girlintwocities Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 Hi everyone.. I am new here and was very happy to find your forum. I've been in an interesting conundrum for some time.. to put it into perspective I guess some details are needed. I was married (separated now) to my husband in Cali - who does not know about a sexual affair with my MM but he does know I am in love with someone. I left my husband (and we are friends) because I didn't want to live in a lie. My MM is in his 60s; I am in my 30s. Ive never felt a stronger connection with someone ever - to say I am in love with this man is an understatement. I've been through enough in life to know it isn't for the "wrong reasons". My MM and I started doing work on the East Coast together last October, and he sent me interesting emails that sounded as though he was interested. I will spare you all the details but this was an exceedingly romantic relationship - we are both similar emotionally, similar intelligence levels, both PhDs, both do the same type of "community" work, love to travel and so on. I got an apartment on the East Coast and started spending most of my time there. The MM told me he was in love with me, and he'd never met anyone so deep into his DNA. We laugh together and love life in the same place (or so I thought). Around Christmas, he disappeared for about 2 weeks. No calls, emails etc.. I gave him a gift, he didnt even send me a card. That was weird. Now I know when he "goes home", he gets into his other life and really doesnt think much about me (though he says he does, Im not sure I believe it). Feb or so of this year, I moved into a new apartment in the city and began living there really full time. My MM moved into the place with me, but had to "go to his wife" a few times for various reasons. I started noticing some things he told me didn't seem accurate - and started snooping a bit on him. I found out he was still telling his wife he love her; finding time to go to Starbucks to phone her and so on; while telling me he was working on leaving her. By the way she is nearly his age; 2 biological grown children with her and 3 step children that are his - he left his first wife because the second one was "more attractive, smarter and overall a better deal" (or something to that affect - things he's said similarly about me). She is intelligent and attractive for her age. Im also convinced she knows something is "up". She asked him for hotel bills, and he convinced her that he was paying cash for the hotel -- she bought it. Someone at the place we do community work (we believe, no way for us to know for sure) emailed her that we were having an affair - she panicked a bit but said she believed him. One day about 3 months ago I gave him an ultimatum - go home and leave her, or dont come back. He left notes all over my apartment that he'd be back and was in love with me. He came back, we went on a few business trips, but things started feeling off. About 4 weeks into his time living in the city with me, I asked why he didnt tell me he was in love with me anymore and seemed detached. He told me that he doesnt think he has "the energy" to leave her.. and he doesnt know if it's a temporary energy problem or a permanent one, but he had to go to "rest" in the home where they live to figure it out. He told me to assume that in fact he would not find his energy and our relationship would end - but ideally he'd like to maintain the friendship and working relationship. He said a bunch of odd things like he realized he didnt want to change for me and vice versa and it was "too much work" to be together.. the truth is we both work from our apartment, we just laugh and we're both exceedingly chill, so I know this was an excuse. I still dont know his real reason. I told him he had the 2-3 weeks he asked for; it will be four weeks tomorrow. Rarely does he communicate with me when he is with her; much like he doesnt communicate much with her when he's with me (I know this because she's sent him several notes saying things like "you dont email me anymore what is going on?") For the past 4 weeks I haven't known much. I was on my own business trip in another state this past week, and got an email from him .. the jist of it was "when I have the energy we will pursue our life together." When, not if. He also knows I pay very close attention to small details. I said "when?" and his response was "let's make this the topic of our trip next week." We are currently on that business trip - and are in another country at the moment. He has his "hotel" where he checked in but doesnt stay (presumably a place to phone her from and .. a coveted receipt in case someone says I was here) and he comes to mine at night. We are leaving back for the city again in a day or two. He can find an excuse to be there probably for a week; after that he'd either have to return "home" (which at one point he said was wherever I am..) or his wife will have a cow. I've asked a close friend, but friends are often too close to the situation to give you good solid advice. I left my H for this man. So he wouldn't feel pressure, I told him I was already going to leave and that my relationship ending had nothing to do with him. I regret doing