Caitlyn Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 I've been reading this forum because I'm the type of lady who likes to see each point of view before making my mind up on any subject. So after reading, I felt the need to post, but not as an OW/OM or a BS. What I am is a betrayed friend & I want to really know from OW/OM if the friends, the people close to your MM/MW every cross your mind? (Please know I'm not here to judge, but to understand from your POV) So here is my story as a betrayed friend. Myself and my husband had a close group of friends for many years. Several of them went through divorces, two had marriages end partly because of affairs & we stuck together through it all because that is what friends do. For years it worked, we were close, more like a family & we cared about each other. One particular friend, lets call her Lisa, met and married what we thought was a good man, lets call him Tom. Over the years my husband became best friends with Tom, our kids called him uncle Tom, his wife was Aunt Lisa and they were both part of our family. Now looking back on Lisa & Tom's relationship, I can say there were signs that everything wasn't perfect, but no marriage is so I at the time, I brsuhed them off. I also offered advice to both when asked, it was what myself and my husband did in our little circle, we were sort of the mom/dadd figures of them all. Then things got ugly very quickly. Our friend Tom showed up late in the evening, unannouced and wanted to have a chat with my husband privately. When my husband came inside after the chat, I knew in my gut what had happened. I even said "Let me guess, he's sleeping with someone at work" Inside, I prayed my husband would laugh and say of course not, but instead, his face drained of color & he clammed up. Over the course of the next three days, my husband stopped eating, stopped talking & was an emotional mess. What our supposed friend Tom did that night was put a huge burden on my husbands shoulders. While he did not admit to the affair, he admitted to thinking about one. (We later found out that he had been sleeping with his OW for more than a month) So on evening three we are supposed to go over to Lisa & Tom's home for our monthly card game. All our friends are going to be there & I know what is going on without my husband saying a word. I spoke to him that night, told him that either Tom was to tell Lisa or we would. My husband passed on the message because even though Tom lied and said nothing happened, we both knew it was just that, a lie. Two days later Tom told Lisa he was having an affair, told her how long it had been going on & even decided to tell Lisa, our other dear friend how we had kept the secret from her. Thankfully, Lisa understood when we explained that he didn't actually confess, that we suspected and told him that he needed to talk to her, not us. Tom had his OW pregnant before he even moved out & the two were married just one day after the divorce papers were signed. We haven't spoken to him since that night, although we have heard though a relative of his that things are not looking good for him & his new bride. Lisa has moved on, found herself a nice guy that she is taking it slow with. She has never said it directly, but I know she feels betrayed by us for not telling her the truth right away. The two kids that Lisa & Tom share are having a rough time because not only did thier whole world change, but they lost an extended support network because the level of trust in our group of friends has not been the same since. We are all more closed off, we all feel betrayed by his actions & it has slowly erroded many of the friendships. So I ask you posters, the OW/OM out there, do you ever consider the actually number of people your actions are affecting? To the people having affairs, do you consider how wide spread the fallout truely will be when the affair comes out into the light of day? I ask these questions because I've been in that extended fallout, I've seen the damage it can do & I don't think the people in the affair really consider it all. Had Tom come to us AFTER he told Lisa, we would of supported him as much as possible, just as we supported Lisa. Had Tom told my husband the truth that night instead of continuing on his mountain of lies we probably would of understood. (because he had lied to everyone for at least a month) Had Tom considered for once the damage he did to not only my husbands friendship, but to my husbands ability to trust his friends, we might of reacted differently. Had Tom not actually thought it was okay to ask if he could bring his OW to my home just two weeks after the split, in front of my children, who we had not even begun to explain the situation to, things might of gone differently. But he keep using poor judgement & in the end, the actions of this MM & his OW ended up causing a huge amount of chaos in a lot of lives & not once have they apologized. His family even turned their backs on him for the mountain of lies he doled out. We still see them regularly & they are heartbroken that he choose to take such a route instead of honesty. So my advice to anyone out there in a relationship where one side is married. Keep in mind that your actions impact many people, not just the kids, not just the BS, but MANY PEOPLE. And the effects can be long lasting & while the marriage might not be salvagable, if you continue with the lies, your friendships probably won't be either. As I said before, I'm not judging, I just want to understand better.
