Lyssa Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 Honey, I think many of us fOW; once we come out of the fog of thinking this relationship would be IT for us, the ONE; kick ourselves and feel "what was I thinking; I am smarter than that; what is wrong with me". Damn. I wonder why I thought you were a man .
Author Aquarius Rising Posted July 1, 2009 Author Posted July 1, 2009 AR <<hug>> Anger is good. It helps keep you on the right path of NC. And the self loathing <<<<HUG>>>>> Honey, I think many of us fOW; once we come out of the fog of thinking this relationship would be IT for us, the ONE; kick ourselves and feel "what was I thinking; I am smarter than that; what is wrong with me". That is when we need to reflect on US; on our values, our wishes, our dreams. We need to accept that we make mistakes, but we also need to realize that we don't want that sort of life/relationship. We need to learn from those mistakes and carry that knowledge forward in whatever we decide to do. To not do so makes us stupid, IMHO. You WILL get through this --- I promise! Just take some time to reflect on you, on what lead you to get involved with him in the first place. What was going on with you that put you in a position to be vulnerable, etc. Use that anger to be productive, not destructive, ya know? Well if I can indulge just a little... then I might do that here.... it's likely to be therapeutic.... My values .... Family (warts & all), Friendship, Honesty (which is why I de-valued myself SOOO much as a fOW) Justice, Equality, & Compassion in all it's forms. My wishes ... to be a positive role-model to my children, to learn from the past, live in the present and build a future that can withstand the toughest elements of life. My Dreams ... to find a partner to journey with me, one who will appreciate my values, honour my wishes and allow me to dream. AND What was going on with me that put me in a position to be vulnerable? I just got off the phone to a colleague and she gave me a profound statement to consider.... People who are the hungriest .... will eat garbage! I think that sums it up ....... those of us HUNGRIEST for love (i.e. there has been a pattern of deficiency e.g. childhood or adult relatinoships?)...... will pick up anything that resembles love and attempt to digest it. I know NOW that at the time I met MM I was living the life of a married woman with children but my heart was longing ...... as it has been since I was a child. That's a hard thing to reflect on ...... but it is honest. AR
Mino Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 I actually think that his response today was cruel. By saying, you are right and I support you just proves how little he was prepared to fight for me. I think that hurts even more deeply .... **** isn't he clever!!!! Hi AR, that is a tactic, He is agreeing to piss you off. He hopes to get some kind of response out of you by this. Now its time to do NC, I wish you luck,
Mino Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 JJ, the reason I can't allow myself to believe that he is just being this really genuine sweet wonderful person, is because we have been here many many times now. 'Yes you deserve more, no I can't give you what you want ... blah, blah, blah' ..... but he HAS continued to ENJOY the fringe benefits (ego stroking) of having me as his little secret on the side, he has enjoyed the soft kisses, the beautiful songs I write, record and performed for him, the endless forgiveness for the endless disappointments of cancelling plans etc. ....... AND all of this happens along side of the fact that he knows FULL well that I am in love with him. I have been blind for too long to his real motives ....... they have always been SELF-SERVING ....... it has ALWAYS been about HIM! He has nothing to give? But he had NO problem of taking=====.narristic azz
Author Aquarius Rising Posted July 1, 2009 Author Posted July 1, 2009 Hi AR, that is a tactic, He is agreeing to piss you off. He hopes to get some kind of response out of you by this. Now its time to do NC, I wish you luck, Thanks Mino for zooming in on that, co's I am struggling with that right now. YES, I CAN SEE THAT now ...... It may be passive/aggessive but he wants to ruffle my feathers ..... no doubt ......AND...... he wants to protect his sorry, sad A_S too!!! All about him. I have wondered for so long why when he says those nice things like, 'I want you to be happy', and 'you deserve happiness more than anyone else I know' blah blah blah .... that I end up with this awful, ugly knot in my stomach? when I should be feeling 'oh isn't that sweet, he really wants what's best for me' ........ BULLSH_T!!!! He wants what's best for him ..... that's his insurance plan...... to tell me those things ..... while stringing me along........ UGGHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mino Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 Thanks Mino for zooming in on that, co's I am struggling with that right now. YES, I CAN SEE THAT now ...... It may be passive/aggessive but he wants to ruffle my feathers ..... no doubt ......AND...... he wants to protect his sorry, sad A_S too!!! All about him. I have wondered for so long why when he says those nice things like, 'I want you to be happy', and 'you deserve happiness more than anyone else I know' blah blah blah .... that I end up with this awful, ugly knot in my stomach? when I should be feeling 'oh isn't that sweet, he really wants what's best for me' ........ BULLSH_T!!!! He wants what's best for him ..... that's his insurance plan...... to tell me those things ..... while stringing me along........ UGGHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Yup, I know that trick, Now he will sit back and wait till you crack! Stay strong... it will get easier,
