Island Girl Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 The negging seems to be the fence that has all the anti PUA peeps up in arms. I think the negging, lines, and "stories"(which are really lies) are ridiculous. However what I find offensive is this: They take awkward, but otherwise sweet guys and tell them it doesn't matter if a girl isn't into him, she is just a stuck up 3!tch wasting his time; on to the next bird. A man approaches a woman and if she does not perform as he would like she is automatically a <b!tch - snob - or whatever somewhat degrading expletive you'd like to insert here> instead of a person who simply isn't interested. I see the same sort of comments here on LS by the guys who advocate PUA tactics. And this is NOT something that "swings both ways". I have yet to see women being told that if a guy isn't interested when she initially meets him - he is automatically a jackass, narcissist, etc. He is simply a guy who isn't interested and women are told to move on because there will be another one who will be. PUAs are advised to lie about who they are: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhZF6rAw2Y8&feature=related (and Mystery isn't the only one who does this) And -- a serious question for all of the guys here -- Do any of you watch this video and think he looks cool and tells stories in a really intriguing way? Because to me, as a woman, he sounds like a complete DOUCHE no matter what part you're listening to. When he talks about even doing "guy talk" he is clearly NOT a "Man's Man". I would never buy that he was hanging out with the guys throwing the ball around or drinking some beers watching a game. In this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBqs2Q2TuWk&NR=1 in particular at 3:25 Extra Effort "they'll get their game up to speed on 7s and 8s and then when a 10 comes along they're like, 'okay I really got to pull out the guns on this girl' right? And so they'll be like, 'okay, there's this new piece that I've recently learned that would be f**king perfect for this girl'. No. If you're trying something new do it on a set that doesn't matter. Okay? When a 10 comes along just stick to your material man just stick to the material that yougot up to speed. About 80 to 90 percent of my typical of a typical set will be tried and true material and I'll have like 10 percent, 10 to 20 percent sometimes will be new material I'm throwing in or I'm just winging it to see if something new will come out of it. On a 10, 100% is stock - is in the can rather and I'm not going to test new material on a girl who is worth it for me." Don't forget who his audience is. Don't forget who is open mouthed waiting to be spoon fed this info. These aren't the Don Juans who are "10s" themselves. These aren't the guys who have a whole lot going for them in action, experience, confidence, talent, or whatever else. They have never been the guy girls run after. Yet a "7 or an 8" is just to practice on. That is someone not "worth it". Yeah, it sounds like he is helping them find relationships. :rolleyes: Of course he is all about helping these guys find love and marriage. :rolleyes: THIS is more like it ---> :lmao::lmao::lmao: If a woman is not interested in your act, lies, or whatever you want to call it then she simply isn't interested. Don't be Mr Bitter and chalk it up to some personality flaw SHE has.
donnamaybe Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Yup, Island Girl, that sure doesn't sound like some poor guy who just needs help forming relationships would be listening to that drivel. More like some sneaky POS who just wants to bang the next girl and toss her aside.
Thaddeus Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I could see how it would work if say, I was someone who must attain the favor of every guy I speak with. A guy not treating me like the cat's meow isn't a huge deal to me. I have some theories why. Mostly I've grown up and can find my own value without checking it with every male I come in contact with. So this "neg" thing hinges on finding other insecure people; women who can't feel assured of themselves unless every guy in the room is panting for them? At most, women who can't deal with a guy who thinks something negative towards them? Isn't that seeking out weakness so one can feel more powerful? Is this a good thing to instill in people? I understand what you're saying, sally4sara, but I think you may be proceeding from a false assumption. The "standard method" (if there ever was a thing) to picking up a woman used to work something like this: Make eye contactSmile a lotGet her to talk about herselfShower her with complimentsHope for the best. So goes the established pattern. Now, PUAs tend to use a similar approach with only a slightly different angle. Instead of inundating their target with compliments, they'll use the occasional "neg" to keep things slightly off balance. This is often referred to as "the edge" that women seem to want in a man, a hint of the "bad boy" that so many women are attracted to. The PUA simply won't kowtow to a woman's vanity. Put it this way: Which man are you more likely to remember? The dozen or so that come up to you and tell you how beautiful you are and feed your ego, or the one with that proverbial "edge" that makes it clear that he's his own man? So much of what women say they want in a man can be put down to one word: Confidence. We see that over and over and over again. That's what a gentle "neg" does - it shows that the man is confident and completely unafraid of losing the attention from the woman he's "negging." Suddenly she's intrigued. "Hey, he's not the same as all those guys who put me on a pedestal. He's different. He's confident. I like that." Again, I have to re-iterate here that I don't necessarily think it's a great idea, at least not for me personally, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't work for some men and on some women. Doesn't make the women weak or anything, it's just a technique that has met with some success.
