Too nice to men?

[Ariadne]

I have to say TBF's right. Shadowplay, female friendships aren't that different from male. You get what you bring to the table, especially if we're talking about someone reasonably similar to you, with compatible values. Perhaps you just need to find those people. Or maybe people misinterpret signals you send out.

 

Not always.

 

Many times women are overly sensitive and can't take any criticism, or take things personally and get incredibly offended.

[Trialbyfire]

Not always.

 

Many times women are overly sensitive and can't take any criticism, or take things personally and get incredibly offended.

That's when you know this type of person isn't compatible to your style of friendship. It's not gender specific. Men can be just as sensitive but about different things.

 

I've noticed that you're far more brutal with women, than men. You tend to enable men.

[Ariadne]

(Or, by their nature, they twist and turn things and find the 5th leg to the cat when there is none there)

[Ariadne]

That's when you know this type of person isn't compatible to your style of friendship. It's not gender specific. Men can be just as sensitive but about different things.

 

I've noticed that you're far more brutal with women, than men. You tend to enable men.

 

Even people that are compatible and get along great, would take offense for something at some point or another and break up a friendship and not stay loyal.

[Ariadne]

I've noticed that you're far more brutal with women, than men. You tend to enable men.

 

I point out what I see anywhere, but inevitably women take offense or consider it brutal.

 

I find men to be more easy going than women in general.

[Trialbyfire]

Even people that are compatible and get along great, would take offense for something at some point or another and break up a friendship and not stay loyal.

True but that happens whether it's male or female friends. Most people have boundaries.

 

I point out what I see anywhere, but inevitably women take offense or consider it brutal.

 

I find men to be more easy going than women in general.

You tend to see the negative in women and not in men. That's not clear vision.

[Taramere]

She(he?) actually said that, I think the point was that in general a person of the same gender will tend to have more insight than a person of the opposite gender when it comes to motives and the deep internal workings of another.

 

I can't disagree.

 

I see insight as a combination of good observational skills, social awareness, sensitivity/perceptiveness and a good knowledge (both instinctive and informed by education) of human nature. Something that requires the person to be able to both be aware of and detach from their own issues and hang-ups in order to make a fair judgement of someone else.

 

Then there's the projection which leads us to make thoroughly subjective (to the point of useless) assessments of other people and their motives. "The way I think when I'm at my most negative/manipulative - only very rarely, of course - is the way other people think every day as a matter of course. The goodness in me is the real me. If there's anything negative in me it's only because I was naive enough to associate with toxic people."

 

A very insightful person who's learned high level objectivity and detachment from their own crap doubtless does have an advantage when it comes to assessing the motives of another person of the same gender. On the other hand, people will often project the aspects of themselves that they don't like too much/feel shame about onto others of the same gender. When a woman talks about preferring the company of men because she finds other women too manipulative, is that really pure and objective insight at play - or are there elements of projection? Seeing the less wholesome aspects of oneself in the behaviour of similar others? The classic example of a woman who preferred the company of men was Margaret Thatcher. I'd bet that her perceptions of other women came from projection more than they came from objective insight about her own gender.

 

Projection is such an incredibly tempting thing to do....particularly with regard to people we feel threatened by or in competition with. But the assessments that result can be badly skewed and quite destructive, depending on the sensitivities of those they target.

[Taramere]

I point out what I see anywhere, but inevitably women take offense or consider it brutal.

 

You would see women as generally being more sensitive and easily hurt by criticism. Is that perception a guiding principle in the way you interact with other women? Do you tend to make allowances for potentially higher sensitivity in women, and do a bit more eggshell treading in your dealings with them?

[Ariadne]

You would see women as generally being more sensitive and easily hurt by criticism. Is that perception a guiding principle in the way you interact with other women? Do you tend to make allowances for potentially higher sensitivity in women, and do a bit more eggshell treading in your dealings with them?

 

No, I act the same way with everybody.

[2sure]

In my experience, over the course of time and lessons - I have come to believe that Women are often emotionally stronger than men.

 

Women are often more forgiving which takes much emotional strength and even more security. They are more forgiving to their spouses, to the world in general.

 

Women use graciousness and do not feel the need to always compete. Women use hindsight in evaluating the emotions/opinions of others - having been a young woman or simply a younger adult once - it is easier for me to understand , empathize with, and not judge others who have not learned the lessons most of us eventually do. I am able to recognize righteous ignorance and while it is distasteful...I know it will be grown out of.

 

These things are not facts, but opinions I share with many people who have matured with their experiences.

[ON MY OWN]

In my experience, over the course of time and lessons - I have come to believe that Women are often emotionally stronger than men.

