sweetjasmine Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 OK, kinda got the opposite idea there for a second. At risk of sounding like a whining over emotional pregnant woman, right now I feel anything BUT selfish. There are lots of things about having kids that aren't selfish. Parents make lots of sacrifices. That's one of the reasons why I think this whole argument over whether having or not having kids is selfish is silly. Link to post Share on other sites
Angel1111 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 That's the thing that puts me off. While I recognise the unselfishness that's necessary to raise kids, the fact that many parents believe blindly that their motivation for having them is some kind of legacy, saviour to the world, or presents some kind of importance from almost a religious perspective , freaks me the hell out. I mean, I'm not even saying it's selfish to have them, I just wish people would simply state that they had them because they felt it was an important thing for THEM to do, rather than something that's important for everyone to do. It really discourages me to know that I'd be bringing up kids around the spawn of this sort of delusion. I really didn't know why I ultimately decided to have a child when I had him - but it definitely had nothing to do with any of the above things that you mentioned, although I know they are motivations for some people. I think I decided to have a child because there was a quiet space inside me that suspected that I would regret not having children, that it was a special kind of love that only a child can bring you. And, in that sense, I was right. This is not to say that I wouldn't have been a happy or complete person if I had not had any children. It's just to say that, as it is with most things in life, the more time and energy you put into something, the more valuable and rewarding it is. I believe this is true with children, and i don't really believe that people know what they're doing when they consciously make the decision not to have a family. But now that he's in college, I do have to admit that I am proud of my son and proud that I contributed to molding such a person and giving him the foundation I gave him. I know that I didn't have everything to do with who he is, but I had something to do with it. And I feel good about him going out into the world. That wasn't my original motivation for having him, but it is a nice feeling. Link to post Share on other sites
Sam Spade Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 That's the thing that puts me off. While I recognise the unselfishness that's necessary to raise kids, the fact that many parents believe blindly that their motivation for having them is some kind of legacy, saviour to the world, or presents some kind of importance from almost a religious perspective , freaks me the hell out. I mean, I'm not even saying it's selfish to have them, I just wish people would simply state that they had them because they felt it was an important thing for THEM to do, rather than something that's important for everyone to do. It really discourages me to know that I'd be bringing up kids around the spawn of this sort of delusion. Let's put it this way: why *else* have a child if not for the purpose of raising a decent, productive human that would hopefully make some meaningful contributions. In the admittedly rare cases this happens, you surely have succeeded in leaving some legacy by shaping that kid. Sure, many parents fail miserably, either because of poor parenting skills or because of bad luck, or simply because they didn't actually think if they really want a child. Link to post Share on other sites
Rudderless Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 I really didn't know why I ultimately decided to have a child when I had him - but it definitely had nothing to do with any of the above things that you mentioned, although I know they are motivations for some people. I think I decided to have a child because there was a quiet space inside me that suspected that I would regret not having children, that it was a special kind of love that only a child can bring you. And, in that sense, I was right. See, now you're starting to make sense to me. You were maternal, as many people are, have been and will be. You did it primarily out of love, and that's totally cool. This is not to say that I wouldn't have been a happy or complete person if I had not had any children. It's just to say that, as it is with most things in life, the more time and energy you put into something, the more valuable and rewarding it is. I believe this is true with children, and i don't really believe that people know what they're doing when they consciously make the decision not to have a family. This is where you're not making sense to me. Do you understand that some people simply aren't maternal and don't feel that special love inside them? It doesn't matter how much energy they put into something, if they're not formed that way in the first place. It's like asking a homosexual to put energy and effort into a hetrosexual relationship. This really concerns me, people are born different, and part of life is that there are many different types of people. Some will feel a propensity to parent, some will not. Some will feel it more strongly than others, and some will feel it's beyond their circumstances to go ahead with it. I cannot fathom why anyone feels they have a divine insight into determining what people should or should not have a propensity towards and can't just accept others as they are. Life is difficult enough without people making a prejudiced judgements on you all the time. Link to post Share on other sites
Sam Spade Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 1) Define Selfish 2) Define self interest-Are they the same? 3) Is being selfish (in the terms of having kids or not) a bad thing? \ 4) Find one thing about having kids that isn't selfish. Selfish simply means making all or most decision based on what would make me feel good, without any consideration of how it would affect others. (Just because something feels good doesn't make it selfish). So, while this is mostly a moral debate, and therefore has no right and wrong answers, basing my life decisions on what bring me maximum pleasure and least trouble is selfish for me. It is not a bad thing, just not for me. In the decision to have kids, you by definition do not only consider yourself (unless you're really screwed up). This decision concerns the actual kid, and the society that will have to tolerate him long after you're gone. So, you better do a good job, which, no matter how good feels in the end, will involve major sacrifices and tradeoffs. Link to post Share on other sites