grogster Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Island Girl, thanks for sharing these videos. I took a glimpse and I cannot f*cking believe all that crap. I can't wait to get off work and watch this stuff at home. Utterly fascinating.
burning 4 revenge Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I understand what you're saying, sally4sara, but I think you may be proceeding from a false assumption. The "standard method" (if there ever was a thing) to picking up a woman used to work something like this: Make eye contactSmile a lotGet her to talk about herselfShower her with complimentsHope for the best.So goes the established pattern. Now, PUAs tend to use a similar approach with only a slightly different angle. Instead of inundating their target with compliments, they'll use the occasional "neg" to keep things slightly off balance. This is often referred to as "the edge" that women seem to want in a man, a hint of the "bad boy" that so many women are attracted to. The PUA simply won't kowtow to a woman's vanity. Put it this way: Which man are you more likely to remember? The dozen or so that come up to you and tell you how beautiful you are and feed your ego, or the one with that proverbial "edge" that makes it clear that he's his own man? So much of what women say they want in a man can be put down to one word: Confidence. We see that over and over and over again. That's what a gentle "neg" does - it shows that the man is confident and completely unafraid of losing the attention from the woman he's "negging." Suddenly she's intrigued. "Hey, he's not the same as all those guys who put me on a pedestal. He's different. He's confident. I like that." Again, I have to re-iterate here that I don't necessarily think it's a great idea, at least not for me personally, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't work for some men and on some women. Doesn't make the women weak or anything, it's just a technique that has met with some success.Yeah but if you bother to say a negative comment in the first place you must be really interested I mean its the classic old reverse psychology Taramere was talking about in that reflection from childhood If youre not interested in someone then you dont want to inflict pain on them or make them uncomfortable...any boob knows that
Trialbyfire Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I watched more of Mystery's clips on youtube, since Stock and Phateless feel so strongly "for" this stuff. I can see some of the value of it, in that it teaches men not to be afraid to approach women which they never should be, regardless of what level of "ten"-ness, they view her as. If they've got personality, approaching with humour will get her attention. Where this fails, is that if he doesn't have any personality and a decent sense of humour, nothing will help him. Add in fake "social proof" stories and he's going to crash and burn, since some women aren't interested in who and how many he bagged previously. I will say that Mystery's correct about the protection component. For me, don't know about other women, ability and desire to protect is BIG, something I never realized until the past couple of years, not that I want him to do it all the time, like a bantam rooster.
Island Girl Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I can see some of the value of it, in that it teaches men not to be afraid to approach women which they never should be, regardless of what level of "ten"-ness, they view her as. If they've got personality, approaching with humour will get her attention. I can see what you're saying TBF but I still fail to see how consistently devaluing women and telling these guys to lie about everything and not be themselves AT ALL truly helps them. Any confidence they obtain would be confidence in their facade not in who they really are. And there can be no real connection with a woman because who she thinks he is will not be the reality of who she's getting. I will say that Mystery's correct about the protection component. For me, don't know about other women, ability and desire to protect is BIG, something I never realized until the past couple of years, not that I want him to do it all the time, like a bantam rooster. Will you post the link to this vid? I'd like to see what you're talking about here. Thanks!
