Eeyore79 Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 A friend of ours is debating whether to change her surname upon marriage, given that she likes having the same surname as her kids from a previous relationship. So my bf and I were chatting about it and I told him that if we married I would be keeping my name and passing it on to our children. He flipped out and we ended up having an argument. His reasoning behind the wife changing her name is that husband, wife and kids should all have the same name as a family unit, and both I and any future kids should be proud to have his name. I see it somewhat differently: 1) My name is Irish and I am proud of my heritage. His name is German. I have no German heritage, I want to keep my Irish name. 2) I have my own identity which I am not prepared to surrender. I've had my name for thirty years and I'm quite attached to it, I identify with it, other people know me by it, I like it and I don't want to change it. 3) His name isn't very nice, I don't like it and it sounds rubbish with my first name. 4) He already has kids who have his surname - one reason I want to name our kids after me, to differentiate them. I'm the last of my family so I want to give our kids my name... he's just being greedy if he wants more kids named after him when he has some already and I have none. 5) His ex-wife was Mrs X, so I don't want to be... I don't want a second hand name and I don't want my kids to have it. His first family was named X, so I want our family to be named Y. I suggested that if he feels so strongly about a family having the same name, he is of course welcome to take mine - an offer which he refused since his kids from a previous relationship have his surname (I didn't expect him to take my name, I was just playing devil's advocate). Suffice to say he doesn't agree with my views, so we had a bit of a bust-up I am at a loss as to how I should handle this situation, beyond allowing it to blow over for the time being, but it's bound to arise at a later date and no matter how much we discuss it I'm not prepared to take his name or give it to any kids we may have.
BlackWhite Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 What planet are you from? You expect/want a man to let his children take the last name the mother? If you so strongly feel about what you feel about his ex-wife's being Mrs. X and his other children with his last name and you don't want your kids to have that same last name, YOU NEED TO FIND A MAN WHO HAS NEVER BEEN MARRIED AND DON'T HAVE ANY KIDS.
Enema Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 I think it's wrong for you to suggest you're going to keep your name and pass it onto your children when you're married. It's like you're not including him at all in decisions about his kids. It's not your call to make alone, it's for both of you to agree on. Relationships are about compromise, you could try hyphenating names, or at least the kids names, or taking a new name together. I can see why he's upset.
sally4sara Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 What planet are you from? You expect/want a man to let his children take the last name the mother? If you so strongly feel about what you feel about his ex-wife's being Mrs. X and his other children with his last name and you don't want your kids to have that same last name, YOU NEED TO FIND A MAN WHO HAS NEVER BEEN MARRIED AND DON'T HAVE ANY KIDS. The same planet where it is very common in some countries for a woman's last name to NOT change and the children take HER last name. It may not be common to you, but it is to others. Beyond that, it's a personal choice - why does it upset you so much?
BlackWhite Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 The same planet where it is very common in some countries for a woman's last name to NOT change and the children take HER last name. It may not be common to you, but it is to others. Beyond that, it's a personal choice - why does it upset you so much? Why does it upset you that it seemed to have upset me?
sally4sara Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Why does it upset you that it seemed to have upset me? Not upset with you. I'm not telling you what to do because you've shared your opinion about something. You asked the OP what planet they're from. I figured you didn't know that it is not an uncommon practice. Now you know. You started using all caps when you told the OP what she should do for having her opinion. That usually means you're yelling. I thought it was odd that you would yell over it. Since it seemed odd that one would yell about it in anger or disgust, I guessed the all caps was more an indication that the suggestion startled you for what you perceived as it's oddity. Now you know it isn't a odd practice.......so you shouldn't be as startled. I'm not sure what you're asking.......
BlackWhite Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Not upset with you. I'm not telling you what to do because you've shared your opinion about something. You asked the OP what planet they're from. I figured you didn't know that it is not an uncommon practice. Now you know. You're wrong! It's is an uncommon practice on planet earth. You started using all caps when you told the OP what she should do for having her opinion. That usually means you're yelling. I thought it was odd that you would yell over it. Since it seemed odd that one would yell about it in anger or disgust, I guessed the all caps was more an indication that the suggestion startled you for what you perceived as it's oddity. Now you know it isn't a odd practice.......so you shouldn't be as startled. Stop reading too much into what and how I wrote my sentences. Yes, it's an oddity. I'm not sure what you're asking....... Maybe you should read it again.
