Too nice to men?

[shadowplay]

The more topics that women can discuss, the greater ability to interact with more people. If you narrow your interests down to three and turn your nose up at the rest, it will come through clearly.

 

It's also disingenuous to say that you dislike gossip, when posting threads about celebrity gossip, blogs and jumping in with both feet when it comes to dissing the looks of every female celebrity.

 

I wish people would own their own sense of elitism, while hiding behind the mask of a "deep thinker".

 

I just used those as examples off the top of my head -- of course I have more than three interests.

 

Because I like psychology, I've occasionally enjoyed speculating on the personalities of a few celebrities for fun. But when it comes to traditional gossip between friends, which tends to be damaging since they actually know the people involved...not something I usually enjoy.

 

You're really generalizing on the looks thing. I think I said one or two actresses didn't do it for me, but I still found them to be beautiful. I remember you dissecting the looks of a model and posting pictures to prove your point that she was basically just "average." It goes both ways.

 

Debating the attractiveness of a celebrity is different from picking apart a mutual friend or acquaintance, which is cruel and damaging. I have NEVER done this in a friendship, and I've often found myself on the receiving end of this kind of dissection.

 

You really can't know what went down with my friends unless you were there like I was. Elsewhere you've proclaimed yourself a firm believer in knowing all the facts before you even speculate on something, but you know nothing about what happened to me and you're already passing judgment.

 

It had little to do with my own competitiveness and much more to do with theirs. People on the outside came to me over the years and remarked on how poorly I was treated. You've proven yourself to be a competitive person as well on this board, so does that give me authority to speculate on what may or may not have happened in your friendships over the years?

 

You find what I say disingenuous? Fine. I have the same feeling about much of what you post.

[shadowplay]

So maybe the less than nice woman ON MY OWN is referring to is simply the one who is able to enter into conflict with a bit of relish and good humour. Which I think lots of women are able to do with men, but for some reason we're far less good at doing with eachother. It's a bit of an embarrassment.

 

That's true. Most of the conflict I've gotten into on LS has been with other women, where it invariably takes a turn for the nasty and personal.

 

As social creatures, women are more vulnerable to group dynamics. As I wrote earlier, women are easy to relate to one on one but they can get nasty in packs when politics, group think and back-stabbing come into play.

 

My friendships with men have generally been more easy-going and stress-free.

[DMoon]

Many women who are book smart still spend a lot of their time talking about inane crap, while this is slightly less true for intelligent men.

 

I went to a competitive high school, so I was surrounded by smart people. Many of the intelligent girls in my classes were no less vapid outside of class than other girls. There was one girl in particular who was a star student, featured in national magazines for her achievements. But she was completely annoying and ditzy when you actually engaged her in conversation. It was as if she had no real curiosity outside of school. She didn't even seem to read for pleasure.

 

In college it was the same. Book smart girls, endless gossip. And it's not as if I only consider intellectual discussion interesting. In fact, most of the conversing I do isn't intellectual, but there are some topics that I really can't stomach for more than a few minutes at a time: gossip, reality tv, weddings, etc.

 

At least 2/3 of the time when I overhear conversations between young women they go something like this:

"I'm really getting tired of Jackie. She always has to be the center of attention. The other day we went to....OMG you know Devon? He is such a cool kid. Everybody loves him. He was at Jake's party last night before the cops...Derek's parents really want the wedding to be on the Hamptons, but my aunt has this awesome loft on the Cape...OMG, Jen, did I show you the cute dress I found online? I literally squealed out loud when I saw it, and my brother looked over at me like I was crazy...Ugh, she's not that pretty."

 

I may be spoiled because as a child I had an awesome girlfriend who was totally on my wavelength. We talked about everything and anything from the minutiae our lives, to musings about the world, to our likes and dislikes, to creative ideas and fantasies, to general silliness and goofiness. What we had in common is we were always observing, making fun and laughing at the world around us. We were incredibly close and spent most of our time together.

 

Despite this connection, she ended up being a mediocre friend to me. When I was bullied by the other girls in our group, she never stood up for me or even acknowledged what they were doing. Before high school she moved to China with her family. When she returned my senior year, she acted as if she didn't know me. She and her new friends completely ignored me. I was crushed, but so it goes. Now she keeps trying to reconnect with me on facebook, but I honestly don't have much interest in ever seeing her again. Some things you just can't forgive.

 

Now if only I could find that kind of connection with a friend who was also decent to me...

