Phateless Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 That makes you cool! I ride too! lol nice. What do you ride? That's a streetfightered FZR in my avatar. As for the game, I genuinely believe it's social instruction for the awkward.
butcher's hook Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Yeah but if you bother to say a negative comment in the first place you must be really interested I mean its the classic old reverse psychology Taramere was talking about in that reflection from childhood If youre not interested in someone then you dont want to inflict pain on them or make them uncomfortable...any boob knows that yeah but if a really interested man has to get a woman's attention with an abusive or negative comment that can be hurtful to her, I don't know one woman in her right mind with a HEALTHY esteem that will go for that. Sure it may work on that "10" that every guy wants to bang but if she bites the bait on that, it more than likely means that 10 also comes with a truckload of emotional baggage. A woman who was abused in some way as a child, could be emotional or physical, will find comfort and familiarity in signs of abuse from a prospect or suitor. You call it reverse psychology I would call it breeding familiarity. The wounded seeking the wounded. That is PRECISELY what Mystery does.
espec10001 Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 You should all read the book and watch the show before making any other assertions on this subject. Most people in this thread are making statements based on assumptions, preconceptions and emotional responses to a tiny sliver of information. How can you judge something so harshly that you know so little about? I had a friend who was into this stuff. He lent me one of the books, and I started to read it to see what it was all about. And I have come to the conclusion that it IS crap. You can't believe everything you read or see. It preys upon men who haven't taken the time to understand THEMSELVES, what they have to offer the world, what their place is in the world, and who THEY really are. Nobody can tell you who you are or how you should act. That is up to the man to decide. I used to be that guy. Years ago I recently broke up with a girl and was feeling low. I was desperate for female attention and guess what? I didn't know myself or what was inside ME that I went searching for answers in someone else. I have learned these lessons the hard way that if man wants answers he needs to look to HIMSELF, not some ridiculous looking pitchman who is simply trying to make a buck. If a man is socially awkward and wants to improve his social skills, he needs to do it on HIS terms and on HIS own time in HIS OWN WAY. You might say it is selfish but not at all. When a man is on the journey of self discovery he enriches the world, and ALL of mankind benefits, not just the man. If he seeks approval and fulfillment on the outside, from other people, he will NEVER find it.
Untouchable_Fire Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 yeah but if a really interested man has to get a woman's attention with an abusive or negative comment that can be hurtful to her' date=' I don't know one woman in her right mind with a HEALTHY esteem that will go for that. [/quote'] In my opinion the total number of Healthy self esteem women out there is fairly low. Just my opinion though. On a side note... I love your Screen Name! Butcher's Hook... that is massively cool!
espec10001 Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 In my opinion the total number of Healthy self esteem women out there is fairly low. Just my opinion though. On a side note... I love your Screen Name! Butcher's Hook... that is massively cool! LOL! I don't have to look far where I'm from to find plenty of women who got it and know it. They don't take no s*** from anyone and it's damn sexy.
Phateless Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I had a friend who was into this stuff. He lent me one of the books, and I started to read it to see what it was all about. And I have come to the conclusion that it IS crap. You can't believe everything you read or see. It preys upon men who haven't taken the time to understand THEMSELVES, what they have to offer the world, what their place is in the world, and who THEY really are. Nobody can tell you who you are or how you should act. That is up to the man to decide. I used to be that guy. Years ago I recently broke up with a girl and was feeling low. I was desperate for female attention and guess what? I didn't know myself or what was inside ME that I went searching for answers in someone else. I have learned these lessons the hard way that if man wants answers he needs to look to HIMSELF, not some ridiculous looking pitchman who is simply trying to make a buck. If a man is socially awkward and wants to improve his social skills, he needs to do it on HIS terms and on HIS own time in HIS OWN WAY. You might say it is selfish but not at all. When a man is on the journey of self discovery he enriches the world, and ALL of mankind benefits, not just the man. If he seeks approval and fulfillment on the outside, from other people, he will NEVER find it. I see what you're saying and I absolutely agree. The difference is that reading Game helped lead me to that point. There is so much emphasis on how impossible it is to be attractive to women without first becoming a complete person on your own. It instructs men to develop their own interests and goals, to be independent and self-sufficient. Game is what reinforced all that for me and helped me to become a better person. It helped me realize that I needed to look inward to develop myself so that women would be interested in me for who I am.
donnamaybe Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 LOL! I don't have to look far where I'm from to find plenty of women who got it and know it. They don't take no s*** from anyone and it's damn sexy. That's right, baby! We're out there!! It's just that SOME men can't handle women like us.
butcher's hook Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 In my opinion the total number of Healthy self esteem women out there is fairly low. Just my opinion though. Really? That's a shame!! I think perhaps it would be helpful to define a healthy self esteem, we women are all kind of crazy in our own way I WILL give you that. But to truly have an unhealthy self esteem you must engage in self destructive patterns, you must feel unworthy of love. Are there really THAT many women in your area who are like this? On a side note... I love your Screen Name! Butcher's Hook... that is massively cool! Thanks!