Thornton Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 You're wrong! It's is an uncommon practice on planet earth. Please get your facts correct before you post such glaringly incorrect statements. For example, in Iceland the members of one family will all have different surnames. The child takes the father's first name as their surname, with the suffix -son (son, for a boy) or -dottir (daughter, for a girl). Thus none of the children have either their father's surname or their mother's. To give an English analogy, if the father was named Bob Jackson, his son would have the surname Bobson and his daughter would have the surname Bobsdaughter. Sometimes children will receive the mother's name in the same way, e.g. Rachelson or Rachelsdaughter. An Icelandic woman virtually never takes her husband's surname upon marriage, so father, mother, son and daughter in one family will all have different surnames. In the Icelandic telephone directory people are listed by their first name not by their surname, because the first name is considered to be the most important. During the Middle Ages it was common for a child whose father/mother died before/during birth to be given the mother's surname, and even nowadays chlidren born to a single mother often receive her surname. Historically, most illegitimate children received their mother's surname. Surnames derived from matronyms are commonly found in Romania, and appear frequently in medieval Irish and Welsh tales. Many Filipinos and Vietnamese take their mother's name as a middle name. In the traditional Finnish system, boys received their father's name and girls received their mother's name. The name of Jesus in the Qur'an translates as "Jesus, son of Mary". There are examples of matronymics in many historical Arabic names.
BlackWhite Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Please get your facts correct before you post such glaringly incorrect statements. For example, in Iceland the members of one family will all have different surnames. The child takes the father's first name as their surname, with the suffix -son (son, for a boy) or -dottir (daughter, for a girl). Thus none of the children have either their father's surname or their mother's. To give an English analogy, if the father was named Bob Jackson, his son would have the surname Bobson and his daughter would have the surname Bobsdaughter. An Icelandic woman virtually never takes her husband's surname upon marriage, so father, mother, son and daughter in one family will all have different surnames. In the Icelandic telephone directory people are listed by their first name not by their surname, because the first name is considered to be the most important. Most, if not all countries in Asia, the children take their father's last name as their surname. Most countries in Europe and Americas are the same. In other words, taking the father's surname is the common practice and makes everything else uncommon. You need logic lessons.
Thornton Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Just because something is commonly done in Europe and Asia nowadays, that does not make it "the common practice", historically or otherwise. Many common English surnames are derived from the first name of someone's father way back in the lineage, from a time when there were no family names, e.g. Wilson, Jackson, Carlsson. Names such as O'Connor mean "grandson of Connor" in Irish, while MacKenzie means "son of Kenzie" in Scots, and Alvares means "son of Alvaro" in Portugese, Palfi means "son of Paul" in Hungarian. In Russia they still base names upon the father's first name: a boy/girl whose father was named Ivan would be called a variation such as Ivanovich/Ivanova. In the Jewish patronymic system, children received the first name followed by -ben or -bat for boy/girl, while Indian children often receive the father's first name as a surname. Often it was common to use one's place of origin as a surname, e.g. Leonardo da Vinci (Leonardo from Vinci). Surnames were also based on occupations (e.g. Cook), place names (e.g. Washington), geography (e.g. Wood), etc. When it comes to changing one's name after marriage, the common practice in many cultures is for women to keep their maiden name - for example Chinese, Italian, Belgian, French, Chilean, Korean, Vietnamese, Iranian, Malaysian and Icelandic women commonly retain their birth surname after marriage. In the Middle Ages it was common for one of lower status, male or female, to take the other's surname. Islam requires that women retain their family name after marriage. I could continue for a very long time, but you get the gist: family names are a modern development and are still not used for children or wives in a huge proportion of the world. Patronyms (and often matronyms or other types of surnames) were widely used across the whole of Europe and Scandinavia, Russia and Eastern Europe, parts of Asia and Africa, and they are still used in many countries: until fairly recently there was no such thing as a family name in most countries. For example, the Netherlands didn't start using family names until 1811, Japan in the 1870s, Thailand in the 1920s, Turkey in the 1930s.