 

What you bring up is very interesting, but I guess my take is different because I came from some of the worst schools in the country with no intellectual currency, whereas you were already in a competitive atmosphere that fostered intellectual individuality and creativity and I’ve noticed a lot of gifted kids are very competitive in general which once again is not gender specific. On another note, culturally, women regardless of intellectual superiority, are trained to foster cooperation and consensus, to be the nice girl--and if that means indulging in "superficial crap" to grist the mill, then so be it. Relational consensus is something that Women are taught in order to get along with the larger group and other women. However, Men culturally are trained to be competitive and test boundaries, thus a confrontational conversation may be naturally stimulating to prove one upmanship then to women who may prefer corroboration. This is a gross generalization naturally and this hinges on a variety of factors such as gender norms your area of professional interest (in which men may dominate such as engineering), etc. Therefore, unless you are surrounded by adult aged whiz kids on a daily basis you’re stuck with having to deal with average people who aren’t going to be able to instantly become whirring dervishes of rapier wit and cultural depth. Also it does take a lot of energy to be witty and preternaturally bright. Those smart girls you spoke of may have engaged in easy talking points as a form of bonding and relating without having to compete on who is the smartest--which may engender envy and agressive mean girl competitive behavior to put them in place.

 

Moreover, I have to slightly echoes Tamarare’s sentiments that in general we engage in very superficial interactions on a daily basis, which makes it that much harder to segue unto more diverse topics, especially when you’re only outlet may be your associates at the office water cooler or epemereral connections of passing acquaintances. Small talk, I have noticed is something that American’s really like to indulge in and as long as it’s cheerful and not deep than that counts as real conversation and a way of relating at the most common denominator. In addition, pop/TV culture is an integral part of American culture thus in general; it isn’t bad in and of itself to indulge in gossip occasionally, but once again, thus is not gender specific to just women.

 

Which goes back to the point that cultivating deep friendships is a lot harder to negotiate in general, which may explain why you’re stuck with having to deal inane mind numbing fluff. Relationships can be disappointing however that still doesn’t negate that this problem is gender specific and that women are more likely to engage in minutiae as opposed to launching into cultural or artistic conversation. You can easily hear the stories about the guys who like to talk about culture and art but the guys that he’s around prefer talking about sports, right ring talk radio—which is prevalent here, and their last escapade at a strip club. How is that any different than the receptionist who is an assiduous People and Life Style reader, and has Perez Hilton bookmarked. Of course, I am surrounded by women who like talking about their kids, their husbands, and their weight, however the men I over hear talk along similar lines—their wife their kids, their girlfriends, getting laid, their cars, how much money they have, etc. Hardly deep in day to day interactions on either side of the gender aisle.

[Star Gazer]

I find that it's the opposite, that it's the very cattiness and competitiveness inherent in some female friendships that turns women away. Some women are good at playing this game and even seem to enjoy it, others are not. Women are easier to deal with when they're one on one, but they can become quite nasty in packs.

 

I for one do not think that cattiness and competitiveness is an inherent quality to any relationship, including female friendships. Rather, it's inherent in some females themselves. Women who are catty and competitive with other women, are unable to bond and trust other women, because - for one reason or another - they assume other women share those same negative qualities. But guess what, not every woman does. Only the bad apples.

 

Many of the girls who rejected me also nitpicked my appearance to death and made me aware of every flaw on my body, while I never spoke a bad word about them (behind their backs or to their faces).

 

It's particularly disingenuous to say you don't do these things, when you've openly done so here on LS.

 

It's also disingenuous to say that you dislike gossip, when posting threads about celebrity gossip, blogs and jumping in with both feet when it comes to dissing the looks of every female celebrity.

 

I wish people would own their own sense of elitism, while hiding behind the mask of a "deep thinker".

 

Ain't that the truth!

[Dexter Morgan]

We all know about the theory of women liking a "bad boy" type and nice guys finish last. Do men think they legitimately want a "nice" woman or do they prefer a little b$t$h mixed in there? Lets hear the truth about this. Dont hold back.

 

No, don't want a b!tch, never did. not to say that if a man finds a woman that lacks the little bit of "b!tch" mixed in there as you say, that said woman won't turn out to be one anyway. But I still look to weed that part out when dating.

 

Thing is, women abroad, and in this forum, have admitted they want a "bad boy"...or at least a little bit of "bad boy"....and what comes with that isn't desirable.

