Phateless Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Oh, yeah. I agree. There most definitely ARE women who do that, and they are JUST as wrong! I agree with you. That's NOT what Game teaches men to do. That is a conclusion that everyone on this forum is jumping to without knowing the first thing about it. Honestly, the relationship advice on that forum is far more level-headed, logical and helpful than most of the advice I've received on LS.
Trialbyfire Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Life as a prison biatch can take its toll on people. Especially if big bubba and his friends won't take no for an answer. That was exactly what I meant!
Author Taramere Posted July 9, 2009 Author Posted July 9, 2009 Any woman who says that she was "tricked' by a PUA is diminishing her own power of decision by claiming she had none. Is everyone in this thread REALLY making the assertion that women can't decide for themselves and are powerless against some simple psychology? Do you all really have that little respect for women? No That is in fact what this thread is about. The whole (I love this yank word) douchebaggery surrounding the whole PUA community thing. The notion that there are a select group of gurus in possession of some secret master-key that will open up a world of vaginas. A copy of which they can cut for lesser men....at a price. We sleep with men because we want to. You've said it, I've said it - I'm pretty sure a lot of women on this thread have said it. We're capable of thinking for ourselves and acting for ourselves. We know what we like and we know what we don't like - and the fact that some guru on a message board or in a book might be able to convince other men that he knows what women want does not necessarily mean that he'll be able to convince women that he has what they want. The only thing you can bank on is that what a woman wants varies from women to women....however many message board gurus provide the comforting advice that "one whore is very much like another." It's not the case - hence so much frustration. Even Freud, whose insight into the human mind was probably a fair bit sharper than your average keyboard jockey, couldn't figure out what it was that women wanted. It may well be fun to lecture eachother about women in a seminar room or on a message board....but bear in mind that just because some posturing sage who claims to know all about women has suckered in a group of 18 year old kids on a message board, it doesn't automatically follow that he's any kind of ladies' man in reality. Or that, if he does have any level of success with women in real life, they're women you personally would want to be spending your time with.
shadowplay Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Interesting "Sobbing hysterically, Mystery reveals that his father was both verbally and physically abusive. This, teamed with emotional distance from his mother, he claims, left him love-starved and unfulfilled as a child."
Jilly Bean Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Tara - I read your opening post, and I thought you were discussing a TYPE. Not specific people who DO this kind of thing for a living. Funny... I think that if a woman is not used to being hit on, then she will easily fall prey to these kind of tactics and smarmy advances. But, if a woman is used to a lot of attention, and has an intact self-esteem, then she will just wave someone like this away. It's kind of like when you go to the Islands, and the guys will make sucking noises at women through the car windows as they drive by. Most ignore them, but some will respond, and those are the women these guys are looking for, and get. Basically, there are some women who are desperate and insecure enough to be picked up on a street corner by some guy with a sassy line, and others can't be bothered, and prefer a genuine and intelligent approach. But, if this whole PUA thing teaches men to have confidence when approaching women, then that can be a good thing for someone who has no game or is too shy. Just so long as they aren't being taught to be disrespectful or sleazy in the process...
sally4sara Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 So a few years ago, a female friend I use to have (and now don't due to this stunt) had a ONS with a guy in our social circle. She was going through some crap and "It just happened". She "didn't plan it" and she didn't "like him like that." Fine whatever. A month later, she starts telling other people in the social group that he raped her! Why this sudden accusation? Well, something she read in Cosmo set her straight. I seem to recall it was one of the PUA fellas in this thread who compared the PUA instructions with Cosmo....I agreed. They are equally guilty of encouraging folks to not take responsiility for their actions. If the guy pretends he is someone he is not to get her into the sack and she regrets it later, it is now conveniently due to her social programming and sexual hangups? And hey!, it serves her right for not taking the time to know him well prior to having sex with him......It just shows he was right to not see her as "girlfriend material", if she was he might have stuck around! See how the excuses - oh! my pardons, theories don't match up while simultaniously eing used to not take responsiility for how she might feel later? Not the guy's fault at all! Not fake at all, no! So lets just stop with the pretending that PUA is all interested in women for the who they are as people. It is usually for the tricking and the ego food. Just like all the crap Cosmo spoon feeds women concerning men that men can't stand.