MistyK Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 If you ever have any doubt, see these plays from my MM's playbook: Email from November - 4 months before he moved out with the assistance of the W throwoing his clothes at him: I know I have told you this repeatedly and have written this to you on several occasions also, but at this time it bears repeating. I walk with 100% certainty that you and I will be together as a normal couple. Further, I also believe that we will have that togetherness much much sooner than you even allow yourself to believe. You have won my heart. You are worthy of having all of me, and you will. It is I who do not feel worthy to have such a wonderful woman in my life. I pray your love for me never diminishes. I pray you just believe these words. I believe that our love for each other will conquer my fears and anxieties and I pray constantly for your continued love, support and patience. Lord knows I will need all of that when this process truly begins. I love you with all my heart. OR this wonderful chat from September - 6 months before he moved out (for the record, he did not move out until MARCH and he never "let me go" despite promising to): me: I have a hard time having faith in that any more than I believed you would move out this weekend when you said you would. this just sucks MM: I originally said it would be January I think I am still on that same timeline, if not sooner me: no, you said October, then you said January, then you said you were ready to move out every other day, then you said the weekend, then we went a business deal is finalized, and I guess now we are back to January. So I've been on a real roller coaster. as have you MM: I know It sucks I am ready to go, then I am afraid and back and forth me: How can you ask me to wait unitl January? My heart is breaking now and it's been almost 2 years MM: I will not ask that of you You need to be away from me now I see that me: I need you so much. MM: I beg your forgiveness for my slow movement Go ahead and do what you need to do I cannot ask anything more of you other than to forgive me If we are meant to be together, we will be together even if you are dating someone else me: Just please tell me why...why did you have to hurt me so badly? MM: I do not know It just evolved this way I never thought of leaving the wife and kids until recently and it is scary I should have let you go and then work on my issues without hurting you I was just so afraid of losing you I was selfish me: I was so patient for so long, even when you had no intention of leaving and I tried so hard to be understanding MM: I love having you in my life I have to go to work now me: and even now, you are dragging your feet again and it breaks my heart MM: I have a full day of meetings Please forgive me!! I love you and I suck at showing it I know that You deserve better **Notice the last part - he apologizes for being selfish in not letting me go and yet here we are almost a year later and he kept doing the same damn thing. So much for being sorry. It was all a game to keep me around, and it appears that your MM is doing the same thing.
jj33 Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 This is going to be a very unpopular opinion but I dont see that as manipulation. We are not children and we are not caged animals. They (MPs) find themselves in a tricky situation. Do they blow up their lives as they know it or do they stay where they are, even if they arent really happy there or are in love with someone other than their spouse. I am not excusing the fact that you have been given a date, told he will leave etc. but the fact is its not an easy decision for them. Waffling is not surprisingl. And if its upsetting, you WALK AWAY. Noone is holding you there but yourself. Yes if you stay they will allow it, but its because they are doing what works best for them, they expect that if you do stay its because its best for you. I have to say the reason xMM and I never ended up getting back together was we would talk about it, and then the next day he would say you arent going to be happy. It will do you more harm than good. And it used to really anger me and I would say let me be the judge of what is best for me and he wouldnt go for it. Thats no better. Some people obviously think it is somehow more noble, but ?? It didnt feel that way to me. So what can they do? Except not have affairs. But again we are adults. We have to take responsbility. The fact is when 2 people have feelings for one another and one is married, its a messy messy situation. Each person copes the best they know how. We have to be resonsible for ourselves. Otherwise its a victim mentality. And we are not victims in these stories. We are willing participants. I am not minimising your pain or saying he is an angel. I am just saying that analysing it all and ending up with th conclusion that he is an azz no matter WHAT he says, brings me back to my original point until he says I love you with all my heart and here look filed divorce papers, nothing will be acceptable. At least that is my view. I realized I would never be happy with any other response. Villify him if you need to, be angry if that helps you get over it. But at some point the anger also has to come back to you with respect to why you let yourself stay in a situation that hurt you (which was the subject of Minos interesting question which was hijacked by infighting).
