Spark1111 Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Wow, Athena. You are an amazing woman to have lived with this for as long as you have. He IS smart and arrogant and entitled and deflective, flattering you for being a wonderful mother --in spite of him? And he really seems okay with it. All of it. Smarter than the psychologists and therapists he refuses to see, better than the family who no longer will talk to him, terrible to you but, what can he say? It just happens and happens and happens. He's sorry about it, but he continues to feel most sorry for himself. In the end, it is still ALL about him. Whatever path you choose to take, I wish you well. If you do decide to divorce, you may be pleasantly surprised by how well you make the transition. After reading this truly remarkable post, I sense you have been all alone, emotionally, in your marriage for the past 20 years. Divorce should be a snap for you. Peace.
jj33 Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Every divorced husband paying alimony and child support would probably like to get away with this, BUT THEY DON'T. They pay because they know there are consequences if they don't. I doubt there are many divorced husbands who don't pay alimony and child support because they just don't feel like it. I think this was very bad advice from a bad lawyer. Not sure I quite understand what you are talking about here. Are you saying this is some kind of "loop-hole" he can keep taking advantage of over and over again to avoid paying alimony? Wouldn't some judge eventually "catch on" to what he was doing and close the loophole? This is the stupidest legal advise I ever heard. Where did you find these lawyers? At the local Walmart? This piece of advice( if you can really call it that) solves nothing. You remain stuck in a toxic relationships with no opportunity to move forward in your life. And besides, why should you remain discreet while your husband obviously is flaunting his love affairs? Gee, a lawyer condoning infidelity! I hope you didn't pay for that advice. Again, I ask, why would you want to be with him when his penis has been in a horde of other women. He is a man-whore. If Athena went to the people I think she did, she went to the one of the most highly qualified divorce lawyers in her state. Athenas situtation is unique in various ways but I wont breach her right to privacy. Yes there are loopholes in certain cases such as Athena's. That doesnt solve the emotional issues, but the legal issues arent as black and white as you seem to think. Im sure your next question will be how is it unique youve never heard of such a thing, but let me stress again Athenas right to privacy on what is a public forum. Its particularly important as she may sue her husband for divorce.
Owl Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 That doesnt solve the emotional issues, but the legal issues arent as black and white as you seem to think. . This makes complete sense to me. She's gotten some great practical legal advice...that unfortunately leaves her with what most would consider a completely impractical emotional situation.
taylor Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Ahhh, no. Not so much anymore. Have you seen the COL vs the wages people without any type of viable skill set are earning these days? In my state you couldn't even afford to rent a room with what you would make earning the min wage here. She'd have to work two full time jobs just to try and support herself and if she was really lucky, she might actually make enough to have some type of retirement benefits when she's old enough to drop from exhaustion of keeping up with a grueling work schedule that even young kids can't handle for long. She'd be a fool not going of alimony. Don't tell me this woman can't survive in the world without this man. That's baloney. If he got struck by lightening tomorrow and she lost all rights to his financial assets, she would find a way to survive. She wouldn't die of thirst or hunger or overexposure to the elements of nature. She would survive because she would find a way. I would rather work two jobs, eat Kraft mac and cheese 7 days a week, and collapse dead tired on a mattress on the floor in a rented apartment than ever let a man-whore of a cheating husband like hers put it to me ever again. I wouldn't spend one second putting up with his crap. Life is way too short and I have far too much respect for myself to do that. Athena, grow a backbone, get rid of the dead weight, and learn the value of independence. Your self-respect will blossom. And the power and control you have over YOUR OWN LIFE will be overwhelming. I didn't say she shouldn't seek alimony. But I don't believe she should rely on it either. She doesn't need this man. She needs to learn how to stand on her own two feet.
jj33 Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Yeah Donna she should but if there are loopholes which mean her H can stay one step ahead of being forced to pay each month, then the fact that a court may order it and he should pay means nothing. What someone should do and what how effective the enforcement mechanisms are in a given situation are sadly two different things sometimes.
