Athena Posted July 4, 2009 Posted July 4, 2009 Now I am a very prideful man and have never experienced anything like this and you can imagine how crushed I am. Tell me, Allot, before when you cheated on your previous wives, do you now recognize the pain they must of gone through (like this pain you are feeling having experienced being cheated on). I ask because I am married to a wonderful man, whom I loved, and who loves me dearly, but he has cheated several times during our M, and he had also been married before, and cheated several times in that M too... so I would like to hear your opinion -- do you think my H would do well to experience the pain of being cheated on? Because I am beginning to feel that he lacks natural empathy -- that he only feels His Own Pain, but nobody else's... which is why he thinks nothing of cheating again and again... Now, how does it feel to be cheated on? Does it make you want to never cheat on a woman again? or do you just feel angered that someone dared to cheat on YOU? I am trying to understand how my H would react if put into your situation... whether that would make him change his ways, because nothing else has. I would appreciate any input you can share with me.
Athena Posted July 4, 2009 Posted July 4, 2009 I appreciate your cander and think you are accurate in your assessment of me. I do want you to know that we really are both very well respected by our families and friends and people think that we are a perfect couple that is very much in love and I feel that we both still strongly love each other too. I think this is yet another reason why this is so hard for me. Allot, take this incident as a Wake-Up call that you need to Change something! Carrying on the way you have like in your last two marriages is just going to bring you those same results. Try to do things differently. My advice is count your blessings that you have a wonderful wife, and commit to a basis of TRUTH telling.... both of you. Don't just 'not lie' from now on, be open and truthful with each other, that is: Truthful about facts (where you are what you are doing) but Open as well: talking about your feelings and emotions... That way you will strengthen the marriage you have.
whichwayisup Posted July 4, 2009 Posted July 4, 2009 If you feel it could help both of you by her reading and maybe posting as well, then do it. My only concern is, just from seeing other couples both post here, it can cause some other problems, so really think first if you want her to read. Can she handle the heat that some throw around on here? Anyway, if you two truly love eachother, then try to work it out. Do marriage counselling, start fresh in the sense of new boundries when it comes to other people outside of your marriage. Put eachother first.
Mr. Lucky Posted July 5, 2009 Posted July 5, 2009 #2 I'm sure that it will not come as a surprise to any of you but yes, both of my previous marriages ended due to infedelity on my part and so did hers. We actually cheated with each other. Having read that, no other part of your story is the least bit surprising to me. Why would you think she'd be bound by her commitment to you when NEITHER of you felt that bond was important in your previous marriages? #3 No, I do not beleive that she has confessed the whole truth to me about the Vegas trip and that is seriously bothering me. Talk about reaping what you sow.... Mr. Lucky
BUENG1 Posted July 5, 2009 Posted July 5, 2009 WOW... The advice here seems to be all over the page. Fortunately, I seem to be able to decifer which opinions seem to be educated and which ones seem to just be hot air. #1 I have told her about my infidelities prior to our marriage. They were very hurtful for her and we are trying to save our marriage together by getting everything out on the table. #2 I'm sure that it will not come as a surprise to any of you but yes, both of my previous marriages ended due to infedelity on my part and so did hers. We actually cheated with each other. #3 No, I do not beleive that she has confessed the whole truth to me about the Vegas trip and that is seriously bothering me. #4 She is back at home and we are doing very good considering but the pain still haunts me bad. She has agreed to counselling and wants to get past this as bad as I do. We both agree that we are cheaters and that the whole cheating thing is very destructive and a road paved with pure misery and we both want to get off of that road and be good spouses and parents from now on. I just don't know if it will ever be the same as before and whether or not I can ever really trust her like I did before. The whole thing is like a bad nightmare. Do you think if you had never cheated, you would consider reconciliation? How would things be different, then how you are handling things now? I don't think guilt is a good enough reason to stay in a marriage. You can solve your problems with infidelity all on your own.
