Kit34 Posted July 20, 2009 Posted July 20, 2009 I've been reading other's posts on here and find them so useful in trying to figure out my own situation. I decided to post here to get your thoughts. My husband and I have been married for 2 1/2 years. Before that, we were together for four years. Before we got married, I found an email from him (not snooping...was left on computer) to an exgirlfriend in which he stated what a great body she had, blah blah blah. It wasn't overly sexual, but was definitely inappropriate for someone in a committed relationship. I confronted him about and he swore up and down that they were just friends and that he was trying to make her feel better about herself. I was livid and in hindsight, now regret not breaking up with him then and there. We went to counseling and he said he would never have contact with her again. She doesn't live in our state so all contact has been through email, texting, and cellphone. Fast forward a year or two later.... I'm his car waiting for him outside a store. The phone rings and the caller ID has the name of a good friend of both of ours. I answer it, thinking it's our male friend, and a female voice asks for my husband. I say "who is this?" and she gives me a false name. My husband comes back to the car, I'm livid, but he confesses it's her. After much arguing, he texts her and says he won't have contact with her again. So here we are again. Another year later and I just happen to be looking at the call logs on our family cell phone bill. He's been talking to her again. I confronted him about it, he lied, and here I am. Last night I told him it was the last straw and that he should find a good lawyer. I stormed out and haven't spoken to him since. I really don't know where to go from here. I don't think he's physically cheated but gets some excitement from this forbidden friendship. My problem is that I told him the last time, if this happens again, I'm divorcing you. And at that time, I meant it. My first inclination last night was to get a divorce, but after reading others' posts on here, I'm not sure what to do. I know I deserve someone who isn't a liar and cheat but that's what he has proven himself to be. The funny thing is that I'm not nearly as upset about this as I was the first and second time it happened. I feel like he knew what the outcome would be if he contacted her again, and yet he chose to do it. Should I give up on my marriage? Is this cycle doomed to repeat? I'm exhausted from his lies.
2sure Posted July 20, 2009 Posted July 20, 2009 If you want your marriage to recover from this, it isnt a matter of ONLY deciding to want that... You have to DO something. Doing nothing except talking, as you have found out , doesnt change the behavior. My own experience with my H's infidelity is somewhat similar. His was with multiple women, basically strangers...but the need he was trying to fill was the same. It was attention, it was something secret, it was something just for him. It wasnt necessarily sex. So, you have so far established that doing nothing changes nothing. If your H wants to stay married to you , has he made any suggestions as to how the two of you, together, can help him to overcome his neediness and also how this can be enforced? Is the OW married/attached? The first thing that has to happen is that she and anyone she is involved with have to be brought up to speed . They all have to be informed that no one is in the dark anymore. Any way that contact between them, or any other OW has to be taken away. Change of all phone numbers and email addresses including professional. Your H has to understand that he no longer has privacy. Because you care for him , you must be willing to make sure of this. Your H has to reflect, has to own this 100%, has to be sorry and also has to figure out why he did this. If he cannot come up with a why, then at least find the reason he was able to do it. These things are harsh. You both have to be willing to do the heavy lifting here. If you cant , or dont want to...then either bail or expect more of the same.
Teslacoil Posted July 20, 2009 Posted July 20, 2009 I think more information is probably necessary for me to make any kind of recommendation as to what you can do. So far all we know is: This is an ex-girlfriend who he lies about talking to. Other than the fact you don't WANT him talking to her, does his talking to her hurt anything? Is he in love with her? Are they friends? What do they talk about? Has he told you WHY he keeps talking to her and hiding it from you? Do you believe his answers? If you're willing to give up your marriage because of this, I'm GUESSING it must be pretty severe, but that's only a guess. How are you two doing as a couple besides this issue? Are there a lot of other troubles and this is "the last straw", or is this one huge blight on an otherwise strong and healthy relationship? My initial thinking is that unless he is in love with this girl and wants to leave you for her, that this isn't something to abandon your marriage over. It sounds more like you need to begin counseling, and communicate with each other better. Find out why he feels the need to continue speaking to this ex-girlfriend. (and I mean find out as in communicate with your husband, not going spying) Good luck!