In_Repair Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Tom was able to cheat on his wife and kids, but you don't understand how he could put his friends in this position? Really? Come on... he's just a little selfish, maybe? My MW has told her closest friends and her siblings about me. I have done the same. While it opens up the possibility of someone telling her husband, it also keeps them from feeling alienated when we do get discovered. They have all had their chance to ask questions and hear the reasons/excuses... it's a strange process. You do have to consider the friends of your affair partner, that is, if you actually plan on trying to have a real future with them. I would want her to leave her husband and be with me, but I don't want her to feel like she has to abandon her whole life and change who she is.
datura_noir Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 This was one of the biggest fallouts due to my H's affair. The OW's brother was my H's best friend-they were closer than brothers. OW was his best friends' sister, whom he had met and hung out with before he met me. Now, we no longer talk with or see this man and his GF. It's a shame, really, considering the history. But it really puts everything in perspective as far as the meaning of "friends".
GreenEyedLady Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 How about this perspective? If you hadn't forced an answer out of your H, perhaps Tom would have pulled his s*** together and the A would run its course, OW and Tom are not forced together and Tom realizes he messed up, goes home, is a better H to Lisa and they live happily ever after. Hmmm.... Perhaps you should MYOB in the future and those kids may have had an intact family. I guess my biggest problem with your post is why in the world would anyone make their decisions based on what their friends think? Friends are not even a factor in whether someone has an affair or not. YOUR SPOUSE SHOULD BE. This wasn't about you or your H or the couples in your little clique. Maybe your clique isn't so close because they think YOU overstepped your bounds. With friends like you, who needs enemies? Perhaps you should go ask Tom your questions. See what he says. He is after all the one who "betrayed" you. GEL
whichwayisup Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 I doubt he was thinking of any of you during his affair. He certainly wasn't thinking of his wife and children, so why would he think of you and your husband? When one is cheating on their spouse, they get into a different mindset, the affairfog, and the only person who counts is the person cheating. Tom shouldn't have put this on your H's shoulders, he did put him in a spot. GEL, it isn't her fault, or her husbands fault, it's TOM's as HE was the one who created this mess to begin with. I do agree with the last part of your post, to talk to Tom and see what he says..
GorillaTheater Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 This wasn't about you or your H or the couples in your little clique. Maybe your clique isn't so close because they think YOU overstepped your bounds. With friends like you, who needs enemies? Why are you here? Do you want to help or just argue? It sure doesn't appear that you're here to help.
GreenEyedLady Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Why are you here? Do you want to help or just argue? It sure doesn't appear that you're here to help. Well, I am just here to argue. I did give helpful advice: I told her to go direct her questions to Tom. Don't you think that's helpful? What would you suggest, since I apparently suck at giving advice? GEL
GorillaTheater Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Well, I am just here to argue. At the moment, me too. You've struck me over the past few days as being highly protective and territorial over this particular forum, so I thought I'd poke you with a stick. But I'm not an OM, so I'll see myself out.
In_Repair Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 I kind of agree with GEL. The whole thing about them being the parental type figures in their group is telling. They all handled it wrong. It's clear that they are/were more Lisa's friends than Tom's, otherwise they would be in contact with him and not here asking about him. Tom confided in the wrong people and got the wrong type of response. But then again, he really didn't tell, did he? He said he was considering an affair, probably hoping for some helpful advice from his friend, possibly with the intent of NOT putting them in such an awkward spot. They are the ones who assumed the worst and then threatened him with exposure. They forced his hand. I just didn't want to post that earlier because I couldn't think of a way to say it without it coming across as an attack on the OP. It's ultimately on Tom's shoulders, as he should know his friends better, and the OP isn't the type of friend to go to with stuff like this.
Spark1111 Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 No, no one thinks of anyone but their own unfulfilled needs in an affair, IMHO. They do not think of the fallout on children, family, friends. Everyone is forced to come down on a side of the fence; right or wrong, judgements abound and everyone feels uncomfortable. Put it that position, I, too, would have encouraged honest disclosure. Sometimes, we have to examine why we are being told such damaging information. Did Tom use your husband to help him get out of the marriage and marry his affair partner? Maybe. Was Tom looking for justification to have the affair in the first place? Maybe. But whatever Tom's motives, you and your husband had to make a decision on what was the best course of action for you to take in regards to your friendship to both parties. I would have encouraged Tom to tell Lisa too. If he wanted complete anonymity, he could have spoke to a counselor to figure out his confusion. He chose not to, thereby putting you in a terrible situation. You did the right thing. Many relationships are affected by divorce. That is outside of your control. Group friendships do fall apart, and while sad, there isn't much you can do about it.
