Therapy through storytelling

[justdana]

Hello, all...

 

For six years, I have been involved with a passive-aggressive man who has such a deep attachment to his mother that it would make Freud salivate (he's 30, I'm 32). Three times in our relationship, he has tossed me aside in as cowardly a manner as possible at his mother's behest, the last time having occurred just four days ago as we were about to make an offer on a house (we were due to elope in mid-August). Mommy found out and called him to the carpet on it. After this, he called me and made some lame excuse for why we couldn't see each other that night, and eventually admitted that he was feeling rather rotten and having doubts after talking to his mother. He told me his biggest fear is an uncertainty of the future either with or without me, and that he just needed time to think. Although I didn't relish the idea of giving him MORE time to think after all the time he's already had, I came to the conclusion that if time is what he really wants, it is time he shall have.

 

It's pointless.

 

He's going to do the same thing this time he's done all the other times before, which is simply let this slip into the ether. He has no plans to work on anything, but neither does he intend to end the relationship. As much as I would love to believe it's because there's something about me he loves and just can't let go of, I have learned by now that it's simply the fear of disappointing me that he cannot face. Any lingering attachment to me comes from the length of time we have been together and the comfort factor. He knows I'm going to be there. I always have been, right? Each time he's dumped me, I eventually find the strength to move on. It eats him alive and he comes running back with proclamations of love and readiness for marriage. And friends, it sends me over the moon. Suddenly, all is right and happy with the world, and I'm right back in it.

 

What I am in the middle of doing now is changing the game. After each break (or break-up), I'll sit and think of all the good times and pine away over him. This time, I'm going to hold onto the hurt. The anger. The lack of respect. All the times he's told me what I wanted to hear to exercise control over me for no better reason than that he can't stand to see someone else have me. If he truly wanted this, or me, he would be concerned that I haven't eaten since Monday, or that I've been crying in my office all week just waiting for some kind of sign that he either wants this or doesn't. He would be right here with me to work things out. Nothing his mother says to him would matter as much as the fact that he loves me. What I must come to terms this time is that he is doing none of those things; therefore, it's not love. It's not respect. It's cowardice and game-playing, and I have no room in my life for either.

 

Still, why is it so unbearably difficult to let it go? I know I'm better than the treatment I have received, but why does it hurt so much to lose the potential for good when all you've ever seen is bad?

 

Anyway, any discussion this could open up would be great. I've scheduled an appointment with a counselor for Monday, but I'm wondering how in the heck I'm going to get through the weekend. It scares me, honestly, just the enormity of the hurt.

[broken_promises]

Ugh... I just got out of a similar situation with a commitment phobe who just kept promising things like moving, selling his house, etc. with no follow through whatsoever. Rather than be honest with me (and, more importantly, himself!) he just kept stringing me along even though it was evident that he was either too scared or not sure or not able to make a true commitment to me. Each time, I swore up and down that I would maintain new boundaries, gave him the benefit of the doubt, and basically changed my entire life around based on my hopes for the possibility of commitment from him further down the line. Each time whatever excuse he gave me was solved, he would come up with another reason why things were too hard to commit to me. And you know what all of the silence and changing my life got me?

 

A breakup after wasting even more time hoping things would change.

 

Stay strong this time. The potential is not worth more wasted time on this guy because the potential is, essentially, just your hope that things will change. If I could go back and breakup with my ex two years ago after the first major broken promise, I would in a heartbeat. But that damn hope for the potential commitment just kept me blind!

 

I always use the metaphor (and forgive it if you aren't into poker) that I have the same difficulty at the poker table when I have already invested a ton of chips into the pot and even though I *know* the other person probably has me beat, I still have the HARDEST time folding my cards because I've already invested so much and I want to see if it plays out in my favor. Unlike poker, however, relationships rarely give you a last minute change of luck. People are much more predictable than a deck of cards, sadly enough.

 

You can do it. You have made an appointment with a counselor, which is great. It means you are working on YOU now. And, as hard as it will be, you will make it through the weekend and the breakup. And I highly recommend the two Greg Behrendt books (Just Not That Into You and It's Called a Breakup Because It's Broken) to help put male behavior into better perspective.

[justdana]

Yes, I've read excerpts from the latter Behrendt book and have found it to be both hilarious and applicable, so I'll probably go and pick that up tomorrow. I'll be at work late this evening because I went over my lunch break by thirty minutes trying to reapply all the makeup I cried off this morning.