Surfer Dude Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Whatever. This thread changes nothing. Ridiculous guys remain ridiculous, players and seducers remain players and seducers and their tactics will still go under the radar, and difficult women remain difficult. What did we all manage to conclude here, except that men are using women for pussy and that they are heartless douchebags? I'm packing my kilobytes from here. Too many double standards for my taste, heh. Enjoy your mental masturbation how you're better than everyone else.
sally4sara Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Are there not women who do the same thing? How many women misrepresent themselves to guys to get them? Pretending they like things they don't, playing themselves off as secure and independent when they're actually nothing but. We read threads about it every day going both directions. Here's what will really blow your mind. THERE ARE GIRLS IN THE GAME TOO. That's right, there are girls on the forum. So one waste of life excuses another? I thought it was all for finding someone to marry? Now it's justification for acting like an a$$ cause someone might trick you first?
Phateless Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 No That is in fact what this thread is about. The whole (I love this yank word) douchebaggery surrounding the whole PUA community thing. The notion that there are a select group of gurus in possession of some secret master-key that will open up a world of vaginas. A copy of which they can cut for lesser men....at a price. We sleep with men because we want to. You've said it, I've said it - I'm pretty sure a lot of women on this thread have said it. We're capable of thinking for ourselves and acting for ourselves. We know what we like and we know what we don't like - and the fact that some guru on a message board or in a book might be able to convince other men that he knows what women want does not necessarily mean that he'll be able to convince women that he has what they want. The only thing you can bank on is that what a woman wants varies from women to women....however many message board gurus provide the comforting advice that "one whore is very much like another." It's not the case - hence so much frustration. Even Freud, whose insight into the human mind was probably a fair bit sharper than your average keyboard jockey, couldn't figure out what it was that women wanted. It may well be fun to lecture eachother about women in a seminar room or on a message board....but bear in mind that just because some posturing sage who claims to know all about women has suckered in a group of 18 year old kids on a message board, it doesn't automatically follow that he's any kind of ladies' man in reality. Or that, if he does have any level of success with women in real life, they're women you personally would want to be spending your time with. I see what you're saying. Most of the advice on those forums mirrors some of the advice given on LS. It's only about improving your chances and learning how not to screw it up. A lot of guys just plain have no idea what to do or how to behave. The mission statement of Game is "To teach men what their fathers never taught them."
Phateless Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 So one waste of life excuses another? I thought it was all for finding someone to marry? Now it's justification for acting like an a$$ cause someone might trick you first? No, my point is that you're singling this phenomenon out as a scapegoat when in fact this is widespread and goes far beyond the one little snippet to which you are assigning all of the blame. Everybody wants to learn how to be better at winning the affections of someone they desire.
sally4sara Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Interesting "Sobbing hysterically, Mystery reveals that his father was both verbally and physically abusive. This, teamed with emotional distance from his mother, he claims, left him love-starved and unfulfilled as a child." NOW I'm magically hooked! I feel must go heal him with my vagina and cannot explain why! :love:
Jilly Bean Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 I feel must go heal him with my vagina and cannot explain why! :love: NEVER underestimate the curative powers of good snatch. You go, girl.
Phateless Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 So a few years ago, a female friend I use to have (and now don't due to this stunt) had a ONS with a guy in our social circle. She was going through some crap and "It just happened". She "didn't plan it" and she didn't "like him like that." Fine whatever. A month later, she starts telling other people in the social group that he raped her! Why this sudden accusation? Well, something she read in Cosmo set her straight. I seem to recall it was one of the PUA fellas in this thread who compared the PUA instructions with Cosmo....I agreed. They are equally guilty of encouraging folks to not take responsiility for their actions. If the guy pretends he is someone he is not to get her into the sack and she regrets it later, it is now conveniently due to her social programming and sexual hangups? And hey!, it serves her right for not taking the time to know him well prior to having sex with him......It just shows he was right to not see her as "girlfriend material", if she was he might have stuck around! See how the excuses - oh! my pardons, theories don't match up while simultaniously eing used to not take responsiility for how she might feel later? Not the guy's fault at all! Not fake at all, no! So lets just stop with the pretending that PUA is all interested in women for the who they are as people. It is usually for the tricking and the ego food. Just like all the crap Cosmo spoon feeds women concerning men that men can't stand. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. Some guys lie their asses off to get laid, with or without Game. Game is nothing more than some techniques to help you make a good impression. Google "first date tips" or "interview tips" or "selling tips." They're all based on the same ideas.