Trimmer Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I don't aspire to these methods. I have taken some of the ideas behind the methods into consideration to help me learn to relate to people better, and it's made a difference in many aspects of my life. I get what you are saying. These ideas are not a creature called "the PUA" - they are a set of tools. Just like the advice you get on LS, a sensible person would look it all over, discard the obvious garbage, and use what applies to your own life - that which resonates with the person you really are. Other men may assume, in desperation, that it's a one-size-fits-all tool, and use it to craft a fake character, one who may fool a woman for a few minutes, or a couple hours - or long enough to have sex - but you wouldn't want to wake up next to him the next morning because the character isn't the person, and that's where the divide occurs for me. However, I believe I can understand Phate's point - if you look at it as an interesting palette of tips, techniques, possible insights into how people interact, and then you filter it and use it in keeping with who you are, maybe adjusting your approach and your confidence from a genuine angle, then you aren't just creating that character who has to zip pants up and run out the door before being discovered as a fake. It's probably a case of a man knowing himself and being honest with himself about his mood and his motives. If he doesn't have the self awareness to recognise when he's feeling angry or hostile towards women, and enough of the adult man about him to take responsibility for his feelings instead of venting them in spiked negs that are "just a joke - Jesus, lighten up", then how can any woman take seriously his claims to have some extra special insight into the female psyche? Agreed - again, for me it's all about whether you are creating a fake character to hide behind and replace the 'real you', or just trying to adjust your interactions to be able to present who you really are in an effective way. Heck, I'm a pretty "generally confident" guy, but I wouldn't mind being a little smoother with first impressions, opening banter, etc. Not to create new character, but just to help open the door... There are certainly men here who seem to have combined what they have naturally with a bit of the advice given and see it more of a guideline than a rule. Perhaps it has broadened their approach, etc. But what is spelled out and what I have seen about using lines, negs, stories and all of that would not capture my attention in the least. And yes, I would see right through it. Since adulthood I have always been immune to THESE types of advances. These seminars and books are taken literally the majority of the time. Instead they regurgitate this stuff verbatim. Which is sad because these guys would be much better off just doing some general confidence building and self esteem work while being themselves so they can find someone they like that like them. Not just a woman who is willing to have sex with them. But I'm giving Phate the benefit of the doubt and assuming that he is exactly in that more thoughtful group you are talking about, that he's intelligently considered all his sources of information for things that can help him with his "general confidence building", and that he's still intending to go out and present the person he really is, not faking a character so he can f**k and run (© Liz Phair) or vent his repressed anger at mommy on every woman he meets. (Though I grant that it sure sounds like Mystery is one messed up dude - I still reserve the right to ridicule where appropriate...) On a side note... I love your Screen Name! Butcher's Hook... that is massively cool! Dude, don't be too complimentary... Now that you have her attention, throw her a quick neg!!!!
espec10001 Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I see what you're saying and I absolutely agree. The difference is that reading Game helped lead me to that point. There is so much emphasis on how impossible it is to be attractive to women without first becoming a complete person on your own. It instructs men to develop their own interests and goals, to be independent and self-sufficient. Game is what reinforced all that for me and helped me to become a better person. It helped me realize that I needed to look inward to develop myself so that women would be interested in me for who I am. Yeah man, like I said, if it works for you then great! If you liked that book, I know a GREAT book that will send you soaring, its called "The Master Key" by L.W. DeLawrence. I highly recommend it!
samspade Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 And Sam, I want you to know that you hurt my feelings. I don't mean to hurt your feelings. I'm actually trying to help you by being blunt - but that's a topic for another thread, or perhaps a PM...
kizik Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I don't mean to hurt your feelings. I'm actually trying to help you by being blunt - but that's a topic for another thread, or perhaps a PM... Sam, you were being an absolute jerk. "You can't get laid, you have no friends, and you've spent a year on LS." All of this b/c I knocked PUAs. There's no excuse for what you said to me, and I hope you learn to filter yourself in the future.
