Are MM the same whether pleading with his BW or OW

[SidLyon]

Sorry - I accidentally sent this before I had spell-checked.

 

As a BW I notice that I've been spending more time on this board rather than the Infidelity one lately.

 

Some might see it as being more focused on the OW than is healthy for me - people have said as much to me in another thread.

 

For me it represents a step forward in that I'm no longer needing advice on how to save my marriage and how to cope with the utter devastation caused by d-day more than 8 months ago.

 

However I'm starting to agree that this should be a stepping stone at most in my own healing. Much of the reason I'm here has been to try to understand the OW mentality and work out how the A might have happened. But strangely even though there aren't many here I've also come to an understanding of how MM in affairs operate; I've gleaned this from the way all the women here talk about either their Hs or their MM.

 

The main type of OW on this forum, is currently involved with a MM who is stringing her along about leaving his wife. Within this category there are 2 types of OW; those who still believe that it's only a matter of time before the MM leaves and those who have slowly come to the realisation that he will probably never leave. Other posters generally give the same advice in both situations - ie he will never leave and to get out of the A if the OW is somehow expecting to be more than just an OW, but to leave the door open if and only if he permanently leaves his W. This is good advice as it saves the OW possibly years of heartbreak and humiliation and also encourages MM to make a choice one way or the other. I really wish this had happened with my H's affair as it would have also saved me years and years of being manipulated by him. Our marriage is not a prison and I never would have wanted him to stay with me while in an ongoing A. If the OW had been stronger then all of us might have been in a better place by now.

 

The less common sort of OW on this board is either happy to remain an OW, and so in a sense retains much power and control in her life, or is an OW who's MM has actually left the marriage to be with her. This often has its own set of problems as being with a partner going though a messy divorce is .. well messy. But this could happen to anyone in a relationship with a newly single man.

 

It's the first sort of OW I'd like to concentrate on - this is the person who has strong feelings for her MM but who knows in her heart she is in a toxic relationship but cannot bring herself to end it because of the feelings.

 

I'd like to let you know that this is actually how I feel as the BW. I still have strong feelings for my H and desperately want to be married to him and part of a family with him and our children. It's obvious to me that he feels the same and certainly our children will be destroyed if we split up. There is a big part of me that knows he has been an awful H to me. Basically he has been unfaithful to me with several women for most of our marriage. He has had only 1 affair though and he had genuine feelings for her. I am reasonably certain that he and the OW are having NC but I also accept that having deceived me in the past he could do so again. An A conducted almost entirely during lunch times can be easy to hide and was for my H.

 

He is doing exactly the same thing with me as I see from this board that many MM do with their OW. I am sure (just as an OW would be) that he really means it and feels caught by the situation. A MM trying to sweet talk the OW, is caught in the situation where he has a W (who does not want to split up) and kids and a good life but he also has a relationship in the side. If the W doesn't know then all his efforts go into convincing the OW to stay with him.

 

In my situation where there is a BW and NC with the OW, he is just as caught but this time he is stuck with the fact that he has been unfaithful but he still doesn't want to lose the life with the W and family so all his efforts go into convincing his BW to stay with him.

 

In both cases the MM's behaviour is almost identical. The degree to which he will argue his case, beg and plead for the relationship has been a total eye opener for me. I have no doubt that had my H been in a situation where I remained unaware and the OW started standing up for herself then all this begging and pleading would be directed at her.

 

All I can say is whether one is the BW or the OW - it is very hard to resist the MM when he does this. It would be much easier if all the feelings of love had disappeared long ago.

 

S

[jj33]

Thats the thing Sid. For so many of the WSs they get away with it because they have 2 people who really sincerely love them. And they are feeding the same bs lines to each of them, spinning them to suit their needs.

 

So he tells the OW he loves her and whatever else and he tells the BS everything is fine just working hard or whatever and after D day maybe he sings a different tune, maybe he rekindles the A maybe he doesnt.

 

I can understand that you wish the OW had been stronger, but really it was up to your H to be stronger. It was up to him to live up to your marriage vows. I would suggest you are still putting responsibility for your marriage where it doesnt belong. It belongs with your H.

 

People are subject to "temptation" all the time, they meet alluring people on the train to work, in the workplace, at Starbucks, at 7/11, if you are open to the advances of others, or you are open to making advances to others, then the world is your candy store.

 

Some WSs dont realize they are open for business until they meet someone who really does it for them, others just are for whatever reason.

 

Ultimately we all have to look after ourselves. To continue a marriage with someone who isnt 100% committed to monogamy is a choice. But you cant count on faceless strangers to resist his charms and whatever stories he may tell them. You need to be able to rely on him to keep it zipped.

 

Just as in the same way, an OW who doesnt want to be the OW has to stop waiting for the MM to "let them go" or let them off the hook, they need to protect their hearts by not accepting situations that are making them unhappy.

 

So yes as you say there are similarities in the position.

[fooled once]

If the OW had been stronger then all of us might have been in a better place by now.

 

I'd like to let you know that this is actually how I feel as the BW. I still have strong feelings for my H and desperately want to be married to him and part of a family with him and our children. It's obvious to me that he feels the same and certainly our children will be destroyed if we split up. There is a big part of me that knows he has been an awful H to me. Basically he has been unfaithful to me with several women for most of our marriage. He has had only 1 affair though and he had genuine feelings for her. I am reasonably certain that he and the OW are having NC but I also accept that having deceived me in the past he could do so again. An A conducted almost entirely during lunch times can be easy to hide and was for my H.