sally4sara Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Everyone is responsible for their own actions. Some guys lie their asses off to get laid, with or without Game. Game is nothing more than some techniques to help you make a good impression. Google "first date tips" or "interview tips" or "selling tips." They're all based on the same ideas. And what I keep telling you is that they all, Cosmo, PUA, selling tips, are all for getting something you want to accomplish done and getting out of there *fore your "mark" realizes they were duped. I don't agree that first date and interview tips are as shady as the others; you intend to continue to prove yourself in those instances. What I'm saying is I'm not just anti PUA and I don't give it credit for no reason other than con artists existed long *efore PUA came along. I think my key*oard just lost a *utton!
Phateless Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 And what I keep telling you is that they all, Cosmo, PUA, selling tips, are all for getting something you want to accomplish done and getting out of there *fore your "mark" realizes they were duped. I don't agree that first date and interview tips are as shady as the others; you intend to continue to prove yourself in those instances. What I'm saying is I'm not just anti PUA and I don't give it credit for no reason other than con artists existed long *efore PUA came along. I think my key*oard just lost a *utton! That's where you're wrong. You INSIST that some form of deception is occurring. All those tips are just simple techniques to relate better to people and connect better. They're just people skills. Sales, job interviews and relationships are all about a continuing relationship, not a one time "scam and scram" situation. EDIT - I think I'm about ready to bow out of this thread. The overall tone is highly accusatory and scapegoating from people who have little to no knowledge of the subject matter they are criticizing. This discussion can't go anywhere this way. I believe that PUA material is very helpful for people who want to become less shy, learn how to socialize better and be proactive in finding a life partner. That forum helped me through a lot of personal growth and was instrumental in helping me get over my ex. Furthermore, some of the tips I gathered helped me to meet my current gf and stay more level-headed in the relationship. I no longer feel lost and spiraling out of control with insecurity like I used to. There are a lot of truly positive things about PUA material, mostly teaching us how to be more independent and self-actualized, ultimately making us more ready for a real adult relationship. The sleazebags who give PUAs a bad name would be sleazebags with or without the material. If anyone wants to spend some time doing actual reading, I'm more than willing to continue this discussion. Until then, good day.
Thaddeus Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Can everyone see what's happening here? Camp #1 says, "All women who fall for such trickery are victims/suffer from low self-esteem/have something wrong with them." Campt #2 says, "Whether it's The Game or Cosmo or How To Sell Anything To Anybody, these techniques are all based on the same principles. Doesn't make them good or bad, but given the right circumstances, virtually everyone may fall for them." Personally, I'm in Camp #2. I'm just curious to see how many people who self-identify in Camp #1 have actually read Strauss' book. (By the way, Strauss is a well-known and respected writer with a number of books to his credit. See Emergency: This Book Will Save Your Life and Motley Crue: The Dirt - Confessions of the World's Most Notorious Rock Band among others.) As far as Jilly Bean says,NEVER underestimate the curative powers of good snatch.I CONCUR!!
donnamaybe Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Can everyone see what's happening here? Camp #1 says, "All women who fall for such trickery are victims/suffer from low self-esteem/have something wrong with them." Campt #2 says, "Whether it's The Game or Cosmo or How To Sell Anything To Anybody, these techniques are all based on the same principles. Doesn't make them good or bad, but given the right circumstances, virtually everyone may fall for them." Personally, I'm in Camp #2. I'm just curious to see how many people who self-identify in Camp #1 have actually read Strauss' book. (By the way, Strauss is a well-known and respected writer with a number of books to his credit. See Emergency: This Book Will Save Your Life and Motley Crue: The Dirt - Confessions of the World's Most Notorious Rock Band among others.) As far as Jilly Bean says,I CONCUR!! If every single person who used PUA techniques weren't a scumbag, then I'd also go with camp #2. Not saying all who use them are, but SOME are, and they give the whole thing a bad name. And as for JB's assertion RE: snatch, I ALSO CONCUR!!!