jj33 Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Don't tell me this woman can't survive in the world without this man. That's baloney. If he got struck by lightening tomorrow and she lost all rights to his financial assets, she would find a way to survive. She wouldn't die of thirst or hunger or overexposure to the elements of nature. She would survive because she would find a way. I would rather work two jobs, eat Kraft mac and cheese 7 days a week, and collapse dead tired on a mattress on the floor in a rented apartment than ever let a man-whore of a cheating husband like hers put it to me ever again. I wouldn't spend one second putting up with his crap. Life is way too short and I have far too much respect for myself to do that. Athena, grow a backbone, get rid of the dead weight, and learn the value of independence. Your self-respect will blossom. And the power and control you have over YOUR OWN LIFE will be overwhelming. I didn't say she shouldn't seek alimony. But I don't believe she should rely on it either. She doesn't need this man. She needs to learn how to stand on her own two feet. Thats true and a nice sentiment, but would you willingly go from a comfortable lifestyle to knowing you could have NOTHING, no bridge, no comfort zone, no cushion? Yes sadly many people find themselves in that situation and deal with it, but if you have to worry that your exH may decide not to fund your child's university tuition etc etc etc and there is nothing you can do about it, you might think twice. Im not saying Athena shouldnt leave him, just saying its not as cut and dried as it would be if an alimony order were easily enforcable against this guy.
taylor Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 If Athena went to the people I think she did, she went to the one of the most highly qualified divorce lawyers in her state. It's very sad indeed when the "most highly qualified" divorce lawyers in a state condone adultery as a solution to any problem. That doesnt solve the emotional issues, but the legal issues arent as black and white as you seem to think. Athena needs to set priorities. If her top priority is financial security, then she sacrifices emotional health and personal well-being. If her top priority is finding a "normal" man to share a "normal" life with, then she may have to sacrifice financial security, at least for a while. It is black and white. It's either, or. It's a choice. It's a trade-off. Make the choice with no regrets. And then learn to live and be happy with that choice. Obviously you are privy to info that not all posters here have. My comments are based solely on public info she has provided. But I think my stance would be the same, regardless.
jj33 Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 It seems to me that the smarter answer is for her to learn how to stand on her own 2 feet while she is still married. Get herself into the job market, get a job that can support her or know she can obtain one, and THEN divorce him. Why divorce sooner based on principle so that she can languish in public housing or some such thing or maybe it wouldnt be that dire but why risk that he will cut off her childrens university payments if she can move herself forward (she now has a REAL motivation to move quickly) and then in a year or so divorce him when she knows she has her own life more in order. It may seem mercenary but it seems to me that many people act out of emotion and then find themselves in a worse position. Unless Athena feels the last straw has been broken and her dignity wont allow her to stay, or her moral principles wont allow her to stay it seems that letting him ease her into the job market would make a lot more sense. I dont know. Its easy for me to take a cold and calculating view as an outsider. Im not the one whose heart has been broken. I did it in my own life by staying in contact with xMM after the affair. So that is just my values for better or for worse.
taylor Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Thats true and a nice sentiment, but would you willingly go from a comfortable lifestyle to knowing you could have NOTHING, no bridge, no comfort zone, no cushion? She's married to a man who is a serial adulterer. I doubt she would walk away penniless from a divorce. Yes sadly many people find themselves in that situation and deal with it, but if you have to worry that your exH may decide not to fund your child's university tuition etc etc etc and there is nothing you can do about it, you might think twice. You are talking about two different things here. Alimony - money to pay for living expenses for the divorced spouse. And money to support an offspring's college education. Two different things. I would divorce the man-whore and if he refused to pay for his child's college education as some sort of revenge tactic, I would march my child into the financial aid office of the college and have him/her apply for loans, grants and scholarships. That's what middle class working Americans do. And yes, to answer your question, I would most definitely give up my comfortable lifestyle before I would give up my self-respect, my independence, and power to control the destiny of my life. It's psychologically and emotionally damaging for a woman to believe she is so helpless that she can't survive in this world without a man, let alone a man like the one Athena is putting up with. If I had a husband like Athena's I would tell him to take his money and shove it up his skanky orifice and I would walk away with my head held high. Im not saying Athena shouldnt leave him, just saying its not as cut and dried as it would be if an alimony order were easily enforcable against this guy.
jj33 Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Im not saying she is helpless and I am not saying she should remain married to this man. I am simply saying she has been putting up with this for many years. If she has now decided she wants out, she should be smart about it. thats all and do it in the way that best takes care of herself and her children. His adultery is not a sudden news flash. If 3 weeks or 3 months down the line she decides she wants to leave ASAP she can do that. But in the meantime, he is not there, why not use this "quiet time" to get her life in order on his dime, which may not be there once he finds out she is serious about divorce. To begin divorce proceedings immediately based on the email exchange seems to me to be rash and based solely on the fact that he is a narcissist pri*ck. We know that. Now the next question is how is what is Athena going to do to make sure she has her ducks in a row going forward. Everyone is different Taylor. There is something very empowering about saying you unapologetic *******, I wont accept this a minute longer, I am leaving. But it can be equally empowering to say right, now I know for sure where things are, I am making a plan and making the situation work for me I will leave when I am ready and have everything set up the way I need it to be for me to move onto the next chapter of my life. He lived that way for years - being married having other woman, caring first and foremost about his own agenda. Why must Athena jump because he said he is finished? He doesnt get to decide when its over. Athena does. And if she wants it to be over tomorrow. Fine she can find a new lawyer and file. If she wants to stay married until she finds a job and is settled, she can wait. I think this is what makes me say she shouldnt be rash. Just because he sent an email saying fine, go, it doesnt mean she needs to jump. Then he is still calling the shots... and that is NOT empowering.