MistyK Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 This is going to be a very unpopular opinion but I dont see that as manipulation. I have to say the reason xMM and I never ended up getting back together was we would talk about it, and then the next day he would say you arent going to be happy. It will do you more harm than good. And it used to really anger me and I would say let me be the judge of what is best for me and he wouldnt go for it. Thats no better. Some people obviously think it is somehow more noble, but ?? It didnt feel that way to me. So what can they do? Except not have affairs. But again we are adults. We have to take responsbility. I get what you're saying. My MM would sometimes act like a martyr like that and I remember telling him I was a big girl and could protect myself - who was he to decide, blah blah (sadly, I was probably just indignant, because I obviously couldn't). So anyway, we'd get back together. But then he'd resume business as usual and hurt me all over again. So, pretending to be noble in his case was part of what sucked me in. I do think it was manipulative because he didn't really mean it. I hate feeling patronized, but I really think in my case it would have been more humane for him to just let me go and I'd have much more respect for him than I do now. Who really know's what the MM in AR's life is really thinking? There is the possibility he's finally realzing he's treated her badly and will respect her wishes (which would be good and hopefully AR sees his limitations, and is not swayed by his 'letting her go find happiness'), or he's simply trying to make himself look like a better person than he is. He probably does feel bad, but obviously not bad ENOUGH to do the right thing either way up til this point.
NoIDidn't Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 Who really know's what the MM in AR's life is really thinking? There is the possibility he's finally realzing he's treated her badly and will respect her wishes (which would be good and hopefully AR sees his limitations, and is not swayed by his 'letting her go find happiness'), or he's simply trying to make himself look like a better person than he is. He probably does feel bad, but obviously not bad ENOUGH to do the right thing either way up til this point. Nah, none of that. I think he realizes that she is going to want more after his contract his up and he is to return to his family, and he doesn't want to deal with that. He has no intention of leaving his W and kids, but he doesn't want to tell her that because she might not make herself available if he does. He wants an A and he wants her to know that that's exactly what it will be. It will be an A, not auditioning for the part of his W. It seems cruel to her because she wants him to fight for her. But that's just my 2.
jj33 Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 NID i think that is right but hes not leading her down the garden path. He is saying fine. This is all I can give take it or leave it. Again its less than what AR wants to hear but its honest. Its more honest for him not to fight for her. There is no negotiating on his part - its either his way or it isnt any way at all. Its not what AR wants to hear but its the truth and hopefully will allow her to move on.
jj33 Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 Maybe I am projecting my own experience but I spent a long time reading all sorts of meaning into whatever he said or wrote or tone or this or that. And in the end none of it matters. Either you end up together or you dont. Its true when men are ready to move forward in a real way, they let you know, there is nothing to decipher. The rest of it is just smoke signals. You may as well be reading tea leaves, so whether he is being nice, being manipulative, being whatever, it just doesnt matter. AR all that matters is that you are clear about your next move.
MistyK Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 The rest of it is just smoke signals. You may as well be reading tea leaves, so whether he is being nice, being manipulative, being whatever, it just doesnt matter. AR all that matters is that you are clear about your next move. Very good point jj33. His motives don't matter. Bottom line is what you want from your life and your knowledge that he can't give it to you.
fooled once Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Hey AR ....... How are you doing today? How are you feeling?