Author Kit34 Posted July 20, 2009 Author Posted July 20, 2009 Good points. I've attempted to answer your questions here. If your H wants to stay married to you , has he made any suggestions as to how the two of you, together, can help him to overcome his neediness and also how this can be enforced? No, we certainly haven't had that discussion. He keeps insisting that it's just about their friendship but I know that's not the case. He's obsessed with her love life and who she is dating. I am pretty confident that he loves the attention and that she makes him feel like a younger part of himself. One issue I have is that I don't like the idea of forcing him to change cell number, email, etc and that I'd be monitoring him. I feel if it doesn't come from him, then he's not really committed. Is the OW married/attached? No, she is single and dating.
White Flower Posted July 20, 2009 Posted July 20, 2009 It sounds like he needs serious and harsh punishments to make any changes. When my exH gambled (this was very much like his OW in my mind) I kept on forgiving him. I needed to prove that my love for him was going to get him through. Boy, I was so wrong! My gut feeling, not having met your H, is that he's always had secrets from you. Secrets within a M is not good, unless you are good at burying your head in the sand and it doesn't sound like you're willing to do that to me. Best of luck, WF.
Author Kit34 Posted July 20, 2009 Author Posted July 20, 2009 Teslacoil: Other than the fact you don't WANT him talking to her, does his talking to her hurt anything? Is he in love with her? Are they friends? What do they talk about? Has he told you WHY he keeps talking to her and hiding it from you? Do you believe his answers? I don't know for sure if he's in love with her, but my hunch is that he has strong feelings for her. She broke up with him and in hindsight, now I realize that so many of our conversations from when we first started dating to where we are now nearly 7 years later, seem to revolve around things going on in her life. Only he never lets me know it's about her, but if you put the pieces together, it's clearly about her. That tells me that she is always on his mind. He also hasn't told her that we're married. He says he talks to her since they are friends, but wouldn't you let a friend know that you're married? How are you two doing as a couple besides this issue? Are there a lot of other troubles and this is "the last straw", or is this one huge blight on an otherwise strong and healthy relationship? We have a solid friendship. Our sex life is pretty much nonexistent. Last night he told me that was because I've put on a lot of weight and that he wasn't attracted to me. Other than that, we get along fine. This is the one issue that keeps coming up and that he refuses to see the hurt it causes me. (Not making excuses, but I now see that the hurt this caused a year ago to me began a downward spiral in which I started gaining weight. I think a part of this is that he seems to see her as this sexy beast but that I'm just not that to him.)
Teslacoil Posted July 20, 2009 Posted July 20, 2009 He also hasn't told her that we're married. He says he talks to her since they are friends, but wouldn't you let a friend know that you're married? We have a solid friendship. Our sex life is pretty much nonexistent. Last night he told me that was because I've put on a lot of weight and that he wasn't attracted to me. Other than that, we get along fine. This is the one issue that keeps coming up and that he refuses to see the hurt it causes me. (Not making excuses, but I now see that the hurt this caused a year ago to me began a downward spiral in which I started gaining weight. I think a part of this is that he seems to see her as this sexy beast but that I'm just not that to him.) Ah ha. Well, this guy is definitely one heck of a something-or-other. How old is he? Because he's acting like a 14 year old who kissed a girl at summer camp, and then keeps writing love letters back and forth but won't tell her that he already has a girlfriend. I'm sure as soon as he told this ex-girlfriend of his that he's married, if she has any brains at all, she'd freak out and stop talking to him. He's carrying on a teenage fantasy by continuing to talk to her, and it sounds like he's pouring significant emotional resources in that direction. On top of that, he's somehow naive enough to believe that his carrying on with her doesn't hurt you. He's specifically choosing to continue hurting you over giving up his fantasy friendship with this ex-girlfriend. My advice would be to: A) Tell him to get on the phone with her while you're in the room. Tell him to tell her that he's married, and he can't talk to her anymore. Even better if you can be on the phone also (as a passive listener) to hear what she says. Don't talk to her or call her on your own. B) Begin marriage counseling. This is troubling behavior. In my mind he's a short time away from concocting business trips to go out and visit her behind your back. I think your marriage can still be saved if you both want it to. If your weight is a problem, consider beginning an exercise program, maybe do it together. Exercising can be a wonderful stimulus to the sex life. It boosts your metabolism and can increase sexual desire.
