butcher's hook Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Interesting "Sobbing hysterically, Mystery reveals that his father was both verbally and physically abusive. This, teamed with emotional distance from his mother, he claims, left him love-starved and unfulfilled as a child." Gees, that's a surprise!! (SO NOT):rolleyes: where did you find that quote shadowplay? nice work!
Author Taramere Posted July 9, 2009 Author Posted July 9, 2009 Can everyone see what's happening here? Camp #1 says, "All women who fall for such trickery are victims/suffer from low self-esteem/have something wrong with them." Campt #2 says, "Whether it's The Game or Cosmo or How To Sell Anything To Anybody, these techniques are all based on the same principles. Doesn't make them good or bad, but given the right circumstances, virtually everyone may fall for them." Personally, I'm in Camp #2. I'm just curious to see how many people who self-identify in Camp #1 have actually read Strauss' book. I've read The Game. It was a story rather than a how-to manual, and my impression of it was that although Neil Strauss was grateful to the "Community" for setting him goals that resulted in him learning to be more comfortable around women, he was skeptical of many of the things that the self-proclaimed gurus told him about women. And ultimately he seemed to regard Mystery (the guy who'd initially acted as guru to him) as a sad case. As for the camps....It's not clear to me whether some of these guys who are heavily into their PUA communities are sleeping with women because they're genuinely attracted to them, or if it's primarily because they want to have something to report back to the rest of the community. If it's the latter then yes - the woman's being tricked and betrayed. She's sleeping with a guy in good faith, believing that it's a case of two adults being attracted to eachother and having sex. The reality is that she's sleeping with someone who has the mentality of a minor, and whose behaviour is no better than that of the guy who places a bet with a friend that he can get a particular woman into bed. Regardless of whether it's just a one night stand and the guy doesn't think he owes the woman any kind of loyalty or respect, I believe that's a betrayal of trust. She thinks she's slept with or become involved with a decent guy who likes her, and meantime he's reporting back to a bunch of guys who he doesn't even care about (and who don't care about him) about the "plate" he's spinning. I realise that men have a need to bond with other men, and to impress them - but there's a cheapness and a betrayal of trust in that kind of behaviour that I find sleazy, embarrassing and impossible to respect. I think that's an element of the PUA thing that undeniably exists, and that undermines the positive "this is a great thing for women as well as men" image some people try to portray of it.
sally4sara Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Then walk away. If you buy from them that's their fault? They must be really really good salespeople OR you must be incredibly weak minded. By putting all the responsibility on the guy you are DISEMPOWERING YOURSELF. You can't have it both ways. Where did I say I want it *oth ways? You seem to feel I don't like you rather than the methods you aspire to. I don't know you so....we're cool okay? You can stop feeling insulted anytime. And I do walk away when anyone doesn't take a "thanks, no thanks" at face value. With PUA this is done while they hurl insults in your wake.
Thaddeus Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 I've read The Game. It was a story rather than a how-to manual, and my impression of it was that although Neil Strauss was grateful to the "Community" for setting him goals that resulted in him learning to be more comfortable around women, he was skeptical of many of the things that the self-proclaimed gurus told him about women. And ultimately he seemed to regard Mystery (the guy who'd initially acted as guru to him) as a sad case. Yes, that's the sense that I got from it as well. I think I mentioned before that I saw it more as a cautionary tale rather than some sort of set of instructions. For the record, the last I heard Strauss was engaged to an extraordinarily beautiful woman and he had committed publicly to be "the world's best boyfriend." I saw him on some talk show but cannot for the life of me remember which one it was. If I can find a source or even a Youtube clip of him saying that I'll post it.
