Athena Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 <<<There is no justification for any action that can hurt and destroy the security of a child! >>>[Athena quoting Spark 1111] H's replies alongside: Athena, I am responsible for my actions and I do not argue with that and I know that there can never be justification for hurting a child. I know I have hurt my children in ways I cannot yet know but which will be revealed over time. I regret that while knowing I can never change the past. I think about this every day. This is not new to me Athena. <<<Psychologists are in agreement that a happy mother makes for strong and confident children. The father's first role in the family dynamic is to go out of his way to make the mother happy.>>> [Athena quoting Spark 1111] I am not awed in any way that "Psychologists are in agreement" about anything. They were once in agreement about the necessity for lobotomies too and that wasn't so long ago they all changed their minds. However, I do agree that " a happy mother makes for strong confident children" and yes, I too have gone "out of my way", I have even gone out of the country to provide for my family, but I have made the mistake of having these affairs and this singular factor has brought the devastation and grief that you have experienced. <<<There is nothing more damaging to a child than to see a devastated, grief stricken mother, something the sudden discovery of an affair usually provides.>>> [Athena quoting Spark 1111] Although I agree with the fact that seeing their mother going through brief or pain of any kind is extremely difficult for any child, I do not agree that "there is nothing more damaging" as I can think of a thousand other macabre and horrible things that happen in war for example that would do even more damage to a child. The way the sentence is constructed however focuses the ultimate blame and guilt on the person perpetrating and affair and therefore on me. Am I as guilty as a rapist? Am I as guilty as a murderer? Let's not believe EVERYTHING that is written just because it is written. *H*, I hope you read and re-read the above, over and over again. Never a truer word was spoken than the above. I know, because I have LIVED through this. Yes, there's no denying you have lived through this Athena and I will be the first to admit that! You don't have to cajole me into reading it over and over again as I think about this every single day and it pervades all my thoughts. How could I have done this to you? Why would I risk my beautiful marriage? Are these OW so important to me? What do my children think of me? What do my family think of me? But, mark me well, if I didn't care, these questions would not be plaguing me each and every day. So, don't think I need prompting to come out of my little dream world and face reality. You have been very selfish in your affairs *H*. You not only destroyed me, but made me less available as a happy mother to our children for the past decade. Yes I have done this. Yes I am guilty of this. But I have not destroyed you Athena. You have in spite of me been a happy mother and an exceptional one at that. Your spirit is indomitable and you have fought hard to maintain your right to be a wonderful mother. Are you telling me you have lost this fight? I don't think so. But I do agree that you should never have put into this 'fight' in the first place, and especially not by your own husband whom you should have been able to trust. All this, because you could count on me to stand by your side, while you willingly made destructive choices. No, that is not true Athena. When you say this it always sounds like I have somehow maximised the advantage and carried on regardless because I knew I was safe. Utter rubbish. If you stop and think about it, I have been struggling with my problem for years and would have continue to struggle if I was married or not. While it looks to you like I took you for granted, I assure you I was not. I wish you had just left me and gone for your first affair partner – the work colleague you took to *L*City*… you would have spared me and the kids much. So your understanding was not genuine on that one and I thought you said otherwise. Anyway she was just the same as all the rest so I will not dwell on this point. I am still guilty. However, when you say I would have spared you and the children much, I feel devastated. Have I meant nothing in your lives except a constant source of pain, regret, embarrassment, shame, betrayal? But instead you hid it all and lied through your teeth, gaslighting (What the f**k does this word mean? You use it often and I still honestly don't know what it means. Please don't use colloquial American English terms with me as I simply don't know them). me and calling me ‘crazy’ when I questioned your activities… and every time you have ‘apologized’ Of course I lied. Go ask your psychologist buddies if there was ever an person having an affair that didn't lie. It is part of the equation and just entering into that part alone should be a wake-up for the parties concerned, but invariably it is not. Too much construction has gone into the shaping of the affair to let the guilt of lying persuade one to stop. So yes, I lied but it was not a way to make you feel stupid or ignorant or deluded. It was a stupid attempt to keep the details from you of something I had stolen. you just went right back to doing it again, therefore the apology was not genuine, just a ‘front’ to allow you to carry on your way. Completely wrong assumption but very easy to see why the conclusion was reached! Yes I