Author Kit34 Posted July 20, 2009 Author Posted July 20, 2009 You nailed it. This is exactly how I think things are happening. He's lovesick for his old life when times were freer and he didn't have responsibilities. For whatever reason, this woman represents that. He's 43, by the way. One question I have is if this would be considered an emotional affair? It's clearly got some of the qualities, but the contact is not as frequent as many other cases I read about. He has contact with her about once a week. This woman does know that I exist (since I answered his phone that day and I know he's talked about his girlfriend to her). But she doesn't know he's married. I am absolutely going to demand that he contacts her with me there and tells her he's married. I wonder how he'll respond? If he refuses, we're history. I really don't want to be the initiator of marriage counseling. We've already done that (at my request) on this same issue once before and it obviously made no impact on him as we're right back here again. If he suggests it, then I'll go, but right now I don't think he'd be truly committed to it if it's my idea. Once I got my head around this situation and got a backbone, I did start exercising a few months ago. This is before he told me that he found me unattractive. I've already lost 15 pounds so I'm proud of that. I've got about another 15 to go and if things continue with him the way they are, I'll reach that point sooner than later as I have zero appetite. I guess that's one perk!
delajoonal Posted July 20, 2009 Posted July 20, 2009 imho...i have been thru this same thing...and as much as i love/loved my H...and even if HE wanted to reconcile...i could NEVER trust him (H) again... i was told the same lines... 'she is just a friend', there is NOTHING going on, i will stop talking to her (OW), i have stopped all contact with OW.... guess what...she still emailed, he still called her cell...etc... IT did eventually stop within a few weeks...after i called OW and her H..LOL... but even after that..the lies were too easy for him...i had movie ticket stubs in my hand that i found in his pockets (laundry day)...he sat on the phone with me for 50 minutes claiming to have been working with his brother at that time on that day... finally when i said that a mutual friend saw him at the movies with OW...he finally confessed...but it took nearly an hour..and my point is this... had i NOT had those movie tickets..i would have believed him...he was NOT backind down, until i said someon saw him... and there were many many more lies even after that...it was pathetic and gross.. so no matter how much i still love H..or think i do..i could never go back to him... too many lies...i would be constantly asking what is he doing on the computer , who is he talking to on the cell, checking the cell phone bill...etc.. oh the by the by, my H took my name off the cell bill so i can't look at he calls anymore..LOL....its better, i felt a sort of relief..i was constantly checking the bill onlien daily every hour sometimes to see what new numbers or consistant old numbers were coming up... sorry to ramble..LOL...but i think you get what i mean now... there just won't be any trust..no matter how much you try now... but this is just my opinion.. from my own experience...someone else may have had a better luck then me with MC etc.
Teslacoil Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 One question I have is if this would be considered an emotional affair? It's clearly got some of the qualities, but the contact is not as frequent as many other cases I read about. He has contact with her about once a week. Sort of a gray area? But does it really matter? To me an "emotional affair" is a situation where two people think they're in love with each other and dump their emotional resources into that relationship but are unwilling/unable to physically be together. Your husband sounds like he's still being your husband (aside from the sex life part) so he hasn't completely detached from you yet. If you went through marriage counseling for this exact same issue before, I'm really curious why he continues to keep contacting her. What did the marriage counselor have to say to him about this "friendship" he continues to maintain? Unless the first marriage counselor was a very poor counselor, it sounds like another round of counseling might not help much.