Phateless Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Where did I say I want it *oth ways? You seem to feel I don't like you rather than the methods you aspire to. I don't know you so....we're cool okay? You can stop feeling insulted anytime. And I do walk away when anyone doesn't take a "thanks, no thanks" at face value. With PUA this is done while they hurl insults in your wake. That's exactly it. You're assuming way too much when you have no knowledge whatsoever to base it on and that bothers me, not as a guy, but as a critical thinker. I don't aspire to these methods. I have taken some of the ideas behind the methods into consideration to help me learn to relate to people better, and it's made a difference in many aspects of my life. Nowhere does pua literature advocate "hurling insults." We're cool. *fist bump*
boogieboy Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Nowhere does pua literature advocate "hurling insults." This is true, the "negging" is only meant to tease a little, and is NOT supposed to be an insult when done right. But some guys do it wrong and it comes out as an insult. There is a fine line, and its tough not to cross when youre thinking on your feet. The negging seems to be the fence that has all the anti PUA peeps up in arms.
Viking Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Realizing that EVERYONE has their own personal strengths and having pride in that. NOT wanting to be like everyone else or have stupid gimmicks to stand out either. Being true to who you really are and getting to the point where you embrace yourself regardless of what anyone else thinks. Back to that old saying, "the clothes don't make the man". The PUA stuff does work - on certain young women who are lacking in their own way for various reasons - and it works for quick sex. These practices won't help you get a relationship and none of these guys even claim that to be true. They prey on those guys who stare at T&A posters on the wall dreaming of having sex with those girls - who watch porn and wish they were that guy having sex with those girls - who watched the athletes in high school have girlfriends and thought "he is probably having sex with her". These aren't the guys who even think a bit further about happiness or a fulfilling relationship. They have never even had real conversations with women. They choke and stutter when facing that possibility. Sex with lots of girls they think are hot. That the entire spectrum of the thought process. Out of curiosity, have you read the book? The character "Sweater" is in it to find a good wife. Not exactly what you are claiming. Also, stop acting like you're immune to a guy's advances. Its natural to accept a guy's advances if he's confident and knows what he's doing. You're not a lie detecting machine. You seem to be on a high horse about this.
Author Taramere Posted July 10, 2009 Author Posted July 10, 2009 This is true, the "negging" is only meant to tease a little, and is NOT supposed to be an insult when done right. But some guys do it wrong and it comes out as an insult. There is a fine line, and its tough not to cross when youre thinking on your feet. The negging seems to be the fence that has all the anti PUA peeps up in arms. Most people like a bit of banter, so long as it appeals to their specific sense of humour. But yes there's a line, and I don't actually think it's all that tough not to cross it. If it's just a case of someone with good intentions coming out with an insensitive comment, I think people will generally be forgiving and recognise it as bit of a social blunder rather than an attempt to wound. It's probably a case of a man knowing himself and being honest with himself about his mood and his motives. If he doesn't have the self awareness to recognise when he's feeling angry or hostile towards women, and enough of the adult man about him to take responsibility for his feelings instead of venting them in spiked negs that are "just a joke - Jesus, lighten up", then how can any woman take seriously his claims to have some extra special insight into the female psyche?
Island Girl Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Out of curiosity, have you read the book? The character "Sweater" is in it to find a good wife. Not exactly what you are claiming. Also, stop acting like you're immune to a guy's advances. Its natural to accept a guy's advances if he's confident and knows what he's doing. You're not a lie detecting machine. You seem to be on a high horse about this. A man looking for a lifetime companion would be best served to boost his self confidence and approach women with his own personality whether quirky or eccentric, etc. Than to use tricks and tactics used primarily for getting quick sex. Even if he did get a women into bed there is no indication that the two really have the chemistry or anything in common to build a more lasting relationship on. A woman doesn't have to be a lie detecting machine to see through the PUA stuff. If she has been involved in dating and relationships and is a confident strong woman it just doesn't ring true and won't work. Hence it not working 100% of the time. A confident man who knows what he's doing doesn't need PUA seminars or these kinds of self help books. There are certainly men here who seem to have combined what they have naturally with a bit of the advice given and see it more of a guideline than a rule. Perhaps it has broadened their approach, etc. But what is spelled out and what I have seen about using lines, negs, stories and all of that would not capture my attention in the least. And yes, I would see right through it. Since adulthood I have always been immune to THESE types of advances. You're right about one thing. It is natural to accept someone's advances IF YOU ARE ATTRACTED TO THAT PERSON. I have yet to see one of these guys (including the "masters", graduates, fledgling students, etc.) that I find attractive. To me, they are unattractive for a myriad of reasons beginning with appearance. I can think of one guy I was attracted to who would not have been handsome in any traditional sense and what I was attracted to was his quirkiness and his sincerity. And that was an attraction that developed as I got to know him. He embraced, accepted, and was true to himself. THAT was extremely attractive. These seminars and books are taken literally the majority of the time. Instead they regurgitate this stuff verbatim. Which is sad because these guys would be much better off just doing some general confidence building and self esteem work while being themselves so they can find someone they like that like them. Not just a woman who is willing to have sex with them.