 

I NEVER want anything that even closely resembles a "bad girl". First, its just not who I am, and its not something I want in a woman. And secondly I don't want all the other obvious bad traits that come with it.

 

So never will I try to hook up with, or accept an advance from, a woman that likes to party and club alot. No thanks. don't want a woman with a "tramp stamp", if you know what I mean. Don't want a woman that dresses provacatively, except in the bedroom only with me. don't want a woman who seeks attention from other men constantly(which also kind of ties in with the clubbing thing).

 

So no, don't want anything in a woman that even closely resembles what alot of women admit they look for in a man.

 

and alot of women will say that they want someone confident, but too many times that means a little "cocky". Well cocky men think they are all that, and think that its wrong to not be able to share themselves with more than one woman at a time.

 

*whew*...there you go, you said not to hold back:cool:

[NoTNorMal]

I absolutely, positively, no doubt in my mind, do NOT want anything to do with a bitch at all. I'd rather go to the Burger King drive-thru in India and ask for a piece of the Dalai Lama's great-grandmother, it's just not going to happen.

[ON MY OWN]

No, don't want a b!tch, never did. not to say that if a man finds a woman that lacks the little bit of "b!tch" mixed in there as you say, that said woman won't turn out to be one anyway. But I still look to weed that part out when dating.

 

Thing is, women abroad, and in this forum, have admitted they want a "bad boy"...or at least a little bit of "bad boy"....and what comes with that isn't desirable.

 

I NEVER want anything that even closely resembles a "bad girl". First, its just not who I am, and its not something I want in a woman. And secondly I don't want all the other obvious bad traits that come with it.

 

So never will I try to hook up with, or accept an advance from, a woman that likes to party and club alot. No thanks. don't want a woman with a "tramp stamp", if you know what I mean. Don't want a woman that dresses provacatively, except in the bedroom only with me. don't want a woman who seeks attention from other men constantly(which also kind of ties in with the clubbing thing).

 

So no, don't want anything in a woman that even closely resembles what alot of women admit they look for in a man.

 

and alot of women will say that they want someone confident, but too many times that means a little "cocky". Well cocky men think they are all that, and think that its wrong to not be able to share themselves with more than one woman at a time.

 

*whew*...there you go, you said not to hold back:cool:

Appreciate the honesty!! It is hard to put it into words, but women dont necessarily all want a "bad" boy, just someone who may have a little bit of a rough exterior and kind on the inside and all about doing the right things in life and treating his woman like a queen and we can then treat them like a king!!!

[ON MY OWN]

As I am seeing in this thread is men are saying they dont like the harder attitude in general. If this IS the case, why do we see you guys bending over backwards to please someone who just cant be pleased? Not always the case, but we all know we have seen it. Whats up with that? Just curious. Any men out there who have done this care to elaborate on this?

[Trialbyfire]

As I am seeing in this thread is men are saying they dont like the harder attitude in general. If this IS the case, why do we see you guys bending over backwards to please someone who just cant be pleased? Not always the case, but we all know we have seen it. Whats up with that? Just curious. Any men out there who have done this care to elaborate on this?

Maybe the best way for you to understand this, is to look to your own situation with the genders reversed. I'm not criticizing you. Just offering a perspective that might make sense to you.

[carhill]

Any men out there who have done this care to elaborate on this?

 

Everyone has their own boundaries as to relationship balance. Some rail at even the slightest imbalance; others accept larger imbalances before hitting the wall. IMO, this isn't gender-specific. I elaborated on my personal perspective in this post in another thread. I won't change my intrinsic emotional setpoint situationally; rather, I direct it to those with whom I perceive balance within my boundaries. So, once the boundary is reached, I disconnect that person with fair warning and without prejudice. Generally, there is little/no loss to them because they cared less anyway. Remember the rule about caring less

[loveslife]

In my experience, men say they want a nice girl but what often happens is they become smitten with the mean girl "with a heart of gold." They bend over backwards trying to please her and prove that she is actually a good person. Somehow I think many men find this potentially validating to them. It's the ultimate chase.

 

Now of course I know that not all men are this way. But a lot of what I've seen is that men stay with women who browbeat them in some form or another. Heck, I've done it. In my younger days. It's part of the drama, right.

 

Sheesh. I have a friend who was married to a royal beach for 14 years. He divorced eventually, citing that she was never happy with him and didn't even seem to look forward to seeing him at the end of the day. You'd think the next girl he got involved with was someone sweet and kind who showed him she cared? Nah. Of course not.