 

He finally called me about an hour ago. Although I am keeping my hand close (LOVE that poker metaphor!), at least being extended the courtesy of having an open conversation about all of it meant a lot. Apparently, when his mother found out about our pending nuptials and plans to buy a house, she flipped out. I hear it was a three-hour long, one-way screaming match with his stepfather and brother brought along for the "intervention" (they said nothing). At any rate, he said that his need for time and space came after our reactions (I lost it too, admittedly) combined to put him in a very bad place, so he needed distance from us both.

 

At the end of the conversation, he asked if we could talk in person. I told him that I didn't know if that would be a good idea right now. He asked me to let him know when it is, and then we ended the call. So I guess I've discovered that I need time to think, too. I'm going to postpone this until I've at least had a chance to speak with the counselor, if not far beyond that point. And, if by some miracle this should actually get worked out, I would make it contingent upon his receiving counseling, as well. His mommy issues run deep.

 

By the way, there are no words in the English language or any other language I can speak that could adequately convey his mother's hatred of me. It's quite mutual, too. She and I had a blowup argument about three and a half years ago over her sticking her nose in our business (we had an argument and she RENTED HIM AN APARTMENT so that he could "get the hell away from [me]"), and that has pretty much made it impossible for us to ever have a good relationship. Recently, she had finally accepted that we were seeing each other again, but finding out it was going to the next level was too much for her to stand. The woman is insane.

[Thomas X Forever]

Someone will ALWAYS choose their parents over their partner, IN THE END. ALWAYS. And you say he has an abnormally close relationship with her? That just speeds up the time before "the end" I was speaking of.

 

Just ****ing run, you will lose.

[justdana]

While I am inclined to agree with you based on BF's behavior, ThomasX, I can state categorically that I have never chosen a parent over this guy, any other guy, or any single thing I have wanted to do, for that matter. When the parent/child relationship is a healthy one, parents don't make you choose or base their love and affection on how willing you are to bend to their whims. This is not to say either of my parents agreed with all of my choices. In fact, they have rarely agreed with any of them, but they did not make me choose between them and anything. Then again, maybe my parents are weird.

 

I agree with your sentiment that I will lose with THIS one, though, although I am honestly not ready to run just yet. That's kind of the point of all this... working through the attachment and memories to get to a place where the only thing that matters is that anytime he's given the choice, Mommy's going to win.

[Thomas X Forever]

Yes, he has a sick relationship with her. And she is sick in her relationship with him. There are many terms in psychology for this, but they're just labels... although I normally do love throwing labels around... it's simpler to just say this is bad news.

 

You would choose your parents over someone, if it called for it. Well, at least if you are the "normal" (and I define normal as how the average person would act on average) type of person. Aka, if you're like most people, you would choose them. Doesn't have to be conscious, or anything, but you'd side with them over someone you loved, if it called for it.

 

And this guy has a demented relationship with her, so it's just practically a laughing matter, this situation. You have no chance, none at all, and even less of one than the average person, because he has a demented relationship. I'm telling this to you not to put you down, not to make you feel bad, not to make you feel like you have nothing... but rather to help you. Rather to make you see, make you understand, and most of all, make you prepare.

[justdana]

Also, Thomas, I read your thread about fighting.

 

I have fought for six years with this one. Through all but one prior break/breakup, I immediately did everything I knew to do to let the guy know that I wasn't giving up on him. And yes, I'll be the first to admit that in every single instance, it worked. NC is too hard for me with this one because for whatever reason, I have learned that by simply reaching out to him, he comes right back. We have an almost Pavlovian response to each other when it comes to this stuff now. Is it because of the time spent together? Obsession? Codependency? Who knows, right? I just know that when I put my hand in the cookie jar and keep pulling out these delicious cookies, the temptation to continue doing the same is too great to overcome. I may have finally lost my appetite, though, so we'll see what happens.

 

Wow. I hijacked my own thread. Neat!

[Thomas X Forever]

Welllllllll, the way you are describing this, aka how you show him attention and he comes running back, that sounds like dependent personality disorder. Or just because that's how he see's women, thanks to his mom. The harder they fight, the more attention they show, then the more he embraces them. Because it's always been that way with his mom, it seems. She doesn't leave him alone, she shows him too much attention and exerts too much control, so he perceives this now as normal. You fight and act too eccentric, he embraces it.

[justdana]

He's a classic passive-aggressive (PA).