Phateless Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I get what you are saying. These ideas are not a creature called "the PUA" - they are a set of tools. Just like the advice you get on LS, a sensible person would look it all over, discard the obvious garbage, and use what applies to your own life - that which resonates with the person you really are. Other men may assume, in desperation, that it's a one-size-fits-all tool, and use it to craft a fake character, one who may fool a woman for a few minutes, or a couple hours - or long enough to have sex - but you wouldn't want to wake up next to him the next morning because the character isn't the person, and that's where the divide occurs for me. However, I believe I can understand Phate's point - if you look at it as an interesting palette of tips, techniques, possible insights into how people interact, and then you filter it and use it in keeping with who you are, maybe adjusting your approach and your confidence from a genuine angle, then you aren't just creating that character who has to zip pants up and run out the door before being discovered as a fake. Agreed - again, for me it's all about whether you are creating a fake character to hide behind and replace the 'real you', or just trying to adjust your interactions to be able to present who you really are in an effective way. Heck, I'm a pretty "generally confident" guy, but I wouldn't mind being a little smoother with first impressions, opening banter, etc. Not to create new character, but just to help open the door... But I'm giving Phate the benefit of the doubt and assuming that he is exactly in that more thoughtful group you are talking about, that he's intelligently considered all his sources of information for things that can help him with his "general confidence building", and that he's still intending to go out and present the person he really is, not faking a character so he can f**k and run (© Liz Phair) or vent his repressed anger at mommy on every woman he meets. (Though I grant that it sure sounds like Mystery is one messed up dude - I still reserve the right to ridicule where appropriate...) Dude, don't be too complimentary... Now that you have her attention, throw her a quick neg!!!! YES, YES, YES!!!!!! Thank you!!!! You have it dead-on. Finally someone understands what I've been trying to communicate. Yes, Mystery is WAAAAY messed up in the head, but that doesn't change the fact that he really nailed some socio-psychological theories about culture, human nature, group theory, social dynamics, body language, etc, etc, etc. Personally I've always found psychology and human behavior fascinating, hence my curiosity for this whole area of study. Interesting side note - the girl who took Mystery down and turned him into the pathetic creature you see in the first chapter of 'The Game' was a little blonde Russian girl... ...just like my ex...
butcher's hook Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Dude, don't be too complimentary... Now that you have her attention, throw her a quick neg!!!! Exactly, some day when I retell the story to people of how I met the love of my life I want to be able to say: "He had me at fck off" Sam, you were being an absolute jerk. "You can't get laid, you have no friends, and you've spent a year on LS." All of this b/c I knocked PUAs. There's no excuse for what you said to me, and I hope you learn to filter yourself in the future. He's being reactive because what you originally said really hit home for him, which is far more telling of him than you! I dunno about the rest of you but I have this tendency to confuse PUA with POS. Not very good with acronyms I must admit....
Stockalone Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I watched more of Mystery's clips on youtube, since Stock and Phateless feel so strongly "for" this stuff. I didn't know Mystery before this thread. He seems to be the guy who "specializes" in bars and clubs and on how to get a ONS. If the goal is a ONS, it only seems logical that he doesn't worry about sustainability. It's simply not needed in that situation. But I have read articles about social interaction, some of them a decade ago, long before I had ever heard of PUA and the underlying principle is almost the same. At least the basics are the same, because that is how social interaction works. If you look at leadership seminars, that is also based on basic elements of human interaction. The Army actually has courses where it teaches you how to command authority, how to talk, how to stand, what body language to use. It works in that environment and from personal experience, it also works (better) than being myself in a dating environment. Mystery just looks at how to use that to his advangtage to accomplish his objective. That his goals and methods are unsavory doesn't negate that the fundamentals behind the crappy PUA front exist, it rather proves the theory right. Just to make that clear, I am not a fan of his, not by a longshot. I can see some of the value of it, in that it teaches men not to be afraid to approach women which they never should be, regardless of what level of "ten"-ness, they view her as. If they've got personality, approaching with humour will get her attention. I would go one step further. Not being afraid to approach women is only the start. You also need to know what to do once you have approached the woman. I don't know about other guys, but those two aspects are huge problems for me, still are. How do you initiate a conversation and how do you keep the conversation going? That is also something where those rehearsed silly and/or lame lines have some value because it's better to use them than not being able to say anything. Striking out swinging, even if you lose balance land on your butt is better than to strike out looking. Where this fails, is that if he doesn't have any personality and a decent sense of humour, nothing will help him. Add in fake "social proof" stories and he's going to crash and