thing as a kid and this is worse for me.Also, second WW's infidelity hurt worse than the first's. Wonder why that is.