LisaUk Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 We do act solely for our wants, thats why you can't answer. Some wants trump other wants and our values and such make us decide what we want more. Heres a crude example. I haven't shared my bed for 3 months, and I want to, but I also want to honor my marriage vows and respect my wife. My want for my retained integrity trumps my want for cheap sex. A narcicist would opt for the immediate gratification while I opt for my values but it is still a want. How I want to define myself. TOJAZ Yes, but social exchange theroy says if our costs outweigh our profits we bail, rubbish, we can be really unhappy in a relationship but because of our WANT to uphold our morals we stay and try and work it out. It's a very reductionist therory, it's like saying if you bring me flowers everyday and take me to movies, that outweighs you going to the football game, so I'll love you. You see? I suppose one could argue that going against our morality will cost us more, but that's not really what the theroy is about. I can't put it any other way, is really late here, 12.30am, too tired! No that's not an excuse.
Author tojaz Posted July 8, 2009 Author Posted July 8, 2009 Yes, but social exchange theroy says if our costs outweigh our profits we bail, rubbish, we can be really unhappy in a relationship but because of our WANT to uphold our morals we stay and try and work it out. It's a very reductionist therory, it's like saying if you bring me flowers everyday and take me to movies, that outweighs you going to the football game, so I'll love you. You see? I suppose one could argue that going against our morality will cost us more, but that's not really what the theroy is about. I can't put it any other way, is really late here, 12.30am, too tired! No that's not an excuse. Theory is great, but is that how you think? Using your example, I would bring you flowers and take you to movies, not to make you love me but from my want to demonstrate my love for you. Choosing you over a football game would also convey my want of displaying your status as higher then a football game. Not to influence your actions but to display my own. It would be my want for my feelings to be clearly understood. The want also dosen't always connect with the action. Same example, I forgot your flowers and your upset, thus I choose a football game over taking you to the movies, not because i want to see the game but from my want to seperate my self from you while your upset. This is how my head works anyways, but I'm not a smart man. Ignorance is bliss. TOJAZ
LisaUk Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Theory is great, but is that how you think? Using your example, I would bring you flowers and take you to movies, not to make you love me but from my want to demonstrate my love for you. Choosing you over a football game would also convey my want of displaying your status as higher then a football game. Not to influence your actions but to display my own. It would be my want for my feelings to be clearly understood. The want also dosen't always connect with the action. Same example, I forgot your flowers and your upset, thus I choose a football game over taking you to the movies, not because i want to see the game but from my want to seperate my self from you while your upset. This is how my head works anyways, but I'm not a smart man. Ignorance is bliss. TOJAZ You are smart! You just said it yourself though, there are other influences why you would go to the game, and that's my point, your relationship cannot be measured in terms of "as long as you keep my love bank topped up, I'll love you", it's just not that simple.
Author tojaz Posted July 9, 2009 Author Posted July 9, 2009 You are smart! You just said it yourself though, there are other influences why you would go to the game, and that's my point, your relationship cannot be measured in terms of "as long as you keep my love bank topped up, I'll love you", it's just not that simple. I think the theory of the love bank is a little vague. It does not create love but maintain it. If I showed up at your door with flowers and tickets for a show, jewlery, chocolate etc. You would not love me because you don't already, but if someone you loved did the same thing, your love would grow out of appreciation of the gesture. In the context of the theory it is true, and the only purpose of the love bank. The actions that fill it are up to the one being loved, not the lover. example... I bring you flowers to show love or you, this is a withdrawl, you do not like flowers and prefer chocolate, thus the flowers are never deposited. Your balance remains the same and mine drops. If you continue to allow me to bring you flowers, this cycle will continue until we are broke.