 

He is doing exactly the same thing with me as I see from this board that many MM do with their OW. I am sure (just as an OW would be) that he really means it and feels caught by the situation. A MM trying to sweet talk the OW, is caught in the situation where he has a W (who does not want to split up) and kids and a good life but he also has a relationship in the side. If the W doesn't know then all his efforts go into convincing the OW to stay with him.

 

In my situation where there is a BW and NC with the OW, he is just as caught but this time he is stuck with the fact that he has been unfaithful but he still doesn't want to lose the life with the W and family so all his efforts go into convincing his BW to stay with him.

 

Sid - regarding my bolded part above -- I am confused. Are you blaming the OW for not being strong enough to resist your H's advances?

 

For the second bolded part -- I am curious as to why you want to save your marriage so badly? He admit he has treated you horribly, yet you 'love' him? Why? What loveable qualities does he have as a HUSBAND. Since you say he has cheated on you for most of your marriage, I am guessing he is a charmer since he has found so many people to cheat on you with.

 

Are you afraid of being alone? Are you afraid of raising your children alone? What keeps you with him?

[PhoenixRise]

I think MM are the same if the women are the same.

 

If the women both sit back and listen to the pleading and just hope that the MM will recommit to the marriage (the BS) or leave the marriage (OW).

 

I think when BS are too afraid to leave the marriage the MM knows this and behaves accordingly. He can deal with the temporary tears and recriminations then go right back to cheating with his AP or a new AP. I think the fear of losing the MM to the OW keeps many BS from enforcing any consequences for the affair and in some cases the BS will push down her pain and go out of her way to make the marriage look super fantastic to the MM hoping the MM will chose to value the marriage.

 

It is all about fear.

 

 

I think in the case of the OW if SHE is too afraid to leave the relationship the MM knows this and behaves accordingly. He will deal with any hurt feelings, talk of how bad things are at home, talk of the need for patience, talk a rosy future, then he will go right back to his wife. The OW won't enforce any consequensces for MM bad treatment of her because if the wife is the bad choice she wants to be the better choice and if she enforces a boundary he might find it easier not to chose her at all.

 

It is all about fear.

 

Similar behavior will probally get you similar results.

It doesn't matter if you are a wife or other woman if you are scared to leave you will continue to get walked on.

 

My H "forgot" that I don't consider marriage a hostage situation and I ain't scared.

 

I think the woman who is willing to stand up for herself and who is NOT afraid to walk away will ALWAYS win whether she "gets" the guy or not.

[SidLyon]

Thats the thing Sid. For so many of the WSs they get away with it because they have 2 people who really sincerely love them. And they are feeding the same bs lines to each of them, spinning them to suit their needs.

 

So he tells the OW he loves her and whatever else and he tells the BS everything is fine just working hard or whatever and after D day maybe he sings a different tune, maybe he rekindles the A maybe he doesnt.

 

I can understand that you wish the OW had been stronger, but really it was up to your H to be stronger. It was up to him to live up to your marriage vows. I would suggest you are still putting responsibility for your marriage where it doesnt belong. It belongs with your H.

 

Actually I don't really wish the OW had been stronger - just saying if she had been, things might have been different. Unfortunately I'm stuck in the trap of "wishing" my H had lived up to his commitments but it's no use wishing. The responsibility for my marriage rests not just with my H but also with me; and the responsibility for the A rests with my H and the OW. I'm not one of these people that argue that women have no obligations to the Ws of men they might get involved with. I have had opportunities with MM (what women hasn't?) but have never succumbed because I cannot imagine voluntarily sharing a man who is committed elsewhere. It's been a source of pain to me that that's exactly what I was doing while the A was going on.

 

People are subject to "temptation" all the time, they meet alluring people on the train to work, in the workplace, at Starbucks, at 7/11, if you are open to the advances of others, or you are open to making advances to others, then the world is your candy store.

 

Yep exactly.

 

Some WSs dont realize they are open for business until they meet someone who really does it for them, others just are for whatever reason.

 

Ultimately we all have to look after ourselves. To continue a marriage with someone who isnt 100% committed to monogamy is a choice. But you cant count on faceless strangers to resist his charms and whatever stories he may tell them. You need to be able to rely on him to keep it zipped.

 

Yes obviously my ideas of monogamy in marriage are at odds with my H's; as a result I have been in a marriage that has been bad for me. But like so many OW I stay because I love him and because there are many other good things about him. Basically just like so many OW I hope that he will mend his ways. My impression is that many OW live in hope that he will not only leave his W for them but presumably they also want the MM to mend his ways. If the "once a cheater always a cheater" adage is true then there's not much hope for either an OW whose MM leaves for her, or a BW whose H stays with her.

 

Just as in the same way, an OW who doesnt want to be the OW has to stop waiting for the MM to "let them go" or let them off the hook, they need to protect their hearts by not accepting situations that are making them unhappy.

 

So yes as you say there are similarities in the position.

 

Sorry to be ignorant but can anyone please help with how to get replies properly interspersed?

 

S

[jj33]

Yes obviously my ideas of monogamy in marriage are at odds with my H's; as a result I have been in a marriage that has been bad for me. But like so many OW I stay because I love him and because there are many other good things about him. Basically just like so many OW I hope that he will mend his ways. My impression is that many OW live in hope that he will not only leave his W for them but presumably they also want the MM to mend his ways. If the "once a cheater always a cheater" adage is true then there's not much hope for either an OW whose MM leaves for her, or a BW whose H stays with her.

 

Sid I have never learned how to intersperse either so I have copied your statement.

 

My heart goes out to you. I cant imagine how awful it would be to be the BS hoping that the H will mend his ways.

 

And I have very uncomfortable feelings about being (or in my case having been) the OW and at any point wanting someone to leave a marriage "for you".

 

There is something in it like the demonic cheerleader sitting on the sidelines hoping someone else's world is torn apart.

