Seems like a double standard

[Gamine]

My situation is a little different, I think. My MM wants to save his "life" as he knows it, and that does include her. I was lucky that I was never with a man who suggested he didn't like her or she was terrible. They simply are the same person, both highly driven successful professionals who have made parenting two teenager "their" couple time.

 

Until DDay they lived entirely separate lives, had sex once in awhile, and filled their day timer's with meetings, events and vacation time to fill the voids. He did and does respect her, but they have not had intimacy in fact they are not sure they ever did. There life is built on other things with respect being one of them.

 

They both share a strong want/need to not see their teens come from a divorced home, and it is not the norm in their family. Both parents and the siblings have all been married forever- if they were to divorce they would be the first in the family core to do that.

 

I am just sad for them, truly sad. God, i am kinda getting trusting here and I hope to god it doesn't bite me in the ass.

 

I have mentioned I was the first Affair and I was, but when we were outed she also found out about his 10 years of going to see Dominatrix's and paid companions, she was told everything including they had been in her house, that we had had a threesome together, etc etc. Just unbelievable truth for someone to absorb after being married for 20 + years.

 

They did do the right thing, they immediately went to MC that week and they both committed ( much like they have to the children and the company) to work on their marriage.

 

But their were also many red flags from someone on the outside looking in. For one, he told her I allowed him to be himself, gave him unconditional love and that if he couldn't openly be who he was he wasn't sure he could do it as he has now experienced it. Her response was ok, we will start playing together.

 

I know that when we love someone we want to do what it takes...... BUT, I also know I never participated in anything I did not want to participate in. I had a choice, I made the conditions, restrictions and called the show. I also was open-minded to begin with. I know she means well, but even I was prepared for the dom session and I had a good understanding, I can't help but worry about how much pain it could cause her if she is participating for the wrong reasons.

 

And I also know he won't push her - he will let her find her comfort, but if she can't confidently ( and yes, you have to have confidence to have someone else- sexual or not join you in the bedroom) he will never ask.... and in a year or two when his needs are not being met he will repeat the cycle.

 

I guess as I get stronger I see what a true mess we made for each of ourselves and the true pain she will experience everyday. She knows too much as far as I am concerned, knows our trips, how much time we were together, and far too much to not question if she ever knew who her husband was.

 

In "fog" or DDay none of us were thinking right and now I feel like she will be no different than me...... that this will really start to haunt her.

 

Funny, I am much more functional now, and to the real world would truly appear to be "better".... but in fact the crazy emotions have subsided and now the mind is stronger. Not a night where I don't dream about us and it is normally about all three of us......

 

I said to him, none of us will never be the same - and that is really the truth.

 

I'm not sure if this is going to make any sense, but some men who have to be in control all of the time with responsibilities enjoy the domination thing because they are being given permission to give up control and hand it over to someone else. I saw a show on television once dealing with this subject and it showed that a majority of men with this inclination are guys who have very demanding jobs and who must always appear to be in control. By extension, this suggests emotional and psychological needs are not being met and this activity is a release. If he can heal his inner problems his compulsions may evaporate. At a very minimum, the higher profile life may not be something that is really 'true' to him.

 

To the extreme, there are guys that want to dress up in baby diapers and pretend they are going to day care where their diapers are changed and they are fed a bottle or breast fed. They frolic in a baby wading pool and have pacifiers. And, there are women who are willing to pretend to be their mommy daycare workers with a backyard filled with men in diapers and baby bonnets.

 

Trying to heal and acting out sexually. Your guy can find happiness, but it may require that he really sees himself for where he actually is in his life.

 

And as for her going along with it. I agree with you wholeheartedly. It would feel humiliating to me... my partner would know it and the whole thing wouldn't work. He probably would benefit from intense introspection and some therapy to find balance in his life and to figure out who he really is... outside of acting out.

[Sanafa]

I'm not sure if this is going to make any sense, but some men who have to be in control all of the time with responsibilities enjoy the domination thing because they are being given permission to give up control and hand it over to someone else.