 

He learned through having Mommy beat into his head throughout his childhood that the expression of any negative emotion -- sadness, anger, disappointment -- was a terrible thing. She did the same thing with his two younger siblings, one of whom is now deceased (she developed a drinking problem and got herself killed behind the wheel of a car), and the other, who apparently is headed down the same path as the BF in question. At any rate, this leads us to an adult who would rather rip off his own arm and eat it than show anyone he doesn't like or doesn't want to do something. He makes promises to do it, but will SHOW you that he has no intention of doing so via obstructing progress like there's no tomorrow. For instance, let's say there's a band in town you really want him to take you to see, but he thinks they're crap. Rather than tell you, "Find someone else to go with, they suck," he says, "Yes, dear." And while you're thinking you're about to have some awesome seats for this show, he managed to put off getting them until the show is sold out. Then, when you ask him why he did this, he says, "Hey! I was busy! Get off my back and stop being such a nag!" Then he sulks for a week and you begin apologizing to him profusely, all the while ignoring that the issue was created to begin with by his aversion to confrontation or disappointment, his refusal to tell you the truth -- that he didn't want to go -- because he was terrified you were going to have a meltdown if he did. Not any wrongdoing on your part.

 

That kind of thing.

 

I don't think I've ever acted in an eccentric manner, actually. With PA men, they all eventually DO realize their role in screwups, albeit usually only in retrospect. Each time I've fought, I've done so not through promises of changing, but through trying to create a safe place for him to emote. Sounds all gooey and psychobabbly, but he appreciates it. By the time we're on the outs, he has so much running through his head and heart that he explodes, letting it all out at once. We hold each other close and it's beautiful, really. It is those conversations, those moments that are the most honest. But it doesn't take much to spook him back into not wanting to express displeasure with anything again, and the cycle repeats itself.

 

His mother, for the record, has never fought for him. Only for herself. She has dedicated her entire life to asserting control over every person close to her by threatening to cut them off, emotionally or financially (or both), if they dare cross her. It has worked with every man she's married and all three of her children (until the middle one went off the deep end and just said, "F*ck it."). I've seen the man at his best and I know he's better than that, if he'd just stop taking the easy way out.

 

And yes, I know it's not my job to do this crap for him. That's just enabling. He has to want to do it, and this is why I am actually going with NC this time.

 

p.s. - We've already had some therapy over this. He just didn't stick with it. I did.

[redmelon]

You come across as assertive, proactive, self aware, and intelligent. You need to ask yourself why you keep putting yourself in this situation, and don't fool yourself that it's merely love - it's more than that.

 

The more you continue to evaluate yourself and your part of this pattern, the better off you will be. You are right, you can't change his behavior, and it IS poor. The "mommy issues" are long standing patterns that will be extremely hard to break. Since he has discontinued therapy, it doesn't sound hopeful that he is in a place to make the change necessary for there to be healthy boundaries in his relationship with her OR you.

 

I feel like I see quite a bit of myself in what you've said about your situation. I've listened to the "breakup because it's broken" but I think maybe you'd benefit a lot more from another audiobook I purchased "Codependent No More" by Melody Beattie.

 

Even if you decide that codependency isn't the issue, this audiobook will talk about boundaries and self worth, and issues that you seem to have in this relationship and may repeat in the future. Whatever you do, please make it about YOU and not trying to figure him out, or steer him in a certain direction. It has to be about you, or it's a waste of time.

 

I think you are on the right track - try to keep on this path of moving forward and avoid the same backslide as in the past. I am hopeful that you are seeing this situation is most likely doomed to play over and over again endlessly, leaving you unable to feel secure, unable to trust what happens next, and basically walking on eggshells. You deserve more.

 

Everyone has a different measure for how much of this sort of treatment they "need" to endure before they can really break away. Do you think you are there this time?

[justdana]

Thanks for your reply, Redmelon.

 

Avoiding the inevitable backsliding is difficult when he reaches out to tell me he loves me and has not cancelled our upcoming travel arrangements (which he has done twice since I started this thread; typically, any "breaks" have been more on the order of weeks or months, not days, which makes this feel a little different). Still, I am committed to LC (was NC, we both screwed that up) until that time comes, and either we board the plane together, or we are done for good. He agrees that if we are to continue this, that it should be marriage; after all, it has been six years, and he knows he does not want to be with anybody else. He swears to me that this is not the issue and that this is not a "break," per se. It's space, he says, just to recollect his thoughts and decompress from Monday's blowup. If I had to speculate -- and you can be sure I have -- I'd say what he's dealing with has everything to do with building himself up to endure his mother's wrath when he goes through with this. He has spoken with his stepfather, who advised him to follow his heart. It was after this conversation that he called.