Els Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Most, if not all countries in Asia, the children take their father's last name as their surname. Most countries in Europe and Americas are the same. In other words, taking the father's surname is the common practice and makes everything else uncommon. You need logic lessons. Oh come on. Just because it's MORE common for people to take the man's last name, it justifies that sort of sarcasm? You'd better hope you don't have any opinions/preferences/tastes that aren't shared by the majority of people then! With that said, such thing should always be decided together. NOT 'you already have kids named after you, I don't like your last name, so I'm gonna name OUR kids after me and I expect you to agree'. Huh? Where's the discussion, the compromise, the thinking together??
mark982 Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 eeyore,you come across as a "my way or the highway" type of lady.have you thought of compromise? then you wonder why bf's pizzed at you. makes me wonder what other ultimations you hand out to him.
Thaddeus Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Let's cut through the crap and get to the core of the matter. This is about power. In Western culture historically, for better or worse, the wife has taken the husband's surname and the children take his surname as well. It's a relatively recent development - within, say, the past 40 years or so - that there's been more extensive use of hyphenated surnames or women choosing to keep their own name after marriage. Personally, I think that a woman refusing her husband's surname is an insult to her husband. But that's just my $0.02.
a4a Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Keep your name. If you have kids hyphenate the last names. (shared) No reason any person should change their name they were given if they choose not to male or female. Didn't change mine and never expect my H to do so.
a4a Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Let's cut through the crap and get to the core of the matter. This is about power. In Western culture historically, for better or worse, the wife has taken the husband's surname and the children take his surname as well. It's a relatively recent development - within, say, the past 40 years or so - that there's been more extensive use of hyphenated surnames or women choosing to keep their own name after marriage. Personally, I think that a woman refusing her husband's surname is an insult to her husband. But that's just my $0.02. I think it is insulting to assume or be so hardcore that a woman would have to change her name. What is the point? Is it an emotional thing for men? I don't get the insult part at all. Not like the woman is forcing the man to take her last name. I would not find a refusal of taking my last name by my H insulting at all. He has his own name and if he likes it..... good. Sure this isn't stemming from "territorial behavior" ? Claim your mate? My property!!!? Or does it make him look like a chump in front of the other guys? I can understand the kids being named after both.. but why a spouse? You know this thread is a repeat of days of LS past.
sally4sara Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 You're wrong! It's is an uncommon practice on planet earth. Stop reading too much into what and how I wrote my sentences. Yes, it's an oddity. Maybe you should read it again. Oh. I get what you're asking now. I didn't want to assume you were acting rude when you're just uneducated. Now I know you're uneducated and rude. thanks for clearing that up!
Thaddeus Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Sure this isn't stemming from "territorial behavior" ? Claim your mate? My property!!!? Or does it make him look like a chump in front of the other guys? I can understand the kids being named after both.. but why a spouse? You know this thread is a repeat of days of LS past. See, this is exactly the reason why so many men, when asked of their opinion, just clam up and then are accused of being uncommunicative. When an opinion from the guy is different than what the woman wants, she'll launch into how wrong/patriarchal/whatever he is. Nevermind.
a4a Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 See, this is exactly the reason why so many men, when asked of their opinion, just clam up and then are accused of being uncommunicative. When an opinion from the guy is different than what the woman wants, she'll launch into how wrong/patriarchal/whatever he is. Nevermind. Yes we know this and this is how we get you to shut up and do our bidding! :lmao: really - a man cannot take a debate over his ego and emotions? So true men are victims. asked my H what is the plan for the week last night - answered : I don't know.... So I make the plans and then he is a victim of my planning Why don't men all just be gay then. Seems simpler....... and if two gay guys got married do they argue about their surnames too? Probably not.
