donnamaybe Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 Right - which you are always entitled to. I can't say if I agree with her or not. I think I'd need to know the people involved personally in order to give my best personal opinion as I believe that there are many variables at play here. Exactly - we are all voicing our opinions and views....so...why can't we do that, even when they don't mirror ours with (here it comes, and I KNOW no one will answer!)......KINDNESS??? I think we were - until a certain poster came along saying things like "mind your own business" and "with friends like you, who needs enemies?" THAT is the point at which things began to turn ugly, unfortunately.
complicatedlife Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 And so they claim to "intend" to avoid it, but do it anyway. What then? Girl, I don't know - curious about the answer. But I can tell you the Bible that I read (KJV) clearly states, "Those who know what is right and continue to do wrong shall be whipped with many stripes." Not pleasant!
Reggie Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 And so they claim to "intend" to avoid it, but do it anyway. What then? If it is merely a "claim" without true intention, the they are not forgiven. At least that was the way it was explained to me. Makes sense to me.
donnamaybe Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 If it is merely a "claim" without true intention, the they are not forgiven. At least that was the way it was explained to me. Makes sense to me. I totally get that, but SOME people will consider themselves forgiven, then go on about their chosen path feeling all happy and self righteous.
GreenEyedLady Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 I find it so funny that some people don't like the tables turned... That they can say whatever they want and posters with a "different" label cannot... You'd think they know better... GEL
Reggie Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 I totally get that, but SOME people will consider themselves forgiven, then go on about their chosen path feeling all happy and self righteous. Not much you can do about that, is there? It's on them, then.
complicatedlife Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 I think we were - until a certain poster came along saying things like "mind your own business" and "with friends like you, who needs enemies?" THAT is the point at which things began to turn ugly, unfortunately. Alright, I'll bite on this: If we're talking about GEL here, let's look at a few things. 1. She pretty much says what she thinks but I don't think her "intent and purpose" is to offend. 2. Now I am not saying that the OP's story is false, but it did cross my mind that the post may have been written to "stir *ish up"..now if that is the case, and GEL thinks that, that is probably why she took the certain 'air" that she did. 3. I personally didn't take her to be insulting, but rather, talking to...maybe a girlfriend that you are trying to check (correct) because she is off her rocker - for example: "Now, you know you need to stop that - if you're gonna act like that, who needs you for a friend?"
Gamine Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 And so they claim to "intend" to avoid it, but do it anyway. What then? Hey DonnaMaybe! Here's how I understand confession... And, mind you, this is how I understand it. The individual confessing has to go through quite a process before entering into the confessional. First they must have reflected on what 'they have done'. Then they engage their heart and compassion and 'see' how this action or inaction has affected themselves, others, and God. Then, there is a process of recognizing that there is a debt to themselves, others and to God that needs to be addressed through atonement. In order for the person to even get to the confessional they have to have already engaged a sense of duty and responsibility... that elevates to an admission and apology... that leads to an acceptance that they now have to make it right. Atonement. I see it as a process within the human soul of recognition and acceptance, humility, and apology. It is a ritual that enables a person to engage these aspects of the self and... more importantly... accountability. Some 'users' see confession as a joke to exploit. Clearly, whatever happens in the confessional is ultimately between them and God. If they are there with a jaded heart... it is seen by God. If they are playing a game... well, suffice to say that they just sinned in that little game. I believe that the truth of what we do is understood... and our motivations. So, I sort of understand 'confession' as a vehicle for responsibility, remorse and acceptance... if, and only if, the person is approaching it with a pure heart.
Reggie Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 I find it so funny that some people don't like the tables turned... That they can say whatever they want and posters with a "different" label cannot... You'd think they know better... GEL Spare us the sanctimony. Anyone can say whatever they want, provided it is not a personal attack under the guidlines here.
complicatedlife Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 That they can say whatever they want and posters with a "different" label cannot... There really is a lot of truth in this statement. I could give...literally pages....of statements made by BS's that are disparaging to OW and they are not reprimanded by their BS peers, but when any OW makes a disparaging comment (and I can find plenty of those, too), she is swooped down on by the BS Gang. (LMAO - I like that name!)