taylor Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 jj33, I agree 100 percent that Athena should have an exit plan and use her head rather than act on emotion in a hasty, uncalculated way. But I don't see Athena making a move to exit. She is spending alot of time and energy e-mailing this "pr*ck" and telling him how much he hurt her. And she is still wondering whether he has it in him to change. She is still waiting for a lightbulb to go off in this dimwit's head. Meanwhile, she has a stupid lawyer telling her it's in her best interest not to divorce but to stay married so that her husband can still provide for her financially while she gets her emotional needs met by initiating a "discreet" affair. And then there are posters lamenting how "stuck" she is because she isn't financially capable of taking care of herself...how can she in this economy..and without skills..and without being in the workforce for years... That's all I am trying to do is counter this line of thinking. I want Athena to know she has the power to change her life if she wants to bad enough. Instead of sending emotional e-mails to this worthless, pathetic man-whore of a husband, she should be using her time and energy more wisely by sending out resumes and networking in the business community to track down potential job leads. If she needs skills or more education, she should be contacting local vocational schools, community colleges, etc. She should be burning up job search engines and attending job fairs..reading the classifieds. She should be so busy right now trying to find a job that she doesn't have a moment of time to think about the scumbag. Athena needs empowerment, not sympathy. She has wallowed in this mess far too long. Change is long overdue. (Don't mean to third party, you, Athena. Just responding to another poster. )
jj33 Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Everyone has a different way of coping. Why shouldnt Athena be able to express her hurt and her outrage at the situation? We dont know. Maybe she has never expressed herself in this way before. He isnt there to accept the verbal tirade he would get if he was there. This is her only outlet. And Taylor she is not you. She has been dependent on this man at least financially for a long time. He has been her H and she loves him. The fact that she even spoke to a lawyer about divorce is a big step. Everyone moves in their own time. I dont think she would have spoken to someone if she didnt want to leave. And also you dont know what she said to him. A lawyer wouldnt simply say no dont divorce. My guess (sorry Athena if I am guessing about your actions I realize its not my business) is she asked what sort of financial settlement and alimony she could expect and that she indicated this was an important factor. Its also possible that he explained the laws on divorce how long it would take etc and said by the way in your situation you should know that your H could avoid his alimony responsibilities and it would be expensive and potentially impossible to hold him to anything and then she asked more questions (wouldnt you?) In either case, he said FINANCIALLY she shouldnt divorce not that she shouldnt divorce. She got an HONEST answer. And that is very worthwhile. It doesnt mean she shouldnt leave, it only means that she knows the score. Sometimes its better not to know what the road ahead will look like, or we would never go down that road, and we would be paralyzed, feeling stuck. However sometimes it is better to know so that we can prepare to the extent possible. Whether its better or not, now she knows. I have the greatest respect for Athena and believe she can handle anything that life throws at her and that if she leaves she will have a far happier life. But I dont think she should be hasty.
taylor Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 To begin divorce proceedings immediately based on the email exchange seems to me to be rash and based solely on the fact that he is a narcissist pri*ck. To begin divorce proceedings would NOT be based on this recent e-mail exchange. It would be based on YEARS of emotional abuse from infidelity and the realization that this abuse will never end as long as this farce of a marriage continues. Why must Athena jump because he said he is finished?He doesnt get to decide when its over. Athena does. And if she wants it to be over tomorrow. Fine she can find a new lawyer and file. If she wants to stay married until she finds a job and is settled, she can wait. No one said Athena should "jump" because he said he is finished. No one said he gets to decide when it is over. In fact, what I gathered from Athena's e-mails to her husband is that SHE is FINISHED. She even told him she sees no future with him anymore. SHE brought up the D word, not him. He said SHE is the one who alluded to separation and divorce, not him. And then he tells her she wins...he will sign divorce papers if she sends them to him. I gather from the e-mail exchange that she is the one pushing for the divorce...not him. Why would he want the divorce when he has spent so many wonderful years having his cake and eating it, too. Why would he want to disturb that nice little dynamic for himself? I gather from her e-mails that SHE is the one telling him it's over...that she isn't going to live like this any longer..and that she wants a divorce. If she follows thru, she will be the one deciding her future, not him. She has the power to call the shots. She has always had that power. He can't take that from her unless she hands it over to him. The way I see it, she is sitting in the driver's seat. She has a choice right now..either hand the wheel over to him or get a firm grip on the wheel, step on the gas and watch his azz disappear in the rearview mirror.