LisaUk Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 I think the theory of the love bank is a little vague. It does not create love but maintain it. If I showed up at your door with flowers and tickets for a show, jewlery, chocolate etc. You would not love me because you don't already, but if someone you loved did the same thing, your love would grow out of appreciation of the gesture. In the context of the theory it is true, and the only purpose of the love bank. The actions that fill it are up to the one being loved, not the lover. example... I bring you flowers to show love or you, this is a withdrawl, you do not like flowers and prefer chocolate, thus the flowers are never deposited. Your balance remains the same and mine drops. If you continue to allow me to bring you flowers, this cycle will continue until we are broke. But like you just said it doesn't make or break a marriage, because love isn't about cost/profit and comparision charts, it's more complex, that's why I don't buy into the theroy, it's too reductionist.
Author tojaz Posted July 9, 2009 Author Posted July 9, 2009 But like you just said it doesn't make or break a marriage, because love isn't about cost/profit and comparision charts, it's more complex, that's why I don't buy into the theroy, it's too reductionist. Yes, but the conversation started about whats driving human behavior, not love. The want to give and receive loving actions is what drives the Love bank. Love itself is very different. The Love bank is a tool, not the reason. On this board I wake up and check for your posts first and reply, this is a gesture to let you know I'm here and listening, contributing to the conversation. You usually reciprocate that and our conversations continue. If I stopped doing that, you would probably wonder why and continue to post for awhile, but eventualy after not receiving a response, you would stop and forget about me. The reasons why i talk to you are irelevant to that action. We talk because we enjoy it, but we act in a way that encourages the talks to continue. Threads that are nurtured rise to the top and ones that are neglected fall and disappear. The content of the thread dosen't matter.
LisaUk Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Yes, but the conversation started about whats driving human behavior, not love. The want to give and receive loving actions is what drives the Love bank. Love itself is very different. The Love bank is a tool, not the reason. On this board I wake up and check for your posts first and reply, this is a gesture to let you know I'm here and listening, contributing to the conversation. You usually reciprocate that and our conversations continue. If I stopped doing that, you would probably wonder why and continue to post for awhile, but eventualy after not receiving a response, you would stop and forget about me. The reasons why i talk to you are irelevant to that action. We talk because we enjoy it, but we act in a way that encourages the talks to continue. Threads that are nurtured rise to the top and ones that are neglected fall and disappear. The content of the thread dosen't matter. The conversation with Owl started because PWXS3 suggested that everyones relationship break down appeared to have had at its root a similar cause, if this was so why cannot all of them be fixed the same way? I suggested it wasn't the case that they were all similar, Owl then said that it was that simple it's a matter of cost/profit, I then argued it wasn't and now you are too! We are arguing the same essentially, I think, but to be honest, I'm going ga ga crazy at the moment anyway and am probaly just talking a lot of BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :confused::confused::confused::confused:
LisaUk Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 On this board I wake up and check for your posts first and reply, Thank you! this is a gesture to let you know I'm here and listening, contributing to the conversation. You usually reciprocate that and our conversations continue. If I stopped doing that, you would probably wonder why and continue to post for awhile, but eventualy after not receiving a response, you would stop and forget about me. I don't think I will forget you, you were there to listen when I was in great need, like others on here also, and I will always remember others stories and kindness and wonder how they are doing, I'm sure, even in years to come.
Owl Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 You are smart! You just said it yourself though, there are other influences why you would go to the game, and that's my point, your relationship cannot be measured in terms of "as long as you keep my love bank topped up, I'll love you", it's just not that simple. LOL...I'll play. I disagree. Those "other influences" are just factors in the cost-benefit analysis we conduct mentally prior to taking any action. I may buy you flowers because I'm hoping to get you to respond favorably to me. Yes, it makes you happy...but MY benefit is an improved response from you. Every action anyone takes goes through this cost benefit analysis. We decide if what we're going to get back out of this action is worth the effort...now, we are PLANNING creatures, so that benefit may be something we anticipate will be delayed...but its still in that analsysis, and still the primary part of our decision making process. ALL actions can be brought down to the move towards/move away from simplicity. I would argue that we ARE all 'narcissistic' to some degree. But most of us include how others will treat us as a result of our actions as part of that cost-benefit analysis. We know that if we consistently insist only on our own way...eventually that comes at a cost. We don't insist on our own way all the time, because we know that this will negatively impact our future interactions with those people (so we avoid that result by being diplomatic and social). A true narcissist doesn't include those future impacts as part of their cost benefit analysis. Or, they've learned how to manage the people around them to mitigate the negative impacts to themselves (bullying behavior and convincing others not to challenge them). Like I said...interesting discussion.
