Seems like a double standard

[Snowflower]

taylor, I'm sure you've done this in the past, but have you talked to your husband about how difficult it is for you to forgive yourself? I know you said that he forgave you quickly/easily and that you had questioned how he could do this.

 

Assuming this is true, that he did indeed completely forgive you, maybe talking to him would help you figure out this stumbling block. He might be happy to try to help you do this. Of course, it might open up some difficult conversations but it might help both of you.

 

Ask him how he was able to forgive you. He might say it was because he loved you...listen to how he responds and you might get new insight about how and why he forgave you and how you can move forward with some sense of peace.

 

It's just a suggestion. Both you and your husband were severely hurt by what happened to your marriage. Sometimes leaning on each other and helping each other heal is the best way to get through it.

 

My husband and I are trying something similar with a stumbling block in our recovery process.

 

Give yourself some credit, taylor; you are completely remorseful and it appears that you are taking what should be on the shoulders of the OM as your own fault. We are each culpable for our own actions in the disintegration of a marriage-even I have a lot of the responsibility for what happened to my marriage, even though I was the BS.

[taylor]

My WH needed to forgive himself for his role in the affair before he could objectively examine his affair partner and the role she played.

 

I believe this statement to be very true, indeed, Spark.

 

I still assign most blame to myself and very little to the OM.

 

Perhaps it's also still a little fog that needs to clear. You would think after a year....

 

The worst thought I can muster about the OM is this: What kind of a girl did he think I was that he thought he could have an affair with me..a married woman. I feel insulted, disrespected, then a little angry.

 

But then I think harder about that statement and it all sounds so ridiculous. I was no victim and if he thought I was that kind of girl, it was my own fault. I gave him all the right green lights.

 

 

 

It was only then that her halo began to slip off of her head. He had only thought of her as this wonderful damsel in distress that he would save, because he couldn't save himself at the time.

 

I think I was the female version of this.

 

He has finally allowed himself to feel anger towards her, (normal) for the manipulations she used to fuel the fantasy "soulmate" scenario.

 

To feel anger towards my OM I would have to convince myself that his intentions toward me were not honorable...that he was just interested in seizing a possible opportunity for sex from a lonely, vulnerable, married woman...and I don't want to go there.

 

Instead, I choose to believe he got emotionally involved and swept up in the moment with me...that our emotions clouded our judgement..and led us astray. I choose to believe we were in it together. How do I cast blame/anger on someone for something I was doing as well?

 

He too, only felt guilty at hurting two people for a long time.

 

Glad to hear your husband has moved beyond this point. Hopefully, I can, too.

 

Maybe as a BS, we see that dynamic more clearly and quicker than the APs. Maybe that's why we have anger directed mostly at our spouses, but certainly at the OP as well.

 

This makes alot of sense, Spark. I think it is what most BS are trying to say on this thread. I do "get" it.

 

I think it is often easier for someone outside a relationship to see a relationship for what it is, moreso than for the two involved.

 

Perhaps that's why the BS can look at the affair and see more clearly the role each of the affair partners played, better than the affair partners can see it themselves.

[taylor]

taylor, I'm sure you've done this in the past, but have you talked to your husband about how difficult it is for you to forgive yourself? I know you said that he forgave you quickly/easily and that you had questioned how he could do this..

 

Ask him how he was able to forgive you.

 

Yes, Snowflower, he is well-aware of how I keep beating myself up about it. He is frustrated by it.

 

But, it's funny. I never asked him how he was able to forgive me...or why he did so quickly.

 

I just assumed he minimized my role in it. I tried to convince him otherwise.

 

And I figured he forgave quickly to put the whole thing behind him as soon as possible. Kind of like if he didn't think about it, it never existed.

 

That is why I have this fear that it's all going to catch up with him...perhaps creep up on him. And things are going to start dawning on him...things he never took the time to think about...things he pushed out of his mind rather than give some thought to.

 

He might say it was because he loved you...listen to how he responds and you might get new insight about how and why he forgave you and how you can move forward with some sense of peace.

 

This makes alot of sense, Snowflower. I know he loves me. He wouldn't have stuck it out like he has if he didn't. Knowing the WHY may very well be what I need to hear. But I need to hear more than, "Because I love you..."

 

I guess I'm not one that believes love alone conquers all.

 

Surely there are many BS who love their WS but struggle with forgiveness. Mine didn't. I don't know why. I will have to ask. Thanks for the suggestions, Snowflower.

[Owl]

I am like your wife, Owl, a very naive and trusting person. This whole experience has made me wiser and more cautious of people and their motives.

 

Same with my wife. She's a lot more cautious and careful now than she ever was before. She never recognized the dangers before...now she does. She's a lot less naive than she was.

 

 

I was direct with both men..perhaps even a little over the top in my response to them. They were testing the waters by dipping their toe. I pretty much shoved their faces down under and drown them. Knee-jerk reaction.

 

That's a good thing...not a bad one. Most guys won't take a 'casual' brush off. They don't take a lack of response as a negative one...they take it as a positive response. The only time they back off is when they get an irrefutable, in your face 'BACK OFF!' sign.

 

 

My husband had suspicions the second the OM started making advances. He said he knew something was up in Sept. 07, which coincided with the same month the OM started pursuing.

