m-j Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 Hi all. Does anyone have any advice for coping with dating the Charmer? He is fiercely intelligent, manipulative, an amazing writer, sexy, deep, witty, affectionate, passionate and knows EVERYTHING about women and how they will react/what they are thinking etc. His friends called him "The Leo" when we first met and I asked their advice on whether he was actually interested in me or if he was just "Leo-ing" me and they all said the former. He convinced me otherwise and one year and one count of infidelity on his part later, I am struggling. We live together, he is a GOOD person, religious and great family and great friends...but he has this element of attitude and charisma that alot of people cant seem to look past and it's getting me down. Of course I see him at his weakest and most vulnerable and I see that he loves me but I really wish he wasn't such a charmer!!! Girls are powerless against him and alot of guys dislike him because he seems manipulative and talks his way out of anything and is chummy with all their girlfriends. Sigh. He sounds bad but surely some of you girls have fallen in love with the charmer before? Any advice?
mortensorchid Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 I love one of those. I wish you best of luck with it. Because he's going to break my heart one day.
butcher's hook Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 See, this is the thing as soon as I read charmer and knows how to think for women and is fiercely intelligent witty etc...was sort of alarming for me I was totally going to say those are the key traits of an insecure guy who loves attention. This is the type of guy who will end up cheating. And guess what? He did do that already. I just don't know why you would stick around with someone who has a) already been unfaithful to you and b) concerns you because he is too much of a "woman's man". I don't see these as good long term qualities to be honest.
Trialbyfire Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 m-j, I married one like that and he also ended up cheating on me. It's not going to change unless he wants to change himself. You might want to google Narcissistic Personality Disorder ("NPD") and see if you can match the symptoms. If so, you're in deep ka-ka, so get out before you commit any further. If he's also NPD, take a look at what you are, which is his primary narcissistic supply. p.s. I also divorced him, after he cheated.
StayinFree Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 You should look around for someone not nearly as exciting and charming. Maybe a guy who has one of those weak chins with scragly little facial hairs that took him 6 weeks to grow. Whatever ... but someone less charming. Less likely to cheat. Then he won't have this power over you ... maybe even make him worry about you. Or just go with the flow and enjoy what you can - from him.
Trialbyfire Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 You should look around for someone not nearly as exciting and charming. Maybe a guy who has one of those weak chins with scragly little facial hairs that took him 6 weeks to grow. Whatever ... but someone less charming. Less likely to cheat. Then he won't have this power over you ... maybe even make him worry about you. Or just go with the flow and enjoy what you can - from him.No, it's not the charm and all the positive traits that's the problem, with a cheater. You'll find the pony-tail man on the corner could be a cheater. After an experience with a cheater, after you process it all, you'll be better armed with knowledge, to help you avoid the same kind of man. Watch for the generation of A LOT of external validation. Watch for selfishness. Watch for someone who shunts personal responsibility.
Author m-j Posted July 1, 2009 Author Posted July 1, 2009 I find it hard to believe that he has NPD - it seems a bit extreme. I want to discuss this with him as I am a firm believer in everything being open and honest as we have always been. But whenever I bring it up he either loses his temper or gets upset because I am accusing him of not loving me enough or being self-centred which he doesnt believe he is. If I really pushed it, I feel like he would give me an ultimatum (love me or leave me) and I dont think I want to face that if it's not necessary. I also feel like a bit of a whinger. Maybe I need to toughen up and accept that sometimes he will talk to his female friends and his charming nature make him look like he is flirting when really he just made a terrible mistake (cheating) and he is desperately in love with me and only me. How do I know?
butcher's hook Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 How did he cheat on you? why did you decide to stay with him after that?
Trialbyfire Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 So when you ask for answers on his questionable behaviour, he gets angry at you and makes it your fault. Do you question him a lot on this? Also, you have to understand that it's not that he loves you enough or not, it's that he loves himself more. As for not being willing to push it, you've lost credibility with him because he knows it.