Author tojaz Posted July 9, 2009 Author Posted July 9, 2009 I'm not sure of the rules, but I think Owl just won!
LisaUk Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 I'm not sure of the rules, but I think Owl just won! Don't know, all I know is I don't have the energy or sanity left to argue anymore, I'm done.
Author tojaz Posted July 9, 2009 Author Posted July 9, 2009 On this board I wake up and check for your posts first and reply, Thank you! Your very Welcome!this is a gesture to let you know I'm here and listening, contributing to the conversation. You usually reciprocate that and our conversations continue. If I stopped doing that, you would probably wonder why and continue to post for awhile, but eventualy after not receiving a response, you would stop and forget about me. I don't think I will forget you, you were there to listen when I was in great need, like others on here also, and I will always remember others stories and kindness and wonder how they are doing, I'm sure, even in years to come. Thats a very nice thing to say, one of the nicest i've heard in a long time. Thank you. I think I will always remember you too. TOJAZ
Author tojaz Posted July 9, 2009 Author Posted July 9, 2009 Don't know, all I know is I don't have the energy or sanity left to argue anymore, I'm done. Fair enough
Author tojaz Posted July 10, 2009 Author Posted July 10, 2009 I think I'm backsliding today!! Just can't get her out of my head after being so good for about a week, then all the questions keep flowing back. I guess it's just that my birthdays coming and I'm going to spend it without her for the first time in 13 years:o. I havent seen or spoken to her in a week and it didn't bother me until today. I don't know why, i just hope it passes quickly. I hate this feeling. TOJAZ
PWSX3 Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Those are common feelings & you are not alone. It is interesting how you can be doing so well & all of a sudden out of no where you get hit, something reminds you of your spouse & you say; WTF was that?????? I've been separated almost a year, divorced since April and just the other day I heard a song on the radio that brought tears to my eyes. WHY???? I have noticed that feeling doesn't last long & as time goes they get easier, but it is still hard no matter what. Someone told me that your tears are God's way of cleansing you from the inside out. You do feel better after you have shed a few tears.... Just except those feelings, don't try & push them away. I feel that is part of the grieving process which is something everyone needs to do. I also agree with OWL.....In my past that is how I thought, I would do things because of the reward I would receive back. I wonder if that goes hand & hand with a controlling type person?????? Even now I catch myself wanting to do something because of what I will get in return but I stop & think about it now....Good post OWL
LisaUk Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 Hi Tojaz, you and me both then today?! PWXS3 is right, it's a rollarcoaster, I WANT TO GET OFF. He's right though, these moments will get less, at least that's what everyone tells me!
Owl Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 The ups and downs of the rollercoaster slowly even out over time...and get fewer and farther apart as the ride goes on. They did for me at least. Hope all is well for both of you.
lupa Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I know this rollercoaster...it isn't even that great of a ride! I want my money back.
PWSX3 Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I also feel if you really deal with what is going on and you don't try to push it to the back of your head of just stuff it away that the rollercoaster ride gets more of a off-road adventure. We will never completely get off but it does get better. If you have ever gone 4-wheeling you get shaking up, you get tossed around, you might even get stuck & need some help getting going again, but for the most part you stay on the road that you are trying to follow.....
LisaUk Posted July 10, 2009 Posted July 10, 2009 I also feel if you really deal with what is going on and you don't try to push it to the back of your head of just stuff it away that the rollercoaster ride gets more of a off-road adventure. We will never completely get off but it does get better. If you have ever gone 4-wheeling you get shaking up, you get tossed around, you might even get stuck & need some help getting going again, but for the most part you stay on the road that you are trying to follow..... You mean just feel it, if you are upset cry, if your angry, shout,scream,hit something (soft)?
