eyeswide Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 Last night I was thinking about the "Why does the OW...?" thread and I kind of laughed out loud when I thought of this: Why do so many BWs seem to say "Why would the OW even want to be with a man who's a proven cheater?" even if maybe the guy has only cheated once. It seems funny to me that I've never seen anyone say, "Yeah, I can empathize with the OW for wanting my H -- he's handsome, smart and I fell in love with him too!" I mean, do we suddenly forget that the guy once seemed like a great catch? Is one infidelity all it takes to cancel all that out in our heads? I have to confess that I actually was shocked at first to find out that the OW was into him! anyway...just kind of cracked up at this realization. Wondering what others think.
fooled once Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 Last night I was thinking about the "Why does the OW...?" thread and I kind of laughed out loud when I thought of this: Why do so many BWs seem to say "Why would the OW even want to be with a man who's a proven cheater?" even if maybe the guy has only cheated once. It seems funny to me that I've never seen anyone say, "Yeah, I can empathize with the OW for wanting my H -- he's handsome, smart and I fell in love with him too!" I mean, do we suddenly forget that the guy once seemed like a great catch? Is one infidelity all it takes to cancel all that out in our heads? I have to confess that I actually was shocked at first to find out that the OW was into him! anyway...just kind of cracked up at this realization. Wondering what others think. I am not sure I really understand your question. Why does the BS ... what? Stay? I am sure it is different for every BS. Why should she give up her family, her life, her history. Many BS CAN and DO overcome a cheating spouse. They CHOOSE to forgive for many reasons. For some women, cheating is a non-negotiable; a deal breaker per say. For many, it isn't. One instance of cheating can be forgiven. Another affair may not be so easily "overlooked". I can't begin to image what a BS goes through -- I am sure it is an emotional rollercoaster; wanting to hate the person who cheated on them; yet loving them due to history, family, etc. Maybe an affair makes BOTH people stop and think about the marriage and what can be improved up and what can't. I don't think there is a general answer ~ it isn't black and white. Could I forgive my husband if he cheated on me? I honestly don't know. Is it different if it was just a one night stand vs a full blown affair? In my mind, yes. But I have 11 years of my life invested in him; a future planned with him. I honesty don't know what I would do. As for my ex-husband, hell, I wanted him to have an affair. I wanted him to find someone else and leave me alone. I wanted him to cheat so I could have a reason. As I got older, I realized I didn't need for that to happen; I could choose on my own to divorce him (which is what I did) because he was/is an alcoholic who never truly invested in our son. When I told him I wanted a divorce, the man I always had hoped for showed himself for a few weeks - begging me to give him another chance, begging me to teach him how to be a better husband and father. By that time, too much damage had been done to the love I had felt for him. So, I am not sure if I answered your question or not; but I don't think there is a generic one-size-fits-all answer.
MWC_LifeBeginsAt40 Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 My MM's therapist told him that he is a one-woman man. He is not a womanizer or a serial cheater. He will probably stay married forever. I don't know and at this point neither does he. He is the type who would learn from the "one" affair and never do it again.
JessieT Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 "Why would the OW even want to be with a man who's a proven cheater?" even if maybe the guy has only cheated once. It seems funny to me that I've never seen anyone say, "Yeah, I can empathize with the OW for wanting my H -- he's handsome, smart and I fell in love with him too!" I would assume the BS fell in love with the guy when he was single. These women (and men) take huge amounts of pride in their fabulous rigid moral compass. Therefore the OP isn't falling in love with the same guy they did, they're falling in love with someone else. Now what's interesting is why after the BS chooses to stay with the proven cheater she doesn't feel like she's married to the same guy the OW. He's always foggy, it was a fantasy, blah blah blah and so the OW didn't know the real man, the one that is married to the BS.
jj33 Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 ??? How excited is someone supposed to be that other women find their husband attractive? How excited is she supposed to be that someone would think nothing of the fact that he is married? This cant be a real question. Its seems more like a provocation. An unnecessary and hurtful provocation.