Author allotapride Posted July 5, 2009 Author Posted July 5, 2009 Athena... I absolutely do not think that anyone cheating at anytime can be beneficial whatsoever to a relationship. I am very very regretful for my actions in the past and when I cheated on my now wife, I was living with a roommate and dating her. When I decided to move in with her I promised myself that I would never ever cheat on her no matter what. She was unaware that I had cheated on her before anyway and this was just a promise to myself that those days were over for me and that I wanted a fresh start on a clean slate without having the guilt of knowing when I snuggled up to her at night that I had cheated on her. As I stated before, the only thing that comes out of cheating is a road paved with misery and demons. Remember that two wrongs do not make a right and when someone is a cheater they have to decide that they are ready to get off of that destructive path on their own and not be because someone cheated on them and tried to teach them a leson. This could backfire on you and wound up causing you your marriage and furher more leaving you with the feeling that you are now no better than him. He has to decide to stop, period, like I did. Bueng1... I cannot say what I would have done if I had never cheated on her because I always said that if she ever did I would be gone no questions asked and look at me now. You never know what you would really do until you are put in that situation. Cheating is one of the worst things that you could ever do to someone that loves you and as you can see I am trying to do everything I can to save my marriage. I am not proud of cheating on her earlier on during our dating phase but I do not know if this current situation would be any easier for me to deal with or not deal with because I did. I'm hurt and I'm sad and I wish to god it would have never happened. I hope that we can survive it and that is where my focus is. We are taking it day by day and so far so good.
Athena Posted July 5, 2009 Posted July 5, 2009 Put your pride aside, and give her just this one chance... just because YOU were ready to make the commitment and the decision never to cheat again, doesn't mean that she was ready at the exact same time as you. Do your best both of you, to make your M work. You have love, and you both know you are both capable of hurting each other with infidelity, so therefore you must both make a pact and work towards total honesty from here on out. I think you can recover.
jnj express Posted July 5, 2009 Posted July 5, 2009 setting aside your infidelities, lets look at your situation. She is 20-some yrs younger than you, comes from a generation that for many they think sex is fulfilling a physical need like eating, They do not think of vows the same way as older generations do, such as your generation. To you i believe you think sex is somewhat sacred and should only be shared as a married couple with each other, She may not hold these views. She took off to vegas with another man 10 months into the mge. Self esteem used as an excuse---that is baloney, unless you were making her feel terrible about herself why would she have low self esteem, she is in a good mge., treated respectfully, and taken care of properly by her H., so what is causing the low esteem, and why did she not come to you to discuss the problem if there was one. She knew what she was doing ---The 2 of them set up their tryst, she decieved you every step of the way, she looked you right in the face and led you to believe everything was normal and fine, as she planned to give herself to another man in a city she had to get on a plane to go to. You are never going to be able to trust her again. She doesn't trust you----All the 2 of you are going to do if you stay married are beat each other up emotionally. Get out while there are no new kids.
Mr. Lucky Posted July 5, 2009 Posted July 5, 2009 Cheating is one of the worst things that you could ever do to someone that loves you and as you can see I am trying to do everything I can to save my marriage. Allotapride, if you really believe that statement to be true, then wouldn't it be important to understand why you've cheated at some point in all 3 marriages? And been cheated on all 3 times? There's a faulty dynamic at work there that would best be addressed in IC. You seem to have a tendency towards self-destructive (at least in the relationship sense) behavior... Mr. Lucky
Author allotapride Posted July 5, 2009 Author Posted July 5, 2009 I do want to start off by saying that reading all of your posts to this topic have been very interesting to me. Some of them are well educated responses and some should think before they speak. My husband and I are now a complete open book with each other now with the current situation at hand. With us being an open book with each other this has helped both of us open up and tell the complete Truth about everything that we have done and gone though during our relationship together. I say relationship for the affair that he had before we were married. I was very pleased to see that some of you pointed out to him that it doesn’t matter if the affair was before or after rings were placed on each other because he seemed to