HsMomma Posted June 30, 2009 Posted June 30, 2009 I think women like this are truly the most delusional people on the planet. Do whatever makes you happy, honey - she's living in a dream world and she's lucky you're still around. Seriously? A man who would have no problem lying to/cheating on his wife & SHE'S the lucky one?????
Mr. Lucky Posted June 30, 2009 Posted June 30, 2009 Thanks to all for your feedback/suggestions. Both my wife and I know that we would have divorced a long time ago if we didnt have a child together. The child is almost 18 years old, but a divorce would be financially devastating to all concerned, and emotionally hard on our daughter. As far as working on the marriage, it has reached a point of no return and we both have accepted this marriage of convenience. I know it is immoral to go behind her back and pay for sex, but it seems the 'safest' option. An affair is sooner or later discovered. Old joke: Q: Why is divorce so expensive? A: Because it's worth it! asireen, interesting that you post about how empty your life is without a satisfying sexual relationship and yet you've got every stock reason in the world why you won't take any steps to get what you say you want. Are you sure that the issue is really with your wife ??? Mr. Lucky
Author asireen Posted June 30, 2009 Author Posted June 30, 2009 Seriously? A man who would have no problem lying to/cheating on his wife & SHE'S the lucky one????? In the 'morality' department, I agree I am the immoral one. At this age (north of 40), I am not looking for love or companionship. The best years for romance are behind me. I dont want to lose half my assets in a divorce settlement. I am paying for my daughter's private school education and will support her for college also. I am a good man, just like my wife is a good woman. We are just not sexually compatible. HsMomma said "you need to man up & be a good person too". Me paying for sex makes me immoral, no doubt, but does not make me a bad person. Thanks again to all of you for giving feedback, whether positive or negative. I appreciate ALL of it.
Jersey Shortie Posted June 30, 2009 Posted June 30, 2009 What she does not know, it does not hurt. To keep it secret will be my responsibility, if it happens. Some friends suggested I go to Thailand for a couple of weeks. It seems it is a great sex tourist destination, and prostitution is legal over there. According to them, there are lots of 'new and different' experiences to be had. Although, for some reason they warned not to get too involved in this as it may be very addictive That sounds great. You should book a trip right away. I hear they like the young ones in Thailand. Infact, I think more men should behave just like you are. I mean, women are pretty much crap to be ****ted on right? That's pretty much how your treating your woman. You can make excuses and justifcations any way you like. And yes, how can she be hurt by what she doesn't know. But you are making her accept a life with a man that has no respect for her and no pride in her or his family. You are taking away her choices, her freedoms, what she wants her life to be. No one is saying you have to sta ywith her. Infact, I think most people would like to see you man up and let her decide where she wants to go from here. Instead, you cower behind your own justifcations and force a life on her that she might never know about, but will be her life none-the-less. A life where your friends will support you in paying for sex and you can disrespect her everytime you ask your friends for advice on how to cheat her out of a life you previously commiteed yourself to with her. By the way, you never answered my question. Would you like another man to treat your daughter the way you are treating your daughter's mother?
HsMomma Posted June 30, 2009 Posted June 30, 2009 In the 'morality' department, I agree I am the immoral one. At this age (north of 40), I am not looking for love or companionship. The best years for romance are behind me. I dont want to lose half my assets in a divorce settlement. I am paying for my daughter's private school education and will support her for college also. I am a good man, just like my wife is a good woman. We are just not sexually compatible. HsMomma said "you need to man up & be a good person too". Me paying for sex makes me immoral, no doubt, but does not make me a bad person. Thanks again to all of you for giving feedback, whether positive or negative. I appreciate ALL of it. No, your paying for sex makes you immoral, but the lying/secrecy is what makes for a bad person.
Angel1111 Posted June 30, 2009 Posted June 30, 2009 Seriously? A man who would have no problem lying to/cheating on his wife & SHE'S the lucky one????? I love this. This is exactly the attitude I'm talking about. A spouse can reject you for years, behave as they please, say what they please, treat you like a sperm donar and bank - but because you're under a 'contract' with them, you're the liar and cheater if you feel trapped and driven to find alternatives to peace and happiness. Right. I can tell you this for certain, if I had a spouse who rejected me over and over, year after year, and then had the balls to so flippantly tell me to go play with myself in place of making love to me, it would be the last thing they'd say before they were served with divorce papers. Again - she's REALLY lucky he's still around because she cheated him far worse than he cheated her. You can argue about this all day long, but try it out on your spouse and see how long you stay happily married.