 

I struggled with that alot. I couldnt ever bring myself to ask him to leave, if he was thinking about leaving. I always took the position that his M was between him and his W and that if they kept it intact or they split that was none of my business. I could only control my decisions - was I happy with the relationship we had, given that at that time he was married, or was I not.

 

Even after it ended, and to this day, the thought of him going through a divorce brings me to tears. Unless he and his W were so unhappy together that they decided they couldnt go on together, I would never wish that on them.They have been married for years, have raised children, have grandchildren, its a lot to tear down.

 

And when I still wished for a way for us to be together I used to muse with friends, well I dont want him to leave "for me", I dont wish her dead, and short of that I guess I would want them and each have a chance to find real happiness rather than continuing together for the sake of propriety. But I never wanted to be that person on the sidelines wanting someone to leave for me.

 

As awful as its been since it ended, he never ever told me fairy tales to keep me in there, never ever promised me things he couldnt deliver. He was scrupulous on that point. He never said a bad word about his W (others did that for him unbeknownst to him).

 

In his own little way, he did everything he could to be "honorable" about the situation. He has never badmouthed me is still a loyal supporter in business (despite noises to the contrary recently and that has been solved).

 

And yet I kept myself tied to him emotionally because I loved him. Knowing that he had no intention of leaving. Knowing that he wanted to on certain levels but couldnt see his way clear to overcoming various obstacles.

 

I agree if once a cheater always a cheater holds true, then there is little hope. I think for many couples this is a real issue even if the OW and the MM are together once he leaves. Some like GEL seem to have overcome that.

 

As I said I know this is very difficult for you. And I hope it gets easier.

[SidLyon]

Sid - regarding my bolded part above -- I am confused. Are you blaming the OW for not being strong enough to resist your H's advances?

 

No - I'm merely saying that had she decided she wouldn't stand for being something on the side then things might have turned out differently.

 

For the second bolded part -- I am curious as to why you want to save your marriage so badly?

 

I guess I can't answer that - that is what I ask myself all the time - why? I do know that it cannot happen again - for my own dignity and self respect a recurrence will mean the end of our marriage.

 

He admit he has treated you horribly, yet you 'love' him? Why?

 

Again I don't know - he didn't just become a monster overnight - the awful thing to me was that he was still the same person once I found out what he'd done.

 

What lovable qualities does he have as a HUSBAND. Since you say he has cheated on you for most of your marriage, I am guessing he is a charmer since he has found so many people to cheat on you with.

 

No he's not a charmer - he is shy, very quiet introverted; but highly intelligent.

 

Are you afraid of being alone? Are you afraid of raising your children alone? What keeps you with him?

 

Not afraid of being alone and he would never abandon his children so they would still have 2 involved parents.

 

The reason that I stay with him is because I like him as a person and he likes me. We love each other and get along well. We have a lot in common and share most values (obviously not the fidelity gene though ). We are usually in tune with each other's thoughts. The down side is that he has seriously undermined our marriage. He says he has changed, he is older and wiser now, he regrets what happened. He's had difficulty coping with the public nature of his infidelity as he's lost the respect of family, friends and colleagues.

 

I also believe that he deserves another chance - this is probably the main reason we are still together.

 

Perhaps I am being particularly introspective today as it's the 20th anniversary of our first date.

 

S

[SidLyon]

I think MM are the same if the women are the same.

 

If the women both sit back and listen to the pleading and just hope that the MM will recommit to the marriage (the BS) or leave the marriage (OW).

 

I think when BS are too afraid to leave the marriage the MM knows this and behaves accordingly. He can deal with the temporary tears and recriminations then go right back to cheating with his AP or a new AP. I think the fear of losing the MM to the OW keeps many BS from enforcing any consequences for the affair and in some cases the BS will push down her pain and go out of her way to make the marriage look super fantastic to the MM hoping the MM will chose to value the marriage.

 

It is all about fear.

 

 

I think in the case of the OW if SHE is too afraid to leave the relationship the MM knows this and behaves accordingly. He will deal with any hurt feelings, talk of how bad things are at home, talk of the need for patience, talk a rosy future, then he will go right back to his wife. The OW won't enforce any consequensces for MM bad treatment of her because if the wife is the bad choice she wants to be the better choice and if she enforces a boundary he might find it easier not to chose her at all.

 

It is all about fear.

 

Similar behavior will probally get you similar results.

It doesn't matter if you are a wife or other woman if you are scared to leave you will continue to get walked on.

 

My H "forgot" that I don't consider marriage a hostage situation and I ain't scared.

 

I think the woman who is willing to stand up for herself and who is NOT afraid to walk away will ALWAYS win whether she "gets" the guy or not.[/QUOTE]

 

Yes I think you are right. I guess I'm really wanting my marriage to work and for my H to be faithful in future. Most people consider me a strong and coping sort of person - I am too - or have usually been.

 

I want my H to understand that I am not scared to leave but realistically I don't want to have to actually leave to prove it. Actually leaving involves considerably uprooting ourselves and destabilising our children. In the past when I have left relationships it has been easy despite shared ownership of homes, shared finances and shared pets. I absolutely do not want to upset my children and it would be awful it it were done just to prove to my H that I'm serious. In reality I want my marriage to survive and for us to go on to bigger and better things.

 

But yes a small part of me questions whether it is just about the fear of the unknown. I feel very conflicted still.

 

S

[MistyK]

jj33: There is something in it like the demonic cheerleader sitting on the sidelines hoping someone else's world is torn apart.

 

I don't think this is really fair. I don't think the majority of OW wish anything ill upon the BW even though it is easy to get caught up in the littany of complaints MM's usually have about their W's. Being an OW sucks, and you just want your pain to end; it's not that you are actively wishing pain upon another.