Trying to heal and acting out sexually. Your guy can find happiness, but it may require that he really sees himself for where he actually is in his life.

 

And as for her going along with it. I agree with you wholeheartedly. It would feel humiliating to me... my partner would know it and the whole thing wouldn't work. He probably would benefit from intense introspection and some therapy to find balance in his life and to figure out who he really is... outside of acting out.

 

That is the truth, he wasn't extreme ( with the mommy/diaper thing) however loved giving up control and was more into feelings - flogs and minor discomfort. But yes, 100% and he shared that many times.

 

However we disagree about the other. Therapy or not.... people are who they are. We were driving home from a short road trip and my feet were up on the dash, he started laughing and showed me his excitement. I was in awe - seriously and just started laughing. He has a foot fetish but what I realized in that moment it isn't entirely choice.... his mind/chemistry and wiring are a big factor. He can't change that he finds pleasure in those elements ( and in truth much like I believe she shouldn't, I don't believe he should).

 

This is where I stumble. People want to make alternative sexual activities more than they are. I do agree that they are a result of your past but I do not believe that they have to be addressed or discarded as unhealthy.

 

He never hurt a sole in his activities, did not abuse himself or anyone else and his sexuality isn't going to change. The only thing that is possible is to bury it within himself because he is being told he must in order to....

 

We can't bury things. He did learn after are only experience with the Dom that I demystified it for him. But like I said to him then, it is because we had a solid, relationship that incorporated little things in our own world, and because we had the intimacy.

 

Now give a couple who has never had that the challenge of not only learning who each is, but also trying to incorporate and change they sexual wants and needs.... and you have more than a mountain to climb.

[Sanafa]

Thanks. Everyone, including me, cares about making themselves happy. Everyone wants to be loved and to have someone to love. Do you really think its about succeeding or winning though? Then 'winning' means not really winning anything at all. Long term relationships are funny things. My husband moved from being my hot lover to being my blood. My family. I don't see him as a guy or as a sex machine anymore. He's someone I care for and extend care to even when he isn't being sexy. This transition from being a hot lover to being someone who I've nurtured when he was throwing up, or sat by his bedside when he was sick in the hospital has nothing to do with being a hot lover. It is far from sexy. But when those things cultivate the relationship expands and perhaps morphs into something else. The hot lover was the best. I had the best time then too. But being with the whole person, not just the hot lover, changes things in time and it can be challenging to allow the feeling of 'being in love' to yield to simply 'love'. Yes, it is a loss. But there are other gains. Some see the other gains as losses.

 

Sorry Gammon... I missed this one.

 

I understand what you are saying, I really do. I also know that contrary to popular belief not all A's are only about hot love. We had more than our share of tears, and we lived as normal as we could. We seen each other sick and we seen each other stressed with work. In fact, we were truly involved in the day to day activities. The only thing I never commented on was his wife/girls. And in truth, while we discussed the girls I never believed it was my place to express my opinions..... and that wouldn't have changed had he left. The children our theirs, I listen to him talk about them and he shared what was happening with them but I never thought it was my place to but in and never would.

 

I think there are many PA that are solely based on "hotness"..... we started there for sure, but it evolved ---- and ended up being very normal and very real.

[Gamine]

That is the truth, he wasn't extreme ( with the mommy/diaper thing) however loved giving up control and was more into feelings - flogs and minor discomfort. But yes, 100% and he shared that many times.

 

However we disagree about the other. Therapy or not.... people are who they are. We were driving home from a short road trip and my feet were up on the dash, he started laughing and showed me his excitement. I was in awe - seriously and just started laughing. He has a foot fetish but what I realized in that moment it isn't entirely choice.... his mind/chemistry and wiring are a big factor. He can't change that he finds pleasure in those elements ( and in truth much like I believe she shouldn't, I don't believe he should).

 

This is where I stumble. People want to make alternative sexual activities more than they are. I do agree that they are a result of your past but I do not believe that they have to be addressed or discarded as unhealthy.

 

He never hurt a sole in his activities, did not abuse himself or anyone else and his sexuality isn't going to change. The only thing that is possible is to bury it within himself because he is being told he must in order to....