 

I asked how he could tell. He said I started dressing nicer, taking longer in the bathroom to get ready for work, had a bounce in my step, a brighter, happier look on my face. He also noticed I would zone out during family time...off in my own little world with my own little thoughts.

 

But he did not pick up on anything before that time. He asked when the attraction started. I told him about 2 weeks after I met the OM..in March 07. He was shocked.

 

In my case I suspected that her friendship with OM was growing deeper than was good for our marriage...but hadn't honestly wanted to believe that she'd crossed some sort of line with him. In truth, I'd suspected that somehow she might have gotten to a "cybering" stage with him...I'd really not expected the first thing I'd read to be "I love you, I want us, I want to be with you".

 

I sensed the distances growing between us...her deliberately pushing me away. But didn't really pinpoint her relationship with OM as the source, until I'd caught her fighting like heck to close a chat window without allowing me to see what was in it. Not a real 'fight'...just me hovering and waiting to see her close it, and her avoiding and trying to make it look like she'd not been chatting with him. THAT was my real, final clue that she'd crossed a line with him.

 

 

This is true but it only tells half the story and makes it sound like it was all his idea and his fault which truly was not the case. I had to tell this over and over to my husband. I still don't think he believes me.

 

He might not want to believe you. He might feel that if he truly believed that you were the pursuer/dominate cause of the whole situation, he couldn't forgive/reconcile with you.

 

Let me ask you this: As objective viewers at my place of employment, who do you think my coworkers saw as the biggest culprit? Whose actions do you think they were most disgusted by? Whose actions do you think inflamed their senses more? Whose actions do you think they were most outraged by?

 

My one coworker friend...the one who said the OM was grooming me for a sexual encounter, also said, "I don't think he ever looked at you as being married. He never considered it."

 

So, Owl, whose fault is that? Who's fault is it that this OM never really saw "MARRIED" written across my forehead?

 

I've seen similar in my own work environment. Two people, one married, both clearly 'pushing the boundaries' if they'd not already been crossed.

 

I was equally disgusted with the both of them. I made a point of telling each of them (seperately) that their behavior was pretty obvious, pretty disgusting, and WAY beyond anything acceptable in the workplace. I told him that she was married, and that I thought he was a complete jerk for acting the way he was with her. He told me that she had a rough time at home...I told him it didn't matter...if she was married, he shouldn't be getting involved with her period. I let him know if I saw anything else going on in the office, it was going to HR. I let her know the same thing...she tried to deny that there was anything at all going on, and I'll told her point blank that I fully knew better, and the same comment about it going to HR.

 

They both stopped whatever it was...at least in the office...and I never asked about what happened outside of work hours.

 

But they were BOTH wrong for behaving the way that they did...EQUALLY so.

 

 

But what if there were no "ward off sign" to be seen in the first place.

 

You know, I never talked about my marriage or husband at work. I always wore my wedding ring.

 

But I worked late hours...alot of overtime...and worked at crazy times. When the boss would say, "Go home. Your husband must be wondering where you are" I would often respond, "That's OK. No one's home."

 

I'm starting to wonder if the OM picked up on comments like this and read into them. He saw these "signs" and not necessarily others, ie., the ring on my finger.

 

Well, again that does sound like intentionally 'set the stage' to let this happen. It makes your affair sound very premeditated...in no way the "just happened" kind of thing we often here.

 

Take this the right way, but perhaps in your case you DID plan this out alot more than most do?

 

I know a lot of guys who use this same tactic...they're married, but they strive like anything to minimize that when they're at work or 'out'. And it's for exactly this reason...so that it sets the stage for them to pursue an opportunity much more easily than if they were a well known 'family man".

 

I think you want to believe your wife was a lamb. And maybe she was. Only she really knows and you have far better insight into your wife than anyone here does.

 

But how do you KNOW she wasn't perhaps a little bit of a wolfette who was also out hunting?

 

You said your wife was gaming on a pre-dominantly all-male game site and she was doing it even when you weren't around.

 

Did she really love that game that much?

 

There are plenty of things a woman can do with her time besides play games with strange men on the internet.

 

If you've never played games like EQ, WoW, DAoC, etc... on the internet, you have no idea how addictive they can quickly become. Type in the words MMORPG (or EQ/WoW/etc...) and addict...see what kind of responses you get back on google. Long before she was talking with anyone, she and I had a huge issue with the number of hours she was logging in game. She was a SAHM after she lost her job...and started piling massive hours into the games.

 

I don't believe she was "hunting"...but as I said, I don't believe she was running either. She obviously enjoyed the attention of actually being a woman in game around all these guys, surely.

 

I take your point, don't take me wrong. And as I've said...she clearly played her role in this whole situation.

 

I know you are full well into recovery, Owl, and many of these questions in your mind have been long-ago resolved to where you are at peace with them.

 

It isn't my intention to open any wounds here or to enrage your senses...just curious if you ever gave these questions any thought and how you put them to rest.

 

No worries, friend!!!

[Snowflower]

 

But, it's funny. I never asked him how he was able to forgive me...or why he did so quickly.

 

I just assumed he minimized my role in it. I tried to convince him otherwise.

