Sexual aftermath

[sedgwick]

One of the Joe-related things I'm still trying to come to terms with is how guilty he made me feel about sex. He was always telling me that my libido was higher than his, and the day he dumped me, he said, "I think sex is to you what music is to me." (That was truly one of the most hurtful things anybody has ever said to me -- I've wondered ever since if he ever noticed I DID things.) A fair amount of the time I'd want it and he'd be too wrapped up in thinking about music or post-playing-music exhaustion to accommodate me.

 

As a result, I've pretty much turned off my sexuality for the past two years. I think about it sometimes, but it's like it's just a thing for other people and my sex drive needs to be repressed. I'm always mystified by the prevalent belief that guys want sex all the time; I've never had a male partner who wanted it as often as I did. And I'm not, like, some crazy sex fiend, but once a day would be fine. I've come to feel like that's just way too much and I should be embarrassed about it.

 

Joe made me feel embarrassed about sex a lot. He told me he'd never dated a woman who didn't complain about giving oral, and I had to do a lot of convincing him that I really did want to. I pretty much did it every time I saw him (and I'm a gal who's watched a whole lotta porn to learn how to do it well, which I thought might be something a guy would appreciate and want to return), but in the year we were together he reciprocated twice, and never long enough that I actually came or anything. I didn't ask for more; I didn't want him to do it if he didn't want to. So I felt guilty and embarrassed about that.

 

I asked him once to talk to me in bed, told him how much that turned me on, and his response was, "You and your words." So then I felt guilty and embarrassed about that too.

 

He often told me I liked to kiss more than he did, so I tried not to kiss him as frequently as I would have liked. Again: guilty and embarrassed.

 

God, he just shredded my self-esteem. particularly my sexual self-esteem. I've stayed away from it because I don't feel attracted to anybody but him, but also because I don't want to bother anyone -- particularly anyone male -- with how much I want it. I feel like this is something I should keep hidden and contained so as not to embarrass myself. I really don't even feel like a sexual being anymore.

 

July 16th will be two years exactly since he left me. Since then I haven't been kissed, haven't had sex, haven't flirted with anyone, haven't been flirted with (mostly because I don't go out very often; I'm too afraid of running into him), and don't even masturbate anymore. I feel like it's better that I just turn that part of me off. Are there really men out there who would actually like it if they were with a woman who wanted to have sex every day, or a woman who wanted to give them head all the time (he really made me ashamed of the fact that I loved it and wanted to do it)? Or maybe there are plenty of them, but they just don't want it with me. Someone prettier than me, maybe, or thinner. Joe left me feeling like I have such an ugly body (it's been really tough for me being in a bellydance company and having to get onstage scantily clad) and am so bad in bed. I guess I'm doing the world a favor by shutting my sexuality down, but it sure is lonely.

 

I wonder if I'll ever come out of this. I wonder if anyone will ever be attracted to me again, and if they are, if I'll have to continue to repress my sex drive. I have this dream of having someone appreciate it, but I realize every day that the chances of finding that get slimmer and slimmer.

[jlr]

No one your dating should ever make you feel guilty about it or anything. I mean, I understand there's times when a person isn't in the mood or something, but to make the other person feel stupid or to belittle them ("you and your words") - that's wrong. You'll find a person who will appreciate that part of you. He's the one missing out here. Don't turn your drive off, just find a guy who will appreciate it. There's tons out there who would. And as for him not going down on you, but you doing it alot for him - not cool either.

[GorillaTheater]

I'm very sorry your ex effected your self-image to this degree, but I'm even sorrier that you continue to let him have this effect on your life.

 

Although this is strictly anecdotal, I'd have to say that you were in the range of "normal" sexually, but he wasn't.

[sedgwick]

Yeah, the whole oral thing...I asked him one time why he never did it and the answer was, "Sometimes I get cold sores and I don't want to give you herpes." Our sex life was basically like, "Will you kiss me?" "No." "Wanna have anal?" "Maybe someday, not now." "Will you talk to me in bed?" Silence. "Please?" "I don't know what to say, I'm not good with words like you." "Will you get on top of me?" "No, I like it better when you're on top of me." "Can we try this position?" "No, I'll cum too fast." "Wanna watch porn?" "Porn doesn't do anything for me." "Wanna go to Toys in Babeland?" "Don't have time, gotta play bass."