 

We can't bury things. He did learn after are only experience with the Dom that I demystified it for him. But like I said to him then, it is because we had a solid, relationship that incorporated little things in our own world, and because we had the intimacy.

 

Now give a couple who has never had that the challenge of not only learning who each is, but also trying to incorporate and change they sexual wants and needs.... and you have more than a mountain to climb.

 

Yes, but without exploring the fetishes, one does not have the benefit of knowing whether it is a sign of being broken or a sign of being whole.

 

If someone needs to give up control to feel a release they need to have a way to integrate this into their day to day life. Hiding this and releasing the control behind closed doors isn't healthy for him. Because it can signify that he is ashamed that he isn't the person (in his heart of hearts) that he projects to the world.

 

When you get right down to it, the S&M stuff isn't sex at all. It is an expression of giving up control and shame associated with so doing.

 

It feels good to him to give it up and hand his destiny over to someone else, putting them in total control. It sounds like he would benefit from having been exposed to the world because now at least he has the opportunity to heal this bifurcated part of his heart and mind.

[Sanafa]

Yes, but without exploring the fetishes, one does not have the benefit of knowing whether it is a sign of being broken or a sign of being whole.

 

If someone needs to give up control to feel a release they need to have a way to integrate this into their day to day life. Hiding this and releasing the control behind closed doors isn't healthy for him. Because it can signify that he is ashamed that he isn't the person (in his heart of hearts) that he projects to the world.

 

When you get right down to it, the S&M stuff isn't sex at all. It is an expression of giving up control and shame associated with so doing.

 

It feels good to him to give it up and hand his destiny over to someone else, putting them in total control. It sounds like he would benefit from having been exposed to the world because now at least he has the opportunity to heal this bifurcated part of his heart and mind.

 

 

I knew I liked you from the beginning:)

 

You are correct. He was ashamed, very much of who he was - to the world, a Dad, a Coach, a Husband and a successful business person who appeared to have it all.

 

And, when DDay happened we both said there was relief and for him it was being able to lay it all out there. On a plus, at least in my mind the MC/IC councilor he is seeing is not offended by fetishes and didn't see them as evil ( many still would).

 

So yes, I hope as does he that he will be able to truly come to terms with himself and you are also correct... S&M has very little to do with sex, which is very difficult for most to get their minds around.

 

I just worry about the man I know who has hidden for so many years and fear that if he believes it will be the only way to make amends he will revert, but thank you for putting a positive spin.

 

I do want them to be happy, but I really don't want either to sacrifice who they are to do that.

[Gamine]

Sorry Gammon... I missed this one.

 

I understand what you are saying, I really do. I also know that contrary to popular belief not all A's are only about hot love. We had more than our share of tears, and we lived as normal as we could. We seen each other sick and we seen each other stressed with work. In fact, we were truly involved in the day to day activities. The only thing I never commented on was his wife/girls. And in truth, while we discussed the girls I never believed it was my place to express my opinions..... and that wouldn't have changed had he left. The children our theirs, I listen to him talk about them and he shared what was happening with them but I never thought it was my place to but in and never would.

 

I think there are many PA that are solely based on "hotness"..... we started there for sure, but it evolved ---- and ended up being very normal and very real.

 

Yep, I understand. But the thing that changes it for a long term couple is the duration and the amount of time involved in doing it. I remember when we first got married, the hot sex stuff and the nurturing were melded. I enjoyed the warmth of taking care of someone and the intimacy. It initially felt like an extension of the sexual intimacy. Then the scales somehow fall out of balance. When he would travel for business during the hot stage I'd greet him hungry for him. After 15 years I greet him with warmth and clean sheets so he can feel comfortable. The newness of the excitement of him sharing himself with me. Me being his confidant. It made me feel really warm inside. Now, that newness is not the same. I, as his companion, listen to him and have become his other half. It isn't so much that what is being exchanged has changed. It is the excitement about learning about someone that has. Does this make any sense? Things become routine when they are a routine. That doesn't necessarily mean a bad thing, but when something is new it is just different.