think that is was more than ok because of the fact that we weren’t married yet. I completely disagree with this. I know what I’ve done was completely wrong and extremely disrespectful to my husband and our family and I speak from my heart when I say how deeply sorry I am. To let you all know that I’ve told the entire truth in this because I do not want to have anything on my chest about this and I want to be open and fix my marriage. I’ve never cheated on him before this (neither before or after we were married) and I will never cheat again. I’ve learned after years of traveling down a road in my life that never got me anywhere but with pain in my heart and never feeling like a true human. I know that this road doesn’t exist for me anymore, No I’m not just saying all of this to save my marriage I’m saying this whether we are going to be together or not I can’t be that person anymore. I would like to applaud everyone for noticing and pointing out to my husband that he is Narcissistic. I’ve been telling him this for years and he never saw it before. During our recent conversations until last night he repeatedly said that his affairs weren’t anything like mine that they didn’t compare because of when they were. Last night I explained to him how serious we have always been with each other since we met and everything we gave up for us to be together. He now realizes that when he had his affairs that they are just as wrong as mine was regardless of the time frame. His Ego and Pride has always been an issue in our everyday living but he has said that it will all change now. (I’m hopeful) I have several feelings about his plan to never tell me about his affairs but when I had an affair he thought by him coming clean on what he had done would just hurt me and that is the only reason he came clean on his part. He has admitted that the only reason he cheated on me was because I didn’t pay the correct amount of attention to him at that moment. Therefore for him to feel better about himself he would just find some attention. I respect my husband and I respect my marriage but at the time of my affair I didn’t respect myself. This is not a cop out for what I did! I truly didn’t respect myself and when one doesn’t respect themselves then what tends to happen is they think in only one direction and never think about others around them, because they just don’t care. We have been working on our relationship and will continue too, we are planning on going to a MC and won’t give up on this marriage. We both agreed that we have both wronged this relationship but are both willing to give us another try. We are truly in love with each other and always have been. I do think that this will strengthen our relationship with one another and we will get past this time in our lives. I’m deeply sorry for what I have done, there is not any good reason for what I’ve done. I can tell you that two wrongs don’t make a right and we will get the appropriate amount of help to fix our marriage. All of your comments have really helped us and by reading an outsiders view on this has opened several different doors of communication for us.
lkjh Posted July 5, 2009 Posted July 5, 2009 Did I miss something? Did your wife admit fully to the affair?
Mr. Lucky Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 Did I miss something? Did your wife admit fully to the affair? It would seem that the OP has followed through on his idea to let his wife read what he had posted and the responses. The post above yours is from his wife. AoP and Wife - I applaud your honesty with each other. People cheat for a lot of reasons, none justified and many based on self-respect as Mrs. AoP stated. I hope you two start MC - sounds like you have a lot to talk about. Keep us posted... Mr. Lucky
Athena Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 Mr. Allot, next time you feel neglected by your wife, TELL her... and allow her to fulfill your needs, and Mrs. Allot, same for you -- give your husband a chance to be the man who woos you. You both need to Give Each Other The Benefit of The Doubt -- in other words, always think the best, not the worst case scenario, of each other. This will strengthen your relationship. Your pride, Mr. Allot, should be secondary to how your wife is feeling... (and vice versa) in other words, when in an argument, try not to Win at the expense of crushing the other one's feelings. Be kind to one another. You are ON EACH OTHER'S SIDE -- part of the Same Team... do not set out to Destroy one another just because you can. Also, in front of his male buddies, or her girl friends, do not cut each other down to 'score' points. Always think and say positive things about each other. Stay away from harsh words, even those supposedly 'spoken in jest' -- they hurt. You will be doing Everything to Better your relationship, and those hurtful words do not belong in here. Each of you Give 100% to the marriage -- don't aim for that b.s. 50/50... you both give the best of yourselves at all times. Gratefully! Lovingly! This is not a competition to see who can screw the other one over. Good Luck. Keep this thread updated. Tell us what works and how you are doing. A lot of people can learn from you as you go through this.