that.. and not being honest. He said he was leaving - I found out he told her that he was there for work only. I caught him in a number of lies - he asks why I care since he's lying to her. I explained that in the process he's lying to me.. by telling me he's leaving her when he isn't. I do know he told her that he needed space and to leave him alone and he wasn't sure he wanted to stay married (again I verified this myself), so that part was true.. but she seems very happy to have him "back" again. So what I know is: 1. This man doesnt want to lose us both; 2. He consistently lies; 3. He does love me, and is not in love with his wife; 4. He tells me they dont have sex but I am relatively sure that they do; 5. He and I are good friends. I want this as a relationship -- the one he literally promised to me 4 months ago. I also cannot stand not knowing anymore and going to bed every night wondering if he's making love to his W. This is my week to get a 'status update' and see where his 'energy level' is at. So my question to you all is this. Should I give him a final ultimatum? Call her now and end it, or Im out of here - friendship and all - dont ever call? Should I give him more time if he seems to genuinely be making progress, and how would I know? Should I let him go if he says he wants to end it, but still remain friends with the man Im in love with? What route would you all take to get to the destination I want to get to - being with the man that I love that I know is in love with me too. HELP! Girlintwocities
LucreziaBorgia Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 Your mistake is giving him too many choices in the matter. He already made his choice - but it isn't one you anticipated: to stay with his wife and have an affair. All you can do really is end the affair, kick him out, go to NC and see how that affects him. If his ONLY choices are you or her, then he will have to come down on one side or the other. As it is, you are allowing for the 'third choice' which is 'both'. Take away the 'both' option. I don't think it will go the way you want, but at the very least you will have forced him into a real choice.
Author girlintwocities Posted July 3, 2009 Author Posted July 3, 2009 Silent Hill that is a good point..so I do need to give him a final ultimatum.. and he then needs to know that if I go, I leave behind everything.. the friendship, the work we do together - everything.. yes? Or allow to remain friends?
LucreziaBorgia Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 All or nothing at all. If you leave the door open - even a crack, he will continue to stay married and have an affair with you for as long as he can get away with it. He needs to understand that you are no longer an option to him, and when he is ready to make you his choice (ie: he is fully and legally divorced and out of the marital home), then and only then will you allow him to break NC and talk about a future together. As long as you remain an option as OW, he will never make an 'either/or' choice.
bentnotbroken Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 Let's pray he does leave his wife, you and he deserve each other. If he has sex with his wife, what business is it of yours. Sounds like yo are already starting to reap some of the shiggidy you have sown.
theBrokenMuse Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 You wrote that he traded in his first wife because he felt he was getting an upgrade and now he's doing it again. Then you state that you *KNOW* he loves you and not his wife. Considering his pattern here, I'd have to say that it's likely that he doesn't love you or his wife. People that have that type of throw away pattern often don't have the capacity for anything other than skin-deep emotional connections and a great acting ability. If you even have a lick of sense you would be wise to run like hell.
Untouchable_Fire Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 Silent Hill that is a good point..so I do need to give him a final ultimatum.. and he then needs to know that if I go, I leave behind everything.. the friendship, the work we do together - everything.. yes? Or allow to remain friends? That age difference is just too much. I think he already realizes that. Your ultimatum should be based on No Contact. Also... please do not go back to your husband when this affair ends. It's not fair to either of you.
lkjh Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 wow does your university just hand phd's out. He will not leave his wife, you are the OW. He just wants a pretty young mistress on the side. Please don't talk to your H anymore. Divorce him officially and let him have everything. But now you get to live the life you picked. Just think about it, even if you two did end up together where will it go? Ten years from now he will either be dead or in a nursing home and you would have hated your life.
Author girlintwocities Posted July 3, 2009 Author Posted July 3, 2009 Appreciate all of the opinions thanks.. I agree about the potential age differences, and yes the H and I are officially done.. and no our Universities dont just hand out PhDs, we are just human.. Comments much appreciated though. I do agree he's an excellent actor.