 

GT, I don't know how NOT to let him affect my life. If I could just stop loving him, I would. If I could stop thinking about him, I would. But I can't seem to figure out how. My brain is constantly screaming at me that if I had just been good enough, sexy enough, thin enough, whatever enough, maybe he could have loved me -- but I wasn't, so he didn't.

[Road To Joy]

I've been reading your posts for a little while now and honestly, you seem like a passionate woman with a beautiful soul. I would date you in a heartbeat.

 

To me it seems you just fell for the wrong guy and got stuck in one of the recovery phases.

 

You're a belly dancer, a writer, smart, determined, passionate, pleasing... what more does he want?!

 

Sorry to break it to you but I think he has the problem, definitely not you.

[motive2002]

Don't give yourself hang-ups just because your ex was unadventurous and, from what I'm reading, lousy in bed.

 

God damn Sedge, I cant wait for you to meet someone else and leave this stupid bass player behind forever!!!!!

[Kamille]

GT, I don't know how NOT to let him affect my life. If I could just stop loving him, I would. If I could stop thinking about him, I would. But I can't seem to figure out how. My brain is constantly screaming at me that if I had just been good enough, sexy enough, thin enough, whatever enough, maybe he could have loved me -- but I wasn't, so he didn't.

 

You know what just struck me the most about your original post Sedgwick? Just how much you turned to an unresponsive man to make you complete - before he even broke up with you. Meaning, you felt you weren't good enough, sexy enough, thin enough, whatever enough even while you were with him. Turns out, the guy was an emotionally unresponsive a"3 who had no qualms about crushing you further.

 

I'll try to explain. You allowed him to make you feel guilty. Had any exes of mine shown so little interest in receiving oral, I would have likely turned the whole thing into a joke.

 

If I had asked someone to talk to me in bed and they told me they weren't as good with words as I was, i wouldn't have taken that as insult, but as a compliment: I would have then proceeded to try and coach them (joking as always).

 

If my partner never wanted to be on top, well, that could be a dealbreaker for me. Certainly, if my partner showed as little sexual enthusiasm as your ex did, I wouldn't assume there was something wrong with me... I would assume there was something wrong with them or minimally, that we clearly weren't sexually compatible.

 

Something made you respond to all this by internalizing it and taking it personally, so that when he walked away, it confirmed your worst fears about yourself. Sedg, how was your childhood? How were you doing before he came along?

[sedgwick]

Kamille: you're one of many on here we have asked me about my childhood. The brief recap is that it was okay, some good stuff, some bad stuff. I went to school in a very small rural town where there was no "gifted and talented" program or any advanced classes, and I was reading at a high school level when I was seven, so I was definitely bored and unpopular! Had an eating disorder from ages 13-33; when I met Joe I was 35 and had just done two years of intensive therapy for the ED and was feeling better than I'd ever felt in my life. I'd found bellydance, and while we were together I sold my first book. I was really happy and finally had some self-confidence. I thought the fact that I was finally in a successful, peaceful relationship was a sign I'd gotten a lot better. I felt like I was a better partner to him than I'd ever been to anyone; I worked hard to treat him well and to be kind, compassionate, giving, and understanding. I wanted so badly to make his life a more beautiful, passionate place, a place filled with laughter and joy and unconditional love. I have never loved anyone better than I loved him.

 

But then he left me even more cruelly and abruptly than anybody ever left me when I was crazy, and it all just came crashing down. I feel like I can do all the work in the world on myself but I'll still never be good enough for anybody to love. He reinforced that big time. I worked SO hard with my therapist on, "I think this guy likes me, I think I can trust him, help me lose my fear of trusting people," etc., and she said, "He sounds like a good man. He sounds like a good person to try trusting." So, yeah, we see how that turned out. I couldn't trust anyone now if I wanted to. He took that with him, like he took my sexuality.

 

Road_To_Joy, thank you SO much for your kind words. I want to think I'm a good and interesting person, and I'm trying to slowly claw my way back to that. I would love it if there was someone out there who could want what I have to give, and to think you're out there existing somewhere brings me comfort. I really appreciate that.