 

I'm sure everyone on this board has read excuses until their eyes bleed, and I have no doubt that this will be interpreted in much the same manner, even as I write. Still, his mother has been at the bottom of every issue we have ever faced. I'll take it a step further and say that his mother has been at the bottom of every issue HE has ever faced.

 

The college he went to right out of high school was not the college he wanted to attend, but it was her alma mater. His passive-aggressive tendencies began to unfold then when he did everything in his power to get kicked out of it. He succeeded. He floundered for a year before she pushed him into a congressional internship in Washington. He ended up making good friends and connections there, so he says it was a good experience in all. Still, it wasn't quite what he wanted. After that, he returned home and began doing his own thing, but she decided that what he wanted -- to design video games -- wasn't befitting a child of hers, so she attempted yet another life makeover for him. Unable to stand the pressure, he left for Boston for a year before coming back to where we are now. That happened about a year before we met. When we started dating, I was 26 and he was 24.

 

He recognizes he needs counseling. He attempted it and gave up on it when he said that the counselor wasn't making any sense. He didn't feel any differently. I suppose I should mention that he threw in the towel after about four sessions. I was seeing mine for about six months before I started to feel capable of change. I said in an earlier post that this going forward would definitely be contingent upon his resuming counseling, and I am sticking to that. I can love him until the cows come home, but if his mother continues to have the kind of access to his panic button that she does, it simply will not work. I'm not making him choose between me and his mother. I'm asking him to have the courage to make his own decisions, for once.

 

I'm sure all that belonged on another board. Pardon the digression.

 

I've had to think a lot about whether or not this is a self-esteem issue on my part. Realistically, I know I am an attractive woman, and I have never had any trouble finding partners. In fact, each time the break/breakup has come around, I've moved on after some time and dated plenty of other people. Unfortunately for me, I have not discovered even a fraction of the connection I have with this man. I dated one of them for about six months before I realized this guy was already ready to take it to the next level, whereas my mind and heart were still with Momma's Boy. Do I think it's because I can't do any better than this guy? I honestly don't think that's what it is. He and I are both very talented at what we do, we both have tons of untapped potential, and it feels great when we're spurning each other on toward realizing it. He's the only person I've ever been with who has done that.

 

This is where I mention that I am divorced. I was married for two and a half years before my ex-husband and I realized that we were on two completely different paths. I wanted a career and a family, he wanted a family and a stay-at-home wife. Would've been helpful if we had discussed these things beforehand, I know. Sadly, it was our daughter's entrance into the world that showed us the mistake we had made in picking the other as our partner.

 

This bit of information is tangentially related, as Momma's Boy and I are on exactly the same page with respect to how to raise children, which parent takes which responsibilities, how the children will be educated... but I guess six years is enough time in which to hash all that stuff out.

 

So, I guess I'm not really sure what else there is to say. My eyes are opened, definitely. I'm not ready to welcome him back with open arms after a few "I love you and miss you terribly" text messages or emails, or a lengthy phone call in which he discusses the reasons for needing some space AFTER he's already taken it. For all I knew, the very night before, we were getting ready to buy a house together and get married. You don't go from 60 to 0 and not end up hitting your head on the dash. I'm just playing the wait and watch game now, which is something I have not done before. We'll see if the game changer works, or if history repeats itself in part.

 

He did kind of get uncomfortable when I told him I returned his wedding band, though. He said, "Why did you do that? I haven't changed anything." I said, "Make up your mind first. If I need to get another one, I can."

[Thaddeus]

You come across as assertive, proactive, self aware, and intelligent. You need to ask yourself why you keep putting yourself in this situation, and don't fool yourself that it's merely love - it's more than that.

I was curious about this myself. Justdana says that she's been with this guy for six years. Six years, because of this:

I have not discovered even a fraction of the connection I have with this man.

Is this ill-defined 'connection' worth all this grief?

 

Justdana, despite all your protestations, there's obviously something that you're getting out of the relationship with this man. Have you clearly defined what it is?

 

I suspect - thought I'm absolutely willing to be wrong on this - that he's some sort of 'project' for you and that you think you can fix him.' Please don't take that as an insult.

 

Does that resonate with you?

[justdana]

Thaddeus, I am equally willing to admit that you might be right. This is why I am going to see a counselor again, myself.

 

I don't want to believe that's all there is to it, though. Who would? When he smiles at me, even after six years, I still have butterflies. When he touches me, my knees still go weak. Each time we have a discussion about current events or our dreams or even what to get at the grocery store, my heart skips a beat. This all sounds very sappy, but it's the truth. I know I love him with all my heart, although I'm willing to concede that perhaps there's a part of me that wants to see him get past this and realize his own potential for himself. Does that make him a "project"? I dunno, maybe. But my god, even if we never speak again, it would thrill me beyond description to know that he was ever able to achieve anything for himself, without his mother gumming up the works. I love him enough to be happy for him if he could do this, even without me there as his support.