[Sanafa]

Yep, I understand. But the thing that changes it for a long term couple is the duration and the amount of time involved in doing it. I remember when we first got married, the hot sex stuff and the nurturing were melded. I enjoyed the warmth of taking care of someone and the intimacy. It initially felt like an extension of the sexual intimacy. Then the scales somehow fall out of balance. When he would travel for business during the hot stage I'd greet him hungry for him. After 15 years I greet him with warmth and clean sheets so he can feel comfortable. The newness of the excitement of him sharing himself with me. Me being his confidant. It made me feel really warm inside. Now, that newness is not the same. I, as his companion, listen to him and have become his other half. It isn't so much that what is being exchanged has changed. It is the excitement about learning about someone that has. Does this make any sense? Things become routine when they are a routine. That doesn't necessarily mean a bad thing, but when something is new it is just different.

 

It does.... it's called growth.

 

And for many that is a positive, it's the stagnant that causes a problem. And you say something very key - Intimacy.

 

I truly believe if you have had that, it is something you can once again have.

 

My challenge....If you never had it to begin with, can you learn it?

 

I don't believe so, personally I think intimacy is partly chemistry and if that was not the base at the begin, it will be virtually impossible to create it.

[Gamine]

I knew I liked you from the beginning:)

 

You are correct. He was ashamed, very much of who he was - to the world, a Dad, a Coach, a Husband and a successful business person who appeared to have it all.

 

And, when DDay happened we both said there was relief and for him it was being able to lay it all out there. On a plus, at least in my mind the MC/IC councilor he is seeing is not offended by fetishes and didn't see them as evil ( many still would).

 

So yes, I hope as does he that he will be able to truly come to terms with himself and you are also correct... S&M has very little to do with sex, which is very difficult for most to get their minds around.

 

I just worry about the man I know who has hidden for so many years and fear that if he believes it will be the only way to make amends he will revert, but thank you for putting a positive spin.

 

I do want them to be happy, but I really don't want either to sacrifice who they are to do that.

 

It can get very tiring being perfect. I know this might sound strange but everything in life happens for a reason. There is wisdom to be found in all of this chaos. In a way while your affair has hurt yourself and others it also serves as a bridge for healing.

 

I remember hearing that trees need injury to grow. Literally, to make a tree become healthy they recommend beating chains against the trunk.

 

At least he has a chance to find himself in the light of day and while painful, his wife has a chance to understand that he is very, very tired. That he doesn't want to be perfect and he wants to be loved for who he is. His wife clearly has a plate full. It feels utterly catastrophic at first. For me it felt like something that should have been aired on the Lifetime Network.

[Sanafa]

It can get very tiring being perfect. I know this might sound strange but everything in life happens for a reason. There is wisdom to be found in all of this chaos. In a way while your affair has hurt yourself and others it also serves as a bridge for healing.

 

I remember hearing that trees need injury to grow. Literally, to make a tree become healthy they recommend beating chains against the trunk.

 

At least he has a chance to find himself in the light of day and while painful, his wife has a chance to understand that he is very, very tired. That he doesn't want to be perfect and he wants to be loved for who he is. His wife clearly has a plate full. It feels utterly catastrophic at first. For me it felt like something that should have been aired on the Lifetime Network.

 

You are correct... and I do believe that in time we will all be stronger, only real time will say what we learn and how we change

 

Having real conversations ( even online) has made me emotional this morning and there are some days right or wrong that I worry and miss him so much.

 

So having said that..... I can choose to sit in the tears this morning or hop in the shower, get some errands done and refocus.

 

A lot of pain for all, and so nice to see that even on sitting on opposite sides of the fence that can be understood.

 

Enjoy your Saturday

[Gamine]

It does.... it's called growth.

 

And for many that is a positive, it's the stagnant that causes a problem. And you say something very key - Intimacy.

 

I truly believe if you have had that, it is something you can once again have.

 

My challenge....If you never had it to begin with, can you learn it?

 

I don't believe so, personally I think intimacy is partly chemistry and if that was not the base at the begin, it will be virtually impossible to create it.