[motive2002]

Stop blaming yourself for his actions!! You cannot control what other people do or think... you may only influence it.

 

You are more than worthy of someone else's love. You deserve to be with someone you can trust. You WILL meet someone you can open your heart to, and you'll look back and wonder what the hell you were doing spending 2 years pining over a smelly bass player.

 

I still have my recent ex on a bit of a pedestal, but that's because she WAS good in bed. Becasue she WAS attentive and did nice things for me. She just liked my best friend better and decided to turn my whole universe upside down. The point is I know I will get over it. I am making an effort to move on.

 

Being single and dating is like traversing a mine field. When you've got that to look forward to AND your stuck pining over an ex progress will be almost non-existent. There will be bumps in the road.. but you have to go out and make the most of it.

 

Love YOURSELF! You are an amazing person. One man cannot change how awesome you are. I don't care who it is.

[sedgwick]

Thanks guys. I'd love to date again in theory, but I *NEVER* get flirted with or asked out. Literally never. It just simply doesn't happen. The only reason I was with Joe was that I made the first move. I really had to work to get him to look up from his bass and notice I existed. I just don't have the energy to do that again, and I'm not attracted to anyone but him anyway. But I'm telling you, I could stand in the middle of a field of men and not get asked out, seriously (well, maybe by a drunk one, or one looking for a green card.) This is part of the reason I feel so unattractive. My friends are always trying to give me the "It's because you're so vibrant and passionate and blah blah blah that they're intimidated blah blah," but I think they just say that because they're my friends. I mean, I *am* covered in tattoos and have dreadlocks, so yeah, I can see where the "vibrant" thing might be true simply in terms of the fact that there's a lot of color on me and I have funky hair, and I *am* passionate about stuff (I can dork on books and film and dance until people's eyes roll back in their heads), but I don't think I'm intimidating at all. Really, I'm just a big dork, but I guess I'm not, like, a CUTE dork, because honest to Christ guys simply do not approach me, EVER. It really does feel like Joe took all my mojo with him, or maybe it's just because I'm not skinny. Probably some combination of both.

[motive2002]

Stop being down on yourself. I seen a pic of you about a year ago. I'd ask you out.

[Kamille]

when I met Joe I was 35 and had just done two years of intensive therapy for the ED and was feeling better than I'd ever felt in my life. I'd found bellydance, and while we were together I sold my first book. I was really happy and finally had some self-confidence. I thought the fact that I was finally in a successful, peaceful relationship was a sign I'd gotten a lot better.

 

No, the fact that you were writing a book, out of your eating disorder and finding activities that you love were the sign that you were doing a whole lot better.

Nowhere in what you've posted here have you ever mentioned anything about what Joe brought to you and how he contributed to your relationship. What did he bring to the table?

 

 

I felt like I was a better partner to him than I'd ever been to anyone; I worked hard to treat him well and to be kind, compassionate, giving, and understanding. I wanted so badly to make his life a more beautiful, passionate place, a place filled with laughter and joy and unconditional love. I have never loved anyone better than I loved him.

 

That was all you. What did he bring to the relationship? What made him worthy of this love? What made you decide to trust him so much that he became the source of your self-worth?

 

But then he left me even more cruelly and abruptly than anybody ever left me when I was crazy, and it all just came crashing down. I feel like I can do all the work in the world on myself but I'll still never be good enough for anybody to love. He reinforced that big time.

 

Yes, my point exactly: his actions reinforced your own worst fears about yourself. But, as lame as he sounds, I'll wager that it's not what he intended to do. Again, all this has very little to do with Joe the real man and a lot more to do with your relationship with yourself.

 

I hope one day you start to believe your friends and Motive: friends don't lie Sedg. They see the beauty, love and life in you. They know you are loveable. Trust and believe them.

[sedgwick]

[/b] What did he bring to the relationship? What made him worthy of this love? What made you decide to trust him so much that he became the source of your self-worth?