Author tojaz Posted July 10, 2009 Author Posted July 10, 2009 You mean just feel it, if you are upset cry, if your angry, shout,scream,hit something (soft)? Yeah, thats what I've been doing. Just let it happen. They do seem to be spreading out more, but they also seem to get more intense. A feeling of dread through my whole body today. I know it will pass. TOJAZ
LisaUk Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 Yeah, thats what I've been doing. Just let it happen. They do seem to be spreading out more, but they also seem to get more intense. A feeling of dread through my whole body today. I know it will pass. TOJAZ It's difficult to do that living with my parents, my mum has told me to belt up, get over it, she doesn't want to hear or see me going on about it.
Author tojaz Posted July 11, 2009 Author Posted July 11, 2009 It's difficult to do that living with my parents, my mum has told me to belt up, get over it, she doesn't want to hear or see me going on about it. I have people that tell me the same thing. They are trying to be supportive, by trying to convince you to put it behind you. Unfortunately, it's not that easy. There are stages that have to be gone through and we are just going through them. Best thing to do is to just let it out and explain to your mum that it is healthy. TOJAZ
LisaUk Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 I have people that tell me the same thing. They are trying to be supportive, by trying to convince you to put it behind you. Unfortunately, it's not that easy. There are stages that have to be gone through and we are just going through them. Best thing to do is to just let it out and explain to your mum that it is healthy. TOJAZ The situation with my mum is difficult, i don't like to do her down, she had a terrible childhood, but she is very controlling and verbally abusive, to everyone, not just me. She actually told me to stop tailking about my ex and the split or she would throw me out of the house, she does not need mt c**p! Then other times she is supportive and tells me to have a good cry. It is and always has been a difficult living situation with my mother, I am grateful to my parents for taking me in when I had no where else to go but also at the same time, i did not want to return to live with them for this reason. When I live away from home, although my mum is still voliatile, our relationship is managable, but under the same roof it is difficult to say the least. (If you recall my post about my ex saying sleep on your friends floor, that was his solution to my predicament, he knows first hand how it is). The controlling can be to the extreme, including what I can and cannot spend my own money on, when I can go out etc. I am 33 years old and i am being treated like a teenager. It really is a difficult situation and I cannot talk to her about any of it, nor can my dad. believe me we have bothed tried in the past and paid dearly for it.
Author tojaz Posted July 11, 2009 Author Posted July 11, 2009 The situation with my mum is difficult, i don't like to do her down, she had a terrible childhood, but she is very controlling and verbally abusive, to everyone, not just me. She actually told me to stop tailking about my ex and the split or she would throw me out of the house, she does not need mt c**p! Then other times she is supportive and tells me to have a good cry. It is and always has been a difficult living situation with my mother, I am grateful to my parents for taking me in when I had no where else to go but also at the same time, i did not want to return to live with them for this reason. When I live away from home, although my mum is still voliatile, our relationship is managable, but under the same roof it is difficult to say the least. (If you recall my post about my ex saying sleep on your friends floor, that was his solution to my predicament, he knows first hand how it is). The controlling can be to the extreme, including what I can and cannot spend my own money on, when I can go out etc. I am 33 years old and i am being treated like a teenager. It really is a difficult situation and I cannot talk to her about any of it, nor can my dad. believe me we have bothed tried in the past and paid dearly for it. Some folks are just wired that way. It's a defense measure. You can't hurt them if they shut you out and run the show. She still loves youand is doing her best. My mom, when i told her what happened, her only reply was "that sucks" and then went on to dump her own problems on me. Very supportive . Sounds like your Dad understands what is going on there as well. Just imagine how he feels! From what you have written about him, it sounds like he has been very supportive and understanding of your situation, I'm sure he will do his best to buffer you from your mums tough love if things come to a head. TOJAZ
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