Author m-j Posted July 1, 2009 Author Posted July 1, 2009 After a month of dating, he went interstate for work and we missed each other so much that I quit my job and moved into his city apartment paid for by his work for a few months. We came back to our town together and moved back with our parents (as in separate houses/families) and a week before my 21st birthday he went out with his friends and one of his female friends who is notorious for being promiscuous (and he cheated on his ex with her as well) they went back to our other friend's place and were supposed to meet everyone else there but no one showed up and they ended up having sex. I feel like crying now typing this. The next morning my boyfriend was in a complete mess crying (he never cries), saying he wishes he was dead, saying he ruined the most important thing in his life and I eventually took him back. He said if i cry and hate him for the next year he will understand etc. I told him the only way its going to work is if we start on the same level and I cant think I am better than him or he owes me anything. It is such a BIG mess and I really hope that we work through it. I know so many people have a one-strike rule but I cheated on my last boyfriend multiple times and I woudl never do it again to anyone...and i havent. So people can change. I just want to learn how to trust him!
Author m-j Posted July 1, 2009 Author Posted July 1, 2009 I'll just quickly update the relationship timeline....five months after he cheated, we moved in together. Its been good, a bit tense at times. Now we have lived together for four months. We live with his best female friend who he used to hook up with alot.....you can imagine what thats like for me. I don't think they are going to hook up but I am still jealous of their friendship at times. We now live with another male friend of ours as well. I guess it balances it out a bit.
butcher's hook Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 Aww I'm sorry you feel bad retelling the story. Didn't mean to stir up old emotions... I think you are right people do and can change but as you have already seen with your own ex situation, sometimes that dynamic cannot change unless a new person is involved in the equation. What I mean by that is just as he cried and felt like he was going to die after the did that to you, and claimed he would spend a year in penance if need be, only a short while after his tune has changed significantly. You see when a person desperately wants someone back they will commit to a lot of words that they later cannot deliver in actions. What worries me is that he belittles how you feel now and in fact you shouldn't even be talking to him about how be behaves. It should come naturally to him that if he is crossing lines with other women by flirting and even pissing off men by crossing lines with their girlfriends, that it would also be considered disrespectful to you given everything he has already put you through. The reality is that you have forgiven him, he performed a very hurtful act against you, and you forgave him and in his head he can do no wrong in front of you because you have proven to him you are willing to accept the absolute worse. I am afraid you have lost all bargaining power here. Oh gosh and you live with a roommate he used to hook up with too? Honey you are really setting yourself up for some severe mental torture with this fellow, is he really worth all this? I am afraid he is too sure of you, he will eventually cheat again unless you can do something to severely shake his ground, if you do want to stay with him.
SoulSearch_CO Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 one of his female friends who is notorious for being promiscuous (and he cheated on his ex with her as well) they went back to our other friend's place and were supposed to meet everyone else there but no one showed up and they ended up having sex. Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. These two are bad news. Why don't they just get together and be done with it? Quit hurting other people. The next morning my boyfriend was in a complete mess crying (he never cries), saying he wishes he was dead, saying he ruined the most important thing in his life and I eventually took him back. He said if i cry and hate him for the next year he will understand etc. Hmm. This sounds so familiar. Why does this sound so familiar. Hmm. Oh, yeah - that sounds EXACTLY like my XH. It's such a game. I'm sorry to say that, but it is! He knows what it's going to take to make you stay - turn on the waterworks. I'm telling you that if I went through the same thing now (being cheated on, finding out, him saying he wanted to die, he'd understand if I hated him forever, etc), I'd call the police to put a 72-hour mental-health hold (suicide threat) on him and be done with it. That 72 hours would be what I needed to pack my **** up and be gone. You know how many times we went round and round with Mr Charmer and his cheating, me finding out, him wanting to die...only to repeat the cycle later? I lost freaking count. There are so many issues, I don't even know where to begin. But when somebody is charming, IMO, it's because they actually DON'T like themselves and they seek approval from other people because it validates them and gives them that feeling of self-worth that they lack on their own. THIS is the issue that has to be fixed first. Otherwise they will always seek external validation and in a lot of cases, that includes sex with other people.