GreenEyedLady Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 LOL bitter much? Are you actually blaming the riend that the man is a cheater and his family broke up over it? Too funny. **Big sigh** Yep, that's exactly right. Back to regular programming. Oh wait, we already were... GEL
MistyK Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 I guess my biggest problem with your post is why in the world would anyone make their decisions based on what their friends think? Friends are not even a factor in whether someone has an affair or not. YOUR SPOUSE SHOULD BE. This wasn't about you or your H or the couples in your little clique. Caitlyn, Your post almost sounds like you think every MM/MW and every OW/OM is off in carefree la-la land wherein they don't care about fallout. Sure they care about fallout - if they didn't they wouldn't bother trying to hide it. But really, it isn't about you. It's hard enough to contemplate the destruction of your marriage, family and extended family--- friends don't even enter the radar, and really, with all those other things being so high priority, they kinda shouldn't. Tom shouldn't have put you in the situation, but that doesn't mean that you had to compound the problem by injecting yourself even further. It's about boundaries. You can tell tom that you don't support what he's doing and since you are friends with lisa, you'd rather he seek counsel on this particular issue elsewhere. As far as Lisa - if she's truly your friend she ought to understand that you felt it was not your place to intervene in her family, but that you encouraged Tom to spill his guts. JMO.
bentnotbroken Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 I think you did right by telling tom to be a man. He wasn't concerned about his children and you didn't break up the marriage. How ever, I do believe this little group maybe too close. They haven't honored themselves or their marriages by being that close. Tom had no right to dump his crap in your H lap and then expect him or you not to react... Usually GEL says things that I agree with, but I don't agree to the minding your own business stuff. Our lives affect each other, negatively or positively. We don't live in a vacuum and we were meant to help others along the way. His actions affected all who knew him. Not telling wouldn't have changed that. My suggestion would be to remain friendly, but not parental.
Author Caitlyn Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 How about this perspective? If you hadn't forced an answer out of your H, perhaps Tom would have pulled his s*** together and the A would run its course, OW and Tom are not forced together and Tom realizes he messed up, goes home, is a better H to Lisa and they live happily ever after. Hmmm.... Perhaps you should MYOB in the future and those kids may have had an intact family. I guess my biggest problem with your post is why in the world would anyone make their decisions based on what their friends think? Friends are not even a factor in whether someone has an affair or not. YOUR SPOUSE SHOULD BE. This wasn't about you or your H or the couples in your little clique. Maybe your clique isn't so close because they think YOU overstepped your bounds. With friends like you, who needs enemies? Perhaps you should go ask Tom your questions. See what he says. He is after all the one who "betrayed" you. GEL I would of loved to have minded my own business, but Tom put both of us in a place where that was no longer possible. His bad choice, not ours. Those kids would not have an intact family. Tom is the one who did this damage, his OW did this damage & I refuse to take any amount of blame for it. Sorry, but it won't happen. This is all on Tom & his OW. Besides, how could he of covered up the child support payments for his other woman's pregnancy? Not to mention Tom worked with his OW & half of their co-workers had already figured out what the long lunch breaks were. He just wasn't very good at hiding his misdeeds. As for why he should of considered our feelings, well I don't know, maybe he should of not dragged us into the middle of it. Maybe, just maybe, he should of cleaned up after his own mess & yes, he should of considered those around him. Had he told his wife, had he left his wife, I wouldn't be typing this because we would of continued to be his friend, but there are some limits on even the most understanding friendships & he went over that limit. As for how close our "clique" is. We are all still friends, minus Tom. But he left a feeling of mistrust that we are slowly repairing. We'll get through the mess Tom left just as we have worked through other tough times. As for asking Tom himself, I don't know if I could without letting anger get the better of me. My husband suffered a huge loss in this mess & my anger over him hurting my husband has not diminished. And yes, he betrayed a lot of people. That is what happens when you lie to everyone around you, they feel betrayed.
Author Caitlyn Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 Tom was able to cheat on his wife and kids, but you don't understand how he could put his friends in this position? Really? Come on... he's just a little selfish, maybe? My MW has told her closest friends and her siblings about me. I have done the same. While it opens up the possibility of someone telling her husband, it also keeps them from feeling alienated when we do get discovered. They have all had their chance to ask questions and hear the reasons/excuses... it's a strange process. You do have to consider the friends of your affair partner, that is, if you actually plan on trying to have a real future with them. I would want her to leave her husband and be with me, but I don't want her to feel like she has to abandon her whole life and change who she is. Thank you for the honesty & thank you for considering those around your MW. The loss of longtime friends can be devistating & I hope that your situation has a positive outcome.