 

He brought HIMSELF, and he was all I ever wanted. He's beautiful and sweet and smart and funny and insanely talented, and I was so proud to be by his side. As for why I decided to trust him, it was because he said I could. He told me often how important honesty was to him, and how he would always be honest with me. I told him in the beginning that if he had any reservations, to get out then, because the worst thing I could imagine was being abruptly left and I couldn't handle it if he ever did that to me. It was all, no, no, you can trust me, I'll never lie to you. Fast forward a year, and one morning I guess he suddenly realized I wasn't a musician (why didn't he tell me from the start that this was important? I do not know) and he walked out the door and I never saw him again. End of relationship, end of knowing each other, end of story.

 

I thought he was the one person who would never leave me for being inadequate -- he used to tell me all the time how "amazing" I was, and how he'd never felt the kind of connection with anyone he felt with me. And then one day I wasn't even worth knowing, because I didn't have the exact same career as his. I really don't know how you ever get over something like that.

[boldjack]

Well, Sedgewick, I don't know what you look like, and don't think that has much bearing here. You are an accomplished woman, an honest and caring person, and an open-minded and responsive partner. What else would a man want? Your exbf is a fool. You are the "better half", of that relationship, and deserve a "better half", in the next one. Good Luck

[Els]

No matter how good we are, there will always be people who won't appreciate it or will find fault with it. Almost any man would be thrilled at the thought of having a woman who genuinely loved giving oral and strives to improve her skills... luck just had it that this particular one did not.

 

I once had an ex like that. I loved giving oral, experimenting with kinky stuff, fulfilling a man's fantasies, sharing porn together to get new ideas. He'd MAYBE just sit there and let me pleasure him once a week or so when he wasn't engrossed in his video games. He turned down RECEIVING oral almost every time I suggested it! I pleaded and cajoled and tried to get him to talk to me about it. No dice. Sexual self-esteem shot through the floor. Now I realize that he was LUCKY to have had a girl like me, especially in my conservative society, most men would consider themselves lucky too!

 

Fortunately, now I'm with someone who actually appreciates my effort, enthusiasm and love for new sexual experiences, instead of putting them down. You should consider yourself fortunate too.

[Kamille]

Hmmm, interesting Elswyth - sounds like your ex was addicted to videogames much like Sedg's ex was addicted to playing music. In other words: emotionnally unavailable men. No amount of unconditional love could bring these men to love you.

 

Sedg, I've been thinking about your post, and what I have to say might sound harsh, but I really don't mean it in a harsh way. I just hope there is a way to help you see the situation differently.

 

It has to do with the idea of unconditional love, which you were and are still willing to offer him. The archetype of unconditional love is the love of a mother for her children. It is, by definition, a love that is given without expectations of returns. It suggests a human so complete in and of themselves that they can love in spite of children growing up, messing up, leaving the home, etc.

 

Sedg, your love was conditional. You relied on him as your source of self-esteem. You needed him to complete you. You loved yourself because of the love you were giving him. In other words, you couldn't give unconditional love because you needed him to love yourself.

 

You put him in charge of your destiny - a man who, by your admission in the OP of this thread, made you feel small and unattractive EVEN BEFORE he left.

 

Now, don't think I am an apologist of unconditional love. Unconditional love has been known to spoil children, enable bad habits, foster addictions. I think love between adults should be conditional, especially in the first few years of the relationship. That's how healthy relationships are built in my opinion: there needs to be a healthy balance between what each partner brings to the well-being of the other. Here you were, ready to love him the way you wanted to be loved when he found excuse after excuse to disengage with you.

 

I think the biggest issue you are facing since the break up is how enmeshed your perception of yourselves were based on this relationship. It also sounds like what you liked about the relationship was all your own doing. You loved him because of who he was. Great. I love Obama for who he is, it doesn't mean we're in a relationship together. Relationships are about a lot more then who the person is: they're about how two people interact with each other, compatibility. From what you wrote here, you did 90% of the work in your relationship. You gave him unconditional love when that wasn't something he even asked for.

[Els]

Hmmm, interesting Elswyth - sounds like your ex was addicted to videogames much like Sedg's ex was addicted to playing music. In other words: emotionnally unavailable men. No amount of unconditional love could bring these men to love you.

 

Well... I think he did 'love' me, in the way that he knew. He did try to accommodate me with his rigorous video game-playing routine; tried his best to be caring and spend time with me and all that. But sex... to him, video games totally trump sex, he wouldn't understand why anyone would put sex as anywhere near a priority. He'd rather spend our free time going to a nice dinner than having sex. Which I believe many women might want... but not me.