 

SidLyon: No - I'm merely saying that had she decided she wouldn't stand for being something on the side then things might have turned out differently.

 

Sid, How do you think things would have been different if the OW was stronger? Wouldn't it be more important to you that your H was strong enough to either not go there or end it himself?

 

Something else to consider, and this may just be the delusional ramblings of someone still caught in the undertow of an MM - but some OW, or I at least always looked at it as the happier path for the BW if she and MM split up. (I thought this for several reasons: it's obvious they weren't meeting each other's needs, he treated her badly - particularly after D-day with lies and nastiness and false hope, and according to him the only thing keeping him there for the last 6 years was the kids. No matter how awful a picture he painted of her, I still figure that everyone deserves to be happy and I knew that wouldn't be with MM, so I thought of it as best that they split - for all of us. )

 

For the record, I also don't buy that divorces "destroy" children. Bad parenting through messy divorces wreaks emotional havoc for kids - it's not the divorce itself. And further, in contentious households, I would argue it's much less toxic for children to have 2 homes. Here again, based on what my MM told me about the awful fights occurring and the BW's frequent physical attacks (even before d-day) I really believe that MM's children would be better off in two, calmer households.

 

Now, is this what I tell myself so I can sleep at night? Maybe, but I bet you I'm not the only OW that thinks this way.

[jj33]

Misty you and I may not feel that way but lets face it there are enough posts where that is the case.

 

And I must confess there were times when I thought my God, if you are thinking about leaving just do it already, your marriage is a farce, you know that, I know that, the whole world knows that, just cut the cord already. But when I thought hard about what that would mean to them as a family it was very upsetting.

 

I found the whole thing to be very very frustrating and very upsetitng because I didnt want them to go through that and yet I wanted a parallel universe in which he was free to be with me.

 

Its just not a good place to be.

[MistyK]

Misty you and I may not feel that way but lets face it there are enough posts where that is the case.

 

And I must confess there were times when I thought my God, if you are thinking about leaving just do it already, your marriage is a farce, you know that, I know that, the whole world knows that, just cut the cord already. But when I thought hard about what that would mean to them as a family it was very upsetting.

 

I found the whole thing to be very very frustrating and very upsetitng because I didnt want them to go through that and yet I wanted a parallel universe in which he was free to be with me.

 

Its just not a good place to be.

 

Exactly. I don't like the idea that anyone has to be pained for my MM and I to be together. (In part that's why I had hoped he'd leave before D-day as he promised he would so that no one would ever have to know/be hurt by about the A. Divorces are painful enough and I didn't want there to be any added pain for anyone on my account.) And further, I liked to think that everyone's long term happiness was really dependent upon the split. I really believed that everyone would be happier in the long run - BW, MM, the kids, and me of course, if they split. It makes me sad to know the pain his children are experiencing as a result of the A being discovered and poor handling thereafter on everyone's part. Hell, it makes me very sad when I think of my H crying at my feet begging me not to divorce him two years ago. Divorces just suck.

 

Anyway, I digress....

[White Flower]

Sorry - I accidentally sent this before I had spell-checked.

 

As a BW I notice that I've been spending more time on this board rather than the Infidelity one lately.

 

Some might see it as being more focused on the OW than is healthy for me - people have said as much to me in another thread.

 

For me it represents a step forward in that I'm no longer needing advice on how to save my marriage and how to cope with the utter devastation caused by d-day more than 8 months ago.

 

However I'm starting to agree that this should be a stepping stone at most in my own healing. Much of the reason I'm here has been to try to understand the OW mentality and work out how the A might have happened. But strangely even though there aren't many here I've also come to an understanding of how MM in affairs operate; I've gleaned this from the way all the women here talk about either their Hs or their MM.

 

The main type of OW on this forum, is currently involved with a MM who is stringing her along about leaving his wife. Within this category there are 2 types of OW; those who still believe that it's only a matter of time before the MM leaves and those who have slowly come to the realisation that he will probably never leave. Other posters generally give the same advice in both situations - ie he will never leave and to get out of the A if the OW is somehow expecting to be more than just an OW, but to leave the door open if and only if he permanently leaves his W. This is good advice as it saves the OW possibly years of heartbreak and humiliation and also encourages MM to make a choice one way or the other. I really wish this had happened with my H's affair as it would have also saved me years and years of being manipulated by him. Our marriage is not a prison and I never would have wanted him to stay with me while in an ongoing A. If the OW had been stronger then all of us might have been in a better place by now.

 

The less common sort of OW on this board is either happy to remain an OW, and so in a sense retains much power and control in her life, or is an OW who's MM has actually left the marriage to be with her. This often has its own set of problems as being with a partner going though a messy divorce is .. well messy. But this could happen to anyone in a relationship with a newly single man.

 

It's the first sort of OW I'd like to concentrate on - this is the person who has strong feelings for her MM but who knows in her heart she is in a toxic relationship but cannot bring herself to end it because of the feelings.

 

I'd like to let you know that this is actually how I feel as the BW. I still have strong feelings for my H and desperately want to be married to him and part of a family with him and our children. It's obvious to me that he feels the same and certainly our children will be destroyed if we split up. There is a big part of me that knows he has been an awful H to me. Basically he has been unfaithful to me with several women for most of our marriage. He has had only 1 affair though and he had genuine feelings for her. I am reasonably certain that he and the OW are having NC but I also accept that having deceived me in the past he could do so again. An A conducted almost entirely during lunch times can be easy to hide and was for my H.