HsMomma Posted June 30, 2009 Posted June 30, 2009 I love this. This is exactly the attitude I'm talking about. A spouse can reject you for years, behave as they please, say what they please, treat you like a sperm donar and bank - but because you're under a 'contract' with them, you're the liar and cheater if you feel trapped and driven to find alternatives to peace and happiness. Right. I can tell you this for certain, if I had a spouse who rejected me over and over, year after year, and then had the balls to so flippantly tell me to go play with myself in place of making love to me, it would be the last thing they'd say before they were served with divorce papers. Again - she's REALLY lucky he's still around because she cheated him far worse than he cheated her. You can argue about this all day long, but try it out on your spouse and see how long you stay happily married. My point exactly & my suggestion to the OP - get out of the marriage, then you're free to find all the "alternatives to peace & happiness" your little heart desires. I am not saying he doesn't have a right to be unhappy & to go elsewhere, but get out of the marriage FIRST. You can play the blame game all you want (she cheated him "worse than he cheated her"), but the fact remains, while granted she's not been an intimate spouse with him, she's been with HIM - he's talking a whole new realm of sexual experience. Paying for it? Keeping it a secret? I'll use your own words back to you, Angel - try it out on your spouse & see how long YOU stay happily married.
Angel1111 Posted June 30, 2009 Posted June 30, 2009 My point exactly & my suggestion to the OP - get out of the marriage, then you're free to find all the "alternatives to peace & happiness" your little heart desires. I am not saying he doesn't have a right to be unhappy & to go elsewhere, but get out of the marriage FIRST. You can play the blame game all you want (she cheated him "worse than he cheated her"), but the fact remains, while granted she's not been an intimate spouse with him, she's been with HIM - he's talking a whole new realm of sexual experience. Paying for it? Keeping it a secret? I'll use your own words back to you, Angel - try it out on your spouse & see how long YOU stay happily married. This is the infamous trap, though, and you're making it too simplistic. Most of the time - after 20+ years of marriage - the cost to walk away is so high that their years of work goes out the window, and his life is never the same agian. There are lots of spouses who know this and they use it for everything they can. They think that because it would be so painful and financially devastating to leave, that they've got their spouse right where they want them. I see this quite often and it makes me sick. It's a mistake to underestimate the power of money, and the devastation that it can bring when you've lost it. This is why people have affairs or do what this guy is considering. They feel trapped, and feel that no matter which way they turn, they're screwed. When people do this to other people, it's like cornering a wild animal and then acting surprised when it attacks you. That's why I think they're the most delusional people on the planet. The bigger point is - who's the bad guy here, if you must have a bad guy. Is it him, or is it her for driving him to this point? Who is she that she cares so little about him, and about the security of her home, family, and child? And to answer your last question, if I felt compelled to do that to a spouse, then it would mean that I realized a long time ago that there would be no 'happy marriage' and I wouldn't really care about such a person or the marriage. It wouldn't matter at that point. You missed my point about what I said earlier.
HsMomma Posted June 30, 2009 Posted June 30, 2009 This is the infamous trap, though, and you're making it too simplistic. Most of the time - after 20+ years of marriage - the cost to walk away is so high that their years of work goes out the window, and his life is never the same agian. There are lots of spouses who know this and they use it for everything they can. They think that because it would be so painful and financially devastating to leave, that they've got their spouse right where they want them. I see this quite often and it makes me sick. It's a mistake to underestimate the power of money, and the devastation that it can bring when you've lost it. This is why people have affairs or do what this guy is considering. They feel trapped, and feel that no matter which way they turn, they're screwed. When people do this to other people, it's like cornering a wild animal and then acting surprised when it attacks you. That's why I think they're the most delusional people on the planet. The bigger point is - who's the bad guy here, if you must have a bad guy. Is it him, or is it her for driving him to this point? Who is she that she cares so little about him, and about the security of her home, family, and child? And to answer your last question, if I felt compelled to do that to a spouse, then it would mean that I realized a long time ago that there would be no 'happy marriage' and I wouldn't really care about such a person or the marriage. It wouldn't matter at that point. You missed my point about what I said earlier. How am I making it too simplistic, Angel? I'm not trying to be argumentative - just to understand what you're saying. Are you saying it's all about financial situations, as the bolded part above implies? I personally don't HAVE to have a bad guy, here, Angel - this isn't my life situation we're discussing. I'm just trying to say that 2 wrongs don't make a right - she withholds, he resents, then he does out & does wrong & that makes everything ok? Don't you see how warped that is? I guess I really DID miss your point earlier when talking about the person &/or marriage. What you said was "I can tell you this for certain, if I had a spouse who rejected me over and over, year after year, and then had the balls to so flippantly tell me to go play with myself in place of making love to me, it would be the last thing they'd say before they were served with divorce papers." Not sure what part of that I missed, but it seemed pretty clear cut to me. You seemed to agree with me that you'd get out FIRST before going after sex elsewhere...incorrect?