 

There are a lot of people out there who want someone to blame their misery on and maybe seek out women who can readily take the blame. I think other men like the chase to try and win the kindness of one of these women.

 

Just my feelings/observations.

[Ariadne]

say they want a nice girl but what often happens is they become smitten with the mean girl "with a heart of gold." They bend over backwards trying to please her and prove that she is actually a good person.

 

.........

[Phateless]

We all know about the theory of women liking a "bad boy" type and nice guys finish last. Do men think they legitimately want a "nice" woman or do they prefer a little b$t$h mixed in there? Lets hear the truth about this. Dont hold back.

 

I want a nice sweet girl who has a backbone and her own independence. I do NOT want someone passive who explodes when she's had it up to here. I also do NOT want someone who is constantly "defending herself" against attacks that aren't there. Reactive and defensive over the smallest stuff is a HUGE turnoff.

 

Do some googling on "assertive communication" and you'll see what I mean.

 

A full on bitch will get dumped so fast it will make her head spin.

[loveslife]

I want a nice sweet girl who has a backbone and her own independence.

 

How would you feel about a nice, sweet girl who let you have your way most of the time (because it didn't matter to her either way) and went out of her way to do things to show you she cares?

 

Would you feel lucky to have someone who was so easy to get along with and made you feel loved or would you think she had no backbone?

[Ariadne]

How would you feel about a nice, sweet girl who let you have your way most of the time (because it didn't matter to her either way) and went out of her way to do things to show you she cares?

 

(The other problem with this, is that guys are suckers to be told what to do (otherwise they are bad bad bad). They have a weakness to be bossed around by some dominatrix of sorts, and be "made" to do this or that because they "have to". They die for that..).

[Phateless]

How would you feel about a nice, sweet girl who let you have your way most of the time (because it didn't matter to her either way) and went out of her way to do things to show you she cares?

 

Would you feel lucky to have someone who was so easy to get along with and made you feel loved or would you think she had no backbone?

 

I would love that. I would feel privileged to have a girl that's so low maintenance, PROVIDING, she doesn't use it against me later on and that she does speak up clearly and directly when she wants something.

 

I hate hearing the whole "i do so much for you so YOU SHOULD KNOW (because i'm too timid to tell you) when I want something."

 

If she cares I want her to speak up. I will always do my best to reciprocate her giving and I want her to tell me if she wants me to let her have her way.

[Trialbyfire]

I would love that. I would feel privileged to have a girl that's so low maintenance, PROVIDING, she doesn't use it against me later on and that she does speak up clearly and directly when she wants something.

 

I hate hearing the whole "i do so much for you so YOU SHOULD KNOW (because i'm too timid to tell you) when I want something."

 

If she cares I want her to speak up. I will always do my best to reciprocate her giving and I want her to tell me if she wants me to let her have her way.

Oh lord, the victim/martyr! Run, run away, since that's the type who will become the walk-away wife or cheater, due to harboured resentments!!!!!!!!!

[Phateless]

Oh lord, the victim/martyr! Run, run away, since that's the type who will become the walk-away wife or cheater, due to harboured resentments!!!!!!!!!

 

lol. Bingo.

 

As usual, TBF nails it dead-on!

[loveslife]

Oh lord, the victim/martyr! Run, run away, since that's the type who will become the walk-away wife or cheater, due to harboured resentments!!!!!!!!!

 

Do you think it's impossible for a woman to really be low maintenance? For her really to be contented enough in her own life to let the guy have his way because she just doesn't care? For her to be happy to do nice things for him?

 

Granted, none of this is really relevant if the guy is a total douchebag to her. And for some reason I think guys often end up being douchebags to the nicest girls. And then they whine that she's playing a martyr/victim, not because she doesn't want to be nice to him, but because she expected him to be nice in return.

 

And for some reason, it's considered unfair to be nice to someone and expect common courtesy and kindness in return? It's an agenda??

 

Not saying that's you TBF. I just think in our society being nice is looked down upon. I think it's considered weak and less valuable. Someone who is high maintenance supposedly knows her worth. Right?

 

I think all these discussions about nice girls and nice guys makes one thing perfectly clear to me. It's pointless to categorize people. We're all nice in some ways, not-so-nice in others. We're all unique. What might be nice to one person is not nice to another.

 

I know I like a guy who is good and kind but has what some might consider an edge. It's so individual, isn't it really.