Untouchable_Fire Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 / A man approaches a woman and if she does not perform as he would like she is automatically a <b!tch - snob - or whatever somewhat degrading expletive you'd like to insert here> instead of a person who simply isn't interested. And this is NOT something that "swings both ways". I have yet to see women being told that if a guy isn't interested when she initially meets him - he is automatically a jackass, narcissist, etc. He is simply a guy who isn't interested and women are told to move on because there will be another one who will be. I work in sales... and most of the guys I work around use the same tactic to keep rejection from being personal. If you start to think there is something wrong with YOU, then it affects your next attempt. If you think there was something wrong with THEM... then it doesn't throw you off. I view it as a beginners sales tactic. Also, women use that tactic as well... it's just in a dating sense... they rarely have to put themselves out there in the same way. In terms of PUA... those guys are just douchebags, the only people I have less respect for are the women who fall for them. The only thing that I think they do well is give young guys who have had very poor experiences with women... Confidence.
sally4sara Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I understand what you're saying, sally4sara, but I think you may be proceeding from a false assumption. The "standard method" (if there ever was a thing) to picking up a woman used to work something like this: Make eye contactSmile a lotGet her to talk about herselfShower her with complimentsHope for the best. So goes the established pattern. Now, PUAs tend to use a similar approach with only a slightly different angle. Instead of inundating their target with compliments, they'll use the occasional "neg" to keep things slightly off balance. This is often referred to as "the edge" that women seem to want in a man, a hint of the "bad boy" that so many women are attracted to. The PUA simply won't kowtow to a woman's vanity. Put it this way: Which man are you more likely to remember? The dozen or so that come up to you and tell you how beautiful you are and feed your ego, or the one with that proverbial "edge" that makes it clear that he's his own man? So much of what women say they want in a man can be put down to one word: Confidence. We see that over and over and over again. That's what a gentle "neg" does - it shows that the man is confident and completely unafraid of losing the attention from the woman he's "negging." Suddenly she's intrigued. "Hey, he's not the same as all those guys who put me on a pedestal. He's different. He's confident. I like that." Again, I have to re-iterate here that I don't necessarily think it's a great idea, at least not for me personally, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't work for some men and on some women. Doesn't make the women weak or anything, it's just a technique that has met with some success. That is what I'm pointing out. The "bad boy" quickly looses his value after a woman discovers HER value. After that, he is just a ridiculous headache. And vanity is a quality one has mostly due to not feeling assured of their overall appeal. They are vain due to an overwhelming concern with their appearance. Once you know you're decent looking, you kinda get over yourself. The "bad boy" is like looking for a new issue to have in your life. I know the attempt is to come off coy and interesting, some new feeling from some new kind of guy to spark her interest. I just don't see this as a good way to go at it. Negging is much more like you just found a high school kid in an adult social setting rather than a peer. Negging does not make him seem confident; rather a pot stirrer there to cause unrest. People don't gravitate to other people who cause them unrest for very long. Unless one likes coming off the same as an aggravating new co-worker or a hang nail. Confident people don't go around trying to cause weird irriations in others. I think perhaps some other these theories hold merit and were not intended origionally to hurt others. It has devolved to this in most of the "students" I've dealt with however. Now they're just ruined guys who use to at least seem sweet and the women who can tolerate them are as insecure as they are; more so after knowing them. I'm so glad I'm off the market when I think of the manufactured drama these guys are told to create!
Trialbyfire Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I can see what you're saying TBF but I still fail to see how consistently devaluing women and telling these guys to lie about everything and not be themselves AT ALL truly helps them. Any confidence they obtain would be confidence in their facade not in who they really are. And there can be no real connection with a woman because who she thinks he is will not be the reality of who she's getting.Don't get me wrong. I haven't changed my mind about the "negging" and devaluing portions. Approach with balance and positive energy. Will you post the link to this vid? I'd like to see what you're talking about here. Thanks!It's not so much Mystery's entire theory about "survival", which Taramere has already posted clips within this thread, but that I'm acknowledging that one of the key attractions, at least with myself and perhaps other women, is the man's ability and more importantly desire, to protect.
espec10001 Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 What kind of retard listens to what some guy who you don't know selling this crap is saying? Be your own man and f*** stupid s*** like this. The world doesn't need any more of this pick up artist garbage. It's a poor product that they are selling and I feel bad for the guys who fall for it. If a girl doesn't like you when you are being YOURSELF and not what some pre-packaged salesman is telling you to be then you are wasting your time and hers. Would you think any differently of him if he were just using a sleight of hand and slipped roofies into these girls drinks without anyone seeing him?