Angel1111 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Do you understand that some people simply aren't maternal and don't feel that special love inside them? It doesn't matter how much energy they put into something, if they're not formed that way in the first place. It's like asking a homosexual to put energy and effort into a hetrosexual relationship. Good analogy. Well, actually I wasn't that maternal, either, because I waited until I was 32 before I had a child. And it was a tough decision even then. What I'm saying is that even if a person isn't that maternal, they're still missing something. That's all. Link to post Share on other sites
Rudderless Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Let's put it this way: why *else* have a child if not for the purpose of raising a decent, productive human that would hopefully make some meaningful contributions. In the admittedly rare cases this happens, you surely have succeeded in leaving some legacy by shaping that kid. Sure, many parents fail miserably, either because of poor parenting skills or because of bad luck, or simply because they didn't actually think if they really want a child. What other reason? I always thought having children was part of a natural biological instinct to procreate. Or has procreation now suddenly shifted to a logical choice while I haven't been looking? Link to post Share on other sites
Sam Spade Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 What other reason? I always thought having children was part of a natural biological instinct to procreate. Or has procreation now suddenly shifted to a logical choice while I haven't been looking? Oh, please, they call us human precisely because our reason, not our instincts tell us what to do. At the most, instincts create an urge, but I'm no vegetable to no be able to recognize for what it is. I'm no biology's bitch. Biology is my bitch. Link to post Share on other sites
Rudderless Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Oh, please, they call us human precisely because our reason, not our instincts tell us what to do. At the most, instincts create an urge, but I'm no vegetable to no be able to recognize for what it is. I'm no biology's bitch. Biology is my bitch. Actually, I thought they called us human because part of what we do is driven by biological instinct. What you appear to be describing is a vulcan. Link to post Share on other sites
bluewolf17 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Oh this thread has me just bursting at the seams with anxiety. I just love a good debate. I will come back in an hour and check on your progress. Link to post Share on other sites
DefiningSilence Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Good analogy. Well, actually I wasn't that maternal, either, because I waited until I was 32 before I had a child. And it was a tough decision even then. What I'm saying is that even if a person isn't that maternal, they're still missing something. That's all. How presumptuous of you to presume to know what others are or are not missing. Link to post Share on other sites
Angel1111 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 How presumptuous of you to presume to know what others are or are not missing. Whatever. I'm sure I mised something when I had a child. Cuts both ways, I'm sure. The bottom line is that it's a big decision to have or not have children. I hope everyone makes the right one for themselves, with no regrets. Link to post Share on other sites
stillafool Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 This is not to say that I wouldn't have been a happy or complete person if I had not had any children. It's just to say that, as it is with most things in life, the more time and energy you put into something, the more valuable and rewarding it is. I believe this is true with children, and i don't really believe that people know what they're doing when they consciously make the decision not to have a family. You sound like a good mother and the type of person who should be a parent since you love it so. But, when you say the "bolded part" above do you realize that this also happens with people who have kids? Also some people aren't thinking at all when they "oops" and have kids. Link to post Share on other sites
stillafool Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 A lot of people in homes either don't have family or can't be taken care of in a home environment. For all the others, then I would guess that they raised some incredibly ungrateful and selfish brats. But, you'll notice those old people aren't living with their friends, either, are they? I guess I should've added the obvious - raise your kids with morals and vaules so that they're not so self-involved that they don't even care to take care of their parents. Well the old people in my aunt's nursing home (that I talk to) have children and show me pictures of them and their grandkids. They tell me stories of their life and I am more than willing to listen to them. A lot of their "friends" are in homes as well. They do have church members and pastors visit them on Sundays. I am only a niece but I would never miss a week seeing my aunt. Link to post Share on other sites
Kenyth Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 I agree GT. The "uber defensive clutching at straws think of the planet" method of argument isn't going to dissuade anyone who wants children from having them, and most of the people on this thread who don't want them have decided so for more personal reasons, which is their prerogative and I respect them for that. I second this. It's a personal choice, one that entails a great responsibility. Let's not degrade people who make the choice not to take it on. Link to post Share on other sites
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