burn, since some women aren't interested in who and how many he bagged previously. True enough, but again within the context of a possible ONS, the fake social proof probably doesn't hurt in most cases. I never had a ONS, but personality doesn't seem to be a very important criterion for both men and women when picking a partner just to scratch an itch. I will say that Mystery's correct about the protection component. For me, don't know about other women, ability and desire to protect is BIG, something I never realized until the past couple of years, not that I want him to do it all the time, like a bantam rooster. A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do I think the negging, lines, and "stories"(which are really lies) are ridiculous. However what I find offensive is this: A man approaches a woman and if she does not perform as he would like she is automatically a <b!tch - snob - or whatever somewhat degrading expletive you'd like to insert here> instead of a person who simply isn't interested. I see the same sort of comments here on LS by the guys who advocate PUA tactics. I think that it can be a very convinient way for guys like him to do both. To have an excuse to call women names as well as protecting his self-esteem. If the guy fails, then his self-esteem suffers. There is no reason for that, but it happens. If he failed because the woman wasn't worth it anyway, it's not his fault. Perhaps this can even have a positive effect, turning the rejection into something positive that way. As long as the name calling stays in the guys head and he doesn't actually say it, I don't think it does much harm. It can be just a very extreme way of saying "Hey, it's their loss, not yours" if people reject you. And -- a serious question for all of the guys here -- Do any of you watch this video and think he looks cool and tells stories in a really intriguing way? Because to me, as a woman, he sounds like a complete DOUCHE no matter what part you're listening to. I don't think he is. But I have often wondered what on earth possessed some women to be with their no-good bf. Don't forget who his audience is. Don't forget who is open mouthed waiting to be spoon fed this info. These aren't the Don Juans who are "10s" themselves. These aren't the guys who have a whole lot going for them in action, experience, confidence, talent, or whatever else. They have never been the guy girls run after. Yet a "7 or an 8" is just to practice on. That is someone not "worth it". Yeah, it sounds like he is helping them find relationships. :rolleyes: Of course he is all about helping these guys find love and marriage. :rolleyes: Again, the idea they teach is that women have the power and the man must grow some balls and take it back. A stupid idea and not a true depiction of life. However, the woman as a prize, someone who is better than him exists in some men. The men you are talking about will not get many dates. How can they not be nervous about screwing up the rare date they get? If your IQ is cut in half on a date because you are scared,nervous, unexperienced and don't know what to do, you will not do well. The solution is to help them to keep calm, to not care so much. So, the idea to practise is not wrong as that is the only thing that might get them there. What makes it wrong is to tell them that they should despise the women they practice on. If they are very nice, decent guys then someone should be helping them to have confidence in THAT. Fake it 'til you make it being a stronger more confident version of yourself. Don't make up stories that never happened, lie, and try to be somebody else entirely. If you do - you just went from very nice, decent guy (which were good characteristics to build upon) to a sleazy tool who is even more in fear of being himself since who he IS apparently is unacceptable. If a guy has no confidence in regards to women, how is he supposed to get that confidence if he encounters rejection after rejection? Getting laid does count as a success and will build confidence. Especially if the guys are young. And women are to blame there too. I have seen women on LS and IRL do it. As soon as the perceived loser appears, a common and easy insult is to imply that he can't get laid and shouldn't be taken seriously.
Untouchable_Fire Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Really? That's a shame!! I think perhaps it would be helpful to define a healthy self esteem, we women are all kind of crazy in our own way I WILL give you that. But to truly have an unhealthy self esteem you must engage in self destructive patterns, you must feel unworthy of love. Are there really THAT many women in your area who are like this? Thanks! Your right, we are working off different definitions. I think many of the women where I live have some type of self esteem issue. It's very, very common. However, most of them do not actively engage in self destructive behavior. I think that even women you perceive as having healthy self esteem, I would think of as insecure. I am a guy... I can almost smell insecurity. Dude, don't be too complimentary... Now that you have her attention, throw her a quick neg!!!! I didn't even know BH was female. However, I do plan to use that as my next GamerTag! The Butcher's Hook. I've been using MileyCyrus, because I thought it was funny when other gamers see, "Your Head Has Been Blown Off by MileyCyrus". Before that I used Gangsta Elmo. I thought that was funny too.
donnamaybe Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Getting laid does count as a success and will build confidence. And then the guy will talk about the gal with his friends later and call her a slut for having sex with him.
Phateless Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 And then the guy will talk about the gal with his friends later and call her a slut for having sex with him. Just like girls always brag about how much the guy spent on dinner? You need to stop generalizing so much. This is not always the case.