 

 

I totally agree concerning the chemistry thing. I am really weird that way. Some people can be attracted to almost anyone. You could put me in a conference room filled with 200 men and tell me that I had to 'pick one'. I could literally feel nothing... no attraction whatsoever for any single one of them. For me its something in the eyes. If their eyes are empty then all bets are off. I had dated so much that I became ambivalent after a while. I would have to talk myself into why I should continue to see someone. Their good points, and their bad points, etc... I actually believed that the thing people talk about... knowing when you meet your someone... couldn't possibly happen to me in my 30's. Don't get me wrong... I had my attractions. But it was never what people described as almost being unimaginable. I worked with my husband. Right before he was leaving his position with the company (his last day of work) he offered to take me to a play that a coworker was going to be in and throw dinner in as well. I literally fell in love with him that night. There was no building of a relationship for me to get there... I knew. It was extreme. For him too. I felt like everything in my life led up to that moment. And I felt that way throughout our marriage. That is why the affair hurt me so much.

[White Flower]

I totally agree concerning the chemistry thing. I am really weird that way. Some people can be attracted to almost anyone. You could put me in a conference room filled with 200 men and tell me that I had to 'pick one'. I could literally feel nothing... no attraction whatsoever for any single one of them. For me its something in the eyes. If their eyes are empty then all bets are off. I had dated so much that I became ambivalent after a while. I would have to talk myself into why I should continue to see someone. Their good points, and their bad points, etc... I actually believed that the thing people talk about... knowing when you meet your someone... couldn't possibly happen to me in my 30's. Don't get me wrong... I had my attractions. But it was never what people described as almost being unimaginable. I worked with my husband. Right before he was leaving his position with the company (his last day of work) he offered to take me to a play that a coworker was going to be in and throw dinner in as well. I literally fell in love with him that night. There was no building of a relationship for me to get there... I knew. It was extreme. For him too. I felt like everything in my life led up to that moment. And I felt that way throughout our marriage. That is why the affair hurt me so much.

Gamine, you and Sanafa have hit the nail on the head: chemistry.

 

I loved my H so desperately but we just had no chemistry. After all the hurt, all the counseling, and the work, sentiments, fighting for the kids it all boiled down to chemistry. We didn't have it and I began to wonder what I was fighting for.

 

MM and I had real chemistry. There was a lot of pain in letting him go because there was so much to fight for, except we had no M and no kids.

 

He had M, kids, and a very long history with his W but they have no chemistry. I feel so sorry for them.

 

I guess all I'm really trying to say is if the BS really had true chemistry with their WS I can see more than just the usual reason to fight to save the M. I've been out in the dating world recently, and real chemistry is so hard to find. If you've got, fight to keep it.

[jennie-jennie]

I've been out in the dating world recently, and real chemistry is so hard to find. If you've got, fight to keep it.

 

Which in very few words sums up why I allowed myself to become the OW and still stay as the OW.

[Gamine]

Which in very few words sums up why I allowed myself to become the OW and still stay as the OW.

 

This I can totally understand, JJ. For me though... if I felt that way about someone I absolutely COULD NOT handle it and I would have to bite my nose off to spite my face. If I found myself that madly in love with someone it would have to reciprocated, equally, or I'd be angry and hurt and probably wouldn't even take his calls.

 

I remember when I first started dating my husband. I basically knew I loved him immediately. He had been divorced a couple of years at the time and I suppose his ex-wife had radar or something and jumped back into the picture by calling him. She had remained in the house for a while following the divorce and was moving. She wanted him to spend the weekend with her cleaning out the house.

 

Of course I knew what this was... call it instinct. I looked at him square in the eyes and (I remember this precisely) said; "Look, I'm no half way gal. If you go you might as well just stay there." He looked at me completely shocked. I saw the handwriting on the wall and with the way I felt about him I wasn't going to take any crap. If he could have one foot in and one foot out it was a deal breaker because my heart was involved. Did he go? Heck no.