donnamaybe Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 What kind of retard listens to what some guy who you don't know selling this crap is saying? Be your own man and f*** stupid s*** like this. The world doesn't need any more of this pick up artist garbage. It's a poor product that they are selling and I feel bad for the guys who fall for it. If a girl doesn't like you when you are being YOURSELF and not what some pre-packaged salesman is telling you to be then you are wasting your time and hers. Would you think any differently of him if he were just using a sleight of hand and slipped roofies into these girls drinks without anyone seeing him? I like you - A LOT!
Thaddeus Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 That is what I'm pointing out. The "bad boy" quickly looses his value after a woman discovers HER value. EXACTLY!! Remember, most PUAs aren't interested in anything long-term, they're there for the quick "hit." And being the "bad boy," whether it's real or it's a show, provides that edge that so many women say they're looking for.I know the attempt is to come off coy and interesting, some new feeling from some new kind of guy to spark her interest. I just don't see this as a good way to go at it.I don't disagree with you at all here, all I'm saying is that it has a tendency in many situations to work. And one needn't be suffering from low self-esteem or anything of the sort for it to work, it works because it's different than the standard operating procedure. One last thing, then I'm going to bow out of this thread. Mystery, Strauss, et. al. have been using sound psychological principles to create a persona and a community around picking up women. Like it or not, these principles often work, even for those women who are confident, self-assured and can normally see right through these types of games. What they have done is to re-jig the power situation when a man approaches a woman. For millennia, the woman has always had the power to deny or accept a man's approach. The PUA community has turned that power balance on it's head by making the man the object to be chased. And nobody likes to give up their power without a fight, which is why so many women call the whole PUA community a population of low-lifes, brainless numbskulls, manipulating a$$hats and other such insults. It's not the men that are actually a threat, it's what they represent: A power shift from the woman to the man. And on that note, I'm outta this thread. (Gawd... it's 21 pages!)
Sam Spade Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I understand what you're saying, sally4sara, but I think you may be proceeding from a false assumption. The "standard method" (if there ever was a thing) to picking up a woman used to work something like this: Make eye contactSmile a lotGet her to talk about herselfShower her with complimentsHope for the best.So goes the established pattern. Now, PUAs tend to use a similar approach with only a slightly different angle. Instead of inundating their target with compliments, they'll use the occasional "neg" to keep things slightly off balance. This is often referred to as "the edge" that women seem to want in a man, a hint of the "bad boy" that so many women are attracted to. The PUA simply won't kowtow to a woman's vanity. Put it this way: Which man are you more likely to remember? The dozen or so that come up to you and tell you how beautiful you are and feed your ego, or the one with that proverbial "edge" that makes it clear that he's his own man? So much of what women say they want in a man can be put down to one word: Confidence. We see that over and over and over again. That's what a gentle "neg" does - it shows that the man is confident and completely unafraid of losing the attention from the woman he's "negging." Suddenly she's intrigued. "Hey, he's not the same as all those guys who put me on a pedestal. He's different. He's confident. I like that." Again, I have to re-iterate here that I don't necessarily think it's a great idea, at least not for me personally, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't work for some men and on some women. Doesn't make the women weak or anything, it's just a technique that has met with some success. This is quite decent common sense, but it is easily forgotten, probably because it's lost somewhere underneath the thick layer of ridiculous marketing techniques of all this PUA crap. While I agree that the whole PUA circus is just amazingly stupid, there are basic principles of social interactions that do matter, and I'm not talking just about man-woman. So, just as speaking with a british accent a gentleman doesn't make, using cocky lines a seducer doesn't make. But, this doesn't mean that gentlement and seducer don't do something right, and all men can improve their social skills.