Dexter Morgan Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 After 3 years of dating and only 10 months of marriage, I just found out that my wife went to Vegas this past weekend with another man. WOW!!!! That is exactly what I said. History... I am in my early 40's and she is in her mid 20's. This is my third marriage and her second. I have two kids from a previous marriage and she has one. red flag #1, you are much older than her. When she is a hot 40 year old in her prime, you are going to start looking like someone's grandfather. not good. people never look to the future when they say that age is just a number. I cheated on her without her knowledge a couple of times during our dating period and have no reason to believe that she ever did on me. She stated that she was beginning to feel like she had low self esteem and a guy she met through her job began to tell her how pretty she was and it made her feel good. well that isn't an excuse whatsoever. cheating is cheating and there IS no excuse for it. but since you already cheated on her a few times, maybe you can see why she has low self-esteem?? I know you say she doesn't know, but cheating WILL affect a relationship one way or another. And if you wanted to throw her out for cheating....then what do you think YOUR consequences should be for you cheating on her? She then stated that he painted a pefect picture of a good time that the two of them could have in Vegas and after saying no several times, she finally gave in. She stated that the purpose of the trip was to get to know each other better. She states that after she arrived at the room and we talked on the phone for two hours that she realized that she had made a huge mistake and wanted to come home. She stated that the one and a half days was dissappointing and that she never was intimate with him. like hell she wasn't intimate with him. When I called her the next day and told her that I had discovered that she was there with another man, she said that she told him about it and told him to get out. LOL, ya, sure she did. She cheats, then has the nerve to take the high road and try to kick out a guy that more than likely paid for the room and/or the entire trip. don't get me wrong, the guy is a scumbag because I assume he knew you were married....but its rich when cheaters take the high road. I can also tell you that I have never loved a woman like I love this one and while my heart wants to realize that people make mistakes and wants to give her another chance, my pride wants her to pay for her actions with a divorce and never seeing me again. well, you really HAVE to give her another chance. otherwise you'd be a hypocrite. YOU CHEATED first. We have talked long and hard about this for the last four days, she has changed her cell number and quit her job. She says that she will take how ever long it takes to prove to me that she is sorry for her mistake and that she loves me, wants me and will never make the same mistake again. ok....so here she is making all these concessions to you, all the while not realizing that YOU are a cheater too. So you are letting her think she is this terrible person and she will be busting her ass to prove to you she isn't a cheater. ok....so you cheat, get away with it, and think you have the right to let her believe she is the only one that needs to be proving something here? I think you need to come clean, ask for her forgiveness, and tell her that YOU ALSO need to work on things for her. I'm at a lost.... She is doing everything that I have asked her to do to prove to me that she still wants me and this marriage but when I look at her it hurts so bad knowing what she did to me and I am not sure that I can ever actually forgive her. uh, yet you cheated on her first. I tell myself that I did not deserve this and can do better with someone else that would not cheat on me. are you f#####g kidding us here???? YOU CHEATED ON HER TOO!!! I suppose you think she deserved to be cheated on by you, even though she does not know it, and that she can't do better than be with someone that also cheats?? Some say that this may make our marriage stronger than before but I am not sure that I can live with the disrespect and dishonor that she has brought on me, our marriage, our kids and our family. Thoughts? if you are going to keep your little secret, while thinking she should be bending over backwards for you....thats a little off kilter and unfair. YOU need to work on YOUR issues as well. But something tells me you are going to hold this over her all the while she has NO IDEA that you cheated on her first. I don't care if you were married when you did it or not. You are trying to take a high road here when you don't have a car with the horsepower yourself. While I'd normally say "dump the cheating b!tch", I think you'd be a hypocrite to do so. So I think you need to forgive her, because afterall, YOU DID THE SAME, and did it more than once according to yourself. OR come clean and tell her that you need to be forgiven yourself. But if you divorce her while trying to act like you did no wrong yourself, then its just plain sh#tty.
Dexter Morgan Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 Okay, i'll take that... The infidelities on my part were before we were married and were just dating. I have confessed these infidelities with her in our recent talks and it was very hurtful for her to learn but again it was before we exchanged vows. "I cheated on her without her knowledge a couple of times during our dating period and have no reason to believe that she ever did on me." so you are to have us believe that she does know now just recently? i don't think so. otherwise you would have told us about how she would be hurt and expecting you to deal with your issues as well. but if I were to give you the benefit of the doubt with what you NOW say, what did she say about your cheating? Is she making similar demands of you in the way of full disclosure, things like that? hell, if anything, you kept her in the dark and let her marry you without knowing what you are.