[Phateless]

I think that's entirely possible. What I'm getting at though is what happens when she does want her way? Does she speak up in an assertive way or does she get pissy and shy and resentful?

 

A lot of people are only accommodating because they have a hard time speaking up.

[Trialbyfire]

loveslife,

 

If someone treats you like crap on a consistent basis or over-reacts with freak fits, and you keep taking it, where's the incentive to change their treatment of you? In essence, you're telling them it's okay to treat you this way, so they'll continue to do so.

 

Why not nip it in the bud by speaking up early and if they choose not to change the way they approach you, walk.

 

Understand what drives you and your approach to relationships, then set firm boundaries. Let your partner know what your boundaries are and the person who will fit with you, will be someone who respects and even admires those boundaries.

 

No one respects a doormat.

[loveslife]

I think that's entirely possible. What I'm getting at though is what happens when she does want her way? Does she speak up in an assertive way or does she get pissy and shy and resentful?

 

A lot of people are only accommodating because they have a hard time speaking up.

 

Ideally, a healthy person able to communicate in a healthy manner would speak up when she wants something contrary to what their partner wants.

 

I think I understand what you're saying. You don't want someone who will suppress what they're really thinking or feeling just to make you happy but harbor resentments and get pissed off and/or passive-aggressive. Right?

 

It's kind of insincere and manipulative in its own way. Not really "nice." Lots of strings attached to the gestures. It's stressful.

 

To me, someone who is "nice" is nice to be around. A lot of people act nice but its with an agenda which puts a lot of pressure on the other person. It's entirely different than being a nice person who just expects the other person to be nice, too.

 

But, yeah, too often "nice" people suck at open, honest communication and healthy self-esteem and are pissed at the world. I think you have to be happy inside to be genuinely nice to be around.

[loveslife]

loveslife,

 

If someone treats you like crap on a consistent basis or over-reacts with freak fits, and you keep taking it, where's the incentive to change their treatment of you? In essence, you're telling them it's okay to treat you this way, so they'll continue to do so.

 

Why not nip it in the bud by speaking up early and if they choose not to change the way they approach you, walk.

 

Understand what drives you and your approach to relationships, then set firm boundaries. Let your partner know what your boundaries are and the person who will fit with you, will be someone who respects and even admires those boundaries.

 

No one respects a doormat.

 

TBF, I think we're on the same page but not getting the communication in sync perhaps. See my previous post in response to Phateless.

[Trialbyfire]

TBF, I think we're on the same page but not getting the communication in sync perhaps. See my previous post in response to Phateless.

I agree with your post to Phateless. The part that I'd like to emphasize, is that it's less about being pushed and pulled by someone else's actions and more about how you react to stimuli, both positive and negative.

 

Sure, there are crappy people in this world but then, why would anyone stay with them? So once again, it's all about YOU!

 

p.s. All references to "you" are generic.

[Taramere]

Do you think it's impossible for a woman to really be low maintenance? For her really to be contented enough in her own life to let the guy have his way because she just doesn't care? For her to be happy to do nice things for him?

 

As long she's getting her emotional needs met elsewhere (from other men or from a support network), then probably yes. The moment she's not getting those needs met elsewhere, the chances are she'll become higher maintenance. To that extent, I think men have a point when they talk about not being the caring friend to a woman whose boyfriend is treating her poorly. As long as they're playing that role, the poor behaviour probably won't trouble her enough for her to seriously rethink the relationship with Mr Selfish. She's getting her needs met elsewhere, so does it really matter if he's a bit of a douchebag?

 

I guess the same goes for women. Men may well be attracted to the bad girl, but only so long as they have something cosy to fall back on. Once that support (female friend, long term girlfriend, understanding wife or whatever) then the bad girl probably starts looking like a bad bet.

 

Not saying that's you TBF. I just think in our society being nice is looked down upon. I think it's considered weak and less valuable.

 

I think it often is associated with lack of assertiveness, but I also agree with your point that we're all nice in some ways and less so in others. Most people I know have a varying ability to be assertive. On some days they might be strong and willing to kick up a fuss in a restaurant if they don't like the service. Other days they might be feeling more subdued, and take more of an "I can't be bothered with a scene. I'm going to let this one slide" approach.

 

Anyone who falls into either extreme (eg always kicking up a fuss, or never complaining about anything they're unhappy about) is going to be difficult to be around. Either too stressful and unpleasant, or so passive that you feel you have to second guess how they're really feeling, or pull the truth out of them like teeth.