Author Taramere Posted July 10, 2009 Author Posted July 10, 2009 A woman doesn't have to be a lie detecting machine to see through the PUA stuff. If she has been involved in dating and relationships and is a confident strong woman it just doesn't ring true and won't work. Hence it not working 100% of the time. Also some of the guys who get heavily into the PUA thing are going to have real psychological problems. Any kind of philosophy containing the suggestion that "this will give you power over others people" is going to be highly attractive to people who are in a bit of a bad place and feel a bit powerless generally. You can see how a bunch of guys who were all in that bad place might flock together under the guidance of a narcissistic mess like Mystery, boost up eachother's ego defence mechanisms to ludicrous proportions (while continuing to have fragile egos underneath it all) and end up as part of that picture I posted at the start of the thread Mystery would undoubtedly attract attention in a bar because of his appearance. Women might well talk to him for the novelty/curiosity factor. Some might be impressed by the pop psychology and home-spun philosophies he comes out with. Taking away all the ludicrous aspects of him for a moment, I think Mystery has an attractive face. I think other men probably find Mystery pysically attractive, and that that's probably partly why he's found success as a PU guru. If he weren't such a knob (with his goggles, attention seeking clothing and the embarrassing attempts to be hypnotically charismatic) I can envisage making eye contact with him in a bar and responding positively if he came over. If he started showing me magic tricks I'd watch, laugh and give him the response he was looking for. It's socially polite, and it comes more naturally if you find a guy attractive. But the ludicrous way he talks.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0abO4yfxrs&feature=related ....would be a turn off. My sense of the ridiculous would quickly kick in, and I'd think he was a buffoon. If that were the level he were pitching the conversation at, I'd think he was either incapable of assessing other people's intelligence competently, or that he lacked the intellect to pitch his chat at anything above a moron. In some ways it astounds me that someone like Neil Strauss - who is evidently not a moron - could ever have been impressed by Mystery. On the other hand, perhaps what he was impressed by was Mystery's decisiveness in getting out there and at least trying to create situations with women. If nothing else, it does take a bit of gumption to walk into a bar wearing goggles and fuzzy hats and risk making a complete tit of yourself. Perhaps gumption was what Neil Strauss felt he lacked. I can only vaguely remember bits from The Game now, but the impression I got from it was that Neil Strauss used the social situations Mystery's bizarreness helped engineer to practice chatting up and getting flirtatious/sexual with Mystery's kind of women. Then once he (Neil Strauss) had developed confidence from those situations, he moved on to develop situations with the kind of women he was interested in. I'm skeptical that it was ever any kind of a revelation to him that the guys in that PUA community (and the women they got embroiled with) were in a mess, psychologically - and not people he would want to emulate on any level beyond the superficial "getting out there and making things happen with women" one. But a writer has to win the trust of his audience. He's shrewd enough and good enough at writing to reveal vulnerable aspects of himself, and to promote a sense of having genuinely cared about the people he met in that messed up setting. And the PU community would be the main audience for his book, after all.
gypsy_nicky Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I think Mystery has an attractive face. I think other men probably find Mystery pysically attractive, and that that's probably partly why he's found success as a PU guru. if your into the likes of brad dourif
Author Taramere Posted July 10, 2009 Author Posted July 10, 2009 if your into the likes of brad dourif A bit too peelly wally complexioned for my tastes - but I'm an admirer of good bone structure.