Author eyeswide Posted July 12, 2009 Author Posted July 12, 2009 ??? How excited is someone supposed to be that other women find their husband attractive? How excited is she supposed to be that someone would think nothing of the fact that he is married? This cant be a real question. Its seems more like a provocation. An unnecessary and hurtful provocation. Wow! jj33...so sorry! I didn't meant to be hurtful at all- and provocative? I guess I have to confess to that a bit -- but only in that I am trying to provoke conversation because I'm trying to get to better understanding of the hurricane that has blown through my heart and the drought that seemed to proceed it. My point was really just that I've gotten the impressions that many BWs (of which I am one) have sometimes seemed to indicate disbelief that OWs would want to be with MMs given that MMs are flawed in someway -- or have at least demonstrated they are capable of cheating. But I haven't really seen anyone say "I can see why she fell for him -- I did..." Admittedly, a few have said as much, but usually it's because they seem to think that is a result of his charm and ability to manipulate. Personally, as I said, I was initially surprised that my H's AP fell for him. I wouldn't have expected it, ever. But upon reflection I started to think, well you fell for him all those years ago -- you thought he was all that and you still really do, so why not? And why not be able to kind of forgive her for as much? Sorry I seemed to be stirring the shyte. Maybe my H is right. Maybe I should just leave this place alone. If it's not helping and I'm doing harm, I'd best go elsewhere.
jj33 Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 Apologies Eyeswide. I thought you were an OW just stirring it as there has been a lot of that going on (on both sides). Ask whatever you need to ask. Im not the moderator. Its not for me to say. And I hope it gets easier for you.
OpenBook Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 Now what's interesting is why after the BS chooses to stay with the proven cheater she doesn't feel like she's married to the same guy the OW. He's always foggy, it was a fantasy, blah blah blah and so the OW didn't know the real man, the one that is married to the BS. I believe it has something to do with the expression "When life gives you lemons, make lemonade." The BS has chosen to stay with her CH, and is trying to forgive him. The only way she can reconcile his betrayal is to view it as being caused by outside forces beyond his control, or an understandable weakness in his character that had NOTHING to do with her. I think there is also a larger factor at play, and I've pointed it out before on these boards when it became obvious: Men are not held accountable for their cheating behavior NEARLY as much as women are. They're more easily forgiven for it... maybe because on some level people EXPECT them to cheat, given their lifelong biological testosterone-driven sex drive?
Spark1111 Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 eyeswide, I could understand WHY she was attracted to him. The more difficult realization is WHY she acted on that attraction. He was married with children. I have many divorced, widowed, and single female friends who wouldn't engage a married man until he was "free" and was no longer responsibly invested in a marriage. Hell, they wouldn't even entertain separated men because there is too much emotional baggage still unresolved. Those who have dated "separated" men have frequently been disappointed because the SO has too much confusion personally as to what they want in a new relationship. On some level, they are not fully finished with the marriage. In the process of reconciling with my WS and attending intensive therapy, guess what? She acted on her attraction because she was lonely, vulnerable, and he LIED to her, claiming how miserable he was, his marriage was over, we never had sex, he was only a paycheck to me. You are my soulmate; we are wonderful together, I need to take care of my family financially and then I will take care of you. Blah, blah, blah. So yes, at some point I understand how his lies and confusion allowed her to give herself permission to have an affair. But at some point I wonder how she continued to delude herself to stay in the affair. He made no move to separate or divorce while seeing her. She knew he had to lie to me to be with her. I wonder if she began to ask herself, "what lies am I being told?" And if she ever did, why didn't she end it?