have apologised and yes I meant it. It was not a clever ploy to get around you. If you know me well Athena, you will know too that I deeply regret what I have done. I would have to be a psychopath not to feel remorse for what I have done. There was no "front". Yes, you are narcissistic. You may not like this ‘label’, but it just shows that you are not in any way unique in what you are doing – many, many narcissistic people are living destructive lives such as you. They almost never recover, because, like you, they blame Others for what they are willingly Choosing to do. They glibly accuse the spouse of making them go have affairs with others – so therefore, it’s not really their own fault, now is it? They had no choice but to go f**k others. And they carry on, just like you – having 13 affairs while in a marriage! I appear to fit almost all of the requirements for being a narcissist so therefore I am. OK then, I accept this 'label'. There is one small chink in the armour however, and that is I do not blame others for what I have done, nor have I used that as an excuse for having continuing to have affairs. I have tried to find why and where in my life I came to allow myself to do these things, but I am talking about 'My life' and analysing everything in terms of that, not other peoples lives. Secondly, aren't narcissists supposed to love themselves? I truly hate myself. Can you not stop and look at your behaviour? Can you not analyze yourself? Can you just ‘ignore’ what you are doing? Yes, you can, because you want to. You have only recently started saying you have ‘a problem’ (ya think?!) and yet your lack of Action to get professional help, speaks volumes about your intention to Stop. I am trying to analyse myself Athena. Believe me I am trying. You make it sound like it was just last week that the idea suddenly popped into my head when you say "ya think?". That is kind of mocking me. Getting professional help is certainly necessary but the thought processes I go through with them are re no different to the thought processes I go through on my own so yes, I have delayed on that account thinking that I can do this on my own. I have to do this on my own eventually anyway as i cannot accept another persons direction or else it wouldn't be mine to own. I cannot be there alongside you, coaxing you on, loving you, helping you when you are hell bent on destruction *H*. That one fact, that you cannot be here alongside me is the greatest loss in my life. Yes, by all accounts I have been "hell bent on destruction" and this is due in part to my feeling of inadequacy despite your assertions that I am strong and unfeeling. I don't feel like I am worth anything and therefore will not make a difference to anyone. You think you are sooooo special and can ‘get’ any woman you like – a sad delusional thought, I might add, one I have come across many atime with *friend z*… but he believes his delusions and apparently, you do too. I deeply resent your comparing me with *friend z*. I am not delusional in any way. That's just a rude thing to say and maybe gives your argument some sort of currency, but not to me it doesn't. I do not think I am soooo special Athena and neither do I think I can 'get' any woman I want. It looks like I am on a quest to conquer everything in a skirt, but that is simply not true. If it is a delusional thought, then it is one you have contrived to support your assertion. You think your sexing women is so great and wonderful. It is not. It is fake. So is your self-proclaimed ‘genuine charm’ – it’s fake *H*… you are just saying some words to manipulate a horrible event – to make a woman Believe and Trust in you so she sleeps with you, thinking you might just be her true Prince Charming and save her out of her misery of being alone and unwanted… I have never said that sexing women was great. Yet again you have assumed something about me without verifying the facts. The whys and hows of what I have done have many aspects to them and whether I do it using clandestine manoeuvres or not is neither here nor there in the final analysis. The fact is that it is plain and simply wrong. I asked you once before not to question the one thing about my character which was my so-called 'charm'. I did not build it up so that I could use it to seduce women, but it has certainly been part of the way I have done this in the past. I asked you not to take this one thing away from me, but I see that you just don't care. Please never refer to me being a charmer again. I noticed you used that description to me in one of your recent emails when you were feeling warmer towards me but now I know you don't mean it, so please, just don't use that reference any more or I will have to remind you of your disingenuous reference with respect to your continual slating of my well-known characteristic. It should be easy for you to comply with this request given what I have said, don't you think? I feel sorry for you *H*, because you have thrown away anyone who really loved you, including me. To the contrary Athena. I have clung to you and have never once allowed you to nurture the idea of leaving me. I have not thrown you away but I have over the years by my actions lost so many wonderful privileges with you. You think I don't know that? . Because you are wasting your time (and your life! You are already a fifty year old man!) on stupid one night stands and ****ing stupid little girls. You throw away the substance, to pick up the glitter. I do not see myself with you in my future. You have not changed. You have not really used your analytical mind to