jasminetea Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 If I thought a group of PUAs were avoiding me, I think I'd feel quite relieved once I'd got over the initial feeling of once again, not being good enough. The fact that Mystery's real name is Erik Von Markovich would help. Why does he adopt so many female/feminine characteristics? It seems, from the little I know, that he really dislikes women and is either emulating them in a parody or out of jealousy. Apologies if I'm repeating what's already been said, I haven't read the whole thread.
sally4sara Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 This is true, the "negging" is only meant to tease a little, and is NOT supposed to be an insult when done right. But some guys do it wrong and it comes out as an insult. There is a fine line, and its tough not to cross when youre thinking on your feet. The negging seems to be the fence that has all the anti PUA peeps up in arms. I get the whole concept of teasing; I do it too when I flirt. And the way women flirt is where the concept comes from. I wonder if that one came from a guy more concern with being cruel and seeking revenge. He didn't like the emotions women seemed to stir up inside him, so now he employs them as a first strike? He may have felt women are cruel with their flirting because it made him feel a lack of control. It is another underlying issue that is usually where I get really annoyed when dealing with one of these guys. See, they usually start of your average shaky, shy guy who thought of women as these goddess-like unearthly people. They did the whole pedestal bit when they see a woman they like. The first thing they seem to draw from these books, forums, or maybe their instructor is not just a leveling out, but urged to think very low of women when approaching them so they don't seem as intimidating. Perhaps there is no intention to teach them to degrade their target. Perhaps it is just an attempt to make them stop placing every cute girl they see above themselves. But it is clear, some of the students get seriously confused at this stage. The more you don't respond they way they're told you will respond, the more contemptuous I've experienced and witnessed they become. It is maddening! So sorry, but not every girl you approach will be looking for a guy. Maybe they already have a boyfriend and they are just friendly. So they didn't tell you to eff off immediately and you thought you had one hooked. Whatever, I've seen just your random friendly guy turn nasty quick. The quick scramble to try to put her down so she won't see his missed attempt and he can pretend he wasn't rejected once he realizes she wasn't about to give him her number; she was just being chatty with a seemingly chatty guy. This is why I don't think very highly of the methods. They take awkward, but otherwise sweet guys and tell them it doesn't matter if a girl isn't into him, she is just a stuck up 3!tch wasting his time; on to the next bird. Its a sour attitude.
boogieboy Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Most people like a bit of banter, so long as it appeals to their specific sense of humour. But yes there's a line, and I don't actually think it's all that tough not to cross it. If it's just a case of someone with good intentions coming out with an insensitive comment, I think people will generally be forgiving and recognise it as bit of a social blunder rather than an attempt to wound. It's probably a case of a man knowing himself and being honest with himself about his mood and his motives. If he doesn't have the self awareness to recognise when he's feeling angry or hostile towards women, and enough of the adult man about him to take responsibility for his feelings instead of venting them in spiked negs that are "just a joke - Jesus, lighten up", then how can any woman take seriously his claims to have some extra special insight into the female psyche? Its very tough not to cross it, believe me I know. I still havent perfected it yet. (not enough practice) No one I know uses the "negs" to vent anger. No one should be, I dont see why anyone would. But also most of the guys using this stuff dont claim to (or do the research) know the female psyche.