 

And I figured he forgave quickly to put the whole thing behind him as soon as possible. Kind of like if he didn't think about it, it never existed.

 

That is why I have this fear that it's all going to catch up with him...perhaps creep up on him. And things are going to start dawning on him...things he never took the time to think about...things he pushed out of his mind rather than give some thought to.

 

 

 

This makes alot of sense, Snowflower. I know he loves me. He wouldn't have stuck it out like he has if he didn't. Knowing the WHY may very well be what I need to hear. But I need to hear more than, "Because I love you..."

 

 

If you are concerned that your husband forgave you too quickly and you don't know how to forgive yourself...then you probably really need to have this conversation.

 

Nothing is worse for a relationship then leaving the tough things unsaid and not dealt with...boy did I learn this the hard way...and so did my husband.

 

Men tend to compartmentalize...it's how their brains are wired. Your husband might have put all his feelings about your affair into a box, forgave you and like you said, pushed it away. Whether or not any misgivings will come back at some future point for your husband is unclear. But if you talk to him about the possibility of this happening and how to prevent it, it might help both of you.

 

As for the 'whys and hows' about his forgiveness-I hope you can both really dig deep and figure this out. It will help you both--even though it might be a painful, difficult conversation. And you're absolutely right...it goes much deeper than just that he loves you. There is more to it.

 

(((Good luck!)))

[whichwayisup]

But, it's funny. I never asked him how he was able to forgive me...or why he did so quickly.

 

Because he loves you and wanted to work things out, so you two could rebuild your marriage. He feels you're worth the effort.

 

I hope one day you do forgive yourself T. Your H is a special man and he is willing to ride this out for as long as it takes, so it seems.. You are his life.

[taylor]

He might not want to believe you. He might feel that if he truly believed that you were the pursuer/dominate cause of the whole situation, he couldn't forgive/reconcile with you.

 

This could very well be, Owl.

 

Do you think BS often choose to NOT BELIEVE their spouse was the pursuer so that they CAN forgive their WS?

 

Is it OK to make peace with a past that is altered a little in your mind to make it a bit easier to accept?

 

I know as I try to reconcile what I did, reconcile what the OM did, and reconcile the whole affair, I choose what to believe and what not to believe to make it all easier to swallow...regardless of how far from the truth it is.

 

Like the question as to whether the OM was just in it for sex. I choose not to believe because it hurts too much to acknowledge this as fact. I choose to believe, instead, that he also formed an emotional attachment and was lost in the moment with me. It's easier to make peace with that.

 

I can find bits and pieces of evidence to support both claims, but in the end, I choose the latter scenario because it brings the most peace.

 

Do you think BS do the same thing?

 

 

 

I was equally disgusted with the both of them. I made a point of telling each of them (seperately) that their behavior was pretty obvious, pretty disgusting, and WAY beyond anything acceptable in the workplace. I told him that she was married, and that I thought he was a complete jerk for acting the way he was with her. He told me that she had a rough time at home...I told him it didn't matter...if she was married, he shouldn't be getting involved with her period. I let him know if I saw anything else going on in the office, it was going to HR. I let her know the same thing...she tried to deny that there was anything at all going on, and I'll told her point blank that I fully knew better, and the same comment about it going to HR.

 

We had a fellow coworker who did the same thing you did. He called the OM into the parking lot a few times and had words with him to the effect of "What the h*** are you doing, man? She's married. Wake up. And don't you know you are on the verge of losing your job because you're in her dept. more than your own? And what about *****(live-in girlfriend)? You got something good at home and you are going to blow it."

 

This same coworker also deliberately interrupted a few of our cozy break times together.

 

I have no proof, but my husband told me a man contacted him at his place of employment and told him, "You better start minding the store or someone else will." The call was anonymous, of course, but I suspect it was this man. This was about 3 weeks before D-day.

 

The OM also told me he suspected this man was passing information on to HR.

 

I was never concerned about losing my job because I never left my dept. and had excellent performance reviews. I was more concerned about the OM losing his job because he had been called into the office so many times for being in my dept. and for his production slipping.

 

In the end, I lost my job. He didn't. He was the more valuable employee as he was in production/supervision and I was technical support. HR knew if they got rid of me, the distraction would be gone and he could refocus on his work.

 

I posted here a long time ago that the OM was the one who left the job. It wasn't true. I altered this fact on purpose to protect my identity. I no longer care about that.

 

They both stopped whatever it was...at least in the office...and I never asked about what happened outside of work hours.

 

And I got fired. That pretty much ended the affair. The OM told his best friend he felt bad..that it was all his fault...and that he missed me. He later told me he wanted to continue our relationship outside work. I told him my husband had suspicions...and then he disappeared in thin air.

 

But they were BOTH wrong for behaving the way that they did...EQUALLY so.

 

Something tells me that in my case, I paid the higher price.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Take this the right way, but perhaps in your case you DID plan this out alot more than most do?

 

I don't think I did more than any woman does who finds herself attracted to a man and wants to catch his eye or wants to get close to him.

 

But it definately was not a case where he pursued and snatched me up before I realized what was happening. No...not that naive.

 

To tell you the truth, when I made the comments about working late and not being worried cuz no one was home, it never dawned on me that anyone would read into that. I was just stating fact at the time..there really was no pressure for me to get home because most of the time my husband did work 14-15 hours a day. Adding an hour or two to my 8 hours was nothing.