see what the f**k you are doing to us (our marriage, our family)… you have behaved in a selfish manner, for some ridiculous prize which for some reason your teenaged brain thought was the Real Deal – f**king as many women as possible. I have most certainly wasted my time getting involved in these affairs and I have indeed lost sight of the permanent good that a stable and loving relationship represents for inconsequential one-night stands and pseudo love affairs. I have used my analytical mind to consider all the parameters of my actions and I find I am sadly lacking some intrinsic moral fibre which prevents me from doing what I already know is wrong. I never had a goal in mind to go around "****ing as many women as possible". That is something that sounds plausible but it simply isn't true. I enjoy sex just as my body was designed to do but in the context of a loving relationship it means so much more. I have missed that over the years I have been away from you and I stupidly substituted other women to selfishly satisfy that basic desire. That's how come I always maintain there was nothing more to it than that with them. That is the simple analysis I have concluded in my head for the reasons as to why I have the track record that I have. The reasons not to have done these things are of course voluminous and I will not ignore the effects and consequences of my actions, but as for the reasons why I continued to indulge in extra-marital relationships is just as I've said. I know you are going to throw the narcissist reasoning back at me and say that I have very cleverly turned the tables on you for not being with me and therefore it's now all your fault that I went astray, but I refute that entirely. When you find yourself in a few years time, without your hair, without your looks, and god forbid, without your job, how the hell are you going to **** younger women? There will be younger better looking men than you around… men with full heads of hair and no beer gut. Men who can offer those same women you are going after, with a Real Future, not just a con man one time affair. Are you having a cruel laugh at me for getting older? It is not my fault that I am losing my hair Athena. I do not have a beer gut. Anyway I haven't eaten properly for almost three weeks so I am much thinner than you saw me last. But I have never discredited your actions by your appearance, so why are you doing this to me? I have the experience that younger men do not have and I have far more presence than them, so they haven't got a chance to compete with me when it comes to forming relationships. Women see young men coming a mile away trying to impress with their wallets bulging out their back pockets and their premature ejaculatory penises out the front. I don't throw myself into the fray with loads of women trying to see if I can snag one. You must have me confused with cattle herders. If you are going to criticize me Athena, please do it with maturity and not stoop to rudeness. I have wronged you in the most despicable way but you do not need to relieve your anger and disgust by poking fun at me so as to make me desperate about things I cannot do anything about, like losing my hair. Shame on you for throwing me away. Shame on you for hurting me – your loving long-suffering wife. Yes. Shame on me Athena. I have so much shame I feel beyond redemption. I see God laughing at me and the Devil too. I see you mocking me for having done the things I have, I see my family looking at me sideways too. My own parents are only too happy to point the finger and 'throw the first stone' in condemnation of my sins. My brother is colder towards me than ever before and is probably gloating over the hollow victory he perceives he has over me. My sister could never stand me. My own children are confused about choosing sides. Your mother remains neutral for she has lived a life of hardship without a husband and knows the suffering that goes with it so will not consciously encourage you to do the same. Your brother *B* behind his demure of self control and organisation is probably steaming inside to have a chance to beat me up. Even *friend H* has given up on me. Do you know what it is to live like this? No, you don't have to as you never did anything wrong, but I did and it is a living hell with all my waking thoughts attacking me and reminding me of what a truly disgusting man I have turned out to be. So your reminder of the shame I live for having hurt you is most certainly acknowledged. I don’t see a future with you because you have not genuinely learned anything, nor changed, nor even truly addressed what the f**k you are doing. Athena, I cannot assert to you that I have 'genuinely learned' from the mistakes I have made because even if I did tell you this, you would simply throw it back in my face with reference to my past and my track record. You've done it so many times and I know the drill so I have not got the opportunity of showing you or convincing you or being allowed to demonstrate my intentions as they are scuttled before I even start when you use sentences like this. I really don't know what else to say to you in response to sentences like this. I know you have the right to say them but there's literally nothing I can say to convince you otherwise. If I tell you that time will tell, you immediately point your finger at the time that has passed and refer to that. I can't change that as you well know. You can continue to lie to yourself and feel special when you hang out with a crowd in their twenties, *H*, but trust me – you do not fit in with them, you