[justdana]

One more post, and then I'm off...

 

Ninety-nine percent of my hesitation in giving up comes from genuine love; of this much, I am certain. If there is any other reason for it, it is that he has had the example set for him repeatedly that nothing on earth is worth fighting for. Whatever it is, if it malfunctions, get a new one. He makes the mistake of going to her for advice, and the advice she gives without fail is to RUN. Leave it. Don't work on it, because if it was good, the two of you would not disagree on ANYTHING. And if you don't run, then I want nothing more to do with you, and how could you so utterly disappoint someone who has done so very much for you, son?

 

I've read the emails. I've heard her speak. This is what it comes down to, time after time.

 

I want to set a better example. I want him to know that there ARE some things worth fighting for, and judging by how well this works when it does, I'd say it is. Maybe I am wrong; I don't have the answers, which is why I'm here. But ill-defined as it may be, what I feel for this man is not something I have felt before. Try as I might to get away from it, I'm always reminded of why and how it began, and that's a lot to look past. For me, anyway. I'm either really patient or really dumb, or both.

[redmelon]

A love relationship is not an example of a place where you need to set an example. Growing up and seeing other people and how they interact with their friends, lovers, and family is certainly something he's been privy to, and he definitely knows that his mother and their relationship is unusual. DOING something about it is VERY different than merely knowing the facts.

 

I believe from reading your previous post, without knowing or realizing it, you are taking the caretaking mother role here, and are now on the subsequent emotional rollercoaster. It is not your job to help him realize, or fix, or help. You are doing both of you a great disservice by taking this on, and it cannot be successful in a healthy way. Please listen to that audiobook I recommended. I think it will truly resonate with you.

 

It's okay to have flaws, we ALL do, but this relationship is NOT HEALTHY, and you need to arm yourself with the information of why and how, so that you can begin to make the changes that YOU need to make for yourself.

 

The reason it seems so passionate and amazing, this connection, is part of the codependent equation as well. Please do a little research and see if I am right. I will gladly tuck tail if I am wrong. I just sense, like I said, that you and I have walked a similar path here, I just took my walk before you did, that's all...

[moo]

Justdana, go online and look for craft ideas. Paper mache may be nice...then go and buy supplies, such as paint, newspaper and anything else you would need. Look for ideas on what to make with paper mache...or do something else that requires attention, something to do with your hands and that will be fun. Play some cool jazz...or something else that is music without words and does not sound sad, no love songs or words of love.

[boogieboy]

I really wonder what will make the mamas boy WANT to get away from his mother. Does she financially support him? Why did she have to rent him an apt, did he not have the dough to do it himself? This is a tough battle you are fighting with mamas boy and his mom.

 

If you truly have dated a ton of other guys between him, and still cant find that connection you talk about, you might have to go another way to attack him and his mom to pull him away, and keep his attention on you. I dont see it happening though.

[justdana]

@Redmelon: You're right. Absolutely right. And I will do the research and talk to the counselor about it all Monday.

 

@Moo: As long as I stay out of/away from places and don't do things that we did together, I'll be fine. The hard part is finding those things, because we did so much together. But I will look. Hard.

 

@Boogieboy: At the time, he did not. His contract position ended and the company for which he was employed did not have it in the budget to renew or make him permanent. This is how she keeps her hold on him. She paid all his bills for about a year until he got back on his feet in a non-contract position and could save a SUBSTANTIAL emergency cushion. But she brains him with the, "HOW COULD YOU DO THIS TO ME AFTER EVERYTHING I'VE DONE FOR YOU?!?!?" speech, and he's reduced to a puddle.

 

I don't wish to find another way to attack. His mother is a formidable opponent, and I'd certainly lose each time. I already have. The bottom line is this: I am who I am, and if he cannot see the value in what I bring to our relationship, then it's not worth fighting for. Not anymore. I've fought long enough.

 

I made the mistake of sending him a text message earlier that said, "I miss you." I have heard nothing from him since. This means it's perfectly fine for him to put the feelers out to see where I am, to make sure I'm still on his hook. If I make a genuine effort to let him know I care, it's ignored. His lack of response hurts like hell, but I'm very glad I did it, just so I could see for myself how I was afraid it would play out. Sometimes, the things I do to myself end up serving a higher purpose, I suppose.