Author Taramere Posted July 10, 2009 Author Posted July 10, 2009 I get the whole concept of teasing; I do it too when I flirt. And the way women flirt is where the concept comes from. I wonder if that one came from a guy more concern with being cruel and seeking revenge. He didn't like the emotions women seemed to stir up inside him, so now he employs them as a first strike? He may have felt women are cruel with their flirting because it made him feel a lack of control. When I was 14 there was a particular boy who had a crush on me. I didn't fancy him back. I felt an odd sense of guilt and unease about his lovelorn behaviour. Then suddenly his behaviour towards me did an about turn. He started getting extremely hostile, and the obvious reason was that he felt humiliated by the unrequited feelings. I felt guilty and to blame - as well as stressed out about the hostility. So I responded in a placating manner, in keeping with that guilt and in the hope that if I kept on being nice to him it would reduce the anger (and, I suppose, the humiliation) that I felt responsible for him feeling. If I'd understood basic psychology better at that age, I'd have realised that when you respond like that you're simply rewarding and encouraging bad behaviour. He just got worse to the point where he'd grab any social situation he could to try to make an idiot of me. My older brother started getting wise to what was going on, and told me "deal with it, or I'll have to" (which obviously he didn't want to do as he was a couple of years older than the guy). He - my brother - told me that the only response I should be giving to this guy's unpleasantness was flat out coldness or bitchiness. Never, ever niceness. That his feelings weren't my problem, and I shouldn't be taking his sh*t. So that was what I did. The coldness and the bitchiness. We ended up pretty much just loathing the sight of eachother, and at no point throughout any of it did I feel any attraction towards him. He was just a negative figure in my life who I tried to steer clear of as much as possible. I don't think that's how some guys see it, though. I think that some believe anger, rage and vitriol (provided it's carefully controlled) will give them extra special powers over other people - most particularly, women. I'm convinced that that, rather than an enjoyment of playful banter, is at the root of the "neg her" "bring her down and make her feel insecure" I've read some men advocate. Not, I should add, the men posting on this thread - as most of them seem to take a "some of it's interesting, but take a pinch of salt" approach to PUA theory.
grogster Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I don't think that's how some guys see it, though. I think that some believe anger, rage and vitriol (provided it's carefully controlled) will give them extra special powers over other people - most particularly, women. I'm convinced that that, rather than an enjoyment of playful banter, is at the root of the "neg her" "bring her down and make her feel insecure" I've read some men advocate. Not, I should add, the men posting on this thread - as most of them seem to take a "some of it's interesting, but take a pinch of salt" approach to PUA theory. Treating women as objects to be coyly maipulated and, if resistant to male charms, abused or "negged", is simply vile. The PUA thing, at bottom, is about male empowerment and female disempowerment in the mating game. It's a sum zero: He gets stronger because she gets weaker. PUA putzes pollute even Eros.
espec10001 Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 While these techniques may work in certain situations, take these guys out of the bar and club scene, and this probably will not work. Imagine these guys dressed like that in a bookstore. Approaching a female reading a book looking like that will not work. Period. This may be effective means for "picking up" girls at a bar or club, but not many other places. It's all about context. Thats why he calls himself "Mystery". Magicians set the stage and control the variables, take away the stage and place variables that the magician has not prepared for, and suddenly the magic doesn't work. Simple really.
Author Taramere Posted July 10, 2009 Author Posted July 10, 2009 Treating women as objects to be coyly maipulated and, if resistant to male charms, abused or "negged", is simply vile. I see it very much as juvenile behaviour from guys who are stuck at an earlier stage of development, or who've regressed to it in a moment of weakness, stress or crisis. And yes....it's potentially abusive, depending on who they're applying such tactics on, and how fit that "target" is to stand up to such tactics. I think well adjusted men would see that, and avoid applying such "strategies" for the sake of their own self respect as much as anything else. But I also think that a lot of the men who seek advice from PU Gurus are probably vulnerable, lonely and dissociated from mainstream society. Motivated to bring others down to the level they feel they're at, rather than motivated to become psychologically healthier, happier people.