jj33 Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Sugar, are you being serious, or sarcastic about your last line? I feel sad. I know I was pushing him in these emails, but it was in the hopes of him choosing to work on his issues -- but I guess it was easier for him to let me go, instead of changing his ways. I know I have to set myself free. It's just that... for so long I have loved my husband. And for so long he has loved me. And despite his affairs, he always proclaimed it was a mistake doing what he did and he wouldn't do it again, and yet he always did.. the recent one in March this year... I am sad he's not 'that guy' I am sad that the father of my children is away and will stay away. He is working abroad. He has told me before that if I divorce him, we will not see him again.... but ... our kids need him. Yes, they basically grew up not seeing that much of him, but they love him! And he is fun to be around. Even I enjoy him as a friend, I just have come to realize that he is not husband material. Why will he cut our children out just because he can't have me as his wife? Taylor she was pushing him but at least in part in the hope that he would see this as a turning point and change his behavior. And we see it differently, which doesnt matter, what matters is how Athena sees it. I think she has 3 choices, the third being to use this time to move forward knowing now that she is moving in a different direction from him that will lead to divorce sooner or later, as she chooses.
taylor Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Everyone has a different way of coping. Why shouldnt Athena be able to express her hurt and her outrage at the situation? Of course she is entitled to express her feelings and gather as much support as she can during this difficult time. And I am elated that she let him have it with both barrels..telling him just what she thought of him...standing up for herself. And Taylor she is not you. She has been dependent on this man at least financially for a long time. He has been her H and she loves him. And where has this gotten her...all these years of being financially dependent on some guy who could care less how much he hurts her by cheating on her over and over again....all these years of loving a man who can't stop unzipping his pants for other women. Where is the happiness, the joy, the love, the tenderness, the understanding, the respect. I don't see one redeeming quality regarding this man or this marriage. Athena is only 44 years old. She is wasting some of the best years of her life clinging to a guy who offers her...what? If she wants financial security, she should divorce this poor excuse of a husband and give herself the opportunity..the chance..to find another man who can meet both her financial and emotional needs. There are alot of fish in the sea. I would have thrown this one back in a long time ago. Just because you love someone doesn't mean that person is right for you or good for you. Obviously, he is toxic. The fact that she even spoke to a lawyer about divorce is a big step. Everyone moves in their own time. I dont think she would have spoken to someone if she didnt want to leave. I agree. It was a huge step. A step in the right direction. But I don't want to see her backslide now...crawl into a little hole...because she has learned that divorce won't be easy..or comfortable. Its also possible that he explained the laws on divorce how long it would take etc and said by the way in your situation you should know that your H could avoid his alimony responsibilities and it would be expensive and potentially impossible to hold him to anything and then she asked more questions (wouldnt you?) In either case, he said FINANCIALLY she shouldnt divorce not that she shouldnt divorce. She got an HONEST answer. And that is very worthwhile. I would bet many lawyers tell many of their clients the financial downside of divorce. Personally I don't know any divorced couples who weren't hit big-time financially due to their divorce. Many are still recovering financially even though the ink on the divorce papers dried several years ago. These lawyers didn't tell her anything that any divorced couple couldn't tell her...your pocketbook will take a hit if you divorce. Athena needs to decide what is most important to her..financial security or personal well-being/emotional health. I have the greatest respect for Athena and believe she can handle anything that life throws at her and that if she leaves she will have a far happier life.But I dont think she should be hasty. I agree 100 percent.