 

Women are often more forgiving which takes much emotional strength and even more security. They are more forgiving to their spouses, to the world in general.

 

Women use graciousness and do not feel the need to always compete. Women use hindsight in evaluating the emotions/opinions of others - having been a young woman or simply a younger adult once - it is easier for me to understand , empathize with, and not judge others who have not learned the lessons most of us eventually do. I am able to recognize righteous ignorance and while it is distasteful...I know it will be grown out of.

 

These things are not facts, but opinions I share with many people who have matured with their experiences.

Great analogy 2sure!!

[2sure]

Back to the original post:

 

Too Nice?

 

No, I dont think a man can find a woman too "nice." Not a doormat, but nice.

 

Bitchy? No, men dont like that either. Sarcasm - leave that out too (harder than you think). They may like Funny but not Sarcastic/Critical - they get that from the guys, from work, and thier Moms.

 

In my experience, men like women to be feminine - not one of the guys. Also, by the way - they seem to think that having your toes done is a good indication of this.

 

Men are pretty simple, which is nice. They want a lot less than we think...lol. The best advice , in hindsight, that I would give a woman regarding men: Stop thinking so hard. Just be nice.

[You'reasian]

You tend to see the negative in women and not in men. That's not clear vision.

 

I appreciate and respect strong women. More often than not, women project their own insecurities onto men - assuming that I think things about the gender - based on nothing tangible.

 

The qualities that make women chose men as friends are the negative qualities of some women - the whole gossip, back stabbing, overactive imagination, self-absorbed etc.

 

There are many different kinds of strong women, I just prefer the type that isn't ultra feminist.

[Trialbyfire]

I appreciate and respect strong women. More often than not' date=' women project their own insecurities onto men - assuming that I think things about the gender - based on nothing tangible.[/quote']This is a gender-neutral concept. Everyone projects, some to a greater degree, others to a lesser degree.

 

The qualities that make women chose men as friends are the negative qualities of some women - the whole gossip, back stabbing, overactive imagination, self-absorbed etc.

You're not seeing your own gender clearly and neither are the women who solely choose men for friends. The negative aspects you've illustrated, I've seen in men as well. These are personality traits v. gender traits.

 

There are many different kinds of strong women, I just prefer the type that isn't ultra feminist.

Now that's an honest statement and one I won't throw down a b/s flag on. Everyone is entitled to their preferences.

[Ariadne]

(Btw, I'm friends with women because they love to talk about all the details about relationships, and men don't like to put up with that for too long)

 

(But then, I've tired a friend or two talking about DG, eventually they get tired too)

[shadowplay]

I think you're being disingenuous about this. You're highly competitive. That's a fact.

 

While I think it's sad that you had this experience, I also think that you're barking up the wrong tree as to why, in each and every case, you were specifically targeted.

 

One thing's for certain. Being unassuming, quiet and attractive doesn't cause female friends to wander off. If anything, it's advantageous for many reasons.

 

Well, it may have differed from case to case. In my first experience, the girls bullied me relentlessly because I was shy and sensitive. They seemed to love getting me upset, and even admitted as much. I don't think there was anything about me in particular, other than the fact that I let them get away with it. I was really young at the time (11-13).

 

The other two cases I never found out what the heck I did wrong because they just stopped talking to me without ever explaining why. I had some inkling, though, with the last case. One of the girls in my group had a crush on this guy who kept rejecting her advances. I became casual friends with him because he hung out in our group and was in my biology class, but NOTHING MORE. However, she seemed to think I was involved with him or trying to seduce him even though i had no attraction to him whatsoever and made this very clear.

 

He told her at one point that he found me attractive and she flipped out. So it was actually her competitiveness and paranoia that screwed up the friendship.

 

I was crushed when my best friend in the group (another girl) allowed herself to be brainwashed by the crazy ring leader's lies.

 

I think the common thread is that I probably chose the wrong people and I let them get away with too much for too long.

 

I don't believe all women are like that, but after you're been burned a bunch of times it's hard to ever want to go back there. So, I don't think it's fair to generalize that all women who don't have female friends are competitive or messed up. That may be true in some cases, but other times it's just bad luck.

 

And some women are simply incompatible with other women in terms of interests.

 

I find I have more in common with men in my interests, so this may be why some of my female friendships fizzled. I'm more into talking about movies, music, books, while I get bored by conversations revolving around gossip, weddings and tv shows.

 

The only women I ever seem to connect with are those who are less stereotypically female.

[shadowplay]

I have to say TBF's right. Shadowplay, female friendships aren't that different from male. You get what you bring to the table, especially if we're talking about someone reasonably similar to you, with compatible values. Perhaps you just need to find those people. Or maybe people misinterpret signals you send out.