sxyNYCcpl Posted June 30, 2009 Posted June 30, 2009 No one is saying you have to sta ywith her. Infact, I think most people would like to see you man up and let her decide where she wants to go from here. Instead, you cower behind your own justifcations and force a life on her that she might never know about, but will be her life none-the-less. A life where your friends will support you in paying for sex and you can disrespect her everytime you ask your friends for advice on how to cheat her out of a life you previously commiteed yourself to with her. I agree with you in principal that he should just divorce and get it over with, as another poster pointed out from a child's perspective it's better to have happy divorced parents than miserable married ones. That said, unless the OP is overstating the case, she hasn't earned and does not deserve his fidelity, and that's coming from a guy who hates cheaters. Forcing someone into lifelong chastity, against their will and with no explicit agreement ahead of time, is wholly unreasonable, and expecting a scorned spouse to have no more of a sex life than spanking it in the shower is untenable. The expectation of monogamy within a relationship is one thing, to unilaterally demand sologamy (yes, made-up word) is quite another. Of course, my guess is that his wife really wouldn't care one way or the other. Although I think the brothels outside of Las Vegas are a better bet than Thailand.
HsMomma Posted June 30, 2009 Posted June 30, 2009 I agree with you in principal that he should just divorce and get it over with, as another poster pointed out from a child's perspective it's better to have happy divorced parents than miserable married ones. That said, unless the OP is overstating the case, she hasn't earned and does not deserve his fidelity, and that's coming from a guy who hates cheaters. Forcing someone into lifelong chastity, against their will and with no explicit agreement ahead of time, is wholly unreasonable, and expecting a scorned spouse to have no more of a sex life than spanking it in the shower is untenable. The expectation of monogamy within a relationship is one thing, to unilaterally demand sologamy (yes, made-up word) is quite another. Of course, my guess is that his wife really wouldn't care one way or the other. Although I think the brothels outside of Las Vegas are a better bet than Thailand. Based solely on what the OP has said, I agree - TO A POINT. While she hasn't necessarily earned or deserved his fidelity, she does deserve to not have to deal with lies & deceitful behavior, not to mention possible STDs from those lovely ladies one pays for the pleasure to be with:o. By the way, I like "sologamy" - new word for the day! And though she may indeed not care, shouldn't that choice be theirs to make? As I pointed out earlier, it may be that she just doesn't want to be intimate with him - in which case, divorce would be a much better alternative for both of them.
Darth Vader Posted June 30, 2009 Posted June 30, 2009 What she does not know, it does not hurt. To keep it secret will be my responsibility, if it happens. Some friends suggested I go to Thailand for a couple of weeks. It seems it is a great sex tourist destination, and prostitution is legal over there. According to them, there are lots of 'new and different' experiences to be had. Although, for some reason they warned not to get too involved in this as it may be very addictive. It's also a great way to get A.I.D.S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thailand has a high Aids ratio. BTW, cheating is not going to fix the problem, neither is paying for sex. Your wife may have very low libido, fix that problem, and she may be mauling you. How old is she, if she's in her 30's, she may have a major desire to increase her Riding abilities, if ya know what I mean! You need to come clean about the other woman, she may know already, or not.