Trialbyfire Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Thaddeus, no gender is the "prize". What's the "prize" is strong chemistry based connection between genders. If it's an ONS, it will solely be physical chemistry. If it's relationship based, it's got to have more. It's not a power battle between genders. It's love/lust as we make it...
sally4sara Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Thaddeus, no gender is the "prize". What's the "prize" is strong chemistry based connection between genders. If it's an ONS, it will solely be physical chemistry. If it's relationship based, it's got to have more. It's not a power battle between genders. It's love/lust as we make it... Yup, this approach has revenge written all over it and nothing nice can come from that foundation. All the pretend good intentions won't make up for this, PUA causes more harm than it helps anyone and for that reason, doesn't qualify as "self-improvement".
Untouchable_Fire Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Yup, this approach has revenge written all over it and nothing nice can come from that foundation. All the pretend good intentions won't make up for this, PUA causes more harm than it helps anyone and for that reason, doesn't qualify as "self-improvement". I'm sorry but only a total loser tries to take revenge on someone who has never wronged them. You can't blame an entire gender for how 12 girls treated you in highschool. That approach just seems so.... spineless.
Author Taramere Posted July 10, 2009 Author Posted July 10, 2009 And -- a serious question for all of the guys here -- Do any of you watch this video and think he looks cool and tells stories in a really intriguing way? Because to me, as a woman, he sounds like a complete DOUCHE no matter what part you're listening to. When he talks about even doing "guy talk" he is clearly NOT a "Man's Man". I would never buy that he was hanging out with the guys throwing the ball around or drinking some beers watching a game. No - he definitely doesn't look like the man's man type. I watched one of your clips for a bit, reduced the screen, then the next time I looked he had a pair of heavy rimmed glasses on and was whining "do you know why you SUCK??? Because you're 'Miss Popularity' surrounded by your friends, and I can't get over to speak to you. That's why YOU SUCK!'" Who wouldn't cringe for a guy who came up and tried to be all cutesy like that? It's just horrid. On what planet is a camp, emo-ish "Ewww, look at you Miss Popularity" a turn on? You might want to go shopping with the guy, or have a girly night in painting eachothers fingernails and toenails....but have sex with him? Don't forget who his audience is. Don't forget who is open mouthed waiting to be spoon fed this info. These aren't the Don Juans who are "10s" themselves. The other week I was at a bbq following an outdoor activity thing I'd been on. One of the instructors was most definitely a 10 of a guy. Standing about 6 ft 4" with one of those beautiful faces that meant he had to be very careful in the showers when he was at school. Various women at the BBQ were suddenly discovering that it was such a hot day that they just had to change into bikinis. So he was surrounded by cleavages, and it was the most striking display of women blatantly and aggressively competing with eachother for a guy's attention that I've seen in ages. So you can guess, a couple of the guys there had their noses out of joint - though they were being good-natured enough about the whole thing. I was talking to two of them, and they were commenting on the level of interest this guy was getting from women. This got us onto the topic of PUA, and we were having a convo not unlike this one. The Adonis clearly overheard some of it, and next thing he's over wanting to join in - wide-eyed with interest for such a subject. I mention The Game, and am telling him about all these strategies. "What's negging exactly? Do a neg" "Okay, I'll try - but I'm worried you might be too blond to get it" etc etc. He laughed. Hey! Maybe it does work after all. Anyway, I told him that he really didn't strike me as the kind of guy who would be needing to attend any courses or read any books about picking women up. There was no false modesty from him. He agreed that he gets pursued by women a lot....but his issue was that sometimes he would like to be the pursuer, and he feels that women never give him an opportunity to pursue. He doesn't get to choose. He gets chosen. It was kind of interesting to hear the perspective of someone like that. A guy who's probably spent a lot of his life fending off attentions from the more aggressive women in the group - and probably a lot of attention from gay men too. So in that sense, it might not always simply be about picking women up. For some men it may be about getting more of a sense of power in interpersonal communications...rather than simply responding pretty passively to very blatantly demonstrated sexual interest from other people.