Author Aquarius Rising Posted July 2, 2009 Author Posted July 2, 2009 Hey AR ....... How are you doing today? How are you feeling? Crying as I am typing this ..... I just really needed someone to ask me that. I feel like I want to curl up in the tiniest little ball that I can make with my body and make all the pain somehow go away ...... As well as dealing with all the pain & anger re MM, I have been arguing with my H all morning on the phone ...... which has become a DAILY occurence .... as he takes pleasure in reminding me about how I have F_CKED our life, our family and our future ..... as he struggles to manage his own anger and pain at my decision to separate from him 2mths ago. There are moments when I literally think it would be easier to END it all ..... but then I think of my two beautiful children and that thought evaporates ....... They are now EVERYTHING to me. So sad today ...... really sad ........ Thanks for asking FO (hug) AR
GreenEyedLady Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Crying as I am typing this ..... I just really needed someone to ask me that. I feel like I want to curl up in the tiniest little ball that I can make with my body and make all the pain somehow go away ...... As well as dealing with all the pain & anger re MM, I have been arguing with my H all morning on the phone ...... which has become a DAILY occurence .... as he takes pleasure in reminding me about how I have F_CKED our life, our family and our future ..... as he struggles to manage his own anger and pain at my decision to separate from him 2mths ago. You are separated now. You do not need to fight on the phone with your STBXH. No matter what has happened and what choices you have made up til separation, you do not have to listen to him anymore. When you chose to separate, that all ended. If he wants to fight, hang up the phone. You are not in the state to handle all this. You need to find a professional to talk to. You need help coping now. You need to get rid of all the poison affecting your life. You need to be well and it is apparent you are not. There are beautiful little lives that love you and need you. You need to be whole for them and you. This will pass. Please get help. GEL
Mino Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Hi Sweetie, I know its tough, It will be hard for several weeks, But also know, it will get better after you get through this rough time. I can vouch for that. ((((HUGS)))
White Flower Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 GEL and Mino are right. Take care of you and don't get sucked in by fighting with your STBXH. You remind me of me (is that ok---am I 'projecting' lol) in that I D'd and ended it with MM. Private joke in the parenthesis. Hope I don't get flamed. ((((AR))))
Author Aquarius Rising Posted July 2, 2009 Author Posted July 2, 2009 GEL and Mino are right. Take care of you and don't get sucked in by fighting with your STBXH. You remind me of me (is that ok---am I 'projecting' lol) in that I D'd and ended it with MM. Private joke in the parenthesis. Hope I don't get flamed. ((((AR)))) Thanks WF, and to others here responding today. Yeh, it feels like a double-load, going NC with MM and separating from H after 18 years.... probably more than most people can withstand .... How are you doing now? and how long has your recovery taken? Might give me some hope (hug) AR
White Flower Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Thanks WF, and to others here responding today. Yeh, it feels like a double-load, going NC with MM and separating from H after 18 years.... probably more than most people can withstand .... How are you doing now? and how long has your recovery taken? Might give me some hope (hug) AR I think I said it earlier, as long as I focus on the anger and what I deserved yet didn't get it made it easier. Just try not to focus on the sadness alone. At least that works for me. I'm not sure what others do. Also, we surprise ourselves at how strong we are when we never knew we could be. Be proud of that when you notice it. You can do anything you put your mind to.
Author Aquarius Rising Posted July 2, 2009 Author Posted July 2, 2009 I think I said it earlier, as long as I focus on the anger and what I deserved yet didn't get it made it easier. Just try not to focus on the sadness alone. At least that works for me. I'm not sure what others do. That's going to be helpful WF .... yes, focus on the anger of what I was fighting for and what I deserve ..... as opposed to the victim mentality of 'Look what he's done to me' ..... That's good, gonna use that, thanks. You're right, staying angry makes it easier..... AR:mad::mad::mad: (lol)
fooled once Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Oh tell your STBx to f off. He doesn't get to control you anymore. He has no say so in your life. YOU didn't ruin the marriage or him. He is playing the victim. I went through that with my ex when I ended our marriage. It was all this drama. On day 5 years into my current marriage (and he was engaged) he called me all whiny about how *I* was such a mean person for ending our marriage and basically telling me he wanted to get back together. I was like *jawdrop* are you kidding me?? I divorced you for a reason and I am HAPPILY married -- I do not want you back. Ugh. I told him it had been 7 years; get over it already and quit thinking we will ever be back together. AR ((hug)) hang in there. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger. You will get through all this. Look into the eyes of your kiddos when you are feeling down/stressed and remember how much you love them and how much they are depending on you. (hug)