 

He is doing exactly the same thing with me as I see from this board that many MM do with their OW. I am sure (just as an OW would be) that he really means it and feels caught by the situation. A MM trying to sweet talk the OW, is caught in the situation where he has a W (who does not want to split up) and kids and a good life but he also has a relationship in the side. If the W doesn't know then all his efforts go into convincing the OW to stay with him.

 

In my situation where there is a BW and NC with the OW, he is just as caught but this time he is stuck with the fact that he has been unfaithful but he still doesn't want to lose the life with the W and family so all his efforts go into convincing his BW to stay with him.

 

In both cases the MM's behaviour is almost identical. The degree to which he will argue his case, beg and plead for the relationship has been a total eye opener for me. I have no doubt that had my H been in a situation where I remained unaware and the OW started standing up for herself then all this begging and pleading would be directed at her.

 

All I can say is whether one is the BW or the OW - it is very hard to resist the MM when he does this. It would be much easier if all the feelings of love had disappeared long ago.

 

S

Hi Sid, I like your introspective way with dealing with all of this. There are not many OWs around anymore as I suspect they get bashed so often at LS. Maybe they have found more supportive websites.

 

I agree that, for you, understanding the OW helps you understand how your H's A began. Yet, you say he's been unfaithful throughout the M. That is his quirk, his flaw and it concerns me, to tell you the truth. My gut reaction is that he is a serial cheater, CS, and I even wonder if he cheated on the OW and you both. If so, how much will it matter to understand how the A began or the OW for that matter? I hope it is not true, but how do you then explain all his other philandering?

 

I think if someone such as a counselor or a confidant asked him why he does what he does he would probably say he thought he was just crazy because he has all that is good at home and doesn't understand his own motives. You can't really help someone like this. Let me ask, is your H a thrill-seeker? Does he like to fly, ride a motorcycle, go sky diving, etc? It may just be an integral part of his personality to live on the edge. Having and OW may be fulfilling the thrill-seeking part of his personality, albeit part-time, while most of the time he is getting the comfortable life with you.

 

Regarding the type of OW you'd like to concentrate on, I was this type for a long time. When I realized it was toxic I became the more practical type who decided the friendship and other benefits were practical needs being met while going through some chaotic times. But more to the point, I think the OW and the BW have one thing in common: they both loved him deeply before they discovered who he really was. The BW may have taken years to discover what the OW learned in one or two years depending. Firstly, she knew he had the capacity to cheat from the get-go and so begins to investigate all suspicions sooner than any W would. Remember, she is told, usually, the she is the first OW. And at that point she is deeply in love and when she learns more devastating information she finds it easy to forgive him because she is already in love just as the BW is. This is the reason these As linger. I wish more and more could stick with better judgment but that little L word gets in the way.

 

So many of us want to claim that the BW wants to stick their claws into their H's so they don't lose everything but in reality most of the time it is love that drives them to hang on.

 

Hugs,

WF.

[SidLyon]

I don't think this is really fair. I don't think the majority of OW wish anything ill upon the BW even though it is easy to get caught up in the littany of complaints MM's usually have about their W's. Being an OW sucks, and you just want your pain to end; it's not that you are actively wishing pain upon another.

 

 

 

Sid, How do you think things would have been different if the OW was stronger? Wouldn't it be more important to you that your H was strong enough to either not go there or end it himself?

 

I don't really know - I'm possibly misrepresenting her anyway, as in fact she did end the A several years ago. My H was never certain why, but he thought maybe it was that she decided to work on her own marriage. Basically after she ended it he decided his A days were over and so had 3 faithful years. He doesn't really know why she decided to recontact him for a Valentine's day lunch last year - but was hoping the A might be re-kindled. It all took a turn for the worse when her H died a few weeks later. As said to him yesterday if he'd have left things be after the A ended I might never have found out and he could have had the family life with me and the boys, he so craves. So really it's him that was weak. After the OW's H died and then our brother-in-law died a few months later in similar circumstances, it all came unraveling for my H and our family as we were coping with the revelations about my H's infidelity and our brother-in-law's death.

 

Something else to consider, and this may just be the delusional ramblings of someone still caught in the undertow of an MM - but some OW, or I at least always looked at it as the happier path for the BW if she and MM split up. (I thought this for several reasons: it's obvious they weren't meeting each other's needs, he treated her badly - particularly after D-day with lies and nastiness and false hope, and according to him the only thing keeping him there for the last 6 years was the kids. No matter how awful a picture he painted of her, I still figure that everyone deserves to be happy and I knew that wouldn't be with MM, so I thought of it as best that they split - for all of us. )

 

I think that some OW do prefer to believe that life for the MM and his W must be sheer hell. It's very similar to the way BWs demonise OW. My guess is it's not born out in reality.

 

For the record, I also don't buy that divorces "destroy" children. Bad parenting through messy divorces wreaks emotional havoc for kids - it's not the divorce itself. And further, in contentious households, I would argue it's much less toxic for children to have 2 homes. Here again, based on what my MM told me about the awful fights occurring and the BW's frequent physical attacks (even before d-day) I really believe that MM's children would be better off in two, calmer households.

 

No divorce probably doesn't destroy children but it affects them forever. I think it all comes down to the facts of the individual case. There are some environments that are so toxic to children that it's best that the parents not be together.

 

Now, is this what I tell myself so I can sleep at night? Maybe, but I bet you I'm not the only OW that thinks this way.

 

I'm still not getting the right sleep (just adding these words so my post can be accepted).

[White Flower]

To answer your question, yes, I believe he pleads just the same. I got tears from him when I ended it and I have to wonder if she did too. I know he reassured her that nothing was going on while he was reassuring me that he loved me more.

[fooled once]

I don't think this is really fair. I don't think the majority of OW wish anything ill upon the BW even though it is easy to get caught up in the littany of complaints MM's usually have about their W's. Being an OW sucks, and you just want your pain to end; it's not that you are actively wishing pain upon another.