are the old man, and you look it too. This is not about hanging out with crowds in their twenties! I don't know anybody here apart from two trainees that are in their twenties. Everybody here has decades of experience in their jobs and I associate only with a few of them when I go out. I am about average in age here, so your description is completely off track. Well done for your life’s legacy. Destroyed me in the process. This is all of your continuing CHOICE – over and over again you made the SAME choice! So my life is over now? I thought it was how a person ended a race that made the difference, not how they started it. Do I now have to continue to live this "legacy"? What was all the soul-searching for if not to find ways to change myself for the better? Again you have said something that sounds plausible and astute, but it is not right. I do know why you say these things Athena, but they're not right. Yes, I have made the same choices over and over again and that is the root cause of all my problems and the consequences of my choices have most definitely hurt you and damaged our loving relationship. But I do not agree that you are destroyed. Why do you still bring these issues to my attention? Isn't that proof enough that you are still alive and fighting for resolution from me? Despite me giving you my love, my heart, my future, you continued to lie to me, not wanting to even hear me cry or see my tears, you put me on Ignore, and now you must face the fact that I am not there for you anymore – you drove me away. You chose to hurt me with your constant philandering, and the sick thing is, you still seem kinda proud about the fact that you could f**k these women. I am sorry I have caused so much ruin in your life Athena. You were everything to me and I have caused you endless pain, heartache, uncertainty and suffering. This is not what I wanted for you Athena but it is nevertheless what I have given you through my selfish choices. My stomach turns when I see you cry and see your tortured face knowing it was me that did this to you. I never put you on "ignore mode" Athena. Yes, I did constantly engage in a philandering way of life but it wasn't to a choice to hurt you, it was a choice to satisfy my selfish desires, the hurt was a consequence. There's a subtle difference in the way I described it, but I know that effectively it means the same thing as what you said. I did not want to drive you away Athena. I needed your tender touch and love ever since I met you. I always wanted you but we were always moving and starting somewhere else. Although I had great difficulty in working out the logistics and therefore balked at ways of accommodating my family in the various countries I visited, I always missed not having you with me. I was proud of you and always took you through every office I worked in. How could I have consciously driven you away when I have always felt like this about you? I am not proud of bedding all those women. Whatever impression you may have about that is entirely incorrect. I do feel pity for you, for you have invested in scum and in lies and your life is nothing but smoke-and-mirrors – and you can only feel good about yourself when you see yourself reflected well in these idiot’s eyes – they don’t know any better *H*, but I do, and so do you, even if you have chosen to ignore the reality of what you are doing. You know. I know. And in time, it will be apparent to everyone, the quicker you show your age, and the discrepancy of your actions that go along with it. I understand your pity as a way of expressing your disgust for me and that any human being shouldn't have to endure that. Just as a person feels pity for a prisoner that is about to be executed. I don't feel good about myself in any way at all despite what you may say. But I am not some fool that swans around whore houses and smoky gambling clubs picking up women and living a delusion that maybe I'll stick it rich and become somebody. I see in my reflected image a man who desperately wants to do the right things in life but he is the mirror of me and I am more than aware of that from considering how I have led my life thus far. I have not chosen to ignore what I am doing - far from it. Why do you continually say that? Is it because I don't contact you daily to tell you that I do? Yes, I know what I have done and I am painfully aware of everything that has happened because of it. I would have to be some sort of unfeeling psychopath not to acknowledge what I have done Athena. But then again, maybe with comparisons you with me and *friend Z* you are thinking along the lines that I am exactly that. It is already apparent to everyone what I have done! There's no need to promise me that one day everybody will know what a bastard I've been. They already know! They know the discrepancies and they know the inconsistencies and they know the pain and suffering I've caused and they ALL despise me including you. I also despise myself. More than you may yet be aware of. You may choose to ignore my email, and let it wash off your back like water off a duck’s back… go along with your veneer of a life. You had it all, but you threw it away, and you seem proud of your choices, but know this – I SEE what you have done, and I feel sorry for you. I hope you will see that I have tried to answer your email honestly. I am not the callous 'duck' who let's momentous issues like this simply wash over him. But you're right about the veneer my life has taken on by my actions. It doesn't matter about the good I've done when I am guilty of the wrongs I have committed.