Thornton Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 In Western culture historically, for better or worse, the wife has taken the husband's surname and the children take his surname as well. It's a relatively recent development - within, say, the past 40 years or so - that there's been more extensive use of hyphenated surnames or women choosing to keep their own name after marriage. Personally, I think that a woman refusing her husband's surname is an insult to her husband. But that's just my $0.02. Not true. Why does nobody read what I write? Historically there was no such thing as a family name; a surname would be derived from one or both parents' first names, or from a location, occupation, etc. It was used as an identifier for an individual, but the whole family would not have the same surname. Only in the last few hundred years has the use of a family name become common in many western countries, and wives and children in many countries (including some western countries) have never been expected to take a man's surname - China, Russia, Iceland, Belgium, Italy and many others are all examples of countries in which members of a family will not have the same name. In a huge number of countries, refusing her husband's surname is not an insult, it is (and has always been) the expected protocol.
Island Girl Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 OP -- you write that he is your boyfriend not your fiance. Arguing about this is kind of putting the cart before the horse don't you think? In any event the cat is out of the bag. It is important to him. It is important to you. Either figure out a compromise you both can live with or part ways before an engagement presents itself so that you can each find partners who share your same view.
2sure Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Wanting so very much to differentiate and separate the children you may one day have with him from the children he already has... There will be a much bigger issue here than a surname.
Author Eeyore79 Posted July 13, 2009 Author Posted July 13, 2009 I wouldn't mind so much about my kids having the same name as his kids, but I don't want them having the same name as his ex-wife. They would be my kids, not hers, so I don't want them having the same surname as her, especially if my surname is different. I'm not prepared to take his name and be called the same as his ex-wife, if he'd never been married it would be different, but I refuse to be "Mrs X the second". I want our family to be differentiated by name from his ex-wife and the family he had before. If I don't want the same name as his ex-wife, I'm certainly not going to give it to my kids.
Els Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Hyphenate it then, and it'll become different. It's not his ex-wife's name, btw. It's HIS name, if she took his. Unless he renamed himself after her? At any rate you can't TELL him what you're gonna do about BOTH of your kids' names, you have to TALK to him and COMPROMISE. Gosh.
BlackWhite Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Oh. I get what you're asking now. I didn't want to assume you were acting rude when you're just uneducated. Now I know you're uneducated and rude. thanks for clearing that up! I am more educated than you'll ever be. (disclaimer: with the assumption that you're not one of those who have a Phd and JD and MBA all combined together).
grae Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 I never took my husbands name. At first it wasn't exactly by choice. I found out via the first time I filed taxes that I didn't exist. Adoption gone bad....attorney didn't do everything he was supposed to do to legally change my last name. So, I just kept using what I had seeing as it was (and still is) a 3 ring circus trying to fix all of that. In hindsight, I am glad it worked out that way and and my husband doesn't care one bit. He is supporting me getting my birth name (my "legal" name) switched over to all of our credit cards, bills, drivers license, etc. He knows it means a lot to me to get it all behind me.....and that is all he cares about. He could care less what name it is as long as we are married that is all that matters. Our kids all have his last name however. Just the other night we were actually talking about this. My husband is the last in his family and so am I. We have had four children....three daughters and a son. Our son passed away in 1997. Anyhow, the subject got brought up during the geneology research we have been doing on both of our families. We were talking about how it was somewhat sad that we had no way of tracing back from grandmothers, seeing as they took their husbands names....and we can't find records of their maiden names to learn anything about many maternal lines. My husband stated that when our daughters get married, he hopes they keep their names like I did or that they hyphen them so that his last name can be carried on. Wish we woulda thought of that when we had OUR kids LOL Hubby believes that women should be able to keep their last names and hyphen their childrens names...he also believes that just because a woman gets married shouldn't be an automatic given that she wants to toss her individual identity. I believe the same thing I say keep your name or hyphen it girl.......and with your potential future children....I don't know if I would give them just your name (after all, they are from BOTH of you hun....) but why not give the kiddos hyphen names...OR you can give them two middle names even.....a middle name and a second one that is your or your husbands last name.
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