 

But wouldn't you know that she showed up 16 years later only too happy to engage in an 'emotional affair' with him when he flipped his lid last year? Needless to say it totally pissed me off.

 

Where my heart is concerned I am very possessive and there is no way I'd ever be able to play that game. If I didn't have emotions invested I could... but not the real deal.

[jennie-jennie]

Geez, I can't stand that kind of women. They don't want their ex until someone else got him. What's the matter with them?

[Gamine]

Geez, I can't stand that kind of women. They don't want their ex until someone else got him. What's the matter with them?

 

Yeah, I know. When I found out about their sicko crap I emailed her and basically told her I'd kick her ass. (I know, not very mature, but hey...who says I am anyway?) I never have active and enduring anger towards anyone. But that woman? I can't stand her.

[LaGazelle]

Yeah, I know. When I found out about their sicko crap I emailed her and basically told her I'd kick her ass. (I know, not very mature, but hey...who says I am anyway?) I never have active and enduring anger towards anyone. But that woman? I can't stand her.

 

Gamine, the emotion towards the OW is totally understandable. However the issue with focusing your emotions on her, is that she is dime a dozen, and you only have one husband (only one at a time anyway!). Another woman who behaves like her (let's say a former GF) could also come along, but what really matters is how your H responds.

 

Personally, I found it useful to expend as little energy and emotion as possible on the OW in our situation, and redirect it to ensuring my H addressed the flaws that caused him to bite the bait. I figured, what happened was in the past, and I couldn't change it. However, I could insist on changes to try to make sure it never happens again in the future.

 

My feeling towards the OW was a mixture of emotions, mostly "negative" but also "positive". Once I quickly worked through the negatives, I felt it served me better not to entertain them, and certainly not let my H think that he could hide behind her negatives to cover his own. I remember him telling me that the OW wanted to ruin our relationship so she could "take my place", and whilst I could see that from her comms, I never let him realise that I agreed. To me that would only serve to deflect from what we needed to focus on most of all.

 

Don't let someone who doesn't matter much get under your skin.

 

Hugs.x

[Mimolicious]

The assumption of that forgiveness and anger go hand in hand is a little skewed. Forgiveness is done for the person doing the forgiving. It is a step in the healing process. But it is only a step. It is "supposed" to be a way to release the toxins and anger that can turn a person cold.

 

Anger on the other hand has to be worked through. It comes and goes. It is also directed at the WS. They catch it privately, and in some cases publicly. With any stage of grieving(this is what happens to a BS) one can stay in that stage too long and make things worse.

 

The opportunity to work through issues with a WS is one of the ways that BS deal with their anger. The more the issues are dealt with the more the pain is released. They also get some of the poison out of their system. They hear the WS apologize (whether sincere or not) and they love the person usually. All these facts make it easier to lay somethings to rest. On the other hand they don't get this opportunity with the AP. They often times don't get the chance to talk to or get an apology. So without the option to work through issues with the AP the anger builds and in some cases residual anger toward the WS are placed on the AP.

 

 

I was well aware that Mr. Messy was the one who pursued the relationship with the OW. He alone is responsible for that act. He alone was responsible for lying to me when asked. He alone was responsible for gas lighting me. He is alone was responsible for bringing her into our home. He alone was responsible for the taking funds from our family to help support the OW. Now here is my the but.....But she alone was responsible for accepting those advances from him. She alone is responsible for trying to turn his thoughts away from his responsibilities. She alone was responsible for setting foot in my home in the first place. She alone was responsible for taking off her clothes and climbing in my bed(he didn't rape her). She alone was responsible for the bull crap that she has delivered to me and my children's lives since then.

 

 

Whenever the anger would subside toward her, she would do something to stir the embers. It is a constant job to forgive over and over. While I don't speak for all BS, but the anger directed at the AP is sometimes a result of the AP not wanting to leave the BS alone. Or even when they know the MP and BS are trying to recover, won't step out and let the MP defog. What is wrong with just saying no to the married prick(male or female) no, I don't roll that way. I won't aid in hurting another human in that way.

 

Just my thoughts on the issue

 

 

I heart you. Now there is someone with a heart.