 

But now I can see how the OM could have taken those words and concluded that I was alone and lonely.

 

 

 

I know a lot of guys who use this same tactic...they're married, but they strive like anything to minimize that when they're at work or 'out'. And it's for exactly this reason...so that it sets the stage for them to pursue an opportunity much more easily than if they were a well known 'family man".

 

I don't think I used this as a tactic, but it is true I NEVER talked about home, husband, or marriage with anyone at work. Not because I wanted to minimize the facts, or "set a stage", but because things were so bad at home there really wasn't anything to talk about. I couldn't put on a happy face and extol the virtues of a happy family life because that wasn't the reality at home.

 

A few times I called my H from work to clear up some matter and I would get off the phone more upset than ever. The OM would watch this from afar. Twice he asked if I was OK and both times I told him I was and dropped it there. I never discussed my marriage with him..not once, even tho he offered to lend a listening ear a few times.

 

On the other hand, he talked non-stop about all his relationship troubles.

 

 

 

 

I don't believe she was "hunting"...but as I said, I don't believe she was running either. She obviously enjoyed the attention of actually being a woman in game around all these guys, surely.

 

And like your wife, I was surrounded by men at the workplace. I was the only woman there. The attention was unreal.

[taylor]

Because he loves you and wanted to work things out, so you two could rebuild your marriage. He feels you're worth the effort.

 

I hope one day you do forgive yourself T. Your H is a special man and he is willing to ride this out for as long as it takes, so it seems.. You are his life.

 

Thank you for the encouraging words, WWIU.

 

I plan on reading the forgiveness book Foreal suggested and then discussing this with my husband.

 

And FWIW, my H is my life, too.

 

We've slacked off a little in recovery, becoming somewhat complacent and not as communicative. Dangerous, I know. Time to change that.

 

Thank you to all who have helped me so much on this thread.

 

And apologies for one major TJ. I truly did not intend or expect this thread to turn personal. Again, apologies.

[Snowflower]

 

Do you think BS often choose to NOT BELIEVE their spouse was the pursuer so that they CAN forgive their WS?

 

Is it OK to make peace with a past that is altered a little in your mind to make it a bit easier to accept?

 

I know as I try to reconcile what I did, reconcile what the OM did, and reconcile the whole affair, I choose what to believe and what not to believe to make it all easier to swallow...regardless of how far from the truth it is.

 

Like the question as to whether the OM was just in it for sex. I choose not to believe because it hurts too much to acknowledge this as fact. I choose to believe, instead, that he also formed an emotional attachment and was lost in the moment with me. It's easier to make peace with that.

 

I can find bits and pieces of evidence to support both claims, but in the end, I choose the latter scenario because it brings the most peace.

 

Do you think BS do the same thing?

 

 

As a BS, I think you are partially correct, taylor.

 

Like I have said, I had to understand why/how my husband could do what he did. And over the last 8 months of our recovery-I have learned why.

 

But it really didn't have to do with the OW. In fact, I figured this out pretty early on. I do think she was the pursuer to some degree-I think she 'liked' my husband-he knew this and at a very bad time in our marriage in bad circumstances he succumbed.

 

But that really isn't the issue-it makes me sick that he gave in to her pursuit...but that's on him, not her.

 

Instead of putting the onus on the OW, I re-analyzed other things that happened in my mind a little bit to allow myself to forgive my husband. Not sure if that makes sense...

[Gamine]

I was reading Taylor's post referenced above and it got me thinking. Instead of minimizing his actions I totally villainized them. At the onset he was most certainly not babied in any way and I took the full force of it... perhaps even worse than the reality. His attempts to play it down fell on deaf ear. I was not someone interested in finding a way out of facing the truth. I wanted the truth and it angered me that I initially received the standard affair 'disclaimers'. I wasn't willing to find a 'safe zone'. If I was living in a war zone I wanted to know the truth. So, if anything, I came at him constantly regarding his disclaimers. So, no. Not all BS's want a way out of the horror of the reality. I need to know who the heck I'm married to and where he's been.

[bentnotbroken]

I needed the truth to survive my own imagination. I needed to face every small fact no matter how insignificant it seemed. It was the best thing I could have done. It gave me the strength I needed to change my live and to really look at myself. For me the mess wasn't worth anymore time, but I have seen others build new marriages. Not try to rebuild the old relationship, but start from scratch, make a whole new life with each other. New beginnings are a beautiful thing...Taylor start new with your H. Start by letting God do his job and you let it go and hold onto your H.

[taylor]

As a BS, I think you are partially correct, taylor.

 

Like I have said, I had to understand why/how my husband could do what he did. And over the last 8 months of our recovery-I have learned why.

 

But it really didn't have to do with the OW. In fact, I figured this out pretty early on. I do think she was the pursuer to some degree-I think she 'liked' my husband-he knew this and at a very bad time in our marriage in bad circumstances he succumbed.

 

But that really isn't the issue-it makes me sick that he gave in to her pursuit...but that's on him, not her.

 

Instead of putting the onus on the OW, I re-analyzed other things that happened in my mind a little bit to allow myself to forgive my husband. Not sure if that makes sense...