sxyNYCcpl Posted June 30, 2009 Posted June 30, 2009 not to mention possible STDs from those lovely ladies one pays for the pleasure to be with:o. If, as I suggested, he sticks to the legal ones in Nevada, the chances of catching an STD are only barely higher than having sex with a bonafide virgin. Not to mention that even if he DID catch something, she would have to actually have sex with him later to catch it. After 5 years of sologamy, I'm not holding my breath. And though she may indeed not care, shouldn't that choice be theirs to make? As I pointed out earlier, it may be that she just doesn't want to be intimate with him - in which case, divorce would be a much better alternative for both of them.Agreed, he should divorce her if she won't, or can't fix this. Part of the reason I got divorced was because of a lack of sexual intimacy, so I've been there. However, if he's hardheaded and won't she has no right to expect him to live like a monk. Frankly, were I him and couldn't divorce for some reason, I'd go out of my way to make sure she KNEW I had decided to sow my oats, but that's just me. Unless there's a good medical reason, I wouldn't make it to 5 months.
Jersey Shortie Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 That said, unless the OP is overstating the case, she hasn't earned and does not deserve his fidelity, and that's coming from a guy who hates cheaters. Forcing someone into lifelong chastity, against their will and with no explicit agreement ahead of time, is wholly unreasonable, and expecting a scorned spouse to have no more of a sex life than spanking it in the shower is untenable. The expectation of monogamy within a relationship is one thing, to unilaterally demand sologamy (yes, made-up word) is quite another. Of course, my guess is that his wife really wouldn't care one way or the other. Although I think the brothels outside of Las Vegas are a better bet than Thailand. Hey I am with you that he shouldn't have to live a life where he doesn't get to enjoy the pleasure of sex anymore. But her choice not to have to sex with him doesn't give him free reign to go behind her back and sleep with other women. If he wants to sleep with other women, then he should tell her. Especially because he doesn't, neither do you, know the real reason behind the lack of sex. Often men are too lazy or afraid to get to the heart of the matter. I mean really GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER. It's much easier to turn our cheek and walk the other way then walk right into the fire. But in any relationship, you got to walk into the fire sometimes. I am not offended that he wants to pay women for sex. I am offended that a man with a wife and a daughter feels that he gets to make a choice for his SO, force her to live a life she didn't sign up for, basically doing the same thing to her that she is doing to him that has lead him to be so unhappy. He is not being honest with himself or with his wife. No offense but a man like that doesn't deserve any respect. And rather bothered by the causual mention of a third world nation and going over there to use the girls and women who are in those positions because they have no other options. Those women don't serve men because they just love to do it. Get real.
Author asireen Posted July 1, 2009 Author Posted July 1, 2009 Thank you all for being direct and blunt. I deserve the harsh words some of you have for me and in an ideal and rational world, you are correct. If sex were not an issue, ours would be a good, if not a perfect marriage. As my wife, she will inherit all that is mine (and ours), and that will not change. I am not going to ask her for a separation or divorce. I will take my chances and see how it goes. If she asks me for a divorce, I absolutely do NOT want another marriage. Thanks for cautioning me about AIDS and other STDs, I will take the necessary precautions, including avoiding women below 21 years old. By your responses I know that a large majority of you would condemn my actions, I understand that. We agree to disagree. A small minority (thanks Angel1111), probably some 40+ men like me, those who can empathize with my situation, may give me silent approval.
Mr. Lucky Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 Thank you all for being direct and blunt. I deserve the harsh words some of you have for me and in an ideal and rational world, you are correct. If sex were not an issue, ours would be a good, if not a perfect marriage. I have a hard time believing that, given the unhappiness that led you post here, the non-sexual part of your marriage is as healthy as you describe it. Tension, anger, resentment and hostility are all understandable by-products of the situation you describe. I'm sure you're civil to each other, but happy - I doubt it. There's a way to fix it, but no pain, no gain. I think the irony is that your proposed course of action has the biggest chance of upsetting your status quo. Keep us posted... Mr. Lucky
giotto Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 I don't quite understand why you posted here... to vent? You are unhappy, you don't get sex, you buy it. You don't want to divorce, your wife tells you to take care of yourself (nice!). You cheat. Fair enough by me, but are you looking for some kind of approval? I do understand, but I do not approve of your behaviour. Sorry if you would lose everything, but it's just bad luck, especially with arranged marriages... you don't know what you are gonna get... just divorce her and get on with your life, even if you end up broke, you'll be happy...