Author girlintwocities Posted July 3, 2009 Author Posted July 3, 2009 Thanks, agree with you completely and already gave my H everything... Appreciate the thoughts about the future, that hasn't played much into the thought process.. I guess love can do that on occasion.. wow does your university just hand phd's out. He will not leave his wife, you are the OW. He just wants a pretty young mistress on the side. Please don't talk to your H anymore. Divorce him officially and let him have everything. But now you get to live the life you picked. Just think about it, even if you two did end up together where will it go? Ten years from now he will either be dead or in a nursing home and you would have hated your life.
tami-chan Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 YOU mentioned a few times that he said he has "no energy" to do this and that....well, you should take that at face value...he has no energy, after all he IS...ahm...old. At 4 months (your relationship with him), I highly doubt that he will leave his wife, not only will his adult children hate him ,he will also lose a lot financially. End the affair. It looks like he is just using you to prop up his ego.
hopesndreams Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 You not only have a PHD but also a degree in gullibility. With all this staring you in the face how could you not think he was a cake eater? His poor wife, giving her life to him, now in her 60's and it's been just a lie, a big joke. Was his now W the OW in his 1st marriage? He is incapable of love. He has proven that by dumping his 1st wife for a better model and that he would dump her for you because you are a better model. He changed his mind though and is sticking with his 2nd wife. Guess she has something you don't and never will, so don't even bother trying. He does love me, and is not in love with his wife He doesn't love either of you, but his wife meets certain needs that you can't. This is my week to get a 'status update' and see where his 'energy level' is at. This time next year you'll be waiting for a "status update" if you keep hanging on to him.
Author girlintwocities Posted July 4, 2009 Author Posted July 4, 2009 Thanks for writing.. appreciate it.. if he uses that again or says he continues to need rest, I will absolutely take your advice. I guess at this point the question is, do I continue to do the great business we do together and only be friends? Or he loses all of me? The thought of the latter kills me.. but the thought of seeing him and not being with him hurts too. I wondered about him propping up his ego.. we have a lot in common and do a lot of similar work, but Im beginning to agree there has to be something in this for him or he wouldn't have strung us both along for this long. Let me ask you all this. If you were his W, would you want the OW to tell you? Is that kind or cruel? Ive been operating under the rule that his relationship with his W is his relationship and I just stay completely out of it. But as a W myself, I think I'd want to know. YOU mentioned a few times that he said he has "no energy" to do this and that....well, you should take that at face value...he has no energy, after all he IS...ahm...old. At 4 months (your relationship with him), I highly doubt that he will leave his wife, not only will his adult children hate him ,he will also lose a lot financially. End the affair. It looks like he is just using you to prop up his ego.
Author girlintwocities Posted July 4, 2009 Author Posted July 4, 2009 Hi Hopesndreams.. thanks for your candid reply. Perhaps it is gullibility.. I believe that often we push the internal gut override button when we are in love with someone. That may be gullible by definition I guess. His now W was the OW in his first marriage. He did not want to marry her, but she got pregnant. I do agree he gives him a sense of "family" or "groundedness" and that is something that, given I dont have 25 years of history with him, I dont give him. He also likes people to just leave him alone.. and I tend to ask questions.. so she gives him the "leave alone" factor.. All good points and things to consider. The outside perspective you are all offering is very helpful. I look forward to helping others with this dilemma particularly once I am through with it myself. You not only have a PHD but also a degree in gullibility. With all this staring you in the face how could you not think he was a cake eater? His poor wife, giving her life to him, now in her 60's and it's been just a lie, a big joke. Was his now W the OW in his 1st marriage? He is incapable of love. He has proven that by dumping his 1st wife for a better model and that he would dump her for you because you are a better model. He changed his mind though and is sticking with his 2nd wife. Guess she has something you don't and never will, so don't even bother trying. He does love me, and is not in love with his wife He doesn't love either of you, but his wife meets certain needs that you can't. This is my week to get a 'status update' and see where his 'energy level' is at. This time next year you'll be waiting for a "status update" if you keep hanging on to him.