 

I realize that they are women out there like me, and I definitely see that female friendships have something special that you can't get with a mixed gender friendship. In fact, you and Spookie are two girls on LS that I can imagine being friends with in real life. As I wrote to TBF, the girls I tend to connect to with are less "girly."

 

I'm just afraid of getting burned along the way. I don't mind if girls try to initiate friendships with me, but I don't have the energy anymore to seek them out.

[shadowplay]

I totally agree.

 

I find that women who can't get along with other women and lack female friends are the same women who nit pick every detail of a woman's appearance.

 

I find that it's the opposite, that it's the very cattiness and competitiveness inherent in some female friendships that turns women away. Some women are good at playing this game and even seem to enjoy it, others are not. Women are easier to deal with when they're one on one, but they can become quite nasty in packs.

 

Many of the girls who rejected me also nitpicked my appearance to death and made me aware of every flaw on my body, while I never spoke a bad word about them (behind their backs or to their faces).

 

I realize not all women are this catty, but when you've been burned by a series of really bad experiences it becomes tempting to generalize.

[shadowplay]

I think that Ariadne makes a good point. In my female friendships, I remember misunderstandings being a recurring problem. A girl would claim I had done something I didn't do, or that something I said or did meant something that it didn't. I felt like I was always walking on egg-shells and in danger of being wrongly accused.

 

It may have to do with the fact that I'm just not very good with social cues, or that I inadvertently sent out the wrong messages.

 

Another frequent problem was that my female friends would be less direct. I could tell that they were annoyed at me about something, but they would never tell me what I had done even when I directly asked them.

 

Only later would I find out what it was from some second hand source and it usually boiled down to some trivial misunderstanding that could have been cleared up had they simply confronted me.

 

With men, you usually know where you stand. Again, not to say this is true for all men or women, but a good percentage.

[DMoon]

I find I have more in common with men in my interests, so this may be why some of my female friendships fizzled. I'm more into talking about movies, music, books, while I get bored by conversations revolving around gossip, weddings and tv shows.

 

The only women I ever seem to connect with are those who are less stereotypically female.

 

 

To interject--I am much more interested in discussing noir films, books, literature, science, culture, art, etc as opposed to weddings, reality shows, gossip, etc on a daily basis and I honestly haven’t found a great deal of men who profess or articulate a deep interest in those subjects and are able to generate interesting ideas regarding those topics. Thus , I don't think its gender specific because the average American, in general, I have found are quite anti-intellectual and can be quite insular and rather conservative in their interests. Maybe it is a cultural quirk as opposed to gender.

[RunawayTrain]

Ok, I am back on the dating scene, after me and my fiance broke up 3 months back. I am playing it differently now. I am nice, but not as sickening nice as I was before. I was always very nice, and sometimes I think ppl tend to take advantage of that. Dont get me wrong, I will stand up for myself if I need to. I have 2 men that I have been talking to and they seem to eat it up when I am not calling or they text and I dont get back always. They seem to want to chase or something. I am happy with myself and not mad at the world or anything, just an observation I have been making about the opposite sex lately. They seem to like that kind of stuff. The whole "nice" thing has not fully worked for me. To a point it has, but it always seems to bite me in the butt in the end. I am not changing who I am, however if thats what guys like that can definitely be arranged. Thanks:D

 

Congrats on being back on the dating scene. You sound like a sweet young lady and I am sure you will find happiness. Don't ever let a guy treat you like a doormat. At the first sign of disrespect, red flag high tail it out of there! The one thing I have learned as a guy and trust me I have dated bitches, witches, snitches, sweethearts, you name it is don't generalize a gender. Just because one guy or girl has one quality doesn't mean all men/women have the same qualities. I judge each particular woman on an individual basis. Like you said never change who you are and stand up for what you believe in. Every dating situation/experience is different, I have learned that. Good luck.

[shadowplay]

To interject--I am much more interested in discussing noir films, books, literature, science, culture, art, etc as opposed to weddings, reality shows, gossip, etc on a daily basis and I honestly haven’t found a great deal of men who profess or articulate a deep interest in those subjects and are able to generate interesting ideas regarding those topics. Thus , I don't think its gender specific because the average American, in general, I have found are quite anti-intellectual and can be quite insular and rather conservative in their interests. Maybe it is a cultural quirk as opposed to gender.

 

Many women who are book smart still spend a lot of their time talking about inane crap, while this is slightly less true for intelligent men.

 

I went to a competitive high school, so I was surrounded by smart people. Many of the intelligent girls in my classes were no less vapid outside of class than other girls. There was one girl in particular who was a star student, featured in national magazines for her achievements. But she was completely annoying and ditzy when you actually engaged her in conversation. It was as if she had no real curiosity outside of school. She didn't even seem to read for pleasure.