Untouchable_Fire Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 LOL! I don't have to look far where I'm from to find plenty of women who got it and know it. They don't take no s*** from anyone and it's damn sexy. Where do you live? And then the guy will talk about the gal with his friends later and call her a slut for having sex with him. Your way behind the times. Now days he is more likely to feel used and she is more likely to brag to all of her friends.
donnamaybe Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Just like girls always brag about how much the guy spent on dinner? You need to stop generalizing so much. This is not always the case. Of course it isn't ALWAYS the case, but in the case of MOST of the types of guys who are trying to work PUA tactics I'm certain it is. In fact, if I remember correctly, Stock is one guy who is very adamant that a gal have an almost non-existent sex life prior to meeting him. Forgive me if I've got the wrong member, Stock, but wasn't that you? Not that you are the type to do that, because if I also remember correctly, you don't sleep around either.
donnamaybe Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Your way behind the times. Now days he is more likely to feel used and she is more likely to brag to all of her friends. Oh, really? Go back and read the threads about past sex partner numbers.
Phateless Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Of course it isn't ALWAYS the case, but in the case of MOST of the types of guys who are trying to work PUA tactics I'm certain it is. In fact, if I remember correctly, Stock is one guy who is very adamant that a gal have an almost non-existent sex life prior to meeting him. Forgive me if I've got the wrong member, Stock, but wasn't that you? Not that you are the type to do that, because if I also remember correctly, you don't sleep around either. Those same girls will be bitchy to the nice genuine guy (who she SAYS she wants to meet) when he asks if he can buy her a drink and be all over the bad boy cocky jerk. That's the only reason pua stuff exists.
Surfer Dude Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 People here misunderstand things. Negs aren't random insults made to offend women. Club game (I don't know how many of you go to clubs) is extremely different from other male-female interactions and therefore requires different approach. I'd never neg a woman who is nice to me (that's where newbies fail, they insult women for no reason), but I'd rip on her a bit if she was putting on a bitch act and giving me a hard time. Mystery's explanation of why neg hits are required: "A 10 is there surrounded by friends. She has put on this BITCH act. Is she REALLY a bitch? Unlikely. All my girlfriends were wonderful human beings - beautiful people have it easier because they are beautiful and often times have better upbringings because of it. BUT - they need to have a standard with which to uphold when all these NOBODY guys approach her. So her values are very honed and understood. When a man walks up and says, "can I buy you a beer?" she WILL be annoyed by this. While the guy thinks he's doing something nice for her, she gets this ALL the time. She is desensitised to this. You are the 8th guy TODAY! So she is very good at brushing all these guys off. ****, she HAS to be... she isn't going to sleep with ALL of them! So she may say NO or act annoyed and then the guy thinks she's a bitch and walks off pissed and feeling like a failure. And that seems to work. Sometimes when the girl is particularly in a feeling of control (like in a club where she is PREPARED for the barrage of men - it IS after all something that occurs so often that when it is GONE she MISSES it) she will accept the beer and then flake the guy off. Hey, the guys are stupid enough to buy her one, she might as well take it. When they take a beer from you, the girl is saying to you, "I don't know you and I don't care about you. You are just another one of those typical guys and since I don't respect you, Ill take the beer from you before I snub you."These little remarks are designed to lower their bitch shield and to let them know they can't intimidate you. I don't know how many ladies here have been to clubs, but you often have these perfect 10s who get hit on 20 times a night, so they put on the bitch act. They are great women usually, but they have to fend off these losers. So if I make a seemingly rude remark, it shows I'm not intimidated by her and that I think she isn't anything special. She will start thinking "wow, this guy isn't supplicating... he actually has value". Seriously, it's just basic psychology and it works. If a woman is compliant, accepts me and doesn't give me sh*t for approaching her, I have no need whatsoever to neg her, I will immediately get to talking, creating connection etc. Again, negs aren't even designed for anything other than club game and model type girls with bitch shields. Here's the whole article: http://www.fastseduction.com/guide/03_Approaching/05_Neg_Hits/neghits.shtml
donnamaybe Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Those same girls will be bitchy to the nice genuine guy (who she SAYS she wants to meet) when he asks if he can buy her a drink and be all over the bad boy cocky jerk. That's the only reason pua stuff exists. Oh, so are you saying the PUA guys are focusing solely on the bitches to sort of "put them in their place?"
Phateless Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Oh, so are you saying the PUA guys are focusing solely on the bitches to sort of "put them in their place?" No. I'm saying they've had to learn how to get their foot in the door because nice and straight forward gets them rejected or made fun of 9 times out of 10. Most guys would VASTLY prefer walking up to a girl without fear and saying, "Hi. I think you're pretty. Can I buy you a drink and talk to you?" Unfortunately that doesn't usually work, so men resort to alternate tactics.
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