 

Snowflower,

 

I think you are one of the most patient, level-headed BS on this forum.

 

Not patient meaning you let your husband "slide" or get away with what he has done.

 

But patient meaning you have taken the time to really examine the affair for what it was..no excuses, no justifications, no clouded emotions. You explored the whys and hows. You looked at the state of your marriage and found things amiss that weakened it enough to allow an affair to permeate it. And you were able to look at your husband not as HUSBAND, but as HUMAN BEING, to understand how a person could conceivably make such an awful judgement call.

 

The way you summed up your husband's affair makes alot of sense to me. I think that is how many affairs are created. Two people in rocky marriages or generally unhappy/lost/confused...they meet and they like each other...one pushes the relationship further and the other lets it happen...and for the moment and in that moment they find a way to feel good about themselves.I don't think most affair partners really think beyond that. Some talk about "the future" but I think most just live in the moment and savor how the relationship makes them feel.

 

I think this is how my affair was created as well. As one poster said, it really doesn't matter that much who was the pursuer. In the end both participated in something that benefitted them, but devastated an unsuspecting, innocent BS.

 

After sleeping on it, I can see clearly now how BS can blame both WS and AP equally for an affair.

 

As a WS, though, it can be difficult to assign blame to the AP, as it has been in my case. I think the main reason why is because it IS hard for a WS to cast blame on an AP for what he/she did when the WS was doing the same thing.

 

It brings this to mind: Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

 

A WS can't cast stones at the AP because the WS is guilty of the same sin.

 

But a BS can, since the BS is innocent.

 

I think any WS who blames his OW/OM for the affair is a hypocrite and is doing so to shirk responsibility, to minimize their wrongdoing, and to avoid being held accountable.

 

By the same token, I believe OW/OM have no right to blame the MM/MW for the affair and if they do they are also hypocrites trying to shirk responsibility, minimize their wrongdoing, and avoid being held accountable.

 

They are both to blame but have no business pointing fingers at each other.

 

The finger pointing is reserved for the BS..the only innocent.

 

******

 

I am glad you did not forgive your husband instantaneously, but took time to find real reasons in your heart to forgive him. I think that provides you and him with a more genuine, sustainable forgiveness.

 

And I am glad you did not dump all the blame on the OP, either, in an effort to minimize his role in the affair so that it would make it easier to forgive him. You were able to see his "sin" for what it was..and still forgive him for it.

[bentnotbroken]

Taylor, I am glad that you posted again. I was really concerned for you last night. You seemed to be in an internal battle. Your confusion and willingness to hold yourself accountable for all the actions, not just yours, involved in the A. I am concerned also for your healing.

[taylor]

Taylor, I am glad that you posted again. I was really concerned for you last night. You seemed to be in an internal battle. Your confusion and willingness to hold yourself accountable for all the actions, not just yours, involved in the A. I am concerned also for your healing.

 

Thank you for your concern, bnb.

 

I am in a much better place today, thanks to you and all who responded on this thread yesterday.

 

It gave me alot of food for thought. Some new perspectives to explore.

But mostly a way to dig a little deeper into myself and into my marriage to find answers and hopefully some resolve and some peace.

 

I especially want to thank you for reminding me who it is I truly need to lean on for healing. I prayed last night for the first time in a long, long time. It was weak and timid, and at times jumbled, but I know He heard and understands.

 

I know that every day the sun comes up is a blessing and a brand new opportunity to heal and move forward. I won't waste it.

 

The gym, IC appt., book on forgiveness, and a nice candlelight dinner for a hard-working husband...all on my to-do list today.

 

A good day to you, bnb, and again, much appreciation.

[bentnotbroken]

Thank you for your concern, bnb.

 

I am in a much better place today, thanks to you and all who responded on this thread yesterday.

 

It gave me alot of food for thought. Some new perspectives to explore.

But mostly a way to dig a little deeper into myself and into my marriage to find answers and hopefully some resolve and some peace.

 

I especially want to thank you for reminding me who it is I truly need to lean on for healing. I prayed last night for the first time in a long, long time. It was weak and timid, and at times jumbled, but I know He heard and understands.

 

I know that every day the sun comes up is a blessing and a brand new opportunity to heal and move forward. I won't waste it.

 

The gym, IC appt., book on forgiveness, and a nice candlelight dinner for a hard-working husband...all on my to-do list today.

 

A good day to you, bnb, and again, much appreciation.

 

 

I had the "warrior women" pray for you too. With them, I have come a long way. I knew they would help you too. We will continue and yes, God heard you, he never left you. He was just waiting for you notice he was still there. Been there done that, got a t-shirt. It won't be easy, but I do believe you are strong enough to fight through and I am here. You can pm me if you feel more comfortable. Have a blessed day. Off to do the mommy thang.

[Snowflower]

Snowflower,

 

I think you are one of the most patient, level-headed BS on this forum.

 

Not patient meaning you let your husband "slide" or get away with what he has done.

 

But patient meaning you have taken the time to really examine the affair for what it was..no excuses, no justifications, no clouded emotions. You explored the whys and hows. You looked at the state of your marriage and found things amiss that weakened it enough to allow an affair to permeate it. And you were able to look at your husband not as HUSBAND, but as HUMAN BEING, to understand how a person could conceivably make such an awful judgement call.