butcher's hook Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 I can kind of see where the frustration from men is coming from, in terms of feeling women really are not defenseless creatures who have no say in the whole pick up scenario, they are right we really do have a say. Some of us more than others, dependent on experience, age and the ability to discern players from the genuinely witty self confident guy who has game but who is also not a scumbag liar. A half decent looking woman has been exposed to all sorts many times around can pretty much see this play out and know what is what. But it is this very idea that someone like Mystery preys on, the idea that because attractive women have been exposed to so many different types of pick-up techniques you MUST up the ante and one up her by treating her basically like crap, seeing her like a slab of meat with a pleasure hole, and at the same time feed her some bullsht stock lines you feed all the women, and that is what feels wrong about the whole thing looking at it from the female perspective and as I can tell some men see this too. Sure we've been around, sure we have been hit on many times, sure we can see a slickster a mile away, but every so often even the most astute of us do let our guards down do want to believe in the "genuine approach" of a man who seems like he is sincere in what he says and we basically want to believe that their motives are coming from a good place, we want to see the positive if you will. You see on the same token some of you men defend the whole pickup strategy, you also want to be taken seriously, you want to have women not hate you and peg you as just "a typical guy" you want to be respected by women as a whole and you want to be given a fair chance at proving that you are not just a scumbag dude like all the other scumbag dudes out there women love to bash on. But coming across in ways that are supposed to blindside a woman just because you assume she been hit on many times, just so that you can get your foot in the door is really not the way to go when it comes to making a name for men in general. The whole bit about "you must get laid within the first 4-10 hrs" or "no woman is special they are all the same" these are the kinds of one liners that get ingrained into the heads of these men who already feel very rejected by women in general and further cement that hatred that fuels the fear that keeps them away from women in the first place. You are not debunking anything. What it does is it teachs you to see women as walking pleasure holes and when you aim to deconstruct people to that level you will never reach your true potential as a human being. Those are the techniques suggested to build self esteem or confidence when if men really wanted to build confidence there are much healthier ways of doing that. The number 1 way to build self esteem: is to face your fears head on. Put yourself in the thick of whatever activity or situation you fear the most and that is how you conquer the fear and in turn build self esteem/confidence in yourself and your abilities. That is how you overcome shyness. The operative word in selfesteem is "SELF". The operative word in con artist is "con" you are conning other people with trite stock lines and seeing how many notches you can get on your belt within 4-6 hours. That is in fact the quickest road to emptiness and perdition. There is no self esteem to be had when you are in perdition. If you are a shy guy, take an improv class you would be surprised how much this will improve your communication and presentations skills. Are you terrified of doing something like that? Even MORE reason why you absolutely SHOULD do it. There are ways to come out of your shell men, and feeding women harsh and condescending buusht lines as at a bar is not the way to go, not by a long shot.
Trialbyfire Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 NOW I'm magically hooked! I feel must go heal him with my vagina and cannot explain why! :love: "Be healed, I embrace you, be healed!"
sally4sara Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Sales, job interviews and relationships are all about a continuing relationship, not a one time "scam and scram" situation. I think I pointed that out in my reply, that interviewing and first date advise are not as shady as your other examples, you intend to stick around for the position or second date. Sales, PUA, are concerned for getting in, getting their way, and getting out. At this point you are not even reading; you're just waiting to retort.
Phateless Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 I think I pointed that out in my reply, that interviewing and first date advise are not as shady as your other examples, you intend to stick around for the position or second date. Sales, PUA, are concerned for getting in, getting their way, and getting out. At this point you are not even reading; you're just waiting to retort. I see what's going on here. You assume that all salespeople are out to get you and that all men hitting on your are out to get you as well.
burning 4 revenge Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 The only secret for a man to have a ONS is to be young and good looking, that seems pretty self evident Women can be total hags though since guys just want release
sally4sara Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 "Be healed, I embrace you, be healed!" Wait a minute.... I think the sad story was another ploy...... I almost fell for it! He IS a PUA guru! :lmao:
sally4sara Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 I see what's going on here. You assume that all salespeople are out to get you and that all men hitting on your are out to get you as well. No, just the ones trying to sell me things I don't want or need and insist the product will HELP me.
Phateless Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 No, just the ones trying to sell me things I don't want or need and insist the product will HELP me. Then walk away. If you buy from them that's their fault? They must be really really good salespeople OR you must be incredibly weak minded. By putting all the responsibility on the guy you are DISEMPOWERING YOURSELF. You can't have it both ways.
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