Toodamnpragmatic Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 I always think it is interesting to see where these discussions go and to re-read the OP and other posts from him or her as more info is divulged.... Married 20 years, no sex before, wife referred to as "Ice Queen" by others.... Daughter 18 + 9 months conception, sex good before that..... Thus good sex fro under 2 years and then 1X/mth for 13 years as a "favour" and none the last 5 years.... He is stubborn, refuses to address the situation with his wife (probably fruitless), blames separation or divorce not an option due to an "adult" child. I like the idea of asking his wife to find him an escort.... I'd suggest she help post his profile on Ashley Madison (http://www.AshleyMadison.com)..... And you wonder why he is thinking those things..... I am so sorry for him.....
giotto Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 ok, I misunderstood what you meant by "marriage of convenience"... it's obviously not an "arranged marriage"... so, not a lot you can do, mate... you are stuck. She is obviously not budging, so it's up to you: carry on paying (wouldn't go to Thailand, though), use your hand (as your wife kindly suggests) or divorce her... what would happen if you told her about your "indiscretions"?
HsMomma Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 He is stubborn, refuses to address the situation with his wife (probably fruitless), blames separation or divorce not an option due to an "adult" child. And you wonder why he is thinking those things..... I am so sorry for him..... I, too, am sorry for anyone who has lost (or maybe never really had) the true intimacy inherent in a good marriage. Please, OP, don't think I don't feel bad about your situation. My problem is the WAY you want to go about "taking care of the problem." No, TDP, I don't wonder why he is thinking those things, I just don't get why he can't lay (no pun intended, folks!) it on the line with his wife & TELL her that he has needs that aren't being met & see what the result of that conversation would be. If it were to continue after that conversation and she basically tells him to either take care of himself or whatever & she honestly doesn't care how he gets his pleasure, seems only right to me to tell the person you've been married to for decades what your next course of action is. Do I advocate throwing down the gauntlet per se? Not necessarily, but I think she needs to be made to understand that this isn't just an issue for the OP - it's an ISSUE for the OP. It is possible that she doesn't understand the seriousness or depth of his feelings & he needs to make sure he communicates that to her. That's all I've been trying to say.
Gamine Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 In the 'morality' department, I agree I am the immoral one. At this age (north of 40), I am not looking for love or companionship. The best years for romance are behind me. I dont want to lose half my assets in a divorce settlement. I am paying for my daughter's private school education and will support her for college also. I am a good man, just like my wife is a good woman. We are just not sexually compatible. HsMomma said "you need to man up & be a good person too". Me paying for sex makes me immoral, no doubt, but does not make me a bad person. Thanks again to all of you for giving feedback, whether positive or negative. I appreciate ALL of it. One can minimize the spiritual basis for the marriage vow in light of today's societal mores. It seems to be a favorite pastime here on LS which I find personally sad and unfortunate. Notwithstanding our subjective concepts of 'right and wrong' there are infinite spiritual truths that no social more can undo. Our downward spiral of values and morals can be something that we embrace or something that we view as a challenge. A question being presented to us, individually, asking us... for once and for all... who we really are. What we really stand for. It seems that some have explanations for doing the wrong thing under the caveat that it may be wrong... but gee, it's right for me... Yet, there is a moral standard and we will be held accountable for what we do in our lives. We have witnesses to everything we do, say, or think. And when our bodies die, these witnesses are called and we are held to account for each and every one of these acts. This is a reality that none can escape. So, the OP has stated that what she doesn't know won't hurt her. Perhaps. But it will hurt him. He will bear the sin of infidelity/adultery and he will have a very large black mark against his own character for which he will be judged. The sin here is not only sex outside of the marriage in defiance of a vow taken in the presence of God, but the lying and betrayal it presents as its playground. It is the lying and deceit that is the greater sin... the adultery is merely its way to be manifest. Ultimately, everyone has the right to choice. This man can go with hookers or go to Thailand for the ultimate in sexual indulgence. Or he can be a man and if he is half the sexual 'gift' to womankind he wishes to view himself as... he should turn his focus to his wife and turn her around. Heal the relationship instead of taking care of oneself. Heal the marriage instead of selling out to be a lost soul. Perhaps the wife would never know about his sexual escapades, but God would know and this mark will live with him eternally. There is no getting away with anything.