 

 

******

 

I am glad you did not forgive your husband instantaneously, but took time to find real reasons in your heart to forgive him. I think that provides you and him with a more genuine, sustainable forgiveness.

 

And I am glad you did not dump all the blame on the OP, either, in an effort to minimize his role in the affair so that it would make it easier to forgive him. You were able to see his "sin" for what it was..and still forgive him for it.

 

Wow, thank you taylor for this really kind post. It was just so...nice and just what I needed today.

 

Sometimes, after posting a lot on LS in one day, I feel pretty emotionally drained...yesterday was one of those days. It's also been a tough week because August marks one year since things went so wrong for my husband and me-although I didn't know the truth until almost December. I wasn't one of those BS who was completely floored by their spouse's affair...I knew my marriage had been in serious trouble for months, I just didn't know why.

 

Being able to forgive didn't come easily to me-I was raised to hold grudges and sit in judgement rather than forgive. It was something I had to work through and really reach deep within my soul to figure out how to do this. I realized that I would never be able to love my husband as he deserved without forgiving him.

 

I also processed my thoughts and feelings about the affair for months, almost obsessively. I had to 'understand' what went wrong, how it could happen, etc. And you're right, I looked at my husband as a person with flaws and good traits too, rather than as my husband who had seriously dishonored me.

 

I'm also glad to hear that YOU are feeling better today as well, taylor. I was thinking of you and hoping that you were doing okay. I think you have a really good heart and have tried so hard to figure out what went so wrong in your marriage to allow, like you say, an affair to permeate it.

 

I hope you have a nice evening with your husband; it sounds like you and your husband are a very special couple.

[silktricks]

I was reading Taylor's post referenced above and it got me thinking. Instead of minimizing his actions I totally villainized them. At the onset he was most certainly not babied in any way and I took the full force of it... perhaps even worse than the reality. His attempts to play it down fell on deaf ear. I was not someone interested in finding a way out of facing the truth. I wanted the truth and it angered me that I initially received the standard affair 'disclaimers'. I wasn't willing to find a 'safe zone'. If I was living in a war zone I wanted to know the truth. So, if anything, I came at him constantly regarding his disclaimers. So, no. Not all BS's want a way out of the horror of the reality. I need to know who the heck I'm married to and where he's been.

 

Gamine - you sound just like me. I am always striving to live IN reality, not escape from it. I didn't want to hear the easy words - they only made me angry. I wanted the truth, and it wasn't until I was certain I had the truth that I could actually begin to heal - or allow him to either, to be honest, as I kept tearing off the scabs.

[silktricks]

 

After sleeping on it, I can see clearly now how BS can blame both WS and AP equally for an affair.

 

As a WS, though, it can be difficult to assign blame to the AP, as it has been in my case. I think the main reason why is because it IS hard for a WS to cast blame on an AP for what he/she did when the WS was doing the same thing.

 

It brings this to mind: Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

 

A WS can't cast stones at the AP because the WS is guilty of the same sin.

 

But a BS can, since the BS is innocent.

 

I think any WS who blames his OW/OM for the affair is a hypocrite and is doing so to shirk responsibility, to minimize their wrongdoing, and to avoid being held accountable.

 

By the same token, I believe OW/OM have no right to blame the MM/MW for the affair and if they do they are also hypocrites trying to shirk responsibility, minimize their wrongdoing, and avoid being held accountable.

 

They are both to blame but have no business pointing fingers at each other.

 

It's interesting to see you post this - and much appreciated, at least by this particular BS.

 

One of the problems that many BS have with most OW/OM is that they want to take no responsibility at all for the affair, and blame it totally upon the MM/MW.

 

Most/many MM/MW want to put total blame on the BS - because (according to them) the problems in the marriage were the fault of the BS. IMO, the BS usually does have equal responsibility for the problems in the marriage prior to the affair. The MP though, when they choose to have an affair rather than work on the marital problems cannot then have the luxury of saying they have the affair because of those marital problems they are refusing to work on. (Does that make sense?)

[White Flower]

It's interesting to see you post this - and much appreciated, at least by this particular BS.

 

One of the problems that many BS have with most OW/OM is that they want to take no responsibility at all for the affair, and blame it totally upon the MM/MW.

 

Most/many MM/MW want to put total blame on the BS - because (according to them) the problems in the marriage were the fault of the BS. IMO, the BS usually does have equal responsibility for the problems in the marriage prior to the affair. The MP though, when they choose to have an affair rather than work on the marital problems cannot then have the luxury of saying they have the affair because of those marital problems they are refusing to work on. (Does that make sense?)

I think you make perfect sense. ExMM would complain about little mundane things and after a while I could recognize that his W was a really good person. Sure, everyone has bad days or can be controlling but he never referred to anything that seemed outrageous. In time, I could see that there were really no problems in the M except that maybe he M too young and chose the wrong person (for him). After so many years and close to retirement, why change the status quo? They'd made it this far and they were pretty kind to each other. It is sad that she'll never know the truth-that he only sees her as a sister or a close friend but he's probably right, at her age how would she find anyone? Even though I think she looks pretty darn good the stats say it's difficult. At any rate, his cheating had nothing to do with it being his W's fault. The fault was his own.