 

In college it was the same. Book smart girls, endless gossip. And it's not as if I only consider intellectual discussion interesting. In fact, most of the conversing I do isn't intellectual, but there are some topics that I really can't stomach for more than a few minutes at a time: gossip, reality tv, weddings, etc.

 

At least 2/3 of the time when I overhear conversations between young women they go something like this:

"I'm really getting tired of Jackie. She always has to be the center of attention. The other day we went to....OMG you know Devon? He is such a cool kid. Everybody loves him. He was at Jake's party last night before the cops...Derek's parents really want the wedding to be on the Hamptons, but my aunt has this awesome loft on the Cape...OMG, Jen, did I show you the cute dress I found online? I literally squealed out loud when I saw it, and my brother looked over at me like I was crazy...Ugh, she's not that pretty."

 

I may be spoiled because as a child I had an awesome girlfriend who was totally on my wavelength. We talked about everything and anything from the minutiae our lives, to musings about the world, to our likes and dislikes, to creative ideas and fantasies, to general silliness and goofiness. What we had in common is we were always observing, making fun and laughing at the world around us. We were incredibly close and spent most of our time together.

 

Despite this connection, she ended up being a mediocre friend to me. When I was bullied by the other girls in our group, she never stood up for me or even acknowledged what they were doing. Before high school she moved to China with her family. When she returned my senior year, she acted as if she didn't know me. She and her new friends completely ignored me. I was crushed, but so it goes. Now she keeps trying to reconnect with me on facebook, but I honestly don't have much interest in ever seeing her again. Some things you just can't forgive.

 

Now if only I could find that kind of connection with a friend who was also decent to me...

[Ariadne]

In my female friendships, I remember misunderstandings being a recurring problem. A girl would claim I had done something I didn't do, or that something I said or did meant something that it didn't. I felt like I was always walking on egg-shells and in danger of being wrongly accused.

 

Speaking of which...

 

My bff in college of four years no less, got upset because I joined a different group for a project and not hers.

 

I tried to explain the reasons for it, but she would not hear of it and never talked to me again.

 

Sigh.

[Taramere]

I find I have more in common with men in my interests, so this may be why some of my female friendships fizzled. I'm more into talking about movies, music, books, while I get bored by conversations revolving around gossip, weddings and tv shows.

 

The only women I ever seem to connect with are those who are less stereotypically female.

 

I've mentioned before that I think you often raise very interesting discussions on Loveshack - and I enjoy reading your posts. At the same time, I'll often get a sense of doom-like inevitability about where they'll lead. Generally towards the kind of conflict that's negative, depressing and draining rather than energising to read (and is probably draining rather than energising to participate in).

 

I must emphasise that I don't think that's a reflection on you or anyone else. It's a reflection, in my opinion, that a board like this is limited in its scope for interesting conversation about controversial subjects. In a one to one debate, it's far easier to concede good points and counterpoints made by the other person. When there's a group involved, as with message board discussions, people start becoming primarily concerned about losing face/showing that they're not to be trifled with/proving that they're the smartest in the room.

 

I'm skeptical that the majority of women genuinely find it all that stimulating to talk about hairstyles, weddings (unless it's their own wedding) or celebrities (unless they know the celebrity personally). These are safe discussions that allow people to interact in a very feminine, predictable way without much danger of conflict arising. The kind of small talk you'll have with someone you don't know very well, or with a friend when you've been having an extended heavy discussion and it's time to lighten things up a bit.

 

For a man who hates conflict, what could be better than a woman who will stick to safe subjects (girly stuff if he likes girly women, or sport if he prefers tomboys)? I think the reality is, though, that a lot of men really do enjoy conflict. They just don't enjoy the stereotypically feminine manner of handling conflict - eg either agreeing to disagree (with an unspoken "but I'll hate you until hell freezes over" aura about it) or dissecting it to the nth degree, as is my personal preference.

 

So maybe the less than nice woman ON MY OWN is referring to is simply the one who is able to enter into conflict with a bit of relish and good humour. Which I think lots of women are able to do with men, but for some reason we're far less good at doing with eachother. It's a bit of an embarrassment.

[Trialbyfire]

The more topics that women can discuss, the greater ability to interact with more people. If you narrow your interests down to three and turn your nose up at the rest, it will come through clearly.

 

It's also disingenuous to say that you dislike gossip, when posting threads about celebrity gossip, blogs and jumping in with both feet when it comes to dissing the looks of every female celebrity.

 

I wish people would own their own sense of elitism, while hiding behind the mask of a "deep thinker".