Toodamnpragmatic Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 One can minimize the spiritual basis for the marriage vow in light of today's societal mores. It seems to be a favorite pastime here on LS which I find personally sad and unfortunate. Notwithstanding our subjective concepts of 'right and wrong' there are infinite spiritual truths that no social more can undo. Our downward spiral of values and morals can be something that we embrace or something that we view as a challenge. A question being presented to us, individually, asking us... for once and for all... who we really are. What we really stand for. It seems that some have explanations for doing the wrong thing under the caveat that it may be wrong... but gee, it's right for me... Yet, there is a moral standard and we will be held accountable for what we do in our lives. We have witnesses to everything we do, say, or think. And when our bodies die, these witnesses are called and we are held to account for each and every one of these acts. This is a reality that none can escape. So, the OP has stated that what she doesn't know won't hurt her. Perhaps. But it will hurt him. He will bear the sin of infidelity/adultery and he will have a very large black mark against his own character for which he will be judged. The sin here is not only sex outside of the marriage in defiance of a vow taken in the presence of God, but the lying and betrayal it presents as its playground. It is the lying and deceit that is the greater sin... the adultery is merely its way to be manifest. Ultimately, everyone has the right to choice. This man can go with hookers or go to Thailand for the ultimate in sexual indulgence. Or he can be a man and if he is half the sexual 'gift' to womankind he wishes to view himself as... he should turn his focus to his wife and turn her around. Heal the relationship instead of taking care of oneself. Heal the marriage instead of selling out to be a lost soul. Perhaps the wife would never know about his sexual escapades, but God would know and this mark will live with him eternally. There is no getting away with anything. You may be right, but I admit when I see the word God, I skim through the rest. Please don't use that reference, when we see the Mark Sandford's and many many other spiritual and religious men and women, cheating and running around at the same or greater number then all others. The choice and morality question should have nothing to do with God but a persons beliefs and their idea of what is right or wrong. The OP should seriously just join Ashley Madison and see if that provides/answers his needs. Do I agree, not so sure, but in this case I would counsel that it is the most viable option.....
Author asireen Posted July 1, 2009 Author Posted July 1, 2009 One of you raised a pertinent question – why did I post here? To vent? No. The reason is to get the opinions of complete strangers, in anonymity, who would say it the way it is, blunt and direct. That objective has been met and it has got me thinking. The friends I mentioned who encouraged me to go to Thailand gave a one sided view. I don’t know if I will follow through with my plans, but there is a lot of food for thought here, and thank you all for that.
HsMomma Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 One of you raised a pertinent question – why did I post here? To vent? No. The reason is to get the opinions of complete strangers, in anonymity, who would say it the way it is, blunt and direct. That objective has been met and it has got me thinking. The friends I mentioned who encouraged me to go to Thailand gave a one sided view. I don’t know if I will follow through with my plans, but there is a lot of food for thought here, and thank you all for that. That's good, asireen - that's the REAL purpose of this forum (as opposed to giving people a reason to argue!). The best advice I've read personally since coming here is this: take what you need from the opinions expressed here, use the advice accordingly and leave the rest right where it is - on these boards.
Gamine Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 You may be right, but I admit when I see the word God, I skim through the rest. Please don't use that reference, when we see the Mark Sandford's and many many other spiritual and religious men and women, cheating and running around at the same or greater number then all others. The choice and morality question should have nothing to do with God but a persons beliefs and their idea of what is right or wrong. The OP should seriously just join Ashley Madison and see if that provides/answers his needs. Do I agree, not so sure, but in this case I would counsel that it is the most viable option..... Your request that I no longer reference God is respectfully denied. There may be others who are not authentically God's children and who have taken the Lord's name in vain through their actions, however I am not one of those and will continue to live true to what is ostensibly a truth that cannot be denied. If you wish to look to examples I respectfully suggest you turn to the life of Jesus Christ and the Madonna not to the flawed human beings that walk the face of this earth. Individual morality is a fallacy and the ultimate invitation to the slippery slope. There is a standard of conduct we will each be held to and it is better to accept this truth while one has a chance to rectify their life rather than waiting until it is too late.
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