jj33 Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 Open that is SO true. Someone said to me the other day that if xMM ever left (they seem to think he is thinking about it again) that I would be blamed. And I said how could I? Its been years, I wasnt the "first" why would it be my fault. But people always blame the woman for not saying no. Look at some of La Gazelle posts on the OW board. The theory is all laid out again and again on Desties thread. The poor man, he was helpless in the face of that hussy's charms. But still if I was a W I would not think it was flattering. If I felt that way it would be insecurity over the fact that anyone at any time could want him. Its not about the OW its about the man. Either hes open for business or he is not. And if he values his vows, he needs to learn the things you learn prior to 1st grade - how to keep it zipped.
jj33 Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 Yes Spark but see my post above. Again its his responsibility to say no in the face of temptation. His responsibility to you. Just like you wouldnt go off with some fabulous man because you value your marriage, he needed to feel the same way. There are always people who find our partners attractive, and thats part of making a committment to someone. You just say no.
aeh Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Funny. I can totally see how the OW was attracted to my H. (She's married, too). But I also don't blame her at all. Well, maybe a little! LOL I blame my H for breaking his committment to me.
NoIDidn't Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Last night I was thinking about the "Why does the OW...?" thread and I kind of laughed out loud when I thought of this: Why do so many BWs seem to say "Why would the OW even want to be with a man who's a proven cheater?" even if maybe the guy has only cheated once. It seems funny to me that I've never seen anyone say, "Yeah, I can empathize with the OW for wanting my H -- he's handsome, smart and I fell in love with him too!" I mean, do we suddenly forget that the guy once seemed like a great catch? Is one infidelity all it takes to cancel all that out in our heads? I have to confess that I actually was shocked at first to find out that the OW was into him! anyway...just kind of cracked up at this realization. Wondering what others think. LOL. I can totally appreciate this thread. I was afraid it was going to say that BWs are caught in affair logic or something. LOL. I can understand jj33's first post. The title did seem provocative. On to the actual topic, I can see why the OW was attracted to my H: looks, status in the company, overall likeability to non-romantic interests, he's a really great person. But by that point in our marriage, I was shocked that anyone would be interested in the man who didn't help around the house, didn't speak unless spoken to, and seemed incapable of having a deep bond to anyone. LOL. Things were pretty bad. But, no she didn't fall in love with the same person. The person he was by the time she met him had been a husband for sometime and a lot of the rough edges of his personality had been shed. Sure, he still had most of the same personality traits, but he changed with marriage and I can't say that I was cool with sharing that with anyone else. Good question. I'm not a believer that infidelity ruins a person as a potential or continued mate (depending on the underlying reasons and type of affair, and barring a personality disorder, LOL). So I can't say that I think the OW is wrong for wanting a known cheater, just wrong for going along with helping to gaslight another human being. As far as I know, my H has only cheated once. And if its been more, I don't want to know about it as long as its in the past.
Reggie Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Open that is SO true. Someone said to me the other day that if xMM ever left (they seem to think he is thinking about it again) that I would be blamed. And I said how could I? Its been years, I wasnt the "first" why would it be my fault. But people always blame the woman for not saying no. Look at some of La Gazelle posts on the OW board. The theory is all laid out again and again on Desties thread. The poor man, he was helpless in the face of that hussy's charms. But still if I was a W I would not think it was flattering. If I felt that way it would be insecurity over the fact that anyone at any time could want him. Its not about the OW its about the man. Either hes open for business or he is not. And if he values his vows, he needs to learn the things you learn prior to 1st grade - how to keep it zipped. Not true as far as I can tell. Gender does not enter into it. In fact, many people sympathize with a WW more, assuming her BH must have been an ogre.
LaGazelle Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Last night I was thinking about the "Why does the OW...?" thread and I kind of laughed out loud when I thought of this: Why do so many BWs seem to say "Why would the OW even want to be with a man who's a proven cheater?" even if maybe the guy has only cheated once. It seems funny to me that I've never seen anyone say, "Yeah, I can empathize with the OW for wanting my H -- he's handsome, smart and I fell in love with him too!" I mean, do we suddenly forget that the guy once seemed like a great catch? Is one infidelity all it takes to cancel all that out in our heads? I have to confess that I actually was shocked at first to find out that the OW was into him! anyway...just kind of cracked up at this realization. Wondering what others think. You may not have seen it, but I have certainly said it in my posts. In fact that was one of the 2 main points on which I could empathise with the OW, even though I found the remainder of her behaviour utterly despicable. In any case, even if others don't express similar views, I think it almost goes without saying that every woman understands another woman's need or desire for a "good" mate. In truth though, many BW here do express this view - usually they get "battered" and derided by many of the OW here.