foxzilla Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 It is such a BIG mess and I really hope that we work through it. I know so many people have a one-strike rule but I cheated on my last boyfriend multiple times and I woudl never do it again to anyone...and i havent. So people can change. I just want to learn how to trust him! What I'm going to say won't be nice, I apologize in advance. It sounds like he feeds of the attention you give him. He wants to be congratulated and rewarded every time he does something good,and maybe at first 'leo' was a nice guy, always complimenting you and on that same note you sound co-dependent Trialbyfire is right, I got engaged to a charmer and he did the same pattern. I loved him, I did everything for him and he cheated on me. He cried and cried about how he ruined the only good thing for him and he hated himself to the point he wished himself dead. So I took him back. He kept cheating on me and his temper about being called out on his issues grew and grew til he attacked me ( http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t193738/ <-my story) BUT ITS NOT YOU! Its him, and no one can be forced to change, they have to want it. He wont grow out of it, trust me. We know, because your story used to be our story. I was the girl who thought If only I could be 'this way' or 'that way' my life would fall into place. I was co-dependent for a long time, til I started to appreciate me for who I am and eventually I realized I didn't need him to feel good about myself! Don' fit your entire world around him, he shouldn't need that to love you.
Quest Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 I find it hard to believe that he has NPD - it seems a bit extreme. I want to discuss this with him as I am a firm believer in everything being open and honest as we have always been. But whenever I bring it up he either loses his temper or gets upset because I am accusing him of not loving me enough or being self-centred which he doesnt believe he is. If I really pushed it, I feel like he would give me an ultimatum (love me or leave me) and I dont think I want to face that if it's not necessary. I also feel like a bit of a whinger. Maybe I need to toughen up and accept that sometimes he will talk to his female friends and his charming nature make him look like he is flirting when really he just made a terrible mistake (cheating) and he is desperately in love with me and only me. How do I know? M-J - you might find it a bit rich taking advice from when I am in the middle of a mess with a master manipulator (aka charmer) but here goes: The reason I am NC with the guy I was with (see threads 'Email' and 'Am I Being Unreasonable or Manipulated') is because of a lot of things you mention in your email above. 1. When I brought up behaviour I found unreasonable he accused me of 'not loving him enough' and in my case spoiling 'precious days in a short life we should make the most of'. 2. He 'talked' to female 'friends' all the time ... in fact he emailed them and went out with them for nice days out, or met them for lunch, or whatever. What else he did I don't know but it made me uneasy and felt unfair when we didn't have much time together and he wouldn't spend much of it with me. 3. I ended up feeling I'd been pushed into the role of 'whinger' by demanding a few things and this was made worse by the fact I knew he was having a good time with these other women who wouldn't be whinging because they were just getting his 'charm' ... who was going to look like the more attractive proposition then? 4. The reason I was attracted to this guy in the first place was because he was: 'fiercely intelligent, an amazing writer, sexy, deep, witty, affectionate, passionate and knows EVERYTHING about women and how they will react/what they are thinking etc' How do you know what someone really feels and thinks - you don't. All you can go on is behaviour and see what that suggests about their thoughts and feelings. My view is it's a no-win situation to be in, being the partner of a charmer if you want a reasonable, give-and-take relationship. It's fine if you are prepared just to be fun and not want anything in terms of real commitment. That's just my view and your guy might be really different in a lot of ways but there do seem to be parallels. I'd say think about what you want longterm and if he's the guy who's liable to give it to you and then make a few decisions for your own happiness! That is what I am trying to do but it's easier said than done - that is why they are called 'charmers'
Sam Spade Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 This kind of thread contributes to my somewhat low opinion of women . I am of course sorry for the OPs ordeal, but for me this type of personality and behavior is sooo transparent that it beats me how anybody at all could ever be fooled . The only credible excuse is a very young and impressionable age, which applies in the OPs case. Speaking of which, OP - you should just kick this fella to the curb, right now. Anybody who feeds on attention is not somebody to be associated with, much less relied upon for anything.