taylor Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Taylor she was pushing him but at least in part in the hope that he would see this as a turning point and change his behavior. And we see it differently, which doesnt matter, what matters is how Athena sees it. I think she has 3 choices, the third being to use this time to move forward knowing now that she is moving in a different direction from him that will lead to divorce sooner or later, as she chooses. I agree with you jj33. I see 2 things in her e-mails. A woman still holding on to the last shreds of hope that her husband will change..AND...a woman grieving the inevitable loss of a marriage that she desperately tried to hold on to but realizes she no longer can or should. She knows what the right thing to do is..divorce. And she knows why that is the right thing to do. But hope dies hard. I completely understand that the heart is always playing "catch-up" with the head. When her heart can tell her what the head already knows, she will be better equipped to take the steps she needs to to move forward with her life. It makes my heart ache to see this woman in so much pain.
tami-chan Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Athean, I PM'd a response to you. But, you need to divorce. Taylor is right, see another lawyer. I dealt with this in my marriages. I had a lot of therapy to help me recover. My therapist told me that continuing to live with my XNPDW would kill me, and he meant it , literally. These folks are vampires. Athena....lol....good luck, my friend.
prettziel Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 At the risk of sounding like a fool...I am curious why everyone has come to the conclusion that her husband is "gaslighting" or still not accepting responsibility. I don't recall reading any other threads by Athena, so maybe that would shed more light on this whole thread but I didn't draw that conclusion from what I read. Obviously, she has dealt with this person and his selfish behavior for years and I don't condone that she does in the future. However, just from reading the e-mail exchange, I did not see the conclusions other people drew. Someone please enlighten me.
bentnotbroken Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 You have to look at her previous post. And some of us converse through PM.
jj33 Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Also playing games is never good or comfortable but its warranted in this case. Why not let him believe he can play HIS little games awhile longer while she uses the time to get herself ready to file. Nothing wrong with that. Hes played games for years. The last thing she wants to do is tip him off and angers him so much that his salary stops coming while they are still married or less of it comes than otherwise would. Why not let his arrogance work for her? So that she has time to do whatever it is she needs to do before she files. Unless a miracle happens and he suddenly has an epiphany and reforms I venture a guess that by this time next year if not far sooner, Athena will have started the legal process. And if a miracle happens? Then she will have broadened her horizons which is never a bad thing. Im not banking on a miracle, but for Athenas sake, it would be nice. But if not her H, then there will be other miraculous changes in her life.
theBrokenMuse Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 or still not accepting responsibility. Because people that are owning their issues do not try to justify, manipulate or blameshift. At a first glance it can seem that he feels guilt but if you look closely you can make out that which he is displaying as guilt is actually little more than self-pity and deflection (I know what I've done to you but can't you see what your mean actions and words that are calling out my behaviors are doing to me?!) In much of his emails he attempts to make Athena feel sorry for him for wanting out of the relationship or speaking her mind. He turns things around on her (This is most evident in his little - "I may as well kill myself now so you can be happy and I know that's what you want since I am such a horrible person" themed email. He's blatantly trying to get her to back down by trying to manipulate her into thinking that she is doing something wrong by standing up for herself and should feel guilt for it.)
jj33 Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Broken its almost (but definitely not) funny the way you recap it. Oh Im so terrible I may as well kill myself and then youd be happy. Thats right out of a movie. Oh poor him. He was a rat for years and his W called him on it. Boo hoo.
theBrokenMuse Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Broken its almost (but definitely not) funny the way you recap it. Oh Im so terrible I may as well kill myself and then youd be happy. Thats right out of a movie. Oh poor him. He was a rat for years and his W called him on it. Boo hoo. From the letters it seems as if he has the maturity of a child and I honestly found it quite telling that one of the things he grew the most flustered over wasn't the shambles of the marriage and the sorry state of affairs he's created but that Athena wrote something about him aging. If those letters said nothing else, it's blatantly obvious that he is emotionally stunted to the extreme.
2sunny Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 actually she's called him out on it numerous times and he apologized but was unwilling to change his bad behavior... just expected that she would and should continue to be his doormat. guess what? she decided to take her power back, stand up for herself, and get busy living a life without the false pretense of love and what that is supposed to look like when it's healthy. good for her. except for as long as she is willing to read his emails she will see his manipulation trying to seep back in - he's good at turning the tables. she needs to be better than him - at weeding through all the bull. Athena - why don't you stick a FIRM BOUNDARY on him? tell him unless his answer to any question is more than four words - you won't bother reading it! that way - he HAS to say exactly what he needs to in very few words. believe me, i've done this with my controlling, manipulative exH - it works like a charm. it eliminates all the fluff that is used to cover up the real answer. impliment it - 4 words or less!!!! woot! such a great way to simply life with a man that uses too much bull as a cover!
whichwayisup Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 ((Athena)) You stay strong and just know we all have your back. Keep talking it out here.. You are strong!!
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