Owl Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 One issue I have is that I don't like the idea of forcing him to change cell number, email, etc and that I'd be monitoring him. I feel if it doesn't come from him, then he's not really committed. Here's the thing. You're not dealing with your H when he's "normal". You're dealing with him in a whole new light...as an addict. Face that, and accept it. It's the base truth here, and if you ignore it, your efforts are very, very unlikely to succeed. You don't trust an addict to do it on his own. They CAN'T. Your H is addicted to the OW in some ways...and therefore he can't do it on his own. He needs your help to make it stick...at least until his mindset breaks and he's able to manage his addiction on his own. That's why you DO need to insist that he change his contact methods, and you DO need to monitor him until he does become trustworthy again.
Author Kit34 Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 If you went through marriage counseling for this exact same issue before, I'm really curious why he continues to keep contacting her. What did the marriage counselor have to say to him about this "friendship" he continues to maintain? Unless the first marriage counselor was a very poor counselor, it sounds like another round of counseling might not help much. We went through counseling about this before we got married. I will say that I thought the counselor did a bad job and that my H definitely wasn't committed to change at that time. He simply agreed with what the counselor said as a means of getting through the situation. By no means do I think he actually thought what he was doing was wrong, even though he pretended to go along with what the counselor was saying. Things might be different this time as he's been in therapy himself for over a year for depression. Maybe if we went to counseling again, this time he'd take it more seriously. On a side note, I left the house on Sunday night and haven't seen or spoken to him since. He left me a note saying that he could understand why I was angry but that it didn't seem like I wanted to be in the marriage anymore. This part was definitely true after our fight. I told him to get a lawyer since I'd already given him an ultimatum a year ago about this situation, but that he broke that once again. Divorce was what the ultimatum threatened if he contacted her again. He said we could talk about it when I got home from work. However, I was so mad yesterday still that I didn't go home from work and haven't seen him since. So I'm left wondering what to do. It's been two days since I've had contact with him.
2sure Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 I understand that you want any initiative toward solving this problem and recovery to come from your husband. The logic is sound - its his problem, he created it. But thats just not the way it works. Yes, your H is behaving in a destructive way. But you BOTH have to do the heavy lifting here. Together. If he cannot see his way clear as to what the right thing to do is...thats unfortunate but not unusual. You have to take the lead, tell him what he needs to do, and enforce it. Taking those steps doesnt fix the problem or your husband. BUT those are the steps required to create a window of opportunity for you both to repair the damage and the marriage. The first step is to take the power away from this secret relationship. Call the OW and tell her everything . He is married. To you. He is having some sort of midlife crisis and you would appreciate her not particpating. She will probably think he is an idiot and back off. THEN you can begin to address the rest.
2sure Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 To be honest, its strange that.... Your H knows it is wrong that he has stayed in contact with OW. He has hidden his marriage to you from her. And not only does he continue to betray you ....but he almost sounds as though even though he knows it is wrong....he doesnt care. You might want to check out Narcissist behavior. It was enlightening to me.
Author Kit34 Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 I took your advice. I just sent her an email saying that she doesn't know me but that I am H's wife and that our relationship is on the rocks due to his dishonesty about his relationship with her. I asked her to let me know the status of their relationship and whether she knew he was married. I doubt if I'll hear from her. Most likely she'll contact him and he'll be livid. Should be interesting.
2sure Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Kit - you did the right thing. The first time my H lied to me, I did nothing and got the same results you have. The next time I did things right. I fought for my sanity, my self respect, my marriage. Some would say I fought my own husband or at least his behavior. And I did. Ultimately we did it together. But it was me who had to do the initial heavy lifting. I considered it as though it was his problem and he for some reason could not solve it. So I helped him. When I spoke to OW (and there were a few). I introduced myself and simply explained that the contact had to stop. That I was uncomfortable with it and that at this point it was done. It seemed that making myself a known factor , a real person, was enough to make them feel the contact wasnt worth it. My H was furious and humiliated. Which was good. HE needed to be the victim of his own actions for him see they were not harmless.
Author Kit34 Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 2sure, I really appreciate your advice with this. I'm just at such a loss and feel so confused. I don't want to lose our marriage, but I also want to find a way to stop the betrayal. Did your husband's OW know that he had a wife? Or was he playing the same game that mine is? I'm curious how he got over being furious and humiliated. I know that's coming with us once I tell him that I contacted her. Was there a way that you phrased it to him to help him realize that he was the own victim of his actions?