Author Caitlyn Posted July 23, 2009 Author Posted July 23, 2009 I thank everyone for this discussion. It has given me new insight that will help me if presented with a situation like this ever again. First off, I’d like to say, my husband read a good chunk of this thread last night. He found some posts amusing, a majority of them interesting & a few of them irritating. Surprising for me, the p*sswhipped comment amused him while the digs at our marriage royally ticked him off. (I thought the first would tick him off more, that whole male ego thing) Overall though, he said it was “a good read”, but one men should keep to a minimum because a woman’s mind is a scary place. (Now that gave me a good laugh) As for his talk with Tom, well let’s just say he won’t be going back on the x-mas card list anytime soon. When asked why he told Lisa that we knew, his only response was that he thought she would be less p*ssed at him if she thought we knew. We also learn that he came over that night because his boss had just informed him that they had found his replacement & that the process of letting him go had begun. He came to my husband knowing he would figure out the truth & hoping we would tell Lisa. Or as Tom put it, “You and Cat could have calmed her down for me.” My husband got ticked and ranted a bit at this point. Saying to Tom “Did you want me to sign the divorce papers for you too?” to which Tom responded "I was stuck and you’re better at this kind of stuff." My husband also addressed why in the world Tom thought it okay to try and get invited our holiday party. Tom said he told his OW/wife that there was no way in hell that we would even speak to her anytime soon. She apparently thought we needed to “get over it because Tom was her man now.” (I have no clue if she actually said that because this is coming from Tom, a man with a not so great track record.) And before my husband ended the conversation he asked the big one, "Was it all at least worth it?" Tom laughed & said "She f*cking left me. Took my kid and moved back in with her mom and dad. Probably having a good laugh with Lisa by now about how they both f*cked me over." My husband said Tom spent the next half hour complaining about his new wife, his ex-wife, child support & Lisa’s new BF before my husband finally had enough & left. Overall, my husband said Tom look like cr*p & his words, not mine “You know how ***** (our daughter) wanted that dancing game a couple years back and then when she got it, she whined for a month because it sucked? Well, it was a lot like that, only not as cute.” In the end my husband said it is a “closed book” now & he has no interest in being friends with Tom, that “Tom made his bed, now he has to lye in it.” I also want to say thank you to everyone who participated in this discussion. I have learned a lot about the mindset of those in the midst of affairs, how they may react to others & it will likely affect how I approach any future situation. You have all informed me & even though it doesn’t change my view on affairs, I do have a better understanding of it all.
Gamine Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 There really is a lot of truth in this statement. I could give...literally pages....of statements made by BS's that are disparaging to OW and they are not reprimanded by their BS peers, but when any OW makes a disparaging comment (and I can find plenty of those, too), she is swooped down on by the BS Gang. (LMAO - I like that name!) Why the need for so much division? We are women, men... people. All making choices. Each with their own particular, unique motivations. Sometimes some are judged harshly because the premise of the situation has its origin in something that is detrimental to others. So, it seems, at times, that all of the personal pain, etc.. experienced is 'undeserving' of sympathy but in need of a call to reality. Tough love is never agreement, but tough love can be the truest form of support.
Author Caitlyn Posted July 23, 2009 Author Posted July 23, 2009 Alright, I'll bite on this: If we're talking about GEL here, let's look at a few things. 1. She pretty much says what she thinks but I don't think her "intent and purpose" is to offend. 2. Now I am not saying that the OP's story is false, but it did cross my mind that the post may have been written to "stir *ish up"..now if that is the case, and GEL thinks that, that is probably why she took the certain 'air" that she did. 3. I personally didn't take her to be insulting, but rather, talking to...maybe a girlfriend that you are trying to check (correct) because she is off her rocker - for example: "Now, you know you need to stop that - if you're gonna act like that, who needs you for a friend?" I thought about each part of my post to avoid this very notion. It was not to stir up anything, but no matter how much I try, my opinion on the subject will still affect how I worded my post. I doubt anyone can hide their opinions completely. So no, the op was in no way a veiled attempt at stirring anything. I sincerly did want some perspective & I did offer my own. I did it though with respect and civility because I have never been in the shoes of an OW/OM, BS, WS & therfore, I have no way of knowing how any of them feel/react or approach any given situation.
complicatedlife Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 Why the need for so much division? We are women, men... people. All making choices. Each with their own particular, unique motivations. Sometimes some are judged harshly because the premise of the situation has its origin in something that is detrimental to others. So, it seems, at times, that all of the personal pain, etc.. experienced is 'undeserving' of sympathy but in need of a call to reality. Tough love is never agreement, but tough love can be the truest form of support. Ok - let me be serious for a second. I agree with what you have written here. The problem is this: A disparaging, ugly, reply to someone in an affair: "You are a slut and you need to keep your legs closed and stay away from people's husbands. Go find a man that's single. You also have low-self esteem and no morals whatsoever. I feel sorry for your children." And, yes, I have read that here. MANY TIMES. And it results in automatic defensiveness and sets a tone when it's done repeatedly; people then are always putting on armour and a shield to protect themselves because they expect to be attacked. Which results in an ugly back-and-forth. A loving and kind reply: "You are only hurting yourself here in the long run. It's hard when you care, but do yourself, who you should love more, a big favor and get into some counseling. Leave this guy/woman so that he/she can do what they need to do for themselves and their family and take care of you."