 

I disagree Misty. I think it is a competition. I think many OW, myself included, figured I was the better woman, i could make him happy in ways she couldn't, blah blah blah. Of course, this was only because I was hearing his version of the marriage -- how mean the wife was, how she wouldn't have sex with him, etc. Who knows the actual truth? Him and his wife.

 

 

Sid, How do you think things would have been different if the OW was stronger? Wouldn't it be more important to you that your H was strong enough to either not go there or end it himself?

 

Something else to consider, and this may just be the delusional ramblings of someone still caught in the undertow of an MM - but some OW, or I at least always looked at it as the happier path for the BW if she and MM split up. (I thought this for several reasons: it's obvious they weren't meeting each other's needs, he treated her badly - particularly after D-day with lies and nastiness and false hope, and according to him the only thing keeping him there for the last 6 years was the kids. No matter how awful a picture he painted of her, I still figure that everyone deserves to be happy and I knew that wouldn't be with MM, so I thought of it as best that they split - for all of us. )

 

I think this is what OW tell themselves. I mean, what OW doesn't think the BW would be better off without her husband? That is what we have to tell ourselves IMHO. I mean, do you really think OW thing "yeah, he is a good guy, she should stay with him? And again, the OW is only hearing the version from the MM. No married man is going to tell the woman he is having an affair with that his marriage is fabulous, he adores his wife, sex is great, etc.

 

For the record, I also don't buy that divorces "destroy" children. Bad parenting through messy divorces wreaks emotional havoc for kids - it's not the divorce itself. And further, in contentious households, I would argue it's much less toxic for children to have 2 homes. Here again, based on what my MM told me about the awful fights occurring and the BW's frequent physical attacks (even before d-day) I really believe that MM's children would be better off in two, calmer households.

 

I agree with you. A happy single home is better than a tension filled, unhappy, unsettled married home. Divorce is not the stigma is use to be. Unfortunately, too many people get married too young, too quickly, etc and then start having kids before they even really know how to be man and wife. I wouldn't put much stock in what your MM tells you though -- again, he isn't going to tell you life at home is wonderful.

 

Now, is this what I tell myself so I can sleep at night? Maybe, but I bet you I'm not the only OW that thinks this way.

 

Sid, I hope you find the happiness and settledness that you deserve and should have. I just wonder, how can you trust him since he has had so many affairs?

[SidLyon]

Hi Sid, I

 

...Yet, you say he's been unfaithful throughout the M. That is his quirk, his flaw and it concerns me, to tell you the truth. My gut reaction is that he is a serial cheater, CS, and I even wonder if he cheated on the OW and you both. If so, how much will it matter to understand how the A began or the OW for that matter? I hope it is not true, but how do you then explain all his other philandering?

 

His other philandering was at massage parlours; and it did continue while his A was going on. The OW was horrified when she found out and yes I told her about it. When the A ended he made a decision to end that part of his life but was unable to stick with it when she re-contacted him out of the blue early last year. After her H died he went off the deep end and joined an internet dating website, meeting several women from that. The only sex my H had outside marriage was either with the OW or sex workers as he was never very successful with women. As I've said he is very shy. It must be obvious to all now that my H has problems with self esteem. From what he says the OW was a huge boost to him, although he now says it's been the worst thing that ever happened to him. This is totally humiliating for me to admit.

 

...Let me ask, is your H a thrill-seeker? Does he like to fly, ride a motorcycle, go sky diving, etc? It may just be an integral part of his personality to live on the edge. Having and OW may be fulfilling the thrill-seeking part of his personality, albeit part-time, while most of the time he is getting the comfortable life with you.

 

My H is not obviously a thrill seeker - he is a very quiet introverted man. However he has always had a rich fantasy life in his head where he goes on fantastic adventures and women fall all over him. He writes wonderful stories about it so I have always known of it - he is extremely creative and is also a talented musician. What I had failed to realise was that not all of it was just in his head.

[MistyK]

Sid,

Also to answer the original question - I think it is pretty much the same. When I left MM the 1st time, he cried and pleaded, he sent emails and called. Another time he cried and came over with flowers...you get the idea. Now, he claims he has never broken down and pleaded with the BW to stay with him, but he has broken down and cried while apologizing for all the pain he caused her (but still continued the affair).

 

My MM agreed to go to marriage counseling shortly before d-day because he'd been starting to have conversations with her about wanting to leave her. He went to MC with her so he could feel like he "tried". After D-day, even the counselor told BW that MM had no intention of stopping contact with me, despite whatever he'd say. So obviously, that wasn't really trying, and I know for a fact that he lied to her many times saying he'd stopped contact with me when he hadn't. (Naturally, he wouldn't tell me he did this until months later because he knew it would piss me off that he was still trying to have it both ways by lying to her.) His explanation for doing so was that he wanted to focus of his leaving the M to be about the M failing, not about me. Stupidly I bought that - but the truth is he wanted it both ways and was too much of a coward to be decisive one way or the other.

 

In the end it sounds like you're looking for some way to verify that your husband's intentions are pure. I'd have much more faith in that if he was a one-time cheater, rather than a serial cheater. Is he in individual counseling to address that issue? I'd feel better about it if he was, but even that's not a guarantee. (My MM viewed his therapist as a sort of father figure, so he'd often withold details/not tell the whole truth just so he wouldn't disappoint the therapist, and as we all know, that's not a recipe for progress.)

[MistyK]

Wow Sid, I just saw your last post. It sounds like you may have a sex-addict on your hands. In the end, that's why I left my M, I couldn't deal with my H's addiction to sex and alcohol anymore. There are 12-step groups for sex-addicts and you might find it interesting to read Pia Mellody's "Facing Love Addiction".