Dexter Morgan Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 WOW... The advice here seems to be all over the page. Fortunately, I seem to be able to decifer which opinions seem to be educated and which ones seem to just be hot air. #1 I have told her about my infidelities prior to our marriage. They were very hurtful for her and we are trying to save our marriage together by getting everything out on the table. #2 I'm sure that it will not come as a surprise to any of you but yes, both of my previous marriages ended due to infedelity on my part and so did hers. We actually cheated with each other. #3 No, I do not beleive that she has confessed the whole truth to me about the Vegas trip and that is seriously bothering me. #4 She is back at home and we are doing very good considering but the pain still haunts me bad. She has agreed to counselling and wants to get past this as bad as I do. We both agree that we are cheaters and that the whole cheating thing is very destructive and a road paved with pure misery and we both want to get off of that road and be good spouses and parents from now on. I just don't know if it will ever be the same as before and whether or not I can ever really trust her like I did before. The whole thing is like a bad nightmare. Ok, having said all of that, my advice is this. do WHATEVER YOU CAN to stay married. that way you'll be saving 2 other people in the world from future headaches.
Dexter Morgan Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 I do want to start off by saying that reading all of your posts to this topic have been very interesting to me. Some of them are well educated responses and some should think before they speak. some should think before they speak? hmmm...I was thinking some people should think before they ACT.
icepop Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 This is probably the luckiest thing that ever happened to you. If you didnt have this crisis early on and have to deal with it, it would have surfaced sooner or later. Now you have the opportunity to try to mend it together with a good MC. And to see if you really should be married to one another. While I agree with all of jj's post here, the above captioned part definitely struck a chord with me, particularly seeing a counselor to determine if you should be married to one another or even married at all. It appears that you have been a serial cheater AOP and this to me is a character flaw. Not because it happened once, but because you have repeatedly done it. It appears to me that you have not done the heavy lifting work a relationship requires, aka resorting to the grass is always greener when the going gets tough. Your marriage will never be the same. Will it be better ? Potentially but, the hard work you always needed to do is now at hand.
2sure Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 I am not sure that I can live with the disrespect and dishonor that she has brought on me, our marriage, our kids and our family. Thoughts? Think about why you cheated on her. ..... OK. THATS why she cheated on you. It isnt your fault. No one should understand more than you that she did it...just because she wanted to and didnt think she would be caught. How does that affect your marriage, children, and families? You didnt trust her before she went, thats why you investigated. You have already done the same yourself...so what is different now?
sugarmomma Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 After 3 years of dating and only 10 months of marriage, I just found out that my wife went to Vegas this past weekend with another man. WOW!!!! That is exactly what I said. History... I am in my early 40's and she is in her mid 20's. This is my third marriage and her second. I have two kids from a previous marriage and she has one. Thoughts? Let me see if I get this... He has 2 other mariages where he cheated She has 1 other marriage where she cheated 3 years of dating (while also cheating on your spouses in your affair fog) He cheats while dating ( presumably not with his W at the time) They get married 10 months later She goes on a trip and he gets suspicious she's cheating and only fessed up because she got caught My Thoughts? They are both cheaters and deserve each other. I mean really, what did they expect? He wants to know if he will be the lucky one to betray his two previous wives and have a HAPPY marriage with this young tenderoni? NOT!! BTW, she's in her twenty and haven't even reached her prime? He will be sixty in 15 years and she will barely be 40? He might as well get out while the getting is good. No fun when the rabbit's got the gun!!!! She will not stay with you long term. She hasn't even gotten started yet. This marriage is a joke!!!!
Darth Vader Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 WOW... The advice here seems to be all over the page. Fortunately, I seem to be able to decifer which opinions seem to be educated and which ones seem to just be hot air. #1 I have told her about my infidelities prior to our marriage. They were very hurtful for her and we are trying to save our marriage together by getting everything out on the table. #2 I'm sure that it will not come as a surprise to any of you but yes, both of my previous marriages ended due to infedelity on my part and so did hers. We actually cheated with each other. #3 No, I do not beleive that she has confessed the whole truth to me about the Vegas trip and that is seriously bothering me. #4 She is back at home and we are doing very good considering but the pain still haunts me bad. She has agreed to counselling and wants to get past this as bad as I do. We both agree that we are cheaters and that the whole cheating thing is very destructive and a road paved with pure misery and we both want to get off of that road and be good spouses and parents from now on. I just don't know if it will ever be the same as before and whether or not I can ever really trust her like I did before. The whole thing is like a bad nightmare. #1 A nightmare that you both have equally inflicted upon prior spouses! #2 Now you are feeling the pain, as well as her, for being cheated on, so, you now know how your Ex's felt. Including all the damage you did to them! #3 She's probably not telling you everything, she may have rode her OM. It's called "Trickle Truth"! #4 You both belong together, after all, you're both cheaters! #5 What happens in Vegas, doesn't stay in Vegas! #6 None of these points (including this one) are hot air! #7 No, I'm not taking after David Letterman!