burning 4 revenge Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I see it very much as juvenile behaviour from guys who are stuck at an earlier stage of development, or who've regressed to it in a moment of weakness, stress or crisis. And yes....it's potentially abusive, depending on who they're applying such tactics on, and how fit that "target" is to stand up to such tactics. I think well adjusted men would see that, and avoid applying such "strategies" for the sake of their own self respect as much as anything else. But I also think that a lot of the men who seek advice from PU Gurus are probably vulnerable, lonely and dissociated from mainstream society. Motivated to bring others down to the level they feel they're at, rather than motivated to become psychologically healthier, happier people.I dont see the connection between acting juvenile and abusive and following advice from people like that cat in the hat guy
grogster Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I see it very much as juvenile behaviour from guys who are stuck at an earlier stage of development, or who've regressed to it in a moment of weakness, stress or crisis. And yes....it's potentially abusive, depending on who they're applying such tactics on, and how fit that "target" is to stand up to such tactics. I think well adjusted men would see that, and avoid applying such "strategies" for the sake of their own self respect as much as anything else. But I also think that a lot of the men who seek advice from PU Gurus are probably vulnerable, lonely and dissociated from mainstream society. Motivated to bring others down to the level they feel they're at, rather than motivated to become psychologically healthier, happier people. If true, there's a negative selection operating. PUA shils will be most effective with desperate, loser males and these guys would be most likely to use their PU "skills" to abuse, denigrate and humiliate vulnerable, immature woman for that male power surge. PUA crap is misogyny steroids. What a toxic cocktail.
Thaddeus Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I guess it's all in how it's done. "Negging," at least as I see it, isn't an attempt to put anyone down or make them feel insecure. It's simply a technique PUAs have developed to keep from putting women on a pedestal. So many women hear compliments so often that they become immune to them. A gentle "neg" might pique interest because it's different than what they - the women - expect. It often runs counter-intuitive to how some men work, which is why it's used in the PUA community. It's an established truism that people tend to yearn for something that's out of their reach. A gentle "neg" tells the woman that, "You're nice and interesting and all that, but there's something about you that bugs me or I don't like." Suddenly, it's him that is out of her reach for whatever reason. The tables are turned. No longer is she the pursued - she's now the pursuer. It's all about power. Whether it actually works in practice or not depends on the people involved and the force of the "neg." Now, a brief caveat here: I don't think it's a particularly positive thing to do, going around and "negging" attractive women. Soon enough, one will develop a reputation for being a hyper-critical b@st@rd and that won't get a man anywhere. But the fact is, like it or not, it continues to be used in the community because it works. Whether the men have the mental maturity of a 12-year-old or not isn't relevant (and, for the record, I think they probably do, with the possible exception of Strauss himself). What's relevant is what works. And a gentle "neg," whether we happen to agree with it or not, does tend to work.
burning 4 revenge Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Treating women as objects to be coyly maipulated and, if resistant to male charms, abused or "negged", is simply vile. The PUA thing, at bottom, is about male empowerment and female disempowerment in the mating game. It's a sum zero: He gets stronger because she gets weaker. PUA putzes pollute even Eros. Who are these PUA's though? Do they all live in Manhattan? I mean ones over 30 I dont know anyone in my small (and I mean very small) social circle who go out looking to pick up like theyre college kids Well most of them are married of course And then theres the internet which has changed everything so much Ive never even heard of these guys until this thread
grogster Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Who are these PUA's though? Do they all live in Manhattan? I mean ones over 30 I dont know anyone in my small (and I mean very small) social circle who go out looking to pick up like theyre college kids Well most of them are married of course And then theres the internet which has changed everything so much Ive never even heard of these guys until this thread This may just be a media marketing event. Greatly overblown. I honestly don't know. This would make a great Oprah episode, though. If its on the Internet it must be real. Right?
sally4sara Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 But the fact is, like it or not, it continues to be used in the community because it works. Whether the men have the mental maturity of a 12-year-old or not isn't relevant (and, for the record, I think they probably do, with the possible exception of Strauss himself). What's relevant is what works. And a gentle "neg," whether we happen to agree with it or not, does tend to work. I could see how it would work if say, I was someone who must attain the favor of every guy I speak with. A guy not treating me like the cat's meow isn't a huge deal to me. I have some theories why. Mostly I've grown up and can find my own value without checking it with every male I come in contact with. So this "neg" thing hinges on finding other insecure people; women who can't feel assured of themselves unless every guy in the room is panting for them? At most, women who can't deal with a guy who thinks something negative towards them? Isn't that seeking out weakness so one can feel more powerful? Is this a good thing to instill in people?
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