GreenEyedLady Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 GEL do you lie about how you and your husband met? Why would I need to lie? He came and did a presentation for my class and then left a note with a bunch of stickers in my box at work the next week. What's there to lie about? GEL
Author Caitlyn Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 This was one of the biggest fallouts due to my H's affair. The OW's brother was my H's best friend-they were closer than brothers. OW was his best friends' sister, whom he had met and hung out with before he met me. Now, we no longer talk with or see this man and his GF. It's a shame, really, considering the history. But it really puts everything in perspective as far as the meaning of "friends". Thank you for responding. The loss of a friendship is a big deal when you have a lifetime of memories.
norajane Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Ah, the "BS is the last to know" situation. When everyone else knows that the H or W is stepping out, but no one tells the BS. It adds insult to injury once the BS finds out. It puts the friends in a terrible position of being forced to lie to the BS in order to maintain the confidence of the WS. Forced to lie continually, every time you see or speak to the BS, and every day by omission. I wouldn't want to be that friend. I'd probably do what the OP did.
GreenEyedLady Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 I would of loved to have minded my own business, but Tom put both of us in a place where that was no longer possible. His bad choice, not ours. Those kids would not have an intact family. Tom is the one who did this damage, his OW did this damage & I refuse to take any amount of blame for it. Sorry, but it won't happen. This is all on Tom & his OW. Besides, how could he of covered up the child support payments for his other woman's pregnancy? Not to mention Tom worked with his OW & half of their co-workers had already figured out what the long lunch breaks were. He just wasn't very good at hiding his misdeeds. As for why he should of considered our feelings, well I don't know, maybe he should of not dragged us into the middle of it. Maybe, just maybe, he should of cleaned up after his own mess & yes, he should of considered those around him. Had he told his wife, had he left his wife, I wouldn't be typing this because we would of continued to be his friend, but there are some limits on even the most understanding friendships & he went over that limit. As for how close our "clique" is. We are all still friends, minus Tom. But he left a feeling of mistrust that we are slowly repairing. We'll get through the mess Tom left just as we have worked through other tough times. Oh really, not according to your first post: We are all more closed off, we all feel betrayed by his actions & it has slowly erroded many of the friendships. As for asking Tom himself, I don't know if I could without letting anger get the better of me. My husband suffered a huge loss in this mess & my anger over him hurting my husband has not diminished. And yes, he betrayed a lot of people. That is what happens when you lie to everyone around you, they feel betrayed. Let's just explore this: If you truly think YOU should have been taken into consideration when someone has an A, (and you are not the spouse) you need to talk to a professional. You are not important in other people's decisions, period. Now I agree Tom was dumb in confiding in your H. He should have realized who wears the pants in your family. But he said he was contemplating and you and your H intervened, god bless your souls. I think is a pretty good example of what happens if you tell the W. Kill the messenger syndrome. You assume that Lisa was mad you didn't tell her sooner. Perhaps she was mad that you forced him to tell her when she'd RATHER NOT KNOW. There are those people, you know. And you forced her deal with what was a dealbreaker to her. He did tell his W and he left her and he is still not your friend. So your limit was higher, no? Your H did suffer a loss, and I'm sure he's pissed you at now. I think you seriously need to reread everything that you've written. I mainly wrote my first post because it just screamed out at me the very obvious and being controversial as I am, gave YOU a different perspective on it. And now that you write more, I can see you're actually serious and that's JUST SCARY to me. GEL
Author Caitlyn Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 I doubt he was thinking of any of you during his affair. He certainly wasn't thinking of his wife and children, so why would he think of you and your husband? When one is cheating on their spouse, they get into a different mindset, the affairfog, and the only person who counts is the person cheating. Tom shouldn't have put this on your H's shoulders, he did put him in a spot. GEL, it isn't her fault, or her husbands fault, it's TOM's as HE was the one who created this mess to begin with. I do agree with the last part of your post, to talk to Tom and see what he says.. Thanks for responding. I'm beginning to understand better & you gave a term for it, the affairfog. His acts were very self serving & to this day, he refuses to accept responsibility for the chaos he caused. His first conversation after the fallout should of started with a "I'm sorry" instead of "Hey, is it cool if I bring my mistress over to the holiday party at your place?" Also, you are 100% right, if he didn't think of his wife/kids, there is no way he considered anyone else.