Author Aquarius Rising Posted July 2, 2009 Author Posted July 2, 2009 Oh tell your STBx to f off. He doesn't get to control you anymore. He has no say so in your life. YOU didn't ruin the marriage or him. He is playing the victim. I went through that with my ex when I ended our marriage. It was all this drama. On day 5 years into my current marriage (and he was engaged) he called me all whiny about how *I* was such a mean person for ending our marriage and basically telling me he wanted to get back together. I was like *jawdrop* are you kidding me?? I divorced you for a reason and I am HAPPILY married -- I do not want you back. Ugh. I told him it had been 7 years; get over it already and quit thinking we will ever be back together. AR ((hug)) hang in there. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger. You will get through all this. Look into the eyes of your kiddos when you are feeling down/stressed and remember how much you love them and how much they are depending on you. (hug) Thanks FO.... I guess when we are beating ourselves up about the realisation that hopes with MM are finished ... it's easier to believe that we probably deserve the abuse from STBxH too! And maybe I don't feel strong enough to fight back just yet. FO, I want to ask set me straight on a desire that I have to email MM (I know that you will) I hate the thought of him thinking ... Oh that crazy psycho OW, one minute we were going to have lunch and spend time together and the next she does a back-flip and tells me to LEAVE HER ALONE! It drives me crazy thinking that that may be what he's thinking... I feel as though I want to write to him and tell him that the reason I became so angry is because:- You say you want me to move on and be happy ... but for 19mths you have not allowed me to move on because you have kept stringing me along with ideas of future possibilites ... which = false hope (cruel) AND Your response to me could have been sincere e.g. I want to fight for you, you are worth it, and I WANT to give you the relationship you deserve and the time, respect and attention you need ... BUT I am returning to my home country and I don't know what the future will hold exactly etc. etc.... I mean there are so many other things he could have chosen to say instead of 'I want to support your decision to move on and can we be friends!!!!!!' It just seems like such a kick in the teeth ....... at the end of 19 months .... for him to just let me go 'so god damn easy'!!!!!! ANGRY TODAY!!!! :mad::mad: SET ME STRAIGHT HERE FO ........ like only YOU can (lol)
jj33 Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Im not Fooled Once but AR you cant do that. You are asking him to say what you want to hear. You are still fighting the idea that he hasnt said what you need him to say. Any further communication is begging him to pay attention to you. He knows why you had to end it. YOu no longer need to explain yourself to him. When you tell someone you are done. You are done. If you email him now he will see that you are not serious. He will have the upper hand to reel you back in by fighting cajoling and everything else and before you know it you will be back at square one and hating yourself for falling back into it, saying its all his fault. You have made a very good decision. Stick to it. Dont go backwards by contacting him.
Mino Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Thanks FO.... I guess when we are beating ourselves up about the realisation that hopes with MM are finished ... it's easier to believe that we probably deserve the abuse from STBxH too! And maybe I don't feel strong enough to fight back just yet. FO, I want to ask set me straight on a desire that I have to email MM (I know that you will) I hate the thought of him thinking ... Oh that crazy psycho OW, one minute we were going to have lunch and spend time together and the next she does a back-flip and tells me to LEAVE HER ALONE! It drives me crazy thinking that that may be what he's thinking... I feel as though I want to write to him and tell him that the reason I became so angry is because:- You say you want me to move on and be happy ... but for 19mths you have not allowed me to move on because you have kept stringing me along with ideas of future possibilites ... which = false hope (cruel) AND Your response to me could have been sincere e.g. I want to fight for you, you are worth it, and I WANT to give you the relationship you deserve and the time, respect and attention you need ... BUT I am returning to my home country and I don't know what the future will hold exactly etc. etc.... I mean there are so many other things he could have chosen to say instead of 'I want to support your decision to move on and can we be friends!!!!!!' It just seems like such a kick in the teeth ....... at the end of 19 months .... for him to just let me go 'so god damn easy'!!!!!! ANGRY TODAY!!!! :mad::mad: SET ME STRAIGHT HERE FO ........ like only YOU can (lol) Hi AR, Chalk it up to him being weak and a coward. Of coarse he took the easy road, that is part of their makeup. Had mm been strong, and a man of character he would have not had a A in the first place, right? Think about it, people have problems in their m all the time, if he was so unhappy, why DIDNT he fix it with the W? I can tell you, he took the easy way out, and had an A.... Because the other way required work, effort, and courage and strength. Does it really surprise you that he took the easy way? think about it.
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