[Sanafa]

Gammon,

 

I truly do wish you peace. Sorry everyone if I came off as harsh against the BS's yesterday.... I wasn't feeling negative towards the BS at all.

 

What is happening is I am starting to get my senses back... and funny enough early on after DDay I said to MM.... I love you enough to let you go, and you have promise that you will work on the marriage but if you cannot give your W the same love and acceptance you have shown me, you have to be strong enough to let her go, she deserves the same.

 

That is just where I am and in truth where I have always sat ( long before being the OW). Life is so precious and love is a gift. I wasn't saying it to him to get him back or hope for failure... I really wasn't. I think everyone deserves happiness and in my situation knowing all I know she is aware of, I just don't see her being happy. I see her beating herself up, trying to work on the marriage with new conditions of accepting him and I simply see pain for both.

 

It got me frustrated...... so often people will truly continue to hurt each other in order to succeed or win.... and I just don't wish that on anyone.

[MWC_LifeBeginsAt40]

Gammon,

 

I truly do wish you peace. Sorry everyone if I came off as harsh against the BS's yesterday.... I wasn't feeling negative towards the BS at all.

 

What is happening is I am starting to get my senses back... and funny enough early on after DDay I said to MM.... I love you enough to let you go, and you have promise that you will work on the marriage but if you cannot give your W the same love and acceptance you have shown me, you have to be strong enough to let her go, she deserves the same.

 

That is just where I am and in truth where I have always sat ( long before being the OW). Life is so precious and love is a gift. I wasn't saying it to him to get him back or hope for failure... I really wasn't. I think everyone deserves happiness and in my situation knowing all I know she is aware of, I just don't see her being happy. I see her beating herself up, trying to work on the marriage with new conditions of accepting him and I simply see pain for both.

It got me frustrated...... so often people will truly continue to hurt each other in order to succeed or win.... and I just don't wish that on anyone.

 

 

Wow I could have typed this myself. Exact same situation here. xMM knows the passion we shared would never be found with his W as long as he doesn't come clean, and he won't. It is easier for me to move on now that W exists in my conscience, and she has done nothing wrong, and knowing how he is acting is not very attractive.

 

She is fighting hard for their marriage and he is continuing with the apathy and only talking when she starts the conversation, avoiding negatives, and trying to keep the peace. She cries for hours each day knowing he is at the office with me. Her friends tell her to get out. His friends tell him to get out.

 

She deserves to be happy, and is beating herself up day after day after day. He needs to start contributing to the marriage again. He says he can't give her any reassurance right now, but by saying it that way, he gives her a tiny scrap of hope. Maybe they will get there, slowly. I am still trying to keep my distance at work and we are completely NC outside of work now.

 

I honestly admire some of the things she has said, kicking him in the a$$. It makes me think back to my M and how neither of us fought for it. She really is doing all the right things, except following through on her threats to leave. I honestly don't think he would beg her to stay... He has made comments that he dreads the drive home from work, and imagines finding a note and her gone, and says he would be okay with that, relieved.

[Gamine]

Wow I could have typed this myself. Exact same situation here. xMM knows the passion we shared would never be found with his W as long as he doesn't come clean, and he won't. It is easier for me to move on now that W exists in my conscience, and she has done nothing wrong, and knowing how he is acting is not very attractive.

 

She is fighting hard for their marriage and he is continuing with the apathy and only talking when she starts the conversation, avoiding negatives, and trying to keep the peace. She cries for hours each day knowing he is at the office with me. Her friends tell her to get out. His friends tell him to get out.

 

She deserves to be happy, and is beating herself up day after day after day. He needs to start contributing to the marriage again. He says he can't give her any reassurance right now, but by saying it that way, he gives her a tiny scrap of hope. Maybe they will get there, slowly. I am still trying to keep my distance at work and we are completely NC outside of work now.

 

I honestly admire some of the things she has said, kicking him in the a$$. It makes me think back to my M and how neither of us fought for it. She really is doing all the right things, except following through on her threats to leave. I honestly don't think he would beg her to stay... He has made comments that he dreads the drive home from work, and imagines finding a note and her gone, and says he would be okay with that, relieved.

 

 

To me that makes this man a mean coward. I can be an impetuous and willful person, but I am incapable of being downright mean. It sounds to me that breaking it off with this guy was a wise decision. Because if he could be so mean to her that implies, by extension, that he could be as manipulative to everyone in his path. Using and taking from situations in a disingenuous way, treating everyone according to their usefulness to him. He gets 2 thumbs down and a Yuck.

[Gamine]

Gammon,

 

I truly do wish you peace. Sorry everyone if I came off as harsh against the BS's yesterday.... I wasn't feeling negative towards the BS at all.

 

What is happening is I am starting to get my senses back... and funny enough early on after DDay I said to MM.... I love you enough to let you go, and you have promise that you will work on the marriage but if you cannot give your W the same love and acceptance you have shown me, you have to be strong enough to let her go, she deserves the same.

 

That is just where I am and in truth where I have always sat ( long before being the OW). Life is so precious and love is a gift. I wasn't saying it to him to get him back or hope for failure... I really wasn't. I think everyone deserves happiness and in my situation knowing all I know she is aware of, I just don't see her being happy. I see her beating herself up, trying to work on the marriage with new conditions of accepting him and I simply see pain for both.