2sure Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 It was tough stuff Kit. I had to get over the idea that I was being a bitvh, invading his privacy, or violating his personal space. Honestly, prior to my actions those were the things that stopped me. I was polite. I didnt want to call him a liar. In the end I just told him the buck stops here. YOU have a problem. You havent fixed it. I want to save this marriage, so now I"M FIXING IT. My way. My way or the highway. YOU have proved yourself unable to man up, you have not protected me. NOW, I'M IN CHARGE. Period. I am and will check all of the cell phone records and have your email passwords. OR WE ARE DONE. I asked no questions. Listened to no explanations. I didnt want to have to do these things. I wanted him to be the man I thought I married. In the end, after it was all over - it turned out he also wanted to be that man.
Author Kit34 Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 2sure, I will try this approach. I certainly feel the same way. He'd not taking responsibility, so I will. If he doesn't like it, he knows where the door is. I think I've finally reached a point where I'm ready to do this. Hopefully he will come around. If not, at least I can say I tried.
Author Kit34 Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 Forgot to ask.... how long did it take for him to come around to see that he also wanted to be that man? (Just trying to figure out what's in store for me)
2sure Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 You know what, it didnt take long at all. Because he wanted to be the man I needed him to be. Once I stopped the dialog , he stopped the lies. That alone changed something. Sometimes I was more angry that he would risk me, our marriage over something that was so...really not that important to him. It was a habit, a distraction. Odds are good your H will replace OW with a red sports car or a video game. Sounds funny? Its not.
2sure Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 I think I've finally reached a point where I'm ready to do this. Hopefully he will come around. If not, at least I can say I tried. Nothing to Lose. Its an interesting and effective place to change your life from. Always.
Snowflower Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 I fought for my sanity, my self respect, my marriage. Some would say I fought my own husband or at least his behavior. And I did. Ultimately we did it together. But it was me who had to do the initial heavy lifting. I considered it as though it was his problem and he for some reason could not solve it. So I helped him. 2sure, I like your honest, cut-to-the-chase attitude that you seem to have about how you dealt with your husband's infidelity. Please forgive me if I say this wrong, but you seem to have put what happened in your marriage into its proper perspective. Rather than going on and on about how your H wronged you (which of course he did), betrayed your wedding vows, etc., instead you talk about what positive things came out of the ordeal. I like your perspective!
2sure Posted July 22, 2009 Posted July 22, 2009 My H and I have now been married 4 years. His cheating behavior came basically with the marriage but I didnt know it. So, there were no years of history behind us. His perception and how life affected him alone was all he ever had to go on. It was narcissist. I on the other hand , had entered the marriage as vulnerable as I always had been. From the crisis, his perception of himself now includes me and my daughter. His "narcissism" is still there, but the focus is not him alone, it is the family unit. I learned that I am not a victim, that I dont have to lie down. We both had to step up to the plate.
Author Kit34 Posted August 17, 2009 Author Posted August 17, 2009 It's been a little over a month since this happened. I'm still in a state of confusion. We've been to two counseling sessions but I simply don't think we're making any progress. My H keeps bringing up that I'll never trust him again and in that case we're doomed to divorce. Rather than being apologetic, he just gets mad. I've been having a really hard time connecting with him. At home it's like two strangers living different lives. He lives in one bedroom and I live in another. We rarely see each other and when we do, it's simply small talk about how your day was, etc. I realize that a part of this has been me pulling away, partly because I don't know how to act like nothing is wrong and partly because I'm still pissed at him. Now I feel that he is pulling away from me and giving up. I'm really upset today. I honestly don't know if we can survive this as I don't feel as though he is truly sorry and without that, I don't feel as if things will change. We have another session on Wednesday, but I'm just trying to stop myself from crying here at work today. I sent him a text about a trip we were supposed to take this weekend asking if he still wanted to go, but he hasn't responded. Now I think he's trying to turn the tables on me. I'm just trying to get through the day. It's not a good one today.
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