Quest Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 This kind of thread contributes to my somewhat low opinion of women . I am of course sorry for the OPs ordeal, but for me this type of personality and behavior is sooo transparent that it beats me how anybody at all could ever be fooled . Charmers are everywhere ... people write novels about them, history is full of famous examples .... and women get taken in by them because they are CHARMING. Charm is a kind of spell ... ... which is why we get taken in ... Being young and/or vulnerable definitely makes it more likely you'll fall under that spell but everyone can have vulnerable periods in their lives and be fooled - for a while. Judging by what a lot of people say charmers know that and so only prey where they know someone is vulnerable for whatever reason. It make look foolish being taken in but you can see why it happens Not that I'm happy I was one of the duped ones ... just glad I've woken up.
2sure Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 Girls are powerless against him and alot of guys dislike him because he seems manipulative and talks his way out of anything and is chummy with all their girlfriends. There is nothing charming about this type of behavior. A gentleman is charming. His peers find him manipulative...thats attractive?? Possibly he is a womanizer but really he sounds like a Narcissist. That doesn't make him an axe murderer, it just makes people unable to have empathetic relationships.
SoulSearch_CO Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 This kind of thread contributes to my somewhat low opinion of women . I am of course sorry for the OPs ordeal, but for me this type of personality and behavior is sooo transparent that it beats me how anybody at all could ever be fooled . The only credible excuse is a very young and impressionable age, which applies in the OPs case. Speaking of which, OP - you should just kick this fella to the curb, right now. Anybody who feeds on attention is not somebody to be associated with, much less relied upon for anything. Well, I'd have to say that it's hard to be cynical about something until you've been burned by it. And I was only 22 when I met MY Mr. Charm.
Trialbyfire Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 Jeezus, this guy sounds familiar!! Read up on NPD.
Author m-j Posted July 2, 2009 Author Posted July 2, 2009 Well I had a talk to him last night about how he sometimes he says things that are hurtful and I didn't want him to lose his temper over it I just wanted to talk it through with him. He looked shocked and he was pretty shaken by the fact that he is seriously upsetting me. He said that if we weren't living together and had been together for over a year then he probably would have broken up with me because he was hurting me without realising it. I guess because we have been together so long we know we can work through it instead of giving up. He ended up taking some time out and going for a walk. I gave him some space, then he came back to me and laid his head in my lap and said he was sorry. He thought he had been a bad person and the last thing he wants to do is hurt me. I told him i dont think he is a bad person (I dont!), but he needs to realise when he says harsh things or makes inappropriate jokes. He really doesn't act inappropriately with our female friends, he is just more affectionate than most guys. He is the same with his two little sisters - it is not sexual at all - it is just how he deals with girls he cares about. I know that he is showing signs of a potential heartbreaker, but every couple have their issues. And I can't end this relationship just because there is a chance he might be a repeat offender. Anyone could cheat at any time - I just have to learn to trust him.
boogieboy Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Aight, stick a fork in THIS one, shes done....no gettin through...
BWLoca Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 So...you tell him how he's been hurting you and he comments that he would've broken up with YOU? So overall, nothing has become of that talk...
butcher's hook Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Aight, stick a fork in THIS one, shes done....no gettin through... SERIOUSLY!!!!!!! m-j now you are making excuses for him? I know that he is showing signs of a potential heartbreaker, but every couple have their issues. And I can't end this relationship just because there is a chance he might be a repeat offender. Anyone could cheat at any time - I just have to learn to trust him. Sweetie he's shown you he is a repeat offender in his actions, even if he has not repeated the MAIN offense just yet.
carhill Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Let's just hope she doesn't pop out a kid or two with this guy. I've seen this kind of scatology go on for decades. Religious my ass. Sorry to be blunt. I deal with these kind of aholes every day in business. Talk out both sides of their mouth and their ass too. Sunshine leaks everywhere. Success through manipulation. Miracle of the modern world. And then I go read the backstory: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1980668&postcount=1 Slap-happy tonight....
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