complicatedlife Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 I thought about each part of my post to avoid this very notion. It was not to stir up anything, but no matter how much I try, my opinion on the subject will still affect how I worded my post. I doubt anyone can hide their opinions completely. So no, the op was in no way a veiled attempt at stirring anything. I sincerly did want some perspective & I did offer my own. I did it though with respect and civility because I have never been in the shoes of an OW/OM, BS, WS & therfore, I have no way of knowing how any of them feel/react or approach any given situation. That is very true- you were quite polite and civil. But I will say that it seems odd that you wanted opinions when you had already formed your own - note that I am not saying that you shouldn't have asked because of that - just that it was odd; it came across initially as if you were setting out to judge the opinions that you would get based on your own - but you didn't. Thanks for the update. I have to say, i actually feel bad for Lisa, Tom, and the OW. Sorry, I'm a sucker for people in pain!
donnamaybe Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 Alright, I'll bite on this: If we're talking about GEL here, let's look at a few things. 1. She pretty much says what she thinks but I don't think her "intent and purpose" is to offend. You really think so? With this little gem? Maybe Caitlyn is happy, but I bet her H isn't. Now he looks like he is p**** whipped. And we usually make comments based on our experience. Her experience seems to be that most M's rarely make it to relatively happy. GEL And this one? The normal outcome of an A is they run their course or there is a d-day or the MP ends their M. I am sorry that your M is unsatisfying to you, but my M is very satisfying and happy for us. And we don't care what people think and we've actually found lots of support FROM OUR FRIENDS. GEL I'm sorry, but those comments were made SOLELY for the purpose of trying to hurt the OP.
donnamaybe Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 What really strikes me is how difficult it must be to be in the position of the OP. You might lose two friends if you tell. You might lose two friends if you DON'T tell. I would have to risk telling and losing friends.
Author Caitlyn Posted July 23, 2009 Author Posted July 23, 2009 That is very true- you were quite polite and civil. But I will say that it seems odd that you wanted opinions when you had already formed your own - note that I am not saying that you shouldn't have asked because of that - just that it was odd; it came across initially as if you were setting out to judge the opinions that you would get based on your own - but you didn't. Thanks for the update. I have to say, i actually feel bad for Lisa, Tom, and the OW. Sorry, I'm a sucker for people in pain! I know it is odd, but I have always been a person who enjoys expanding my view of the world around me. And while I had an opinion going into this discussion, and I admit the basics have not change, I can say that this discussion will influence any situation in the future. I also agree, if what Tom said is true, then his life seems to have spiraled far out of his control & now the OW & his new child could be added to the list of people negatively affected by Tom's inability to be happy in his own skin.
Author Caitlyn Posted July 23, 2009 Author Posted July 23, 2009 What really strikes me is how difficult it must be to be in the position of the OP. You might lose two friends if you tell. You might lose two friends if you DON'T tell. I would have to risk telling and losing friends. It was a tough spot & it's not one either of us ever want to be in again.
Gamine Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 Ok - let me be serious for a second. I agree with what you have written here. The problem is this: A disparaging, ugly, reply to someone in an affair: "You are a slut and you need to keep your legs closed and stay away from people's husbands. Go find a man that's single. You also have low-self esteem and no morals whatsoever. I feel sorry for your children." And, yes, I have read that here. MANY TIMES. And it results in automatic defensiveness and sets a tone when it's done repeatedly; people then are always putting on armour and a shield to protect themselves because they expect to be attacked. Which results in an ugly back-and-forth. A loving and kind reply: "You are only hurting yourself here in the long run. It's hard when you care, but do yourself, who you should love more, a big favor and get into some counseling. Leave this guy/woman so that he/she can do what they need to do for themselves and their family and take care of you." If I were having sex, dating, and emotionally engaged with someone's spouse and wrote about it on LS I would expect to be called names and I would expect to be told to cross my legs, and I would expect that someone would feel sorry for my children. Because, even though it hasn't been communicated with 'dew drops' and 'sugar candy' it is the truth. I have no business having sex with someone's spouse simply because I choose to. I have no business acting irresponsibly when I am a mother. I should keep my legs crossed if I cannot open them responsibly. We can love many people. Love is first a state of being and then tempered by choices. We can deny ourselves that 'piece of cake'. We can deny ourselves someone else's spouse. Choice.