whichwayisup Posted July 4, 2009 Posted July 4, 2009 End it completely and walk away. Lose him from your life. He cannot have it both ways, if he wants you, he can divorce his wife, then you can start to date him. If he chooses to stay married, don't be the OW anymore. You can't be friends with him, you two WILL end up back in the affair again, or it'll just turn into an emotional one. Either way you'll never heal with him in your life. Honestly? Maybe it's time to be alone for a while. Grieve the loss of your marriage, the life you built with your husband.. Grieve the ending of your affair with the MM and then just BE alone. Enjoy being single and (only date single men) be independant.
2sunny Posted July 4, 2009 Posted July 4, 2009 there is no need to give an ultimatum or another chance. his actions have told you more than several times that he's not capable of giving you what you expect from him - he's only capable of getting whatever he possibly can from you - and you seem more than willing to give him his way as long as his words speak empty promises. empty promises are very tough to have a future with, to have hug you every night, to build dreams and a future with. i can guarantee you that he's playing YOU and his WIFE BIG TIME!!! sure he still has sex with her - and probably amazing sex - always goes that way when his brain is fantasizing about two women... he probably even thinks of his wife when he's with you (it's true). he will always tell you what you need to hear in order to keep you around. he has been running home to be sure he doesn't make his wife too suspicious of his absence. he tells her all the things she needs to hear as well - every time he's home or has her on the phone. take your power and self respect back... tell him NO MORE! he's a liar and a thief and he knows it. there is no use trying to make him look like he's not. he lies to you and his family. he steals your heart and your peace of mind. he also does the same thing to his wife and family! is that the type of man and qualities in a loved one you want to base your future and happiness on? i would think not. dump him... and get another job - move far away and don't tell him, you won't be able to work around him without being very hurt, resentful and angry.
Author girlintwocities Posted July 4, 2009 Author Posted July 4, 2009 Thanks whichwayisup. I agree that seeing him would continue to rip the bandaid off of the wound, so I guess that settles it.. the obvious choice is to walk away from everything including the business we do together. Ugh. The thought is deafening.. but you are right, Ill either end up back in the affair, or damaged every day. Appreciate your advice too on being alone for awhile particularly with all of the loss. Thank you.. End it completely and walk away. Lose him from your life. He cannot have it both ways, if he wants you, he can divorce his wife, then you can start to date him. If he chooses to stay married, don't be the OW anymore. You can't be friends with him, you two WILL end up back in the affair again, or it'll just turn into an emotional one. Either way you'll never heal with him in your life. Honestly? Maybe it's time to be alone for a while. Grieve the loss of your marriage, the life you built with your husband.. Grieve the ending of your affair with the MM and then just BE alone. Enjoy being single and (only date single men) be independant.
Author girlintwocities Posted July 4, 2009 Author Posted July 4, 2009 2sunny thanks. There is much I will miss.. and our work togehter too.. but I am beginning to agree with the unanimous assessment here.. that he has to go.. in all areas. Thank you. Hanging a future on that would be incredibly tough.. Im also thinking he would resent me for forcing a decision on him later on too. there is no need to give an ultimatum or another chance. his actions have told you more than several times that he's not capable of giving you what you expect from him - he's only capable of getting whatever he possibly can from you - and you seem more than willing to give him his way as long as his words speak empty promises. empty promises are very tough to have a future with, to have hug you every night, to build dreams and a future with. i can guarantee you that he's playing YOU and his WIFE BIG TIME!!! sure he still has sex with her - and probably amazing sex - always goes that way when his brain is fantasizing about two women... he probably even thinks of his wife when he's with you (it's true). he will always tell you what you need to hear in order to keep you around. he has been running home to be sure he doesn't make his wife too suspicious of his absence. he tells her all the things she needs to hear as well - every time he's home or has her on the phone. take your power and self respect back... tell him NO MORE! he's a liar and a thief and he knows it. there is no use trying to make him look like he's not. he lies to you and his family. he steals your heart and your peace of mind. he also does the same thing to his wife and family! is that the type of man and qualities in a loved one you want to base your future and happiness on? i would think not. dump him... and get another job - move far away and don't tell him, you won't be able to work around him without being very hurt, resentful and angry.