Athena Posted July 7, 2009 Posted July 7, 2009 Did you sleep with the man in LA? I think it would help us posters who assumed you did, when advising others in the future... please be honest, your turn to help us out here...(to sharpen our skills).
Dexter Morgan Posted July 7, 2009 Posted July 7, 2009 Did you sleep with the man in LA? I think it would help us posters who assumed you did, when advising others in the future... please be honest, your turn to help us out here...(to sharpen our skills). I don't think it was the Mrs writing that to begin with. He told us she had no knowledge of his cheating. And then we are to believe he all of a sudden told her after finding out she did? don't think so.
Author allotapride Posted July 8, 2009 Author Posted July 8, 2009 WOW... The responses continue to be all over the page and I can honestly say that I appreciate each and everyone one of them. I would first like to start off with an update on where we currently are with this situation. We are quickly coming up on two weeks now since this whole nightmare started. I can honestly tell you that each day has been filled with long talks and a lot of crying. One thing that we both have agreed on is that we still love each other very very much and we want to get through this. Last night was a particularly hard night because I was beginning to feel like this pain may be just too much to endure and that maybe my feelings were beginning to fade but after two hours of talking and crying it was very clear to me that my love for her is just extremely bruised and that I still love her very much. I have worked mostly on trying to be sensitive to the fact that what I did prior to our actual marriage was just as wrong and hurtful to her as if it had occurred yesterday. This is difficult for me as I continue to somewhat feel that her committed infidelity after our vows were exchaged is a worse offense but I care deeply for her feelings and see personally that her pain is real and should not be taken any more lightly that what I have done. We are scheduled to meet for our very first counseling session tomorrow night and she has confessed to me that she is very nervous about what all will be said and the feelings that will emerge. I on the other hand am looking forward to the session and hope that it is the beginning of saving our marriage. She still has not admitted to being intimate with the man she went to Vegas with and I want you to know that I still do not believe her. I'm not sure that it even really matters to me at this point because the one thing that I do know is that she planned a trip to Vegas with another man and that is hurtful enough to me. Since the question of whether or not we have children and families came up let me share this with you... We do have children... I have two teenagers from a previous marriage and she has a 9 y/o from a previous marriage. My wife sat down with my two teenagers the other night and explained to them that she was very sorry for what she had done and that she made a huge mistake. She told them that she loved them and would never hurt their dad or this family ever again. We elected not to tell the 9 y/o anything because she was away at her grandparents during the whole ordeal and never knew anything happened anyway. Her parents, my parents and a few of our friends are well aware of the situation and have been nothing but supportive and hopeful that we get through this, learn from our mistakes and stay married for ever. We are both very well aware that we are cheaters and that we both have a lot of work to do in trying to identify why we both have this character flaw and learn what we have to do to correct it. Cheating is a very selfish act that only leads to destruction and the ripple effect that reaches out and hurts a lot more people than just your spouse is incredible. Our level of desire for one another in a loving, caring and sexual manner seems to have not suffered very much as we are still very passionate with one another. I sincerely appreciate the positive and encouraging words that some of you have shared on this post recommending that we give this marriage another shot and learn from our mistakes. I also appreciate the opinions of the others that feel that we should cut our losses and move on because too much betrayal has occurred. I can tell you however that neither of us is ready to give up on our marriage or our family and we are determined to do what ever it takes to persevere. I believe that the key ingredient to the success of our marriage is that we still love one another and truly want to get through this and have our marriage be stronger than before as a result of all of this. The desire and love to stay together did not exist in our previous marriages and that one thing I do know must exist before we even begin to think about giving our marriage a chance of reconciliation. My wife truly did post the earlier posted thread and I am very proud of her for doing so. We are not on here to play games with each of you, we are real people with real feelings that have suffered a near fatal blow to our marriage and we were hoping that we could get some heart felt and sound advice on how to proceed. Thanks again to each of you for posting your comments whether or we agreed with them or not. Thanks
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