LaGazelle Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 "Why would the OW even want to be with a man who's a proven cheater?" even if maybe the guy has only cheated once. It seems funny to me that I've never seen anyone say, "Yeah, I can empathize with the OW for wanting my H -- he's handsome, smart and I fell in love with him too!" I would assume the BS fell in love with the guy when he was single. These women (and men) take huge amounts of pride in their fabulous rigid moral compass. Therefore the OP isn't falling in love with the same guy they did, they're falling in love with someone else. Now what's interesting is why after the BS chooses to stay with the proven cheater she doesn't feel like she's married to the same guy the OW. He's always foggy, it was a fantasy, blah blah blah and so the OW didn't know the real man, the one that is married to the BS. Interesting point... One of the things that struck me about my husband's dalliance with a ONS, was that he seemed to be a completely different person with her. What I realised is that men can and do treat women differently depending on the treatment each woman commands. Looking back I realised that one of the things guys often said to me on dates, was something along the lines of "I am doing my best to treat you in the manner to which I know a woman like you are accustomed/should be treated". I didn't think my H had it in him to treat a woman as nothing but cheap sex, but when I reviewed her correspondence to him,I could see that she presented herself as such and made it easier for him to explore his capability to exploit women. I initially struggled to reconcile my thoughts on which man was the real man - the gentleman or the then newly revealed "alternative", and I eventually realised it was almost like dealing with 2 different men.
Owl Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 I totally understood why OM was attracted to my wife. What I didn't understand was how he could ACT on that attraction...deliberately feed it until it grew into what he (and she) THOUGHT was love, knowing what he was doing to my marriage at the time...and all the while trying to convince me that he was in some fashion my "friend'. And I agree...my wife was also VERY much responsible for the same actions. Where I really struggled was how the two of them honestly felt that they were completely in love..."soulmates"...when they'd never had the chance to meet in person. As far as "settling" for my wife, and reconciling with her as a "known cheater"...the only reason I could do so was because I could see and understand what led to what happened. And I can see the CHANGES my wife has made since that demonstrate how much she regrets that it did happen, and show me the boundaries she's voluntarily put in place to prevent us from ever getting to that point again. Had there been no remorse...had there been no change on her part...I would have tried for some length of time (six months maybe, maybe less) and then it would have ended in divorce. But we never reached that point. Her 'fog' lifted before we reached my limit.
LaGazelle Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Sorry I seemed to be stirring the shyte. Maybe my H is right. Maybe I should just leave this place alone. If it's not helping and I'm doing harm, I'd best go elsewhere. I was wondering about this the other day when I saw a thread in which a BW clearly distraught by her recent D-Day (albeit in the phase where she is enjoying the wildly passionate sex that often comes post infidelity) was totally derided by a number of OW. Personally I have found that the best use BSs can make of this forum is to share lessons learned and so far as possible support others in pain, after their own recovery. Good luck.
LaGazelle Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 I believe it has something to do with the expression "When life gives you lemons, make lemonade." The BS has chosen to stay with her CH, and is trying to forgive him. The only way she can reconcile his betrayal is to view it as being caused by outside forces beyond his control, or an understandable weakness in his character that had NOTHING to do with her. There is a grain of truth in this, but I think as a general principle it is the utter tosh that many OW sprout when they have sour grapes. What could one possibly make with sour grapes ...perhaps cheap wine. Never mind BWs making lemonade. Personally I would prefer to have refreshing lemonade instead of cheap wine!