boldjack Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Do you ever think that H will stop trying to shmooze you?
Author Athena Posted July 8, 2009 Author Posted July 8, 2009 Do you ever think that H will stop trying to shmooze you? aaahhhh -- Jack! It takes one Charmer to Recognize another!!! lol...:love:
Reggie Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 This guy is truly a monster.His picture must be in the dictionary by "Narcissisim". Athena, he twists and deflects ao adroitly he is a classic NPD who will destroy you if you stay in contact with him. I'm glad you got a chance to tell him what he is. But, in dealing with these folks, one never gets the satisfaction of seeing true remorse or acceptance of responsibility. He is one sick MF and you are blessed to be rid of him.
Author Athena Posted July 8, 2009 Author Posted July 8, 2009 This guy is truly a monster.His picture must be in the dictionary by "Narcissisim". Athena, he twists and deflects ao adroitly he is a classic NPD who will destroy you if you stay in contact with him. I'm glad you got a chance to tell him what he is. But, in dealing with these folks, one never gets the satisfaction of seeing true remorse or acceptance of responsibility. He is one sick MF and you are blessed to be rid of him. THANK YOU Reggie! Truly, I NEED to see that his NPD is visible by others too! I am going to leave.
tami-chan Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Oh Athena....it IS laughable if it weren't our lives, isnt it? Your H is impressive...<clap >...how does one leave from someone like that? Me? I realized the more I listen to my H, the more I am manipulated to see his action from HIS "point of view"..."but, but, Tami..how do you think I felt?"...omg...I did not know I was supposed to worry about how he felt after his affairS, :rolleyes:apparently, he felt so disgusted with himself he had to do it again!
Author Athena Posted July 8, 2009 Author Posted July 8, 2009 Oh Athena....it IS laughable if it weren't our lives, isnt it? Your H is impressive...<clap >...how does one leave from someone like that? Me? I realized the more I listen to my H, the more I am manipulated to see his action from HIS "point of view"..."but, but, Tami..how do you think I felt?"...omg...I did not know I was supposed to worry about how he felt after his affairS, :rolleyes:apparently, he felt so disgusted with himself he had to do it again! LOL! Tami you are so right!!! :lmao: exactly ! Yeah, my H KNOWS how to charm me (and other women too...) sigh... it's his strength, but as ALL strengths work, it's also his weakness... in excess... thanks for you post!
tami-chan Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Tami, you are truly a wonder.:) Boldjack! I am so close to freedom I can feel it!!!!
carhill Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 I think there's some stairs and a banana peel in his future
Author Athena Posted July 8, 2009 Author Posted July 8, 2009 Boldjack! I am so close to freedom I can feel it!!!! Tami, I respect the hardships you endured through your H's affairs. You have shown a very strong and proud backbone, and I am watching to see (and cheer) you walking out of there with your head held high!
boldjack Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Athena, just imagine how much happier you would be without this stress and heartache. Freedom is like a new beginning.:D
Author Athena Posted July 8, 2009 Author Posted July 8, 2009 I think there's some stairs and a banana peel in his future lol Carhill -- that's a very unique way of saying that! ha ha... And -- where you addressing MY H's future, or Tami's?