[Kamille]

Well... I think he did 'love' me, in the way that he knew. He did try to accommodate me with his rigorous video game-playing routine; tried his best to be caring and spend time with me and all that. But sex... to him, video games totally trump sex, he wouldn't understand why anyone would put sex as anywhere near a priority. He'd rather spend our free time going to a nice dinner than having sex. Which I believe many women might want... but not me.

 

Right! thanks for pointing that out Elswyth. I did say the wrong thing.

 

Sedg's ex probably also loved her, but was too weak to sustain a relationship with anyone, even one where he was offered so much love and care. It never seemed to me like he was capable of returning the intensity of her love for him.

[Els]

Right! thanks for pointing that out Elswyth. I did say the wrong thing.

 

Sedg's ex probably also loved her, but was too weak to sustain a relationship with anyone, even one where he was offered so much love and care. It never seemed to me like he was capable of returning the intensity of her love for him.

 

Yes! I totally agree with that!

 

To, out of the blue, dump someone just because she doesn't play music (which was the case all along!) just smacks of shallowness.

[PinkToes]

Kamille, very wise words. Sedg, he left because he didn't want to stay and make it work. It had nothing to do with your not being a musician, or he would have discussed that with you before he checked out. And it also had nothing to do with any deficiency on your part. It was his stuff.

 

My ex made a whole lot of promises too, and he broke them in the end. That hurts. But I know he did the best he could. I hate it, but I understand it. And I know his leaving had nothing to do with what kind of partner I was. I loved him unconditionally. I still do. But he just couldn't hold up his end of the deal. Neither could yours.

 

You can love him and see the good in him and miss him dearly, but the fatal flaw was his: He made promises he couldn't keep, and decided to pretend it was all your fault. For all of his good traits, that's just plain cruel. It's not about you. Never was.

[sedgwick]

Thanks, guys. Lots of food for thought here. I don't know why it's so hard for me to comprehend, after two years, that the person I loved so much could also be so shallow and cruel. He seemed like such a sweet, amazing, sensitive person, it just seems like if someone so wonderful would leave me so callously it must have been my fault. I understand that's some seriously flawed logic, but still, it's hard to get it through my head.

 

I really do want to move on after all this time, but I barely leave my apartment. I'm hard at work on a book right now, so I'm pretty much just holed up here writing. Today I left my apartment to get a few things at the deli on the corner and then came straight home. Yesterday I left to buy a computer chair and take care of some health insurance stuff, then came straight home. I know I need more of a life than this, I really do. I have dance class in an hour and I'm sitting here all freaked out about it because I feel too fat and ugly to ride there on my bike and then have to look at myself in the mirror. I wasn't this way before Joe, and I don't want to be this way anymore. Two years is too long, but I feel like for as long as he's not speaking to me I should continue to punish myself. It's like I need him to tell me it's okay to go out and live, but all I get from him is silence. And yet, still, I love him without question. If the only way I can make him happy is by staying away, I'll stay away. I'll give him whatever I can. It just sucks that all he wants is my absence.

 

He called me a year ago, just to -- it would seem -- talk about himself and his music. The last time we spoke was a year before that, and the conversation ended with me sobbing and him, very coldly, saying, "I can't believe that you of all people don't realize things change." (Whatever that was supposed to mean.) My last words to him were, "You have my unconditional love, always," and his to me were, "Sorry I couldn't give you what you want." He sounded almost like a robot when he said them, a very annoyed robot. Like all he wanted was for me to get off the phone and leave him alone forever.

 

So then, a year later, when he called me out of the blue, he opened the conversation with, "Hi! I'm just sitting here in a hotel room in Kansas, just played a show, thought I'd stop being such a recluse and call some people I hadn't talked to in a long time, and you were first on the list!" I asked him what he wanted to talk to me about, and he launched into how his life and his music were going. I told him I loved him very much but couldn't be his friend, and that it was all or nothing. He said, "I can't give all, we've talked about this." I reiterated that he had my unconditional love, always, and hung up the phone.