 

It got me frustrated...... so often people will truly continue to hurt each other in order to succeed or win.... and I just don't wish that on anyone.

 

 

Thanks. Everyone, including me, cares about making themselves happy. Everyone wants to be loved and to have someone to love. Do you really think its about succeeding or winning though? Then 'winning' means not really winning anything at all. Long term relationships are funny things. My husband moved from being my hot lover to being my blood. My family. I don't see him as a guy or as a sex machine anymore. He's someone I care for and extend care to even when he isn't being sexy. This transition from being a hot lover to being someone who I've nurtured when he was throwing up, or sat by his bedside when he was sick in the hospital has nothing to do with being a hot lover. It is far from sexy. But when those things cultivate the relationship expands and perhaps morphs into something else. The hot lover was the best. I had the best time then too. But being with the whole person, not just the hot lover, changes things in time and it can be challenging to allow the feeling of 'being in love' to yield to simply 'love'. Yes, it is a loss. But there are other gains. Some see the other gains as losses.

[Sanafa]

My situation is a little different, I think. My MM wants to save his "life" as he knows it, and that does include her. I was lucky that I was never with a man who suggested he didn't like her or she was terrible. They simply are the same person, both highly driven successful professionals who have made parenting two teenager "their" couple time.

 

Until DDay they lived entirely separate lives, had sex once in awhile, and filled their day timer's with meetings, events and vacation time to fill the voids. He did and does respect her, but they have not had intimacy in fact they are not sure they ever did. There life is built on other things with respect being one of them.

 

They both share a strong want/need to not see their teens come from a divorced home, and it is not the norm in their family. Both parents and the siblings have all been married forever- if they were to divorce they would be the first in the family core to do that.

 

I am just sad for them, truly sad. God, i am kinda getting trusting here and I hope to god it doesn't bite me in the ass.

 

I have mentioned I was the first Affair and I was, but when we were outed she also found out about his 10 years of going to see Dominatrix's and paid companions, she was told everything including they had been in her house, that we had had a threesome together, etc etc. Just unbelievable truth for someone to absorb after being married for 20 + years.

 

They did do the right thing, they immediately went to MC that week and they both committed ( much like they have to the children and the company) to work on their marriage.

 

But their were also many red flags from someone on the outside looking in. For one, he told her I allowed him to be himself, gave him unconditional love and that if he couldn't openly be who he was he wasn't sure he could do it as he has now experienced it. Her response was ok, we will start playing together.

 

I know that when we love someone we want to do what it takes...... BUT, I also know I never participated in anything I did not want to participate in. I had a choice, I made the conditions, restrictions and called the show. I also was open-minded to begin with. I know she means well, but even I was prepared for the dom session and I had a good understanding, I can't help but worry about how much pain it could cause her if she is participating for the wrong reasons.

 

And I also know he won't push her - he will let her find her comfort, but if she can't confidently ( and yes, you have to have confidence to have someone else- sexual or not join you in the bedroom) he will never ask.... and in a year or two when his needs are not being met he will repeat the cycle.

 

I guess as I get stronger I see what a true mess we made for each of ourselves and the true pain she will experience everyday. She knows too much as far as I am concerned, knows our trips, how much time we were together, and far too much to not question if she ever knew who her husband was.

 

In "fog" or DDay none of us were thinking right and now I feel like she will be no different than me...... that this will really start to haunt her.

 

Funny, I am much more functional now, and to the real world would truly appear to be "better".... but in fact the crazy emotions have subsided and now the mind is stronger. Not a night where I don't dream about us and it is normally about all three of us......

 

I said to him, none of us will never be the same - and that is really the truth.

[Gamine]

Gamine - you sound just like me. I am always striving to live IN reality, not escape from it. I didn't want to hear the easy words - they only made me angry. I wanted the truth, and it wasn't until I was certain I had the truth that I could actually begin to heal - or allow him to either, to be honest, as I kept tearing off the scabs.

 

 

I found myself feeling really sad the other day because I was cleaning out the attic and going through remnants of our life together over the many years. I'm harder on myself than him. Not that I am blaming myself for the crap, but blaming myself for being so stupid and letting myself get so hurt. If I could be so dumb and couldn't protect myself from this kind of hurt then I am an idiot. That is all I could feel. Being made a fool of for believing in someone. Being made of fool of for seeing the best in someone.

 

Coming across papers, photos, old lamps. A whole life that I thought was genuine. I know from him what he proclaims is his heart's desire. Perhaps he was screwed up or perhaps he had forgotten what mattered to him until he was going to lose it.

 

He golfed with a whole bunch of middle aged guys. Some were good husbands and others were sleaze balls. Keeping the 'wife' to take care of their homes and make them Thanksgiving dinner, and hiring hookers and 'keeping' women in other destinations. Men like this aren't men. They are self indulgent children with issues and a very deep mean streak. Some of them in their 60's hiring 20 year old call girls. That doesn't come off as virile. It seems like an old lion who can't get anyone to mate with them unless they pay them to. And then live in the self created and costly delusion that they are truly desired and wanted. Very sad.