tami-chan Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 I have Athena ( i heart you,Athena! ), you(boldjack) and Jwi71:love:..lol..to thank for giving me the nudge ( courage, really) to come clean about everything to H and Family....it was super scary but I felt like this afterwards ---->:bunny:! Muito Obrigado~~~ I can't wait for Athena's time......((((athena))))
Author Athena Posted July 8, 2009 Author Posted July 8, 2009 I have Athena ( i heart you,Athena! ), you;) and Jwi71:love:..lol..to thank for giving me the nudge ( courage, really) to come clean about everything to H and Family....it was super scary but I felt like this afterwards ---->:bunny:! Muito Obrigado~~~ I can't wait for Athena's time......((((athena)))) Tami, you have g-r-o-w-n so much... you are an inspiration to me. I know these boards help people, because they have helped me too. Maybe you can go back one day and update your First Thread ?!
tami-chan Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Tami, you have g-r-o-w-n so much... you are an inspiration to me. I know these boards help people, because they have helped me too. Maybe you can go back one day and update your First Thread ?! Oh..hehe..my first thread...I didn't know what I had gotten myself into-absolutely unprepared for the onslaught of questions and comments....i was like WHOAH!!!! By the way THAT was your bright idea of me starting my own thread ( the invitation did not come with the warning!)....thanks a lot! LOL!!!!! i am kidding....Thank you, Athena!
Author Athena Posted July 8, 2009 Author Posted July 8, 2009 Oh..hehe..my first thread...I didn't know what I had gotten myself into-absolutely unprepared for the onslaught of questions and comments....i was like WHOAH!!!! By the way THAT was your bright idea of me starting my own thread ( the invitation did not come with the warning!)....thanks a lot! LOL!!!!! i am kidding....Thank you, Athena! Ha ha! Lol! I remember your comment on that thread where he got revenge on his cheating wife by hooking up with his W's MM's Wife!!! And your post Intrigued me, that's why I asked you to start your own thread! And then I started MY thread... and ... it DOES help. I thank everyone on these boards for their input.
sugarmomma Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 That one fact, that you cannot be here alongside me is the greatest loss in my life. Yes, by all accounts I have been "hell bent on destruction" and this is due in part to my feeling of inadequacy despite your assertions that I am strong and unfeeling. I don't feel like I am worth anything and therefore will not make a difference to anyone. Athena, this is a man that has continued to show that he is unwilling/unable to be faithful in a marriage? Even the bible gives an "out" of a marriage due to adultery. It sounds like from your part, it was an attempt to continue to make him feel "bad" about what he has done. Maybe hoping that one day he'll feel bad enough to want to change or get old and tired and throw in the towel. Maybe so, but nevertheless, it sounds like he was simply saying "this is who I am and I am sorry YOU decided to stick around and got hurt as a result of me just being myself. No need to try to make me feel guilty, I do but not enough to be faithful." So my only question would be what was it about you that decided to stay (for as long as you did because I assume you are separated) when he was clearly just being himself? My mother used to always say "sweetie, always accept a man for who he is or leave him alone." I am a firm believer that there are no victims in affairs, only volunteers.