Untouchable_Fire Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I can see what you're saying TBF but I still fail to see how consistently devaluing women and telling these guys to lie about everything and not be themselves AT ALL truly helps them. Any confidence they obtain would be confidence in their facade not in who they really are. And there can be no real connection with a woman because who she thinks he is will not be the reality of who she's getting. Here is how I see it. The devaluing part is a trick for noobs to help make sure rejection doesn't wreck confidence. Most people NEED to use it early on. When we provide a first impression, we all put on a facade of some kind. This whole PUA thing just gives some of these young guys the confidence to get their foot in the door. A good chunk of them are very nice, decent guys who just never get the opportunity. Here is my issue with the whole PUA culture. I HATE the fact that they teach these guys to only think in terms of sex. It's a load of horsecrap, and I think it hurts them at the end of the day.
Island Girl Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 What they have done is to re-jig the power situation when a man approaches a woman. For millennia, the woman has always had the power to deny or accept a man's approach. The PUA community has turned that power balance on it's head by making the man the object to be chased. Sorry but there's no "power re-jig" going on. The person who makes the decision is still in the position of power. It's true for millennia women have decided whether or not to accept a man's advances. In the PUA scenario the woman still has the power to participate in "the game" or not. Like it or not the man is still attempting to get the girl to decide and choose him. And nobody likes to give up their power without a fight, which is why so many women call the whole PUA community a population of low-lifes, brainless numbskulls, manipulating a$$hats and other such insults. Not true. These men were - and I have to be not so nice here - bottom of the barrel guys in the first place. These were not the handsome beat-girls-off-with-a-stick guys nor will they ever be. They are being taught a few tricks and ways to deceive women into making a women THINK they are something they aren't for sex. The fact that they WANT to figure out how to lie, manipulate, fabricate, and pretend to be something they are not to just get sex makes them "a$$hats". Those that aren't still go out there and try to be themselves but a more confident self-loving version of that and look for a woman who appreciates him for just who he is. Because he is looking for a woman that he can have a relationship with. It's not the men that are actually a threat, it's what they represent: A power shift from the woman to the man. PUAs are a threat? To who? I am not threatened by them in the least. I don't know a woman who is or would be. :lmao:
Island Girl Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 When we provide a first impression, we all put on a facade of some kind. This whole PUA thing just gives some of these young guys the confidence to get their foot in the door. A good chunk of them are very nice, decent guys who just never get the opportunity. If they are very nice, decent guys then someone should be helping them to have confidence in THAT. Fake it 'til you make it being a stronger more confident version of yourself. Don't make up stories that never happened, lie, and try to be somebody else entirely. If you do - you just went from very nice, decent guy (which were good characteristics to build upon) to a sleazy tool who is even more in fear of being himself since who he IS apparently is unacceptable. Here is my issue with the whole PUA culture. I HATE the fact that they teach these guys to only think in terms of sex. It's a load of horsecrap, and I think it hurts them at the end of the day. Exactly. And more than likely why Mystery can't form a lasting meaningful relationship and suffers from a variety of mental maladies.
Island Girl Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Island Girl, thanks for sharing these videos. I took a glimpse and I cannot f*cking believe all that crap. You're welcome. And now you can plainly see why there are a lot of women here stating this is not at all attractive.
Untouchable_Fire Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 If they are very nice, decent guys then someone should be helping them to have confidence in THAT. Fake it 'til you make it being a stronger more confident version of yourself. Don't make up stories that never happened, lie, and try to be somebody else entirely. If you do - you just went from very nice, decent guy (which were good characteristics to build upon) to a sleazy tool who is even more in fear of being himself since who he IS apparently is unacceptable. This is part of a wider societal issue. I had a good chunk of friends in highschool that just could not get dates. They were really decent guys, I think they just failed in two major areas, lacking confidence, and judging girls too much on physical appearance. I think once those guys get over that... their chances improve. Exactly. And more than likely why Mystery can't form a lasting meaningful relationship and suffers from a variety of mental maladies. That might be kind of a chicken and egg deal. Bottom line is that because Mystery doesn't see much value in women beyond sex... he will never understand what it feels like to be loved.
Phateless Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 You should all read the book and watch the show before making any other assertions on this subject. Most people in this thread are making statements based on assumptions, preconceptions and emotional responses to a tiny sliver of information. How can you judge something so harshly that you know so little about?
Thaddeus Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I ride a motorcycle. Anyone care to make any assumptions about me while you're at it? That makes you cool! I ride too!
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