 

The real trouble with sex-addicts, like any other addict, is that they will do whatever they have to do to gain access to their high. Until he gets real help for the addiction, you'd do well to assume everything he tells you is a lie.

 

Have you been tested for STD's? If he's had these kinds of issues, I'm worried about your safety, especially if his "addiction" remains unaddressed - meaning you're still at risk to get something as a result of his continued escapades.

 

You have nothing to be ashamed about. Your husband's issues are not reflective of any failure on your part. Take care of yourself. ((Sid))

[SidLyon]

Sid,

Also to answer the original question - I think it is pretty much the same. When I left MM the 1st time, he cried and pleaded, he sent emails and called. Another time he cried and came over with flowers...you get the idea. Now, he claims he has never broken down and pleaded with the BW to stay with him, but he has broken down and cried while apologizing for all the pain he caused her (but still continued the affair).

 

My MM agreed to go to marriage counseling shortly before d-day because he'd been starting to have conversations with her about wanting to leave her. He went to MC with her so he could feel like he "tried". After D-day, even the counselor told BW that MM had no intention of stopping contact with me, despite whatever he'd say. So obviously, that wasn't really trying, and I know for a fact that he lied to her many times saying he'd stopped contact with me when he hadn't. (Naturally, he wouldn't tell me he did this until months later because he knew it would piss me off that he was still trying to have it both ways by lying to her.) His explanation for doing so was that he wanted to focus of his leaving the M to be about the M failing, not about me. Stupidly I bought that - but the truth is he wanted it both ways and was too much of a coward to be decisive one way or the other.

 

In the end it sounds like you're looking for some way to verify that your husband's intentions are pure. I'd have much more faith in that if he was a one-time cheater, rather than a serial cheater. Is he in individual counseling to address that issue? I'd feel better about it if he was, but even that's not a guarantee. (My MM viewed his therapist as a sort of father figure, so he'd often withold details/not tell the whole truth just so he wouldn't disappoint the therapist, and as we all know, that's not a recipe for progress.)

 

Yes I suppose I'm looking for that magic guarantee that my H's intentions are as he's stated them and more importantly that he can follow through.

 

Do sex workers count as serial cheating? I think yes but they are actually indicative of a very different problem - my H is getting counseling for this even though it's been several years now.

 

S

[SidLyon]

Wow Sid, I just saw your last post. It sounds like you may have a sex-addict on your hands. In the end, that's why I left my M, I couldn't deal with my H's addiction to sex and alcohol anymore. There are 12-step groups for sex-addicts and you might find it interesting to read Pia Mellody's "Facing Love Addiction".

 

The real trouble with sex-addicts, like any other addict, is that they will do whatever they have to do to gain access to their high. Until he gets real help for the addiction, you'd do well to assume everything he tells you is a lie.

 

Have you been tested for STD's? If he's had these kinds of issues, I'm worried about your safety, especially if his "addiction" remains unaddressed - meaning you're still at risk to get something as a result of his continued escapades.

 

You have nothing to be ashamed about. Your husband's issues are not reflective of any failure on your part. Take care of yourself. ((Sid))

 

Yes Misty that is what his counseling has been about and I have had the tests.

 

For what it's worth there have been no sex workers for several years now; and apart from once it was massages only. He said the "full services" was a major disappointment. I think he prefers to embellish it in his head anyway.

 

His psychologist seems pleased with how he is going. But naturally I have doubts - addictions are hard to beat and for many people they are something that has to always be kept under control. I love my H and want to assist but ultimately I'm his W not his rescuer.

 

S

[MistyK]

Yes I suppose I'm looking for that magic guarantee that my H's intentions are as he's stated them and more importantly that he can follow through.

 

Do sex workers count as serial cheating? I think yes but they are actually indicative of a very different problem - my H is getting counseling for this even though it's been several years now.

 

S

 

Yes, in some ways I think serial cheating with sex-workers is worse, because it shows his consistent interest is in sex devoid of emotion. Especially if this has gone on for years, one tends to become desensitized to "regular" sex with a love partner (that's what happened with my H and I couldn't deal with it). I suppose it's easier to blow off cheating with sex workers BECAUSE there's no emotion involved, but actually, that makes it MORE of a concern for me.

 

Perhaps he needs a new counselor, or maybe he needs to go to groups for sex-addicts. I'm guessing that like most other addicts he's not telling his counselor when he "falls off the wagon" or even sees the warning signs that he's about to fall.

 

Of note with addicts that that relapse really is part of recovery - so do you think this was a relapse on the road to recovery which will help him move on, or merely a resumption of things that aren't really being worked on?

 

Also, please be aware that minimization is part of the addiction. If he says it was only once he went all the way, he's likely lying, you can probably safely at least double whatever he says to approximate reality...ditto for the frequency of his visits at the massage parlor.

[SidLyon]

Yes, in some ways I think serial cheating with sex-workers is worse, because it shows his consistent interest is in sex devoid of emotion. Especially if this has gone on for years, one tends to become desensitized to "regular" sex with a love partner (that's what happened with my H and I couldn't deal with it). I suppose it's easier to blow off cheating with sex workers BECAUSE there's no emotion involved, but actually, that makes it MORE of a concern for me.

 

Perhaps he needs a new counselor, or maybe he needs to go to groups for sex-addicts. I'm guessing that like most other addicts he's not telling his counselor when he "falls off the wagon" or even sees the warning signs that he's about to fall.

 

Of note with addicts that that relapse really is part of recovery - so do you think this was a relapse on the road to recovery which will help him move on, or merely a resumption of things that aren't really being worked on?