Author Athena Posted July 8, 2009 Author Posted July 8, 2009 I sent my H some information on Steve McNair's affair and death... here is his response: If I were killed, I think it would solve all your problems. You too would only have lost a lying, cheating husband. Maybe then you'll be free to find a man who will contrast my behaviour and show me up for the man I truly am. This is one of the most selfish things I have ever seen you write! Firstly, I do not need to have you dead in order to be free of you and find a man who will love me properly. There is something called Divorce. Secondly, you don’t think your death will be devastating to ALL of us?! How horrible. Just for a moment think of what Steve McNair’s family is going through right now! Four sons without their father, and an unsuspecting wife, not only hit with the loss of her H, but also the news of his cheating! Last, but not least – his mother, who had to raise five sons all on her own after her own husband cheated on her and left!!!!! Come on, *H*, we don’t even have Life Insurance on you… so even that would hit this entire family… to say nothing of extreme emotional trauma – have you not caused enough?! Funny, isn’t it, how you Instinctively shy away from doing the ONE thing you should – help us heal, but opt to take the Easier path, or at least to threaten something ugly… not do any hard work to Change yourself (but why change what you don’t want to change? You must like doing this, because you’ve done it since you were 21 years old – over and over… clearly not a ‘mistake’ – that’s kinda funny you even call it that, since you cannot make the same mistake 13 times unless you are retarded). [/Quote] Athena I am crying out for help !!! I try desperately to consider your thinking and respond accordingly in a way that you know I have heard what you say and know what you mean. You sent me that horrible article to tell me that you think I should suffer death for what I have done and there's no telling me you didn't have that in mind when you selected this one example of what comes to a philanderer. You send me these things in all their horror but when I respond to them you accuse ME of writing the most selfish things? I have gone through and am continuing to go through daily fights with myself to find the right thing to do and find a way of demonstrating it to you and 'coming right' but I can't change time and I can't show you through satisfactory 'track records' so I am eternally condemned. I know you are hurting Athena. Believe me I know this. I am responsible for having created the pain, so I should know full well what I am liable. I am hurting too, but I have definitely NOT instinctively or otherwise shied away from doing the ONE thing that I should. I have not shied away from doing any of the many things I should but you have somehow ignored every one of my efforts and have continued to kick me because the things I have accomplished are not on your check-list of satisfactory milestones. We cannot heal if you or I continually open wounds no matter how recent they may have been inflicted. Oh ****. I've been trying to answer your email line by line but I've just read your last line. "Retarded" . OK. I get it. H Here is my email to him explaining what Gaslighting is: http://elissestuart.wordpress.com/2008/09/22/gaslighting-a-narcissists-game/ Victims or “targets” of Narcissists are often nurturing, sensitive, forgiving human beings. It is precisely those character traits that make she/he (more often victims are females rather than males) more vulnerable to abuse from the Narcissist. As a result of their relationship, the victim or “target” can suffer from depression, drug/alcohol abuse and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Psychological abuse is very serious; it leaves emotional scars. Scars, that no one can see, but they are as real as any bleeding wound. Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse. It involves an increasing frequency of systematically withholding factual information from, and/or providing false information to the subject, having the gradual effect of making the victim anxious, confused, and less able to trust his or her own memory, perception and judgement. A variation of gaslighting, used as a form of harassment, is to subtly alter aspects of a victim’s environment, thereby upsetting his or her peace of mind, sense of security, etc. The term was coined from the 1940 film Gaslight and its 1944 remake in which changes in gas light levels are experienced several times by the main character. The classic example in the film is the character Gregory using the gas lamps in the attic, causing the rest of the lamps in the house to dim slightly; when Paula comments on the lights’ dimming, she is told she is imagining things. Paula believes herself alone in the house when the dimming occurs, unaware that Gregory has entered the attic from the house next door. The sinister interpretation of the change in light levels is part of a larger pattern of deception to which the character Paula is subjected. [/Quote] Here is H's response: Narcissists Victims Psychological abuse is very serious withholding factual information sinister interpretation I am all these things but I don't want to be a narcissist! I don't want to play this game any more. I don't want to continue hurting you. I cannot do or say anything right. I have no credibility because of my own actions. I am discredited as a man, as a husband, as a father and should not have thought I could aspire to anything better than what I have been exposed for. 'They' were right all along. You win Athena. You win. Send me the papers and you can be free.
sugarmomma Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 You win Athena. You win. Send me the papers and you can be free. The responsibility for your pain remains your own. This is a form of self torture. Why don't you set yourself free? He can't be the man you wish he were. He's not "that guy". I wish you the best Athena!! You seem like a great person!