Gamine Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 It was a tough spot & it's not one either of us ever want to be in again. I want to thank you for your post. It is important, if not essential, to consider the lives of others in all that we do and your sharing helped us evaluate and consider that most important element.
donnamaybe Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 I want to thank you for your post. It is important, if not essential, to consider the lives of others in all that we do and your sharing helped us evaluate and consider that most important element. Yes, yes, yes! I have seen many people in affairs plainly state, "I don't care about anyone else but myself, so why should I care if someone else is being hurt?"
Reggie Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 Ok - let me be serious for a second. I agree with what you have written here. The problem is this: A disparaging, ugly, reply to someone in an affair: "You are a slut and you need to keep your legs closed and stay away from people's husbands. Go find a man that's single. You also have low-self esteem and no morals whatsoever. I feel sorry for your children." And, yes, I have read that here. MANY TIMES. And it results in automatic defensiveness and sets a tone when it's done repeatedly; people then are always putting on armour and a shield to protect themselves because they expect to be attacked. Which results in an ugly back-and-forth. A loving and kind reply: "You are only hurting yourself here in the long run. It's hard when you care, but do yourself, who you should love more, a big favor and get into some counseling. Leave this guy/woman so that he/she can do what they need to do for themselves and their family and take care of you." I agree that some of this stuff is insulting.' However, the example given of an approprite response contains one clear fallacy, the notion that the OM/OW is "only hurting yourself". If that was the case, I do not think BSs that have expierienced this sever etrauma, often described as rivaling or exceeding the loss of a loved one or a sexual assault, would be so upset over the OM/OW's actions. Perhaps you have never been the victim of this type of abuse. So, you do not understand the extent of the trauma. That would explain why you feel it is okay to conceal it from the one who is continuing to be victimized. But, I don't think there is any real debate over the fact that one participating in a conspiracy to hurt another, in this case a BS, is doing more thean merely hurting him/herself. I think this lack of understanding may explain why soe of the posters advocating non-disclosure avoided the question posed re consideration of the BS's mental and physical health.
silktricks Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 Ok - let me be serious for a second. I agree with what you have written here. The problem is this: A disparaging, ugly, reply to someone in an affair: "You are a slut and you need to keep your legs closed and stay away from people's husbands. Go find a man that's single. You also have low-self esteem and no morals whatsoever. I feel sorry for your children." And, yes, I have read that here. MANY TIMES. And it results in automatic defensiveness and sets a tone when it's done repeatedly; people then are always putting on armour and a shield to protect themselves because they expect to be attacked. Which results in an ugly back-and-forth. A loving and kind reply: "You are only hurting yourself here in the long run. It's hard when you care, but do yourself, who you should love more, a big favor and get into some counseling. Leave this guy/woman so that he/she can do what they need to do for themselves and their family and take care of you." Yes, there are oftentimes needlessly hurtful postings directed at OW/OM. They many times don't need to be as harsh as they are.... however, to be completely fair, there have also been many postings that are just as cruel aimed at BS - most especially BS who have chosen to stay with their WS. I'm NOT saying that cruelty on one-side makes cruelty on the other side OK, but I AM saying that oftentimes when one is defending oneself, and one's choices, that they can get carried away and hurt other people. Neither group of people is without blemish, and it behooves all of us to realize that.
Gamine Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 I agree that some of this stuff is insulting.' However, the example given of an approprite response contains one clear fallacy, the notion that the OM/OW is "only hurting yourself". If that was the case, I do not think BSs that have expierienced this sever etrauma, often described as rivaling or exceeding the loss of a loved one or a sexual assault, would be so upset over the OM/OW's actions. Perhaps you have never been the victim of this type of abuse. So, you do not understand the extent of the trauma. That would explain why you feel it is okay to conceal it from the one who is continuing to be victimized. But, I don't think there is any real debate over the fact that one participating in a conspiracy to hurt another, in this case a BS, is doing more thean merely hurting him/herself. I think this lack of understanding may explain why soe of the posters advocating non-disclosure avoided the question posed re consideration of the BS's mental and physical health. Reggie, I totally appreciate your posts. You have a kind heart.
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