 

Yes the sex without feeling/emotion is hard for me to deal with.

 

As far as I know the relapse wasn't with the sex workers - when the A ended he decided to put it all behind him - ie the sex workers and any thoughts of affairs. However when the OW contacted him again he got renewed interest in the A but when her H died (and she temporarily wasn't interested in him) he joined the internet site instead of the sex workers. So having written this I suppose it was a relapse of sorts.

 

Basically the sex workers were also used at times during the A when she wasn't having sex with my H (ie when she was recovering after the birth of her baby). It seems to be a pattern with him when he feels abandoned by his primary sex partner whoever that may be - W or OW.

 

If we are to recover our marriage we have major issues to overcome. if he and I part then he will like as not still have his issues. i hate to think that one day the responsibility of dealing with his problems may fall on my children - perhaps n the same way I have to deal with my own mother's mental illness.

 

Uggh

 

S

[2sunny]

when i read a thread or respond to a post - it is not in judgment... it is only from my ability to feel compassionate about either side.

 

for me, i had already given my (nowx)H a chance to chance and to never cheat again. ten years later (at the 20 year mark) it happened again. he thought i was just nice little me and i would again forgive him...

 

he was out! faster than he could get home from his weekend away with the MOW.

 

his reaction? what? paid for me to go back to our usual counselor and all... i walked in and told her - i'm not about to go back... what? to spend the rest of my life wondering when the next time is again... and who he's with every time he's away from the house? no way!

 

EVERYONE was shocked! but you know what? I FELT A PEACE OF MIND I HADN'T FELT IN 20 YEARS! i no longer had to wonder! what a beautiful thing!

 

we had an amazing marriage and a million reasons why it was awesome.

 

he just couldn't NOT cheat... he felt totally entitled - kind of like - look honey, i am a gorgeous guy and women just love me - so i need to spread the love attitude...

 

never was there any consideration for my feelings, the kids, the extended big families... NOTHING! so, I DON'T FEEL BAD ABOUT IT. it is a relief.

 

my feelings toward any of the OW? i feel terrible for their position... they deserve better. they deserve to live by a healthy and happy boundary too.

 

if it's not good enough though, get out! it doesn't look unhappy when a person is willing to be true to the integrity of what happy looks like. to wait and wonder and agonize every day of "i wonder if he?" is TOO PAINFUL!

 

start living folks... it's really not as scary as we make it in our minds... it's when we get STUCK that it all becomes to look not happy.

 

we are all here to learn, to support each other and to grow as better people.

 

i don't care if you are a MM, MW, OW, OM, BS, WS - to me it's always interesting to see anyone's perspective and to try to help that individual find their way to some daily life that looks happy for THEM. i just always hope that if they are looking for an answer - that they are willing to take action necessary that will allow them the peace of mind that anyone deserve.

 

there are LOTS of people here that helped me with that whole perspective 4-5 years ago... and i thank them so much... i could never begin to tell you who they all are... but it was a huge mix of people from lots of areas of this forum.

 

decide on a healthy, happy boundary for YOU - then stick to it... the end result will always look happier than the waiting and wondering.

[norajane]

Sorry to be ignorant but can anyone please help with how to get replies properly interspersed?

 

S

 

If you are interspersing into one person's post:

 

- select the Quote button at the end of their post

- at the end of the sentence or paragraph where you want to add your comments, type

. This will place their text in a separate box when you submit your reply.

- add your comments

- using your mouse or cursor highlight the next sentence or paragraph that you want to comment on

- select the little square bubble icon on the menu above where you type your posts. It looks like the bubble in comic strips when people speak, with a little tail. The menu bar is all the little pictures above the reply box where you type replies. Selecting the bubble will wrap QUOTE tags around the paragraph which will set it off in a separate box. {QUOTE} starts the quote box, and {/QUOTE} ends the box. Although you don't use the {} parens; you use the [ ] parens.

- add your comments

- highlight the text you want to quote, select the bubble or type in the quote tags. add your comments.

 

If you are commenting on multiple people's posts:

 

- Select the quotation mark (") button at the bottom of the post you want to quote

- Continue selecting the quotation mark button for each post you want to quote

- When you are done selecting quotes, select the Post Reply button.

- All the posts you selected will appear in the reply box

- Type in your comments in between each quoted post

 

You can delete text from the posts if you don't want to quote the whole thing, or only want to quote a sentence or paragraph.

 

 

Alternate method: Copy and paste only the text you want to quote. Highlight each selection you want to set off in a box. Select the bubble icon or type in the QUOTE and /QUOTE tags in parens [].

[MistyK]

 

Basically the sex workers were also used at times during the A when she wasn't having sex with my H (ie when she was recovering after the birth of her baby). It seems to be a pattern with him when he feels abandoned by his primary sex partner whoever that may be - W or OW.

 

If we are to recover our marriage we have major issues to overcome. if he and I part then he will like as not still have his issues. i hate to think that one day the responsibility of dealing with his problems may fall on my children - perhaps n the same way I have to deal with my own mother's mental illness.

 

Uggh

 

S

 

Hmmm....I would bet that he got massages and went surfing the internet even when he wasn't "abandoned" by his primary sex partner - if he's framing his actions for you this way it sounds like he's putting the responsibility for his inappropriate behavior on you (ie: if you don't have sex with me when I want you to, I have no choice but to go over here). At least in my case, even when I was having sex with my H, he still surfed porn for at least 4 hours every day. EVERY DAY.

 

His problems will not be your children's responsibility - hopefully you teach them good boundaries so they don't get sucked into his world. The worst thing we codependents do is teach our kids to do the same...set up good boundaries yourself and your kids will learn by example.