2sunny Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 A- nice job holding your own!!! he's a slippery little sucker isn't he? his written word is constantly acknowledging the bad behavior and then justifying his reasons in the same paragraph. not only that - but he's so busy constantly moving his position around it would cause whiplash. the old - i'm to blame - i couldn't help it attitude. be glad you don't have to listen to all the empty words anymore. he uses so many words to actually say nothing of value. in fact, 80% of what he wrote was spent justifying his position or making it look different than the reality. after that - he constantly wanted to argue your position and opinion. his change in position is just a way of distracting you. if this poor sucker would OWN his bad behavior - through and through - and was actually WILLING to take ACTION to repair and fix what is broken in him - he might actually have a chance at happiness. be well A - you deserve better than half of a broken man... he has so much work to do and he doesn't even want to begin. you deserve to be happy... it's hardly worth corresponding with him anymore... all you are still going to get is lies and manipulations and him trying to make YOU feel guilty... mainly because this is so second mature to him that he doesn't know how to do it any other way. go on... be happy.
Author Athena Posted July 8, 2009 Author Posted July 8, 2009 The responsibility for your pain remains your own. This is a form of self torture. Why don't you set yourself free? He can't be the man you wish he were. He's not "that guy". I wish you the best Athena!! You seem like a great person! Sugar, are you being serious, or sarcastic about your last line? I feel sad. I know I was pushing him in these emails, but it was in the hopes of him choosing to work on his issues -- but I guess it was easier for him to let me go, instead of changing his ways. I know I have to set myself free. It's just that... for so long I have loved my husband. And for so long he has loved me. And despite his affairs, he always proclaimed it was a mistake doing what he did and he wouldn't do it again, and yet he always did.. the recent one in March this year... I am sad he's not 'that guy' I am sad that the father of my children is away and will stay away. He is working abroad. He has told me before that if I divorce him, we will not see him again.... but ... our kids need him. Yes, they basically grew up not seeing that much of him, but they love him! And he is fun to be around. Even I enjoy him as a friend, I just have come to realize that he is not husband material. Why will he cut our children out just because he can't have me as his wife?
Author Athena Posted July 8, 2009 Author Posted July 8, 2009 A- nice job holding your own!!! he's a slippery little sucker isn't he? his written word is constantly acknowledging the bad behavior and then justifying his reasons in the same paragraph. not only that - but he's so busy constantly moving his position around it would cause whiplash. the old - i'm to blame - i couldn't help it attitude. be glad you don't have to listen to all the empty words anymore. he uses so many words to actually say nothing of value. in fact, 80% of what he wrote was spent justifying his position or making it look different than the reality. after that - he constantly wanted to argue your position and opinion. his change in position is just a way of distracting you. if this poor sucker would OWN his bad behavior - through and through - and was actually WILLING to take ACTION to repair and fix what is broken in him - he might actually have a chance at happiness. be well A - you deserve better than half of a broken man... he has so much work to do and he doesn't even want to begin. you deserve to be happy... it's hardly worth corresponding with him anymore... all you are still going to get is lies and manipulations and him trying to make YOU feel guilty... mainly because this is so second mature to him that he doesn't know how to do it any other way. go on... be happy. 2Sunny, thank you for your analysis of the letter. Yes, lol, he does tend to write a lot of words, when just a few would do, lol, he can write, but he can't 'own' it... thank you for your perspective and your well wishes. I know this is best, intellectually... I know, I know, I just have to DO IT, and that is the hard part.
sugarmomma Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 No. I was not being sarcastic. I was merely asking the question because he seems to not want to change at all. Therefore, it is only reasonable to ask why arent' you taking control of your life instead of waiting for him to change. He admitted that he doesn't like himself very much, which says to me that he is thoroughly incapable of giving you the love you deserve. I think it would be hurtful for him to abandon his children as a result of the divorce. However, you need to understand that you only live once. Do you really want to look back over your life and say you wasted it on someone who has attributed to so much of your pain? I know how hard it is to divorce the person you love. I am recently divorced and I still love my husband but I knew deep down in my heart that I deserved more than he was able to give. Just because I divorced him, didn't mean I had to stop loving him. I just had to put me first for a change. I set myself free instead of waiting for him to set me free or be the man I needed and wanted.
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