Dexter Morgan Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 So I ask you posters, the OW/OM out there, do you ever consider the actually number of people your actions are affecting? of course they don't, even if they tell you "yes" in this forum to that question. To the people having affairs, do you consider how wide spread the fallout truely will be when the affair comes out into the light of day? Now on this one, I'm sure they do....so they take extra special steps to try not to get caught. The risk is worth it to them for the gratification they are getting. If not, they wouldn't be doing it. And I'm glad to see that "Lisa" moved on and found herself a wonderful man. Hope "Tom" is in misery.
Author Caitlyn Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 I kind of agree with GEL. The whole thing about them being the parental type figures in their group is telling. They all handled it wrong. It's clear that they are/were more Lisa's friends than Tom's, otherwise they would be in contact with him and not here asking about him. Tom confided in the wrong people and got the wrong type of response. But then again, he really didn't tell, did he? He said he was considering an affair, probably hoping for some helpful advice from his friend, possibly with the intent of NOT putting them in such an awkward spot. They are the ones who assumed the worst and then threatened him with exposure. They forced his hand. I just didn't want to post that earlier because I couldn't think of a way to say it without it coming across as an attack on the OP. It's ultimately on Tom's shoulders, as he should know his friends better, and the OP isn't the type of friend to go to with stuff like this. I don't consider this an attack at all. I welcome the opinions & that is why I posted here. Had he been honest that night to my husband, things would of gone differently. I can be certain of that because we were in the same situation with a different friend & she is still very much our friend. Then again, she was honest with us both, she told us and then went home to have the talk with her husband. Instead of lying, feeling the waters or whatever Tom was doing that night, she was there for a different reason. She wanted advice on what she should do & we told her to be honest, talk to her husband & decide if she wanted to work on her marriage or take a different path in life. That only they could decide what the future held for their marriage. The difference is, she came to us because she wanted to be honest, she took responsibility for her actions/lies & she was seeking help on how to approach telling her husband. There in lies the difference, she never expected us to keep this secret of hers, she wanted guidance/support during the process of telling her husband & we gave her that. That night with Tom, my husband did offer advice, he advised him to talk to Lisa. That they both needed to figure out why Tom even considered having an affair & they needed to decide together where to go from that point. Then again, how usefull was the advice when Tom lied that night? He wasn't honest & my husband knew him well enough to know that. My husband offered an understanding shoulder, gave him a clear path to non-judgemental honesty & he continued to lie. As for our level of friendship when comparing Tom & Lisa. We treat all our friends as equals. I had the same level of caring and respect for both of them & Tom is the one who destroyed that respect.
Author Caitlyn Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 Let's just explore this: If you truly think YOU should have been taken into consideration when someone has an A, (and you are not the spouse) you need to talk to a professional. You are not important in other people's decisions, period. Now I agree Tom was dumb in confiding in your H. He should have realized who wears the pants in your family. But he said he was contemplating and you and your H intervened, god bless your souls. I think is a pretty good example of what happens if you tell the W. Kill the messenger syndrome. You assume that Lisa was mad you didn't tell her sooner. Perhaps she was mad that you forced him to tell her when she'd RATHER NOT KNOW. There are those people, you know. And you forced her deal with what was a dealbreaker to her. He did tell his W and he left her and he is still not your friend. So your limit was higher, no? Your H did suffer a loss, and I'm sure he's pissed you at now. I think you seriously need to reread everything that you've written. I mainly wrote my first post because it just screamed out at me the very obvious and being controversial as I am, gave YOU a different perspective on it. And now that you write more, I can see you're actually serious and that's JUST SCARY to me. GEL I have been respectful, why can't you be the same?
Author Caitlyn Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 Ah, the "BS is the last to know" situation. When everyone else knows that the H or W is stepping out, but no one tells the BS. It adds insult to injury once the BS finds out. It puts the friends in a terrible position of being forced to lie to the BS in order to maintain the confidence of the WS. Forced to lie continually, every time you see or speak to the BS, and every day by omission. I wouldn't want to be that friend. I'd probably do what the OP did. You hit exaclty why we (husband & I decided TOGETHER) to force his hand. Tom may have been okay with lying, but neither of us were.
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