2sunny Posted July 4, 2009 Posted July 4, 2009 a very wise decision from a gal that is obviously a lot smarter than i gave you credit. i thought you would fight the position and what's best for your future and long term happiness. i am really proud of your willingness and strength to look at the bigger picture. it will be hard - but so worth it. you have the potential for a happy future with a man that will make time for you and want to make you his priority and his whole life. don't settle for anything less.
Author girlintwocities Posted July 4, 2009 Author Posted July 4, 2009 Thanks.. the goal is long term happiness.. but as you all know sometimes when you are walking in the forest you don't see the trees.. it helps to have others who aren't in the middle of the same forest tell you what the species are.. a very wise decision from a gal that is obviously a lot smarter than i gave you credit. i thought you would fight the position and what's best for your future and long term happiness. i am really proud of your willingness and strength to look at the bigger picture. it will be hard - but so worth it. you have the potential for a happy future with a man that will make time for you and want to make you his priority and his whole life. don't settle for anything less.
jj33 Posted July 4, 2009 Posted July 4, 2009 You need to end the affair entirely. I still work with the married man I was involved with but its been a rough road. If you have the opportunity to find another job or work with someone else on projects do that. The healing process will move along much more quickly. As for being friends, forget it. There is no way to go immediately from the affair to being friends. You still have feelings for him. Staying friends is just another way of hanging onto the relationship.
Author girlintwocities Posted July 4, 2009 Author Posted July 4, 2009 Thanks for the advice.. that explains his decision to want to be friends.. when I made it an all or nothing thing some time ago he backed away but didnt leave.. Im enjoying these few days I have with him now traveling knowing it will probably all end shortly when the final ultimatum is given. Oh fun. You need to end the affair entirely. I still work with the married man I was involved with but its been a rough road. If you have the opportunity to find another job or work with someone else on projects do that. The healing process will move along much more quickly. As for being friends, forget it. There is no way to go immediately from the affair to being friends. You still have feelings for him. Staying friends is just another way of hanging onto the relationship.
jj33 Posted July 4, 2009 Posted July 4, 2009 If you look at some of my recent threads on the OW forum people were very supportive about my decision to do NC. Its not easy and it didnt end up as final as I wanted it to be, but it was helpful.
theBrokenMuse Posted July 4, 2009 Posted July 4, 2009 when the final ultimatum is given. An ultimatum is likely to make him try and take his behaviors underground and off the radar in the hopes that he can fool you and keep on at what he's doing. He's a cake eater and they don't tend to give up that cake until it's pried out of their hands, kicking and screaming. Best course of action for your own sanity? Tell him you want nothing more to do with him until he has signed divorce papers in his hand. Go on with your life and see if he's willing to do the work it takes to follow through but don't count on it. From what you've described, he doesn't sound like he's ready for that step.
Author girlintwocities Posted July 4, 2009 Author Posted July 4, 2009 Ugh.. my gut knows you are right.. If he's a cake eater and I agree with you all that he is, then he will do as you have noted here.. how do I know that? Because he already has in the past.. I just didnt know until I did my own "work" to check out what he was really up to and telling all parties... An ultimatum is likely to make him try and take his behaviors underground and off the radar in the hopes that he can fool you and keep on at what he's doing. He's a cake eater and they don't tend to give up that cake until it's pried out of their hands, kicking and screaming. Best course of action for your own sanity? Tell him you want nothing more to do with him until he has signed divorce papers in his hand. Go on with your life and see if he's willing to do the work it takes to follow through but don't count on it. From what you've described, he doesn't sound like he's ready for that step.
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