LaGazelle Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Open that is SO true. Someone said to me the other day that if xMM ever left (they seem to think he is thinking about it again) that I would be blamed. And I said how could I? Its been years, I wasnt the "first" why would it be my fault. But people always blame the woman for not saying no. Look at some of La Gazelle posts on the OW board. The theory is all laid out again and again on Desties thread. The poor man, he was helpless in the face of that hussy's charms. But still if I was a W I would not think it was flattering. If I felt that way it would be insecurity over the fact that anyone at any time could want him. Its not about the OW its about the man. Either hes open for business or he is not. And if he values his vows, he needs to learn the things you learn prior to 1st grade - how to keep it zipped. JJ , I am not sure I "blamed" the OW per se for not saying no . not least because she didn't need to say no when she was doing the pursuing. I have always acknowledged that my H was responsible for his decision to give in to her pursuit. Pursuing someone is not the same as succumbing to someone's pursuit. In my case, I just could not understand how the OW could pursue him so relentlessly given that he made it clear he saw her as a ONS. I have never been in the place where I felt it was her responsibility to "protect" me, but I have always felt as a woman, it is most certainly her responsibility to protect herself. At the risk of making a crude comparison ...when 2 parties are negotiating a contract, the burden of care rests on the party likely to suffer the most from any fallout. Women are the ones who typically suffer the most from the despair that comes with affairs, therefore, I feel the burden of responsibility to guard against the suffering associated with any fallout, best lies with them. Faced at the outset with such a high possiblity of heartbreak, despair, humiliation and reputational damage which she later experienced, I found it utterly unbelievable that anyone could not say "no" to such a possibility, let alone initiate and chase after it. I am not sure where you got the idea re my H being helpless to a "hussy's charms". You have no idea....
OpenBook Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 There is a grain of truth in this, but I think as a general principle it is the utter tosh that many OW sprout when they have sour grapes. What could one possibly make with sour grapes ...perhaps cheap wine. Never mind BWs making lemonade. Personally I would prefer to have refreshing lemonade instead of cheap wine! Never mind indeed!
OpenBook Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 I found a post from joyz in a thread in the OM/OW forum who explained it way better than I did: the more we love (or like) someone, the more we are tolerant and forgiving we are of their flaws. ... even when those flaws threaten to destroy us. This is true for both sides of the equation.
silktricks Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 It seems funny to me that I've never seen anyone say, "Yeah, I can empathize with the OW for wanting my H -- he's handsome, smart and I fell in love with him too!" I never had any trouble understanding what the OW saw in my husband. It didn't surprise me in the slightest that another woman would find him sexy and interesting. What surprised me was that my husband would be deceitful to me, as that was not the history we had together
Snowflower Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 JJ , I am not sure I "blamed" the OW per se for not saying no . not least because she didn't need to say no when she was doing the pursuing. I have always acknowledged that my H was responsible for his decision to give in to her pursuit. Pursuing someone is not the same as succumbing to someone's pursuit. In my case, I just could not understand how the OW could pursue him so relentlessly given that he made it clear he saw her as a ONS. Very similar to my situation with my husband's infidelity. As my H and I sorted through things after our reconciliation and he explained how his ONS happened, I could almost understand it better than he could. After all, the OW and I are both women (obviously!) and so I could understand her mindset - to a degree. Women tend to understand one another so I could somewhat 'figure' her out by reading some of her emails and by what my H had told me about her. About the pursuing thing...yes, she did pursue my H to a point. She "liked" him and most people know when someone is interested-married or not. Our marriage was vulnerable and both my husband and I were not in a good place in our lives individually. I 100% blame him for putting himself in a bad situation, but she was not blameless either for trying to make their 'friendship' something that it would never be. In the end, I don't really care anymore what she was going after. Yes, she wanted my husband (and later my kids), but when he wouldn't budge that should have told her volumes about where his feelings really were. She was a drunk ONS for him. I hope she finds some happiness in her life, but it was not going to be from my husband.
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