 

I truly thought I might hear from him again, that maybe I might have shaken some sense into him, but it's been over a year now and I haven't heard a peep. I dream of him realizing what he lost and missing me, but as long as there's a stringed instrument on the planet, I doubt he ever will. I just want to give up this stupid hope and this conviction that he's the love of my life and I'll never be attracted to anyone again.

 

Elswyth, I'm so sorry for what you went through, and I understand COMPLETELY. When I read your story, it seems so obvious that it was totally his problem and had nothing to do with you, but for some reason I have trouble translating that realization to my own situation. Did you ever see that episode of the show Intervention about the video game addict guy? It's on the AETV website. His name was Peter. If you haven't watched it, you should -- I'd be really interested to know if he resembles your ex. I'm so glad you're with someone else now who can appreciate you. I dream of finding that for myself someday, and I hope eventually I can stop telling myself I'm too fat to have it.

[Kamille]

Hmmm... Sedg, you're making it about Joe again. This isn't about him.

 

Not at all.

 

This is about you.

 

About your relationship to yourself.

 

About your well-being.

 

About your self-esteem.

 

 

 

Let me ask you this:

 

What if Joe came back? Would that really make you feel better about yourself? Why?

 

Do you realize that you would be asking an incredible lot of him? To be your source of self-esteem and well-being?

 

Don't you think your life and relationships would be better if you worked on providing that for yourself?

[sedgwick]

Kamille, I felt really good about myself until Joe. Slowly, over the time we were together, he managed to erode my self-esteem. I am trying to build it back up.

 

My sources of self-esteem at this point are my book, my dance, my film, my activism, my clothing design -- the things I do. I do feel proud of those things and happy about them. I'm not an empty vessel waiting around for a man to give me something to do and feel. I do not need him to fulfill me, but I'd love to have him back. I miss his presence, but I have stood up for myself with him and told him I won't accept whatever crumbs he gives me just to have him in my life. And it's true, I won't. I'm an NC warrior with this dude, dammit.

[tinke]

sedgwick, it is almost painful to read your posts knowing that you are still trying to sort things out. At some point, I wish you can just feel that it is not worth the energy, he is not back and things have not changed in the near two yrs.

 

You owe it to yourself to try hard to let it go. I realize it is easy to say, but, you are allowing an absent person to dictate your feelings. It's time to embrace yourself and what YOU want in life. He is just not worth all the analysis!

[sedgwick]

Tinke, I know...I really should get over him, but I still think about him every minute. Today I got an email announcing a colleague's engagement that ended, "Never stop believing in love," and I started crying right there in the coffeeshop. I miss him so much, and when I read about how this woman is marrying the "love of her life," I was reminded that the love of my life doesn't want to know me. I would be foolish to think he's not in another relationship now or hasn't been in the last two years, and it kills me. I wonder if he's found the love of his life and what she's got that I haven't.

 

I know this sounds crazy, but the day he left me, he said, "You'll find someone else," and I said "No, I won't. I told you I'd always love you, and I meant it." He was so big on honesty honesty honesty, and in the end he lied. Well, I was honest, and for some reason I feel the need to continue to be. I know I'm an idiot to still keep hoping he'll someday come back, when he has no doubt forgotten all about me. But I promised, y'know? Just because the love of my life doesn't want to know me doesn't mean he's not still the love of my life. I try to find joy in the fact that I'm in love even though the person I love doesn't give a sh*t. And yes, I know how ridiculous that sounds.

 

There's a film festival tonight I'd really like to go to, but I just looked at myself in the mirror and I feel like I'm way too fat. I keep putting my life on hold until I lose weight, telling myself that if I'm ever attractive enough to go out, I will.

 

What's so f*cked up is that yesterday I was in the pharmacy buying allergy meds and a guy actually stopped and said, "Wow, you look good." And over the weekend I was shopping for fabric and a man stopped on the sidewalk to tell me I was beautiful. They were both older men, and I don't really remember what they looked like, but they actually stopped to say that to me, and all I could do was tell myself their opinions didn't matter because they weren't Joe. If I'm beautiful, why didn't he want me? If I was anything special, wouldn't he have stayed?

 

Gahhhh. The guy crushed me, that's for damn sure. All I can do is hope that maybe, two years